New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
In Sweden, there is no clear post-1980 precedent, as Chris O'Neill declined any Swedish title by refusing to become a Swedish citizen, but my understanding is that, before Chris, Jonas was going to become a Duke, but not a Prince.

Chris O'Neill was apparently offered a princely title.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-and-changes-2019-a-20051-13.html#post2305095

Whatever one may think of their grandmother or father, I think they are four nice, respectful kids and young adults who didn't earn this and deserved a lot better than public awkwardness and humiliation. I hope they find a way to have a Happy New Year regardless.

Well, that was the idea, was it not? Removing the titles earlier instead of later makes it a bit clearer that the removal is not something they have "earned" through serious scandals or egregious exploitation of their titles, nor meant as a personal humiliation for a prince or princess who has become unpopular over the years, but a structural reform analogous to the reforms already implemented in the other European kingdoms. Obviously, the Danish siblings being adults and older children, unlike the infants and young children who were affected in most of the other European reforms (the 1987 reform in Spain did impact adult family members), means that feelings of awkwardness and humiliation were always a possibility, which has unfortunately been realized. But that possibility would have only become more probable with the passage of time, and doubled if future spouses were added into the mix.
 
Way to take an attempt at a non-controversial post and call Nikolai a spoiled brat. Says more about you than it does about him.

Is this really necessary? It's fine if you disagree with my opinion on his attitude, but there's no need to be rude.

I stand by my statement. Nikolai and Felix undertake no royal duties and should not/do not need to be Prince's. I'm sure it must be frustrating to have something for 20+ years and then get it taken away, but the way to react is not to make woe is me statements to the press. A stand up reaction would have fared better for him.

It is bratty behavior and disappointing.
 
This mish-mash wouldn't have happened if Nikolai and Felix had been titled as Counts de Montpezat from the beginning (their births) and, eventually, elevated to the rank of the Princes only in case of His uncle Frederik's infertility.

The firstborn granddaughter of then Queen Beatrix was never a Princess, wasn't she?

Or Count of Rosenborg like every other former danish prince…

The Monpezat-title was created in 2008 and given to Frederik and Joachim, to appease their late father who always strongly and loudly disliked that his descendants didn’t have a title from his side…
 
The Monpezat-title was created in 2008 to appease the late Prince Henrik who always strongly and loudly disliked that his descendants didn’t have a title from his side…


And now part of his descendants have only a Title from his side. He would surely be pleased.
 
Nikolai and Felix have a right to be sad about having to stop being princes of Denmark.
We don't know what that title meant to them. But now they will have to get used to their new condition.
But I think the biggest issue was how Queen Margrethe II handled this issue. The queen should have spoken to her grandchildren first.
 
Way to take an attempt at a non-controversial post and call Nikolai a spoiled brat. Says more about you than it does about him.

No, it doesn't.
It simply states what majority of people think of constant self-pitying in front of the media.
We all have agreed that the way the Queen communicated this (both privately and publicly) is horrible, whether we support her decision or not.
The boys and their parents immediately ran to the media - fine, not appropriate but we can understand their hurt feelings.
But whining to the media again, and again, and again, and again...
 
Or is it the media just bringing it up again and again and again the way QM grandchildren lost their titles. I don’t always believe it is the people involved but the media will ‘milk’ the bad news all they can for as long as they can. JMO
 
Or is it the media just bringing it up again and again and again the way QM grandchildren lost their titles. I don’t always believe it is the people involved but the media will ‘milk’ the bad news all they can for as long as they can. JMO

There is no question about that. BT especially is very fond of writing articles about this particular subject. But just because a journalist calls it doesn't mean you are obliged to answer...
Felix has said nothing.
 
You mean you can have title Prince / Princess and not be part of the Danish Royal House but be part of the family. Shhh don't tell Joachim that :whistling:

Exactly how does that differ from Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands refusing the title Princess/Prince to her own grandchildren, but allowing Princess Irene's male-line descendants to remain HRH Prince/Princess de Bourbon de Parme in perpetuity?

Or King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden stripping the HRH from his own grandchildren and leaving them with no Highness title, but permitting the sons of his sister Birgitta to be addressed as HSH Prince of Hohenzollern at the Swedish court?

Or the various other European monarchs who have pared down the titles associated with their own royal house, but continue to enable their friends and distant cousins from dethroned families to use no longer existing titles?

While I disagree with Queen Margrethe II's handling of the titles of Anne-Marie's branch of the family, I see no reason why she alone should be targeted for it when it is indistinguishable from the behavior of her fellow European monarchs.


Would be an interesting turn of events. I wonder if the next steps for the Danish RF is to stop recognising the titles of the Queen's sisters families which are no longer legal titles in their home countries anyway.

While Princess Benedikte's children are technically untitled, they do carry the designation of Prince/Princess as part of their legal name, which is still the norm for former royal and noble families in Germany. Only their predicate of HH is not legally recognized in Germany (and indeed never was legal in Germany - before the German nobility was abolished the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg family was "only" HSH).


What I mean is that the children of Queen Anne-Marie and Princess Benedikte are members of foreign royal houses and therefore the titles they hold are not related to the Danish royal house. It is not difficult to understand.

I understand the broad point you are making, but just as a clarification: The former royal family of Greece, including the husband, children and male-line grandchildren of Anne-Marie, continues to claim the Danish royal title of Prince/Princess of Denmark. However, they rarely use the "of Denmark", preferring to be known as "of Greece".

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...nts-2008-and-2022-a-16845-29.html#post2496690

Moreover, given how Greece has withdrawn the titles of its former monarchy, if there remains any real basis for the "Greek" titles claimed by Anne-Marie and her family, it is either Danish or British (I believe they hold passports from both countries).
 
Nikolai and Felix have a right to be sad about having to stop being princes of Denmark.
We don't know what that title meant to them. But now they will have to get used to their new condition.
But I think the biggest issue was how Queen Margrethe II handled this issue. The queen should have spoken to her grandchildren first.

I really don't follow this family constantly, so I don't know much about Nikolai and Felix. Since their titles have been reduced, what happens to their official charity works that Royals seem to do. I notice others will drop in during the years to see how things are doing. Does losing their higher title also mean that they have lost their prestigious positions on their works for their personal charities which seems to go along with titles. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject but as an American, I am really just curious on exactly what the ramifications will be on these lads by having their titles reduced. Will it affect their job at all? I thank anyone that could explain the different title change and if this change will harm their future.
 
I'm personally relaxed about Nikolai answering questions - there's clearly been a lot going on behind the scenes, firstly with Joachim and Marie's move to France, and now this. Nikolai's obviously seen the backstage manoeuvring and at the end of the day, he's no longer a Prince of Denmark. As such he's now able to say how he feels about the situation; he doesn't represent the DRF anymore. If he's still talking about this in a year's time I'll agree it's time to move on, but the actual removal has only just happened.
 
I'm personally relaxed about Nikolai answering questions - there's clearly been a lot going on behind the scenes, firstly with Joachim and Marie's move to France, and now this. Nikolai's obviously seen the backstage manoeuvring and at the end of the day, he's no longer a Prince of Denmark. As such he's now able to say how he feels about the situation; he doesn't represent the DRF anymore. If he's still talking about this in a year's time I'll agree it's time to move on, but the actual removal has only just happened.

Congratulations on your first post. :flowers:

Well, you are absolutely right. Nikolai has said his mind, and whatever he says wont change a thing, he is a count now and that's it.

However, he is also a 23 year old adult man now. While QMII IMO should indeed have explained her decision to her adult grandsons, couldn't Nikolai, considering is misgivings about this, have called his grandmother? Or written a letter to her?
Has he ever called just to say hi? Dropped by for a cup of coffee? A relationship goes two ways, especially when you become an adult.

I know, I know, when you are in your late teens and in your twenties, you sometimes, often, forget that you also have a family.
Then one day some of them are gone and you realize you never really got to know them as an adult.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I doubt this situation would have gone this far has PH been around. Because he made sure he had a relationship with his family and not least his grandchildren.

I really don't follow this family constantly, so I don't know much about Nikolai and Felix. Since their titles have been reduced, what happens to their official charity works that Royals seem to do. I notice others will drop in during the years to see how things are doing. Does losing their higher title also mean that they have lost their prestigious positions on their works for their personal charities which seems to go along with titles. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject but as an American, I am really just curious on exactly what the ramifications will be on these lads by having their titles reduced. Will it affect their job at all? I thank anyone that could explain the different title change and if this change will harm their future.

That's the crux of the matter.
No, in pursuing a normal career their titles won't matter.
In Denmark, because everybody know who they are and that they have a large and influential network. In a day to day job, their skills and network is more important than their titles.
Outside DK it probably matters even less. Okay, it may be an interesting novelty to have a real life prince among your staff, and their network may be useful but it's their skills that really matters and what the bottom line is.

The problem for Nikolai is that he has been making a career where he is a face, because he is royal. He may be a good model, I'm not qualified to be the judge of that, but it sure doesn't detract being a prince!
I think that he may found that being a count, although still making him a novelty, is considerably less interesting than being a prince, not least in a very competitive business.

Apart from that, they have likely lost their diplomatic passports, which all DRF members have. After all, why should they have it? They is no longer royals and they are not doing any work for the DRF.

They will also have to work out a surname, I believe.
Right now Nikolai is His Excellency Nikolai etc., Greve of Monpezat. - Grev Nikolai is not a surname, nor is it a first name and Grev Monpezat is not a surname either. So my guess is that he will eventually become Nikolai Monpezat or Nikolai Frederiksborg. - Shouldn't be a problem, he can do that online.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
However, he is also a 23 year old adult man now. While QMII IMO should indeed have explained her decision to her adult grandsons, couldn't Nikolai, considering is misgivings about this, have called his grandmother? Or written a letter to her?
Has he ever called just to say hi? Dropped by for a cup of coffee? A relationship goes two ways, especially when you become an adult.

And this is what's been bothering me since the beginning of this saga.
The Queen told Joachim about her decision in May and none of them talked to the Queen about it? Since May?
 
There isn't really much for me to add, except that as a former prince,
Nikolaj may have lost some of his "lustre" as a model! I suppose that
the fashion houses would be inclined to pay him less in the future??
This really is a toxic situation, and it's time to go get the proverbial
popcorn!


.
 
Last edited:
Aaaaand here we go again:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grev-nikol...-oplevelse-som-jeg-helst-havde-vaeret-foruden

Nikolai has talked to BT, being asked how it feels to be a count after the New Year celebration:
"It's a strange feeling and an experience I'd rather be without. (Very much a Joachim wording! And not typical of someone of Nikolai's age.)
But that it is how it is now. I will for the rest of my life be proud of the years, where I was allowed to be prince to Denmark."....

Reading this, I find a major word missing: Service. I'd have more sympathy with Nikolai's comment if he'd said something about how he plans to continue (or start) serving Denmark, despite his title.

Some choices he and his brother have made, such as dropping out of military training, are perfectly fine, but they don't exactly signal a commitment or interest in serving Denmark or the royal house. No need for a princely title.
 
Marketing-wise it was good for him to be called a Prince of a European country (interviews, …)
Now being referred to as a simple Count of an unknown village in France can make a difference. If you’re unaware, he can be a simple minor noble.

Of course we know he’s still a grandson of the Queen of Denmark. But if you’re a simple reader of Vanity Fair or GQ, you don’t know that and thus no wow-effect anymore. This reflects on his career and income.

It’s quite understandable he’s let down by this. He could have enjoyed 8-10 more years (potential marriage age) of “greater interest” in him as a model.

I wish him all the best for his career despite the sad circumstance.
 
However, he is also a 23 year old adult man now. While QMII IMO should indeed have explained her decision to her adult grandsons, couldn't Nikolai, considering is misgivings about this, have called his grandmother? Or written a letter to her?
Has he ever called just to say hi? Dropped by for a cup of coffee? A relationship goes two ways, especially when you become an adult.


You're assuming that he's allowed to just "drop by for a cup of coffee". I don't know how informal the Danish court is, but it's usually tradition for the monarch to issue the invitations, and not for the minor members of the house to barge in on her at their own will.
 
In one of their recent interviews, Felix (I think?) mentioned that they had to get permission from their grandmother to use the home in France for their birthday celebrations. So, I think they know how to get in contact with her.
 
I'm sure they do know how to contact her, or at least her private secretary for something like permission to use a house. It's quite another thing to assume that they can just drop in on her for a visit whenever they wanted to.


It's most likely that they would need to request an audience with her before seeing her in person, and we don't know if she has been or would be receptive to that kind of request under the circumstances.
 
I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

And I doubt this will go away and some press will always bring this debacle up whenever they can. Oh well...it may always be an overshadow....decisions and actions have consequences.

Haha, whoa, don't hold back :lol:

Then, is Nikolai saying that even though he always knew the (wedding) day would come when he would lose his Prince title, he still felt strange about it and would prefer never to lose it although he knew it would happen? Or is he saying that the strange experience he would rather be without is having it occur at this time and in this manner, instead of quietly(?) upon marriage as he originally expected?

Only the latter makes sense but his, Joachim, Marie and Alexandra's reactions have all alluded to the former. I mean, why else accuse QMII of taking the children's identities away from them if they were, as they repeatedly claim, always under the impression that the titles would go regardless when they married? But then, I've also never understood why Joachim (now at least – seemingly not in May) considers it less harmful to remove the titles at 25 (in 1 1/2 year for Nikolai) than now.

However, he is also a 23 year old adult man now. While QMII IMO should indeed have explained her decision to her adult grandsons, couldn't Nikolai, considering is misgivings about this, have called his grandmother? Or written a letter to her?
Has he ever called just to say hi? Dropped by for a cup of coffee? A relationship goes two ways, especially when you become an adult.

Indeed. And to make it all even more bizarre, QMII and Felix are literally living right next to each other in adjoining palaces at Amalienborg. Technically speaking Felix is living at her place :cool: And Nikolai is living just two blocks away from them. From the outside, it looks like really absurd behaviour on both ends.

And while I too think QMII should be the one to reach out, she isn't getting younger and Nikolai and Felix should take into consideration the regret they will feel if she suddenly passes away and they've missed out on time with her because they've been sulking in the corner over a title change they apparently were fully aware would happen sooner or later (should they choose to marry).
 
The one thing I feel bad about for the Danish Royal Family as a whole is the field day the press is going to have at every single big family/royal events from here on out. If several members of HRH Prince Joachim's branch of the family don't show up, then there's going to be speculation that there's anger on either side of the rift. If they do, there's going to be all of the body-language "experts" writing long articles about how meaningful a scratch of a nose is.

Unless family members outside of the Royal House generally don't attend royal functions that are more familial in nature, like birthday parties. I confess that I don't know a lot about the Danish Royal Family.
 
Whatever one may think of their grandmother or father, I think they are four nice, respectful kids and young adults who didn't earn this and deserved a lot better than public awkwardness and humiliation. I hope they find a way to have a Happy New Year regardless.

There was no humiliation in the decision itself. If somehow any hint of humiliation is now attached to the decision it is only there because of how Joachim's family made it into one by how they publicly responded to the decision.
 
Whatever one may think of their grandmother or father, I think they are four nice, respectful kids and young adults who didn't earn this and deserved a lot better than public awkwardness and humiliation. I hope they find a way to have a Happy New Year regardless.

Humiliation?

The four children remain in the line of succession for the throne of Denmark. Their grandmother the Queen organizes the Royal House to her own will and pleasure. She has considered that -in line with the trend in all Royal Houses in Europe- it was wise to limit the usage of titles of said Royal House. No more, no less.

The four children have the hereditary noble title of Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat and the form of address His (Her) Excellency. I fail to see the "humiliation" in that. It simply was the result of a sound consideration for the sustainability of the Danish monarchy in the decades to come. The Queen prioritized that future and I think that was wise indeed.
 
Humiliation?

The four children remain in the line of succession for the throne of Denmark. Their grandmother the Queen organizes the Royal House to her own will and pleasure. She has considered that -in line with the trend in all Royal Houses in Europe- it was wise to limit the usage of titles of said Royal House. No more, no less.

The four children have the hereditary noble title of Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat and the form of address His (Her) Excellency. I fail to see the "humiliation" in that. It simply was the result of a sound consideration for the sustainability of the Danish monarchy in the decades to come. The Queen prioritized that future and I think that was wise indeed.


Maybe so, but again, she went about it the wrong way and has ended up with resentful family.

So she can enjoy feeling she did the right thing whilst being estranged from her eldest grandchildren.
 
There was no humiliation in the decision itself. If somehow any hint of humiliation is now attached to the decision it is only there because of how Joachim's family made it into one by how they publicly responded to the decision.
On the contrary, I think there was much humiliation in the decision precisely because they were going to lose the titles anyway. The overall impression I was left with is that the Queen was extremely eager to make it extra early and ugly in this particular case, an impression that was indeed strenghtened by her actions that followed.

The future of the Royal House was never in doubt - they were losing the titles anyway. There are two possible reasons for this rush, as I see it: either the two elder former Princes did something that made QMII think they were denigrating the prestige of the Royal House (which cannot be announced because if it wasn't alrealy widely known, it would be unwise to shout it from the rooftops), or she miscalculated very badly indeed in her presentation. Either way, her assurances that she did it with only their wellbeing in mind sound ridiculous.

As to her royal colleagues all around Europe, it's out of place to make comparisons because first, the kids were always going to lose the titles anyway, which wasn't the case with many of the other Royal Houses. IOW, she only needed to wait, she didn't need to do anything. And second, literally everyone else executed it better.

This said, I hope Joachim's side of the family would consider stop talking to the press soon enough. They aren't helping anyone, themselves least of all.
 
The most damaging element of this in my opinion is the way it has exposed the lack of any real relationship between the Queen and Prince Joachim's children. I don't disagree with the comments that they should be talking this out privately but there doesn't seem to be the sort of relationship where either side feels comfortable enough to pick up the phone and speak. I agree with Muhler, I don't think things would have worked out this way if Henrik was still alive and well.
 
This mish-mash wouldn't have happened if Nikolai and Felix had been titled as Counts de Montpezat from the beginning (their births) and, eventually, elevated to the rank of the Princes only in case of His uncle Frederik's infertility.

The firstborn granddaughter of then Queen Beatrix was never a Princess, wasn't she?

In hindsight that would have been better but wasn't yet the norm in the 90s. In the Netherlands, upon the marriage of Constantijn and Laurentien it was already decided that any children they might have would be count and countess. It was the first time in well over a century there was a prince of the Netherlands getting married, so they couldn't really rely on how things had been done before (his cousins had personal titles (prince of Orange-Nassau) from birth).

FYI: At the time of the wedding, Willem-Alexander was engaged to Máxima (she even got her Dutch citizenship that same day as a birthday present) and when Eloise was born, Máxima was pregnant.

I really don't follow this family constantly, so I don't know much about Nikolai and Felix. Since their titles have been reduced, what happens to their official charity works that Royals seem to do. I notice others will drop in during the years to see how things are doing. Does losing their higher title also mean that they have lost their prestigious positions on their works for their personal charities which seems to go along with titles. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject but as an American, I am really just curious on exactly what the ramifications will be on these lads by having their titles reduced. Will it affect their job at all? I thank anyone that could explain the different title change and if this change will harm their future.

Their charity work won't be impacted as they don't do any charity work. There is a foubdation in their name that they've completely ignored (at least publicly). If I am not midtaken they've attended a few events with their mother (Ecco walk comes to mind) but that's about it. So, there is no official charity work that could be impacted.

The one thing I feel bad about for the Danish Royal Family as a whole is the field day the press is going to have at every single big family/royal events from here on out. If several members of HRH Prince Joachim's branch of the family don't show up, then there's going to be speculation that there's anger on either side of the rift. If they do, there's going to be all of the body-language "experts" writing long articles about how meaningful a scratch of a nose is.

Unless family members outside of the Royal House generally don't attend royal functions that are more familial in nature, like birthday parties. I confess that I don't know a lot about the Danish Royal Family.

The Danish royal family typically invites a wide range of family members (i.e., the queen's sisters and their children) for their big celebrations, so they will surely continue to be invited.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Danish royal family typically invites a wide range of family members (i.e., the queen's sisters and their children) for their big celebrations, so they will surely continue to be invited.

I agree with this- the question is whether they will continue to go given the breakdown in family relationships.
 
Maybe so, but again, she went about it the wrong way and has ended up with resentful family.

So she can enjoy feeling she did the right thing whilst being estranged from her eldest grandchildren.

"Resentful" and "estranged" pfffff....

For the same money all is well with the grandchildren and their Farmor Margrethe. Any of them looking furtherer than the length of their own nose will see the simple rationale behind this decision by their grandmother and Queen.

I agree with this- the question is whether they will continue to go given the breakdown in family relationships.

Breakdown in family relations?

So far only the divorced first spouse of Prince Joachim and the Prince himself have sought publicity. The four children had a more mature approach to this decision by their grandmother: they would continue to serve Denmark, no matter a title.

Yesterday Prince Joachim showed up, in all his finery, with all golden galon and orders on his uniform and complete with plumed hat, to give acte de presence. Princess Marie remained in her homeland France, as their youngest son was reportedly ill.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The most damaging element of this
in my opinion is the way it has exposed the lack of any real relationship between the Queen and Prince Joachim's children.
Actually, I don’t think that the relation between HM and the children
of Prince Joachim was bad before things came to a head.
We still don’t know the underlying reason for this sorry mess and
we never will, but I believe that there is one, other than
“ futureproofing” the DRF.
What I don’t get however, is that after the birth of her last and eighth
grandchild in 2012, HM apparently didn’t prepare Prince Joachim
for the necessity of reducing the number of royals further down
the road! Seriouly, she must have been able to count to eight back then?
 
Back
Top Bottom