New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Izzie]

Why, if there is upset within the family having the website change on the stroke of midnight really does just seem to be rubbing salt in the wounds. One would think there are bigger issues for the Communication Team to focus on.

Agreed. It is careless and unprofessional. Any communications team with an ounce of intelligence and forethought would be aware enough to know that this issue has caused international backlash in all directions and would make the effort to know when to push the send button and not a second before it was needed. This is not an inadvertent glitch in the system...someone had to physically go into the website and make those changes (that IMO were unnecessary to begin with). Also, who approved it? I doubt some low level clerk went rogue.

They really need to re-evaluate that communications department.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

From the screencaps of the premature update, it seems that Prince Joachim's children will continue to have their own pages on the website of the royal house. I think removing their pages would have been more appropriate to their new status as mostly private citizens - even Count Ingolf does not have his own page despite being a former king-in-waiting.

Shows again how this is simply being seen as a professional matter rather than a family one. A really careless mistake.

Why, if there is upset within the family having the website change on the stroke of midnight really does just seem to be rubbing salt in the wounds. One would think there are bigger issues for the Communication Team to focus on.

I'm afraid I don't follow.

Even if the queen and her family had communicated flawlessly and announced the change with the enthusiastic cooperation of all family members, surely updating the website would have remained a staff matter, not a family matter.

Would it be more tactful to continue listing the titles (incorrectly) on the official website for some period after they have expired? (And for how long?) I don't believe it would alleviate the upset of Prince Joachim and his family - perhaps postponing the actual loss of titles would, but not mere foot-dragging with the site update. If the change goes into effect on January 1 as planned, then it is a matter of factual accuracy to display the correct titles on January 1.

I have not noticed any indications that the communications staff is neglecting larger issues for the sake of this update (please correct me if I am wrong).

Technical difficulties happen. A professional website takes time to change. That it was available live was an error but they need it ready sooner rather than later.

I agree. I find the punctual approach of the Danish court's web team much preferable to the website of the British court, which often takes months or years to update important events.

Those criticizing the Danish court as unprofessional might note that at least they did not prematurely go live with an announcement that the heir to the throne would be named Ulrika Marianne Annika David.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-february-23-2012-a-32648-20.html#post1375033

 

[tommy100]

But it goes back to the whole issue of removing the titles itself IMO - it looks pretty petty and unnecessary, as does changing the website asap. In my opinion.

 

[Izzie]

But it goes back to the whole issue of removing the titles itself IMO - it looks pretty petty and unnecessary, as does changing the website asap. In my opinion.

I continue to agree with you...even if we seem to be in the minority.

And given that the four affected individuals will continue to be in the line of succession as per the surprise announcement of the taking their titles away, why would they not continue to have pages on the website? Yet another thing that makes absolutely zero sense...so they are supposedly losing their titles to have more freedom...yet they are still in the line of succession? So what is the point of removing the titles in the first place?

And no one is saying that the website should not be updated (sadly, it has to be)...However, maybe they should make sure the updates appear on the date the change actually takes effect, which is January 1, 2023....not December 28th, 2022. It was careless to not ensure this was done properly given the circumstances. The optics sure aren't great.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But it goes back to the whole issue of removing the titles itself IMO - it looks pretty petty and unnecessary, as does changing the website asap. In my opinion.

I continue to agree with you...even if we seem to be in the minority.

I understand the arguments against the removal itself, even if I do not fully agree with every one of them (and, on a side note, think the fact that they were already expected to lose their titles upon marriage is relevant). What I am admittedly having difficulty understanding is, if the titles are removed as planned, why it would be (more) "petty and unnecessary" to update the website on the actual date of the change, as opposed to continuing to list Nikolai et al as princes for some unspecified period (again, I am curious about how long the update should be put off - a day? week? month?) after they are no longer princes in actuality.

I'm not sure the majority of the population even has an opinion on the issue of the timing of royal website updates, but if the update is postponed past the date of the actual removal, it would not surprise me if at least a minority of readers criticized the web team for being unprofessional because of their lateness. Perhaps some would even question how important the title change could possibly be, if it was not urgent enough to update the website to reflect it.

And given that the four affected individuals will continue to be in the line of succession as per the surprise announcement of the taking their titles away, why would they not continue to have pages on the website? Yet another thing that makes absolutely zero sense...so they are supposedly losing their titles to have more freedom...yet they are still in the line of succession? So what is the point of removing the titles in the first place?

I agree that it is an inconsistency. But under the Act of Succession, the Queen does not have the authority to unilaterally remove them from the line of succession to the crown - except if and when they marry, by withholding her official consent to their marriage (as happened with her cousins, who were in the same position as Joachim's children).

It would be more consistent, and therefore my preference, to remove the titles and succession rights together at marriage, following the past precedent and what Countess Alexandra said was originally expected. However, as I explained in previous posts, I think there are understandable reasons of optics why the Queen might not want to take that course in this day and age.

 

[Muhler]

I think it was just an end-of-shift mistake. Things like that happens, but just pretty unfortunate with this particular topic.

And combined with the statements that there really haven't been any dialogue between Joachim and QMII (and Frederik as well, it appears) since the whole affair erupted. As well as the very odd positioning and focus of people in the new portraits, it really was pretty unfortunate.

From listening to the word on the streets I have the impression, that Joachim, not so much Alexandra, but Joachim do get quite a lot of sympathy.
That is probably something to do with Joachim being QMII's son, so you'd think he'd be treated more considerate. While Alexandra went to the press - and is an ex-wife. As well as Joachim reacting in a very emotional way when the journalist approached him.
But what does seem to perplex people is why they simply don't sit down and talk this out.
- All that is very much in line with my own thinking.

However the mood seems to be changing in regards to stripping Joachim's children of their titles. The opinion being: As long as they don't get an apanage their titles really don't mean that much. So perhaps a better arrangement could be found.
- That is something I don't agree with. We can't have too many royals running around, of which some of them will inevitably get themselves into trouble at some point. better to keep the numbers down to working royals IMO.

But back to the matter at hand. If the DRF had hired a PR agency and told them to handle this in the worst possible way, they could hardly do a worse job.
It's really poor. And that is reflected on the unusually harsh comments on Instagram regarding the portraits.
Of course QMII may be reluctant to tell the photographer to redo the editing. Or simply redo the whole shoot. Something about artistic freedom. But the poor setup, simply reinforced the very common public impression that J&M are fading away in the background.

To that I should add that from comments (I haven't seen any of the yearly DRF reviews this year, but the title-affair has been high on the agenda for all of them, I understand) I have read, heard from commentators and ordinary people as well is that this is annoying.
I.e. there is a more or less collective public call saying: Fix it!
We like our royals to have a good image, that's no secret(!) and this is an annoying scratch on that otherwise fairly good image. - Reflects badly on the tribe/village.

Not to mention that no one I know of, and that very much includes me, can understand what on earth is going on.

-------

So why are they not talking?
Or at least why can't they even agree on saying that they are resolving this?

The logic and obvious answer to that is that either:
They are in a deadlock. That is, sitting in opposite corners with the back to each other, fingers jammed into their ears while going La-la-la-la. In that case a mediator is need, whoever that may be. The most likely candidate being Frederik.

Or someone refuse to listen to advise and believe there really is nothing to discuss and who is stubborn enough to dismiss the damage to image of the DRF. - The finger here points to QMII, because she sure can be stubborn! (Runs deeply in the family BTW!)
And unless Frederik genuinely wholeheartedly agree with QMII in how this was handled, he has a problem. He can try and use his position to try and resolve this or at least get QMII and Joachim to at least talk this out. That would be common courtesy IMO. But he can't say anything out loud in public. Not even a hint. He has to support the Monarch in public, he has to support any decisions QMII makes and he has to carry them out as well if need be. That's the job of the second in command, which is what Frederik is, and indeed has labelled himself as - remember his speech to his mother.

- Because it may indeed be that Joachim screwed up.
Scenario: QMII mentioned her idea of stripping Joachim's children of their titles at some point in the near future or however it was phrased, and to let her know what he was thinking.
Considering this to be a base for a future discussion at some point, Joachim waited for QMII to start that talk. Not saying anything yet to his family, why should he? While QMII was waiting at the phone for Joachim to call and tell her what he thought would be a good approach. And when he didn't call, she went along with her decision.

But there are flaws in that scenario.
Normally an experienced director, which is basically what QMII is, would call and ask: Where is the assessment I asked for?
Before going ahead with a decision.

And if there is a commotion in one of the departments, the director would normally call a meeting to sort things out. Or at least send the manger, Frederik, over to try and fix it.

I find it very difficult to think that Joachim and his two oldest sons should be lying when they say they have not discussed this further with QMII.
Unless they deliberately want to create trouble, why would they? That would not be in their interest if they have hopes of reconciling with QMII.
That they shouldn't have gone public is another matter - but on the other hand, if there is something seriously amiss within the DRF, it may be better it comes out so it can finally be addressed.
On the contrary it's very much in Joachim's interest to have an amiable relationship with his family. Both for his own peace of mind, but also for that of his children and their relationship with their farmor - and by extension their farbror, Frederik, as well.

Beyond that we enter the realm where all possibilities are open, including speculating that the real reason why Nikolai and Felix in particular were stripped of their royal titles is that they are in the habit of super-gluing baby bunnies to the doors of kindergartens on Sunday nights.
Which is a possibility but hardly a probability.

Oh well, a long rant as usual, so let me sum up: I don't know what on earth is going on within the DRF these days. But is sure hasn't been the best year of QMII's reign!

 

[Prinsara]

- Because it may indeed be that Joachim screwed up.
Scenario: QMII mentioned her idea of stripping Joachim's children of their titles at some point in the near future or however it was phrased, and to let her know what he was thinking.
Considering this to be a base for a future discussion at some point, Joachim waited for QMII to start that talk. Not saying anything yet to his family, why should he? While QMII was waiting at the phone for Joachim to call and tell her what he thought would be a good approach. And when he didn't call, she went along with her decision.

But there are flaws in that scenario.
Normally an experienced director, which is basically what QMII is, would call and ask: Where is the assessment I asked for?
Before going ahead with a decision.

I think had Joachim been at fault here, Alex — who has never given any impression that she does not understand exactly how the media works and what it does — would not have had the first instinct to go public in a way that makes it sound like TPTB and QMII are at fault, not him.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....]


Yet another thing that makes absolutely zero sense...so they are supposedly losing their titles to have more freedom...yet they are still in the line of succession? So what is the point of removing the titles in the first place?

[....]

Titles really have nothing to do with succession.

Mr Peter Phillips and Ms Zara Tindall, without titles, once were 5th and 6th in the line of succession for the British throne.

M Andrea Casiraghi, without title, once was the 2nd in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne and still is higher in that line than his very royalborn and titled sister HRH Princess Alexandra of Hannover.

The four children of Prince Joachim are not exactly without titles. They have the hereditary title of Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat with the form of address His (Her) Excellency.

 

[FigTree]

They need to get over it. Worse things happen at sea. The children are never going to sit on the throne. They will never be required to do public duties. But because of their families they always will have nice jobs and homes and protected lives. They aren’t going to end up on the street. It’s the best of all worlds.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Titles really have nothing to do with succession.

Mr Peter Phillips and Ms Zara Tindall, without titles, once were 5th and 6th in the line of succession for the British throne.

M Andrea Casiraghi, without title, once was the 2nd in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne and still is higher in that line than his very royalborn and titled sister HRH Princess Alexandra of Hannover.

But Denmark is not Britain or Monaco. In Denmark, the loss of one's royal title, membership of the royal house, and entitlement to the royal throne (if any) have mostly occurred concurrently - which in my view is the correct approach, as it prevents a confusing half-in, half-out status.

Even outside of Denmark, having untitled persons in line for the throne was rather unusual in modern European monarchies prior to the last few decades.

The Casiraghis are most likely no longer in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne (many articles claim they are, but the Princely Palace does not) given that they seem to have married without asking the formal permission of the monarch.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f13/monacos-succession-issues-1813-33.html#post2277369

The four children of Prince Joachim are not exactly without titles. They have the hereditary title of Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat with the form of address His (Her) Excellency.

Yes, but Athena will lose it and become a plain Mrs. if and when she marries, unless the rules of the nobility have changed by then.

However the mood seems to be changing in regards to stripping Joachim's children of their titles. The opinion being: As long as they don't get an apanage their titles really don't mean that much. So perhaps a better arrangement could be found.
- That is something I don't agree with. We can't have too many royals running around, of which some of them will inevitably get themselves into trouble at some point. better to keep the numbers down to working royals IMO.

[...]

To that I should add that from comments (I haven't seen any of the yearly DRF reviews this year, but the title-affair has been high on the agenda for all of them, I understand) I have read, heard from commentators and ordinary people as well is that this is annoying.
I.e. there is a more or less collective public call saying: Fix it!
We like our royals to have a good image, that's no secret(!) and this is an annoying scratch on that otherwise fairly good image. - Reflects badly on the tribe/village.

Fix the titles or the family conflict? The public doesn't seem to be concerned with Count Ingolf...

 

[Muhler]

Fix the titles or the family conflict? The public doesn't seem to be concerned with Count Ingolf...

(Quote shortened by me.)

Fix the family conflict.
While a substantial number may find that the issue with the titles is something where a compromise can be found, the majority by all accounts still believe in a slimmed down monarchy. It was the way it was done that was wrong.

Count Ingolf was many years ago, and if anything he is an example that the approach with losing titles can work.

Athena could be made countess of Monpezat in her own right. Problem solved and it would IMO be a nice and fair gesture. But she can't pass her title on.

 

[Mbruno]

They need to get over it. Worse things happen at sea. The children are never going to sit on the throne. They will never be required to do public duties. But because of their families they always will have nice jobs and homes and protected lives. They aren’t going to end up on the street. It’s the best of all worlds.

I am actually surprised that Prince Joachim's children are apparently keeping their personal pages on the website of the Danish Royal House considering that, from January 1, they are supposed to be private citizens, albeit still in the line of succession to the throne. I would imagine that only working members of the Royal Family should have individual pages on the official Court website.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Well, that was unfortunate. But definitely a professional error rather than a personal one.

I recall before Princess Estelle's name was announced, the SRF accidentally posted on their website that her name was Ulrika and she was to be Duchess of Upplands Väsby. The reason? The were testing the system. Undoubtedly a similar mistake has happened here. The change of titles is scheduled to take action from 1 January – obviously they're going to have the technical changes planned out in advance.

 

[maria-olivia]

Do we know the reaction of Prince Henrik brother and his late brother Childrens ?

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

- Because it may indeed be that Joachim screwed up.
Scenario: QMII mentioned her idea of stripping Joachim's children of their titles at some point in the near future or however it was phrased, and to let her know what he was thinking.
Considering this to be a base for a future discussion at some point, Joachim waited for QMII to start that talk. Not saying anything yet to his family, why should he? While QMII was waiting at the phone for Joachim to call and tell her what he thought would be a good approach. And when he didn't call, she went along with her decision.

Except for the fact that Joachim himself has elaborated to the press that the idea of removing the children's titles at 25 was presented to him and then he asked for time to think that over. If you ask for time to consider an offer, you can't expect the offering part to follow up. You have to return with your answer on your own accord.

So if we're to believe Joachim when he says he asked for a consideration period in May and he hadn't returned anything come autumn, then yes, Joachim did indeed screw up. That can very easily be perceived as an attempt to stall the process and that may have angered QMII to a point where she refused to wait any longer.

And again: Only one part in this feud has been able to tell their side of the story. And for all the times Joachim, Alexandra and Marie have insisted on telling their side of the story, there's a vast amount of context that's been left out. For example, what happened between May and September? Did Joachim return with an answer? And if so, what was his answer?

I sympathise with Joachim and the kids because I think it was fundamentally unnecessary to remove the titles but I also think it's conspicuous how they very clearly carefully pick and choose what to "reveal" to craft a narrative in which QMII, Frederik and Mary are the big baddies. And that isn't very easy one the eye, methinks.

I think had Joachim been at fault here, Alex — who has never given any impression that she does not understand exactly how the media works and what it does — would not have had the first instinct to go public in a way that makes it sound like TPTB and QMII are at fault, not him.

Alexandra isn't a neutral agent though? She's upset her sons' titles will be removed. QMII is the one who's removing them. Why wouldn't she make it sound like QMII is at fault?

 

[tommy100]

The saddest part of the whole thing is doing it now in the Golden Jubilee year. Much better to have waited and let the year go off without these issues and explored it next year.

 

[Mbruno]

The saddest part of the whole thing is doing it now in the Golden Jubilee year. Much better to have waited and let the year go off without these issues and explored it next year.

For some reason, Queen Margrethe Ii seems to have a sense or urgency. It may be some concrete issue related to her health or simply a normal feeling among people of her age, even when they still have a reasonable life expectancy ahead.

 

[Muhler]

Except for the fact that Joachim himself has elaborated to the press that the idea of removing the children's titles at 25 was presented to him and then he asked for time to think that over. If you ask for time to consider an offer, you can't expect the offering part to follow up. You have to return with your answer on your own accord.

So if we're to believe Joachim when he says he asked for a consideration period in May and he hadn't returned anything come autumn, then yes, Joachim did indeed screw up. That can very easily be perceived as an attempt to stall the process and that may have angered QMII to a point where she refused to wait any longer.

And again: Only one part in this feud has been able to tell their side of the story. And for all the times Joachim, Alexandra and Marie have insisted on telling their side of the story, there's a vast amount of context that's been left out. For example, what happened between May and September? Did Joachim return with an answer? And if so, what was his answer?

I sympathise with Joachim and the kids because I think it was fundamentally unnecessary to remove the titles but I also think it's conspicuous how they very clearly carefully pick and choose what to "reveal" to craft a narrative in which QMII, Frederik and Mary are the big baddies. And that isn't very easy one the eye, methinks.

(Quote shortened by me)

Yeah, but it still doesn't explain why QMII didn't press for a reply, before going ahead with her decision.
The normal thing, especially within a family would be to call, write or send a carrier pigeon.
Or at the very least send a registered letter informing Joachim that unless she hears from him, XYZ will be in effect from this and that date.

There is of course also the option of recollections may (genuinely) vary.
So that either Joachim is lying, in which case he and his reputation will be toast if QMII contradicts that.
Or that for whatever reason this was presented in a way so that Joachim didn't understand the seriousness of it or misunderstood the message. And simply replied with a "I'll consider it."
- And this is where it becomes at catch 22.

If Joachim didn't respond why didn't QMII contact him?
And if QMII didn't contact him, why didn't Joachim think it serious enough to contact QMII to follow up on this? Or at the very least discuss this with his wives. It's after all about the future of their combined children.

How can there be a misunderstanding about this? Didn't QMII make it clear enough that she was dead serious?
How can they not talk? AFAIK the phone-lines and postal service between DK and France is still working.

And as this has an affect on the CP family why wasn't there a family meeting?
If Joachim was ignoring his mother's suggestion as well as her calls, why didn't she send Frederik to see or call Joachim? Or the ambassador if need be.
And if it's a case of Joachim thinking: Mother is talking ga-ga again, I'll just indulge. Well, mother Margrethe just happens to have executive powers, so that would probably be a pretty stupid move. And in that case the normal approach, I should think, would be to talk to Frederik about it.

- In short: I still don't get it.

 

[Izzie]

(Quote shortened by me)

Yeah, but it still doesn't explain why QMII didn't press for a reply, before going ahead with her decision.
The normal thing, especially within a family would be to call, write or send a carrier pigeon.
Or at the very least send a registered letter informing Joachim that unless she hears from him, XYZ will be in effect from this and that date.

There is of course also the option of recollections may (genuinely) vary.
So that either Joachim is lying, in which case he and his reputation will be toast if QMII contradicts that.
Or that for forever reason this was presented in a way so that Joachim didn't understand the seriousness of it or misunderstood the message. And simply replied with a "I'll consider it."
- And this is where it becomes at catch 22.

If Joachim didn't respond why didn't QMII contact him?
And if QMII didn't contact him, why didn't Joachim think it serious enough to contact QMII to follow up on this? Or at the very least discuss this with his wives. It's after all about the future of their combined children.

How can there be a misunderstanding about this? Didn't QMII make it clear enough that she was dead serious?
How can they not talk? AFAIK the phone-lines and postal service between DK and France is still working.

And as this has an affect on the CP family why wasn't there a family meeting?
If Joachim was ignoring his mother's suggestion as well as her calls, why didn't she send Frederik to see or call Joachim? Or the ambassador if need be.
And if it's a case of Joachim thinking: Mother is talking ga-ga again, I'll just indulge. Well, mother Margrethe just happens to have executive powers, so that would probably be a pretty stupid move. And in that case the normal approach, I should think, would be to talk to Frederik about it.

- In short: I still don't get it.

I still don't know why all of a sudden this became such an urgent matter that it needed to be pushed through this year. And it obviously had not been any type of done deal when the Court itself could not give an answer about the actual logistics of how this would work. They literally said things had not all been settled yet..then why in the world would a formal statement be put out if not all had been ironed out?

I mean if QMII thinks it proper to send a staff member to deliver the news to her son about the final decision...I can only just imagine how the rest of any communication may have gone. If you are going to make such a drastic decision have the guts to do it in person and face the person(s) that it is affecting. Convenient to hide behind staffers.

And I stand by my opinion that Frederik was called home from NYC on September 22nd because the timing of this decision came to light and he was called home to deal with it. Sorry, the timing is just too coincidental. The timeframe also coincides with Joachim saying he was told 5 days prior of the decision going public. Count back from when the announcement was made and you get the date Frederik had to leave NYC. Not that hard to make the connection.

And in my line of work, the person making the ultimatum or issuing the edict, or however you want to phrase it, is usually the one to follow up at least once. Especially with something of this magnitude.

The issue also is...so the decision is made. Parties are obviously upset. Why then would you think it appropriate to put out a damage control like "too bad-so sad" press release! Pick up the phone and call your son!! And if true she still has not spoken to her grandchildren...well....smdh at that. Be a grandmother for at least 5 minutes.

It was dealt with horribly. I still believe this didn't need to happen at all. It still makes zero sense why it could not have been an issue of "going forward" the children of these four grandchildren will not have titles. OR the HH could have been removed and only Prince/Princess left like it was done in Sweden. Then the way it was done was beyond cold, careless, heartless, detached, etc. And then to top it off, they cannot even seem to get updating a website correct and make it look like some petty move...almost like some cold reminder...ha ha....only a few days left.....Ha Ha!!!

And now it gets all rehashed again during the year-end reviews of the DRF. On January 1 it will be rehashed. And possibly every time they are referred to as Count/ess there will be a blurb about it. It is not going away. The four people affected, just their presence, is a constant reminder of what happened.

It is a mess that did not need to happen. And I still have no clue what is going on and why it became such an urgent issue that needed to be dealt with. I swear Frederik would have done a better job of dealing with this...he at least has empathy and has value for family and would probably try to put himself in his brother's position to try to understand how it would feel. Would Frederik have ultimately made the same decision? Of course....would he have approached it with more tact, care, respect and professionalism...100%.

The translation of some of the comments on IG. If accurate, yikes
https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/haard-dom-dronningen-er-en-skid

 

[tommy100]

The Queen should and should have dealt with it better. As should Joachim. But I guess he also felt he was taking the lead from his mother who had sent staff to tell him about it rather than discuss it in person, maybe he felt that justified talking to his mother through the press rather than in person.

I still don't get the rush to do this and why Marge effectively self-sabotaged her own Jubilee year. The only way the timing would make sense to me if she is announced in her New Year's Eve address that she is abdicating thus it becomes clear she acted quickly to ensure the perfect set up for Frederik and to save him from having to make these decisions. I doubt she is going to do that so again why it couldn't have waited until 2023 to deal with, especially when it was clear there was no consensus.

Interesting to see the Danish media picking up on the social media comments, I saw them online and was pretty taken back but for the media to pick up on it seems another level.

 

[polyesco]

Except for the fact that Joachim himself has elaborated to the press that the idea of removing the children's titles at 25 was presented to him and then he asked for time to think that over. If you ask for time to consider an offer, you can't expect the offering part to follow up. You have to return with your answer on your own accord.

So if we're to believe Joachim when he says he asked for a consideration period in May and he hadn't returned anything come autumn, then yes, Joachim did indeed screw up. That can very easily be perceived as an attempt to stall the process and that may have angered QMII to a point where she refused to wait any longer.

And again: Only one part in this feud has been able to tell their side of the story. And for all the times Joachim, Alexandra and Marie have insisted on telling their side of the story, there's a vast amount of context that's been left out. For example, what happened between May and September? Did Joachim return with an answer? And if so, what was his answer?

I sympathise with Joachim and the kids because I think it was fundamentally unnecessary to remove the titles but I also think it's conspicuous how they very clearly carefully pick and choose what to "reveal" to craft a narrative in which QMII, Frederik and Mary are the big baddies. And that isn't very easy one the eye, methinks.
...

This. Only one side has insisted and insisted in speaking to the press. Painting themselves the victims too loudly me thinks.
Some things, conversations should remain in family behind close doors. I would hate for the Queen to talk badly about her son, wives and grandkids.

 

[iceflower]

Personal remarks have been removed. Please stay respectful towards each other and use the PM method instead in case you want to exchange personal thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Somebody]

In terms of timing. The queen did this shorrly after her good friend queen Elisabeth died. I am still convinced that her death made her feel the urgency of getting this issue resolved, so she wouldn't leave it for Frederik after her death - the timing of which she cannot predict.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But Denmark is not Britain or Monaco. In Denmark, the loss of one's royal title, membership of the royal house, and entitlement to the royal throne (if any) have mostly occurred concurrently - which in my view is the correct approach, as it prevents a confusing half-in, half-out status.

Even outside of Denmark, having untitled persons in line for the throne was rather unusual in modern European monarchies prior to the last few decades.

The Casiraghis are most likely no longer in the line of succession to the Monegasque throne (many articles claim they are, but the Princely Palace does not) given that they seem to have married without asking the formal permission of the monarch.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f13/monacos-succession-issues-1813-33.html#post2277369


Yes, but Athena will lose it and become a plain Mrs. if and when she marries, unless the rules of the nobility have changed by then.



Fix the titles or the family conflict? The public doesn't seem to be concerned with Count Ingolf...

That is all correct. The only point I wanted to make was that titulature and succession are two different things. One does not need to have a title of the Royal House to be a successor (or even does not need tp have any title at all, alike the given foreign examples).

That Athena "looses" her comital title upon marriage is a peculiar Danish thing, it seems. In other nobiliary systems the lady traditionally is addressed with her husband's name/title indeed but never looses her own style, as that is the one which is registered in the municipal registry. It is very peculiar that a Danish noble lady looses the style, title and surname when engaging into marriage.

When the sister of Queen Mathilde of the Belgians married the Italian Marquess Alfonso Pallavicini, she became the marquise Alfonso Pallavicini, comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz. No way that she would lose her own surname and style. Very, very peculiar practice that is, in Denmark.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

That is all correct. The only point I wanted to make was that titulature and succession are two different things. One does not need to have a title of the Royal House to be a successor (or even does not need tp have any title at all, alike the given foreign examples).

That Athena "looses" her comital title upon marriage is a peculiar Danish thing, it seems. In other nobiliary systems the lady traditionally is addressed with her husband's name/title indeed but never looses her own style, as that is the one which is registered in the municipal registry. It is very peculiar that a Danish noble lady looses the style, title and surname when engaging into marriage.

When the sister of Queen Mathilde of the Belgians married the Italian Marquess Alfonso Pallavicini, she became the marquise Alfonso Pallavicini, comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz. No way that she would lose her own surname and style. Very, very peculiar practice that is, in Denmark.

What is most unfair is that Athena's father's first wife is a Countess for life.

So as I currently see it, as a daughter of a Prince, Athena loses her title upon marriage, but her brothers do not and her father's ex stay a Countess since she was married to a Prince. For a secular society, I'm surprised the Danish public are not calling out this double standard

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What is most unfair is that Athena's father's first wife is a Countess for life.

So as I currently see it, as a daughter of a Prince, Athena loses her title upon marriage, but her brothers do not and her father's ex stay a Countess since she was married to a Prince. For a secular society, I'm surprised the Danish public are not calling out this double standard

Well, the whole nobility on itself is an anomaly in a modern, democratic and egalitarian society of course. Other systems of nobility have discriminatory elements as well. The surprise in the Danish situation is that apparently the given names and title with which one is registered (and usually is for life) are adapted upon marriage. It looks like the Danish Civic Code, usually the most important Law Book after the Constitution, is subordinate to the Nobiliary traditions. I think that is unique (if really correct that a Danish lady looses her title of nobility indeed).

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

(Quote shortened by me)

Yeah, but it still doesn't explain why QMII didn't press for a reply, before going ahead with her decision.
The normal thing, especially within a family would be to call, write or send a carrier pigeon.
Or at the very least send a registered letter informing Joachim that unless she hears from him, XYZ will be in effect from this and that date.

There is of course also the option of recollections may (genuinely) vary.
So that either Joachim is lying, in which case he and his reputation will be toast if QMII contradicts that.
Or that for whatever reason this was presented in a way so that Joachim didn't understand the seriousness of it or misunderstood the message. And simply replied with a "I'll consider it."
- And this is where it becomes at catch 22.

If Joachim didn't respond why didn't QMII contact him?
And if QMII didn't contact him, why didn't Joachim think it serious enough to contact QMII to follow up on this? Or at the very least discuss this with his wives. It's after all about the future of their combined children.

How can there be a misunderstanding about this? Didn't QMII make it clear enough that she was dead serious?
How can they not talk? AFAIK the phone-lines and postal service between DK and France is still working (...)

But we don't know if they did push for an answer though? Joachim told BT that he "originally asked for time to think the proposition over and return with my feedback. [QMII's side] would take note of that." Just another part of context that's been conveniently left out.

And that's not to say Joachim is lying but I think it's blatantly obvious that the narrative is being very carefully constructed to favour their side. I mean, Joachim is teamed up with Alexandra who, as Prinsara pointed out in a previous post, is extremely media savvy.

And that's just important to remember before getting one's panties in a twist over how big, bad and mean QMII/Frederik/Mary are. The people who've told 90% of the story are not neutral agents, they all have an agenda and they know the vast majority of what they say will go undisputed because QMII isn't about to air her dirty laundry in the tabloids.

But hey, we can easily agree that the lack of communication on both sides has been astonishingly stupid.

And if it's a case of Joachim thinking: Mother is talking ga-ga again, I'll just indulge.

When has Joachim ever "just" indulged?

In terms of timing. The queen did this shorrly after her good friend queen Elisabeth died. I am still convinced that her death made her feel the urgency of getting this issue resolved, so she wouldn't leave it for Frederik after her death - the timing of which she cannot predict.

Very true.

That, combined with the general election being called a week's time after the announcement (which actually did put a damper on the news value of the title issue in the general public), actually makes the timing make pretty good sense regardless of what one thinks of the decision itself.

What is most unfair is that Athena's father's first wife is a Countess for life.

So as I currently see it, as a daughter of a Prince, Athena loses her title upon marriage, but her brothers do not and her father's ex stay a Countess since she was married to a Prince. For a secular society, I'm surprised the Danish public are not calling out this double standard

The problem is that I don't actually think most Danes are aware of the fact that this will happen. I'm quite certain it would cause a stir if it was actually being elaborated that that is what happens but for some reason the media narrative hasn't focused at all on the inequality of the titles.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That Athena "looses" her comital title upon marriage is a peculiar Danish thing, it seems. In other nobiliary systems the lady traditionally is addressed with her husband's name/title indeed but never looses her own style, as that is the one which is registered in the municipal registry. It is very peculiar that a Danish noble lady looses the style, title and surname when engaging into marriage.

The Swedish system is even more gender discriminatory, as there even the unmarried sisters of counts and barons are not permitted to use the same title as their brothers and are plain Miss. On the other hand, the Swedish nobility lost its standing as a public institution in 2003, whereas I believe the Danish nobility still enjoys some degree of official recognition.

The surprise in the Danish situation is that apparently the given names and title with which one is registered (and usually is for life) are adapted upon marriage. It looks like the Danish Civic Code, usually the most important Law Book after the Constitution, is subordinate to the Nobiliary traditions. I think that is unique (if really correct that a Danish lady looses her title of nobility indeed).

There are numerous countries, with or without a nobility, where it is possible or even mandatory to adapt one's legally registered birth name upon marriage.

In Denmark, the present Name Act allows people to drop their own surnames upon marriage, but it is not a requirement. That is the case regardless of nobiliary status. Nearly all of the married Komtesser af Rosenborg have opted to retain their surname "of Rosenborg" despite losing their title of Komtesse upon marriage (and I think some of them continue to use that title, even though it is considered incorrect).

However, the anomaly with the Countesses of Monpezat is that, unusually, the terms of the 2008 creation were that "of Monpezat" would be considered part of the title, rather than a surname. It is unclear whether that will change on January 1. If not, then Countess Athena of Monpezat may remain surnameless and have no choice but to take on a new surname if and when she marries, as she will lose the title then.

The surprise in the Danish situation is that apparently the given names and title with which one is registered (and usually is for life) are adapted upon marriage. It looks like the Danish Civic Code, usually the most important Law Book after the Constitution, is subordinate to the Nobiliary traditions. I think that is unique (if really correct that a Danish lady looses her title of nobility indeed).

To be honest I am not sure if there is an extant legal basis for Danish noble titles or if their usage has been reduced to custom as in Sweden, but the rule that a born baroness or countess loses her title upon marriage is strictly followed by the Royal Court. In Royal Court communications, daughters of counts who have married commoners are always referred to as plain Mrs. (or whatever non-noble form of address they may enjoy).

At the wedding of the Crown Prince Couple in 2004, the Royal Court even insisted on addressing the married Josephine and Camilla of Rosenborg by their husbands' surnames, which the women themselves have never used.

https://web.archive.org/web/2017091...parrets-bryllup/gasteliste-til-vor-frue-kirke

 

[Muhler]

What is most unfair is that Athena's father's first wife is a Countess for life.

So as I currently see it, as a daughter of a Prince, Athena loses her title upon marriage, but her brothers do not and her father's ex stay a Countess since she was married to a Prince. For a secular society, I'm surprised the Danish public are not calling out this double standard

It is unfair, but then the whole system of nobility is anything but fair. It's based on inequality.
Apart from that I doubt many Danes are even aware that a komtesse will lose her title upon marriage.

The monarch has the right of giving Athena a title in her own right and as I have mentioned before I think that would be a fair and nice touch.

Well, the whole nobility on itself is an anomaly in a modern, democratic and egalitarian society of course. Other systems of nobility have discriminatory elements as well. The surprise in the Danish situation is that apparently the given names and title with which one is registered (and usually is for life) are adapted upon marriage. It looks like the Danish Civic Code, usually the most important Law Book after the Constitution, is subordinate to the Nobiliary traditions. I think that is unique (if really correct that a Danish lady looses her title of nobility indeed).

I don't think anyone has sued, so the whole idea of women being unable to pass their titles on hasn't been tried at court AFAIK.
Not least because nobility entails no privileges in Denmark, it's basically just a title and nothing more. A title that can be granted, stripped or passed on according to some specific conditions.
As I can't call myself count it's also an open question as to whether that is discrimination against me.
It's a long subject and something PH was touching as well. I.e. that a man who marries a reigning queen is "only" a prince, rather than king, while a woman who marries a king becomes a queen.

In the day to day life noble titles have no meaning. No one is going to introduce themselves as Count Jensen anyway. And there are lots of counts around doing ordinary jobs who never use their title.

- And perhaps that's a part of the problem here? I'm pretty sure is in fact. Because while a count is at best interesting, a prince is in an entirely different league!
Both in the minds of people, how you are treated and the privileges you have.

But we don't know if they did push for an answer though? Joachim told BT that he "originally asked for time to think the proposition over and return with my feedback. [QMII's side] would take note of that." Just another part of context that's been conveniently left out.

And that's not to say Joachim is lying but I think it's blatantly obvious that the narrative is being very carefully constructed to favour their side. I mean, Joachim is teamed up with Alexandra who, as Prinsara pointed out in a previous post, is extremely media savvy.

And that's just important to remember before getting one's panties in a twist over how big, bad and mean QMII/Frederik/Mary are. The people who've told 90% of the story are not neutral agents, they all have an agenda and they know the vast majority of what they say will go undisputed because QMII isn't about to air her dirty laundry in the tabloids.

But hey, we can easily agree that the lack of communication on both sides has been astonishingly stupid.



When has Joachim ever "just" indulged?

(Quote shortened)

That we can agree on!

Having said that I don't disagree with you that Joachim screwed up (who could for example have kept his mouth shut after Alexandra went out) that however is just one of a number of possibilities.

The theory I lean most towards right now is that QMII and Joachim talked past each other and misunderstood each other. - That sort of things does happen, quite frequently in fact. But for whatever reason I simply cannot fathom, they don't seem to have talked when they met.
That should not happen in any family, it sure should not happen in the DRF and it should not happen in a company, which is basically what the DRF is.

I mean, what in the name of the holy teapot do they talk about when they meet?!? French impressionists? Bureaucracy in 1300s Burgundy? (An interesting topic BTW.) Nothing else?

It's one thing they don't wear out each other's doormats within the DRF, many families work fine like that, but this is ridiculous.

I begin to suspect that the glue that kept the family together was PH.

 

[Toledo]

The Queen should and should have dealt with it better. As should Joachim. But I guess he also felt he was taking the lead from his mother who had sent staff to tell him about it rather than discuss it in person, maybe he felt that justified talking to his mother through the press rather than in person.

I still don't get the rush to do this and why Marge effectively self-sabotaged her own Jubilee year. The only way the timing would make sense to me if she is announced in her New Year's Eve address that she is abdicating thus it becomes clear she acted quickly to ensure the perfect set up for Frederik and to save him from having to make these decisions. I doubt she is going to do that so again why it couldn't have waited until 2023 to deal with, especially when it was clear there was no consensus.

Interesting to see the Danish media picking up on the social media comments, I saw them online and was pretty taken back but for the media to pick up on it seems another level.

I think abdication should be viewed as a form or retirement and not with the stigma of just quitting the job. Royals of a certain age should take the hint from the former Pope and Queen Beatrix and become Emeritus, so they can enjoy a few years of rest and slowing down.

I would be happy if Margaret, Harald and Gustaf just stepped aside into Emeritus royals to let the new generation take over.