New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[LadyJaneGrey]

Breakdown in family relations?

So far only the divorced first spouse of Prince Joachim and the Prince himself have sought publicity. The four children had a more mature approach to this decision by their grandmother: they would continue to serve Denmark, no matter a title.

Yesterday Prince Joachim showed up, in all his finery, with all golden galon and orders on his uniform and complete with plumed hat, to give acte de presence. Princess Marie remained in her homeland France, as their youngest son was reportedly ill.

In my opinion, yes. Nikolai's comments (and Marie's) make it clear that they are unhappy with the situation and there doesn't seem to have been any direct communication between Nikolai/Queen Margrethe. This gives the impression of a certain amount of family tenseness, although Joachim and Marie will probably continue to turn up to official events when they're invited.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Actually, I don’t think that the relation between HM and the children
of Prince Joachim was bad before things came to a head.
We still don’t know the underlying reason for this sorry mess and
we never will, but I believe that there is one, other than
“ futureproofing” the DRF.
What I don’t get however, is that after the birth of her last and eighth
grandchild in 2012, HM apparently didn’t prepare Prince Joachim
for the necessity of reducing the number of royals further down
the road! Seriouly, she must have been able to count to eight back then?

From all what is known, there has been ample consideration and discussion on the future of the Danish Royal House. In May 2022 the Queen made her intentions clear to her family. Apparently only in Oktober 2022 the Paris' clan seem to have realised that these intented plans would no longer be "intended" in three months time. For some reason they acted as struck by lightning: but that it took four months is telling about the capacity of the Prince to manage and understand processes, I am afraid to say.

 

[Viv]

From all what is known, there has been ample consideration and discussion on the future of the Danis Royal House. In May 2022 the Queen made her intentions clear to her family. Apparently only in Oktober 2022 the Paris' clan seem to have realised that these intented plans would no longer be "intended" in three months time. For some reason they acted as struck by lightning: but that it took four months is telling about the capacity of the Prince to manage and understand processes, I am afraid to say.

Well, being a Dane living in Denmark, I’m fully aware of that! My point
is that I don’t get why HM ( apparently!) didn’t bring up the title issue
with the Joachim family way before May 2022.

 

[camelot23ca]

Well, being a Dane living in Denmark, I’m fully aware of that! My point
is that I don’t get why HM ( apparently!) didn’t bring up the title issue
with the Joachim family way before May 2022.

Maybe she did. From things family members have said over the years I have the impression that Henrik was the more direct parent, while QM was more passive. If there was an uncomfortable conversation to be had, it would have been Henrik taking the lead in initiating it. I think she leaned on him a lot in family matters.

And Joachim has led an eventful life. Before frederik had children, the titles didn’t really matter. Then Joachim got divorced right around the time Frederik did start having kids, and he (Joachim) apparently struggled for awhile afterwards, so his parents may have decided it wasn’t the right time to bring the issue up. Then Joachim got married again and had two more children - also probably not the best time to seriously discuss taking the titles away. Then somewhere in there he sold Schackenborg, there were career changes, he moved to France, he had the stroke.. in addition to any other private issues we don’t know about. And of course Henrik was diagnosed with dementia, likely lost the ability to take the lead on family discussions, and then passed away.

So I do see how a serious discussion could have been postponed many times over the years, likely with good intentions, but yeah - in hindsight it should have been done immediately after Christian was born, no matter what else was going on.

 

[Viv]

Well, as far as the future pool of working royals go: after 2012 it was pretty
obvious that a total of eight grandchildren were surplus to requirements!

 

[kimebear]

Then Joachim got married again and had two more children - also probably not the best time to seriously discuss taking the titles away.

On the contrary, that was probably the best time to have the discussion. Before Henrik was born, QM should have brought Joachim, Marie and Alexandria in for a discussion and said "Okay, that's enough princes/princesses. Your children are Counts/Countesses from now on."

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If this summary correctly reflects what was said by Prince Joachim at his October 2007 press conference on the occasion of his engagement to Marie Cavallier, it would seem that the Queen spent some time deliberating over whether Marie should receive a Princess title upon marriage. Which might suggest that keeping down the number of Princesses and Princes was already on her mind 15 years ago.

https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot.com/2007/10/joachim-marie-press-conference.html

Wednesday, 3 October 2007

[...] A press conference with Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier has taken place this afternoon at Amalienborg.

Queen Margrethe has only recently decided Marie will have the title of princess. Joachim said this was not his decision to make, but another's (meaning the Queen).

I have not found a transcript of Prince Joachim's comments at that 2007 press conference. Should anyone have it, I would appreciate it.

 

[maria-olivia]

In Denmark they are really Counts ad Countess.
In France it is contreversal , but I don't want to come back to the discussions about the Family in the past.

 

[Bonastre]

What a public humiliation! And completely unnecessary! I very much doubt they will ever forgive their grandmother.

 

[muriel]

What a public humiliation! And completely unnecessary! I very much doubt they will ever forgive their grandmother.

I am not sure I understand the key reasons for your suggested umbrage. The monarch is the font of all titles and if the Queen decides that descendants of cadet branches no longer need titles, then so be it. What is the big deal?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What a public humiliation! And completely unnecessary! I very much doubt they will ever forgive their grandmother.

No public humiliation. Just common sense and a wise decision to keep the monarchy future-proof.

Descendants walking around for 60, 70, 80 more years, without any role in the Royal House but nevertheless being Prince (Princess) of Denmark....

When the three sons of Prince Joachim would marry, they would even add more persons with the title Princess of Denmark (aside from the future spouses of their cousins Prince Christian and Prince Vincent).

It was only wise to limit the Royal House, as many other monarchies have done (most of these essentially focusing on the present King, the future King, the former King and their spouses).

 

[muriel]

No public humiliation. Just common sense and a wise decision to keep the monarchy future-proof.

Descendants walking around for 60, 70, 80 more years, without any role in the Royal House but nevertheless being Prince (Princess) of Denmark....

When the three sons of Prince Joachim would marry, they would even add more persons with the title Princesses of Denmark (aside from the future spouses of their cousins Prince Christian and Prince Vincent).

It was only wise to limit the Royal House, as many other monarchies have done (most of these essentially focusing on the present King, the future King, the former King and their spouses).

Well said.

Take the example of Prince & Princess Michael of Kent. They are so far from the throne, yet retain their titles. Much neater to have a system to limit the titles.

 

[Bonastre]

Well said.

Take the example of Prince & Princess Michael of Kent. They are so far from the throne, yet retain their titles. Much neater to have a system to limit the titles.

Such a limit may be wise, but it should have been prescribed for the future born, from now on. To strip her grandchildren of their princely dignity is a full slap on the face. No wonder they're so sore!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Such a limit may be wise, but it should have been prescribed for the future born, from now on. To strip her grandchildren of their princely dignity is a full slap on the face. No wonder they're so sore!

Back then the Crown Prince waa single and with no partner in sight. With only two Heirs, it was thought wise to have her first grandchild included.

Now the Crown Prince is blessed with four children. In a foreseable future Prince Christian will start his own family. Prince Joachim has married a second time and added more to the many grandchildren of Queen Margarethe.

The monarchy is no time capsule under a glass dome. Situations change and it has changed very much. It is wise to adapt to the changed situation.

 

[MissJanet]

I don't see how this is a slap in the face. I mean, they are young men - how is it too much to expect them to actual live normal lives, maybe (god forbid) even work for their income instead of just being spoiled princes? They are still privileged and rich.

Their continued public pouting is tone-deaf and frankly, embarrassing. They should really read the room.

I do think that their parents play an important role in this royal soap opera, they too should get a grip and get over it. Joachim seems to really have issues with being the spare, he comes off entitled and aggressive towards his mother. Not a good look either.

 

[kimebear]

Back then the Crown Prince waa single and with no partner in sight. With only two Heirs, it was thought wise to have her first grandchild included.

It's not Nikolai's or Felix's fault that their uncle took his sweet time finding a bride and having an heir of his own.

To put it in your terms, it sounds an awful lot like QM telling her oldest grandchildren "well, we don't need you now, so down the titled ladder you go". Better to have made a permanent decision at the onset, instead of this ham handed mess they have now. Titling them Counts from birth would have not hurt them, and they could have always been elevated later if necessary. To strip them this late in life is just mean.

 

[southwind]

It's not Nikolai's or Felix's fault that their uncle took his sweet time finding a bride and having an heir of his own.

To put it in your terms, it sounds an awful lot like QM telling her oldest grandchildren "well, we don't need you now, so down the titled ladder you go". Better to have made a permanent decision at the onset, instead of this ham handed mess they have now. Titling them Counts from birth would have not hurt them, and they could have always been elevated later if necessary. To strip them this late in life is just mean.

Exactly! And taking your own grandchildren's last name must be completely humiliating for them. It's not only about a title.

 

[Bonastre]

Back then the Crown Prince waa single and with no partner in sight. With only two Heirs, it was thought wise to have her first grandchild included.

It was not that. The immemorial rule was that all descendants in the male line of a Danish King were princes or princesses of Denmark. It was their bornright, not a concession.


If that rule must be changed, the change should not have had a retroactive effect. Laws restrictive of rights never have.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't see how this is a slap in the face. I mean, they are young men - how is it too much to expect them to actual live normal lives, maybe (god forbid) even work for their income instead of just being spoiled princes? They are still privileged and rich.

Their continued public pouting is tone-deaf and frankly, embarrassing. They should really read the room.

I do think that their parents play an important role in this royal soap opera, they too should get a grip and get over it. Joachim seems to really have issues with being the spare, he comes off entitled and aggressive towards his mother. Not a good look either.

Taking their titles changes nothing about having to "work for a living", because having the titles granted them nothing except a status as their grandmother's family — one where they were already designated as lesser than their cousins and were expecting to lose anyway when they got married, not in this abrupt and hurtful manner. Are you expecting their 13 year-old brother and 10 year-old sister should immediately go work for a living as well?

And there is no "they", let alone "continued public pouting". Nikolai is the only one who's said anything, and that's because the press knows he speaks for his siblings. He made one brief (rather dignified) remark in light of the new circumstances that people are determined to latch on to as entitled or whiny.

Nikolai and Felix were virtually model princes as compared to many, many, many others, and I fail completely to understand the need to denigrate them in the wake of this, as if to prove they somehow "deserved it".

 

[Mbruno]

Well said.

Take the example of Prince & Princess Michael of Kent. They are so far from the throne, yet retain their titles. Much neater to have a system to limit the titles.

It is not rocket science actually. Several European monarchies seem to have converged to a similar consensus: HRH Prince/Princess titles (or equivalent) for children of the Sovereign, or children of the heir to the throne only, which is already a large number of people. There is still some disagreement on how consorts should be styled, for example, if husbands of princesses should also get titles, or if titles by marriage should apply to wives of princes only, or if neither husbands nor wives should be titled at all.

 

[FigTree]

It is not rocket science actually. Several European monarchies seem to have converged to a similar consensus: HRH Prince/Princess titles (or equivalent) for children of the Sovereign, or children of the heir to the throne only, which is already a large number of people. There is still some disagreement on how consorts should be styled, for example, if husbands of princesses should also get titles, or if titles by marriage should apply to wives of princes only, or if neither husbands nor wives should be titled at all.

They shouldn’t be titled at all. Top job spouse probably has to be but otherwise no. They should be allowed to have their own careers too…also top job may be hard.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The immemorial rule was that all descendants in the male line of a Danish King were princes or princesses of Denmark. It was their bornright, not a concession.

That would be news to the dozens of Counts and Countesses of Rosenborg, Princes and Princesses of Schleswig-Holstein, Princes and Princesses of Norway, and Princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who are descendants in male line of Danish kings.

The vast majority of male-line descendants of Danish kings who were alive on December 31, 2022 were not Princes or Princesses to/of Denmark.

If that rule must be changed, the change should not have had a retroactive effect. Laws restrictive of rights never have.

The change took effect on living persons. But it was not retroactive, because it only applies to titles on and after January 1, 2023.

By definition, a retroactive change is applied to the past. A hypothetical decision that Prince Joachim's children's princely titles had never truly existed would be retroactive. A decision that Prince Joachim's children will discontinue their princely titles is not retroactive.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/retroactive

 

[Bonastre]

That would be news to the dozens of Counts and Countesses of Rosenborg, Princes and Princesses of Schleswig-Holstein, Princes and Princesses of Norway, and Princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who are descendants in male line of Danish kings.

The vast majority of male-line descendants of Danish kings who were alive on December 31, 2022 were not Princes or Princesses to/of Denmark.

Of course some of them renounced their title for them and their descendants (such as the Duke of Edinburgh) or lost it by contracting unequal marriages or simply did not use it. But the Greek Royals are princes of Greece and of Denmark, six generations away from Christian IX, even after they were excluded from the line of succession.

 

[kimebear]

But the Greek Royals are princes of Greece and of Denmark, six generations away from Christian IX, even after they were excluded from the line of succession.

Which makes it even more egregious that deposed Queen Anne Marie's grandchildren are Princes/Princess of Denmark and reigning Queen Margrethe's grandchildren are not.

 

[FigTree]

Which makes it even more egregious that deposed Queen Anne Marie's grandchildren are Princes/Princess of Denmark and reigning Queen Margrethe's grandchildren are not.

That has nothing to do with her. It’s because the Danish Prince came to Greece. They aren’t Princes of Denmark; it’s a Greek title.

 

[kimebear]

That has nothing to do with her. It’s because the Danish Prince came to Greece. They aren’t Princes of Denmark; it’s a Greek title.

'Of Denmark" is still part of their title. It doesn't matter what branch they came down as the Danish court still recognizes these titles as courtesy during the various events they attend.

 

[JGio]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

Well said.



Take the example of Prince & Princess Michael of Kent. They are so far from the throne, yet retain their titles. Much neater to have a system to limit the titles.

Honestly I don’t mind at all that the Michaels of Kent are Princes in the UK. I tend to be more conservative on this.

I really doubt commoners bother that much about how many retain a princely title in their country. They are more concerned with where taxpayers money goes. But if a grandson of The King is a Prince (by law and LP), works in a bank asking no public money, I don’t see any reason why he should be stripped of the title he was born with.

This whole concept of “working royals” is pissing me off very much. Why having a royal family if you don’t like inequalities. Royalty is inequality in its essence. Titles should be more linked to blood and less to how much you work.

Then, if a Prince sees the title is hindering its independence, he should be entitled to renounce it and go on privately.

But it is so toxic to “kindly punish” Princes and Princesses not devoting their whole lifetime to the Monarchy by stripping their titles. If my grandfather were The King, I see no wrong in being a Prince and just have a private life, detached from the RF.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Of course some of them renounced their title for them and their descendants (such as the Duke of Edinburgh) or lost it by contracting unequal marriages or simply did not use it. But the Greek Royals are princes of Greece and of Denmark, six generations away from Christian IX, even after they were excluded from the line of succession.

I do agree completely that allowing the former royals of Greece and their male-line descendants to retain the title Prince or Princess of Denmark is no longer appropriate in 2023 (especially given that the daughter of the former crown prince of Greece used it for commercial purposes by calling herself Princess of Greece and Denmark in a promotional video). But at least they do not use the "of Denmark" most of the time.

'Of Denmark" is still part of their title. It doesn't matter what branch they came down as the Danish court still recognizes these titles as courtesy during the various events they attend.

It is interesting to see how the former queen of Greece and her children were referred to on the guestlist for the jubilee theater performance. Like the members of the Danish Royal House (and unlike the children of Benedikte), Anne-Marie and her children were referred to by royal titles without a surname or territorial designation (neither "of Greece" nor "of Denmark" was used). However, with the exception of Anne-Marie, the titles were written in English (not Greek), rather than Danish.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/gaesteliste-ved-gallaforestilling-i-det-kongelige-teater

Den Kongelige Familie
Hendes Majestæt Dronningen
Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsessen
Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Isabella
Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Marie
Hans Højhed Prins Nikolai
Hans Højhed Prins Felix
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Benedikte
Hendes Højhed Prinsesse Alexandra zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
Kammerherre, hofjægermester, greve Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille
Hendes Højhed Prinsesse Nathalie zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
Hendes Majestæt Dronning Anne-Marie
Her Royal Highness Princess Alexia
Don Carlos Morales Quintana
His Royal Highness Crown Prince Pavlos
Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Marie-Chantal
Her Royal Highness Princess Theodora
Mr Matthew Kumar
His Royal Highness Prince Philippos
Her Royal Highness Princess Nina​

 

[kimebear]

Like the members of the Danish Royal House (and unlike the children of Benedikte), Anne-Marie and her children were referred to by royal titles without a surname or territorial designation (neither "of Greece" nor "of Denmark" was used). However, with the exception of Anne-Marie, the titles were written in English (not Greek), rather than Danish.

I see this as just another mish-mash way of handling titles in the Danish court. It's a very 'fly by the seat of your pants' method of treating titles on behalf of the protocol office.

'Well, they're technically Princes/Princesses of Greece and Denmark, so let's list them without the titles like our reigning house members. But we'll write it in English, so that it's different.'

It's like they're just tossing darts at a board at this point.

 

[FigTree]

I see this as just another mish-mash way of handling titles in the Danish court. It's a very 'fly by the seat of your pants' method of treating titles on behalf of the protocol office.

'Well, they're technically Princes/Princesses of Greece and Denmark, so let's list them without the titles like our reigning house members. But we'll write it in English, so that it's different.'

It's like they're just tossing darts at a board at this point.

They are a deposed royal family. Their titles are like those of all those Russians wandering round after the First World War…I.E. useless and meaningless.

All of the royal houses let them have those curtesy titles and acknowledge thrm as such. It’s a bit barmy.