Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

Note on the dates.

Russia switched from the O.S. [old style] which was the Julian calendar to the N.S.[new style] on 1 Feb. 1918. [They could have made it easier and started on the first of the year.

For example, the 31st of January 1918 became 14 Feb 1918.

Before this change the general rule of thumb was, the 1900s was 13 days, the 1800s was 12 days and in the 1700s it was 11 days and 10 days in the 1600.

Example:

1 Feb 1600 [O.S.] was 11 Feb. 1600 [N.S.] in Europe who used the so-called new Gregorian calendar.
1 Feb 1700 [O.S.] was 12 Feb 1700 [N.S.]
1 Feb 1800 [O.S.] was 13 Feb 1800 [N.S.]
1 Feb 1900 [O.S.] was 14 Feb. 1900

Bolsheviks changed to the Gregorian calendar in Feb. [O.S.] to March 1918 [N.S.] and it has continued.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Yesterday I was asked the following question on my forum:

>>...In "The False Anastasia" Gilliard refers to the photo of the car with the Swastika on it. According to him, it was published in a book in 1923, and showed to AA by Nicholai Schwabe. The problem is that AA did not stay with the Schwabes after the beginning of 1923. Could anyone throw some more light on this? <<

Can someone help me with the answer?

Thanks.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Grand Duchesses recieved their regiments:


Olga received her regiment on 11 July 1909, her name day; her birthday was 3/16 Nov 1895, which means she was 13 years old in July 1909

Tatiana received her regiment on 12 January 1910, her name day; her birthday was 29 May/10 June 1897, which means she was 12 years old in Jan. of 1910

We've mentioned the sources. Now for the next two.

So where do we find the regimental sources for Maria and Anastasia?

tian, who knows way more about their lives than Bear, tells us the dates:
Maria received her regiment on 14/26 June 1912; her year of birth was 1899 so she was 13

Anastasia received her regiment on 5/18 June 1915 which was her actual birthday and not her name day; her year of birth was 1901 so she was 14

 

[tsarskoe]

Great work on all the dates with regards to the regiments Tian! And thank you Bear for clarifying the calendars which gets very confusing.

I think AA must have assumed that the elders sisters had gotten their regiments at older ages than Anastasia due to the prevalence of photographs showing Olga and Tatiana in their mid teens in their regimental uniforms-AA must have mistaken the photographs as marking the occasions when they were first awarded their regiments. [The photographs usually circulated were taken after the start of the war-AA had no way of knowing that they had been awarded well before then and hence she misspoke about her "sisters" receiving their regiments when they were older than herself-when the reverse was true.]

Personally, I believe the fact that AA could recall the names of all of the other Duchess's regiments but not "her" [Anastasia's] own is equally substantial proof that she was not Anastasia.

 

[tsarskoe]

Bear, with regards to the Swastika photograph I am afraid I may have inaccurately assumed that AA had seen it in 1923, that date was mentioned not by Captain Schwabe but by Count Schulenbourg through whom Gilliard discovered the photographs existence. [Although it is quite possible that it was in 1923 when she had seen it]

In La Fausse Anastasie Pierre Gilliard states that he saw the photograph (of the Empress in the car with the Swastika on the hood) in the collection of Count Schulenbourg. When he asked the Count where he had gotten it from the Count stated he had received it from the Supreme Council of Russian monarchists of Berlin. He also stated that he had gotten in it 1923, not that it had been published in 1923 as I had indicated before. Gilliard then contacted Schwabe who stated that he had during one of his "visits" with AA between June and July (Note the word "visits". As to where AA was staying at that time I am uncertain). He states that he gave her the series of photographs edited by L'Etendard, one of which was the photograph in question. Hope this clarifies the matter.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Back to the boring, rehashed language subject, working with the elderly, I recently found out something interesting. There is an old lady in the rest home I'm working at who was from Germany, so naturally German was her first language and she learned English as an adult. After a stroke, she forgot English but still knew German. The doctors said nobody ever forgets- regardless of stroke, trauma, whatever, their first language learned as a baby, (they can have speech problems but that's not the same thing as not knowing/understanding the words) but they can forget languages learned later. The woman eventually recalled her English, she had to, since none of the staff spoke German. So this is another knock against AA using German as her main language. AN never would have forgotten Russian and English in favor of barely known German. But of course it doesn't really matter, since the DNA has officially proven her a fake, but just adding this info due to the issue having been discussed.

 

[Russophile]

That's interesting because my full-blooded Norwegian grandmother forgot all her native tongue when she got older. She used to kick herself for not remembering it. All she knew was Trilla Lilla. (Humpty-Dumpty)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

That is different, a lot of people forget the language they learned as a young child if they don't grow up using it. I don't believe anyone who was grown before they started using another one would ever totally forget their language though. I'm talking about forgetting as in being blocked out by memory loss caused by stroke or trauma. And also don't forget that it was Feb. 1920, any alleged "Anastasia" would have had only a year and a half to totally forget Russian, English and French and learn and use only German.

Anyone ever wonder why she never spoke or knew Romanian?

 

[Russophile]

That is different, a lot of people forget the language they learned as a young child if they don't grow up using it. I don't believe anyone who was grown before they started using another one would ever totally forget their language though.

Her sister Hilda was 13 years her senior and only remembered The Lord's Prayer in her native tongue.

 

[COUNTESS]

No one forgets a language they spoke frequently in a year and a half. My mother came to the U.S. when she was six and cannot remember ever speaking another language, except English and she is 93 today. I am sure had Anastasia lived, in 1920 she would have remembered the languages she spoke in 1918.

 

[AGRBear]

That is different, a lot of people forget the language they learned as a young child if they don't grow up using it. I don't believe anyone who was grown before they started using another one would ever totally forget their language though. I'm talking about forgetting as in being blocked out by memory loss caused by stroke or trauma. And also don't forget that it was Feb. 1920, any alleged "Anastasia" would have had only a year and a half to totally forget Russian, English and French and learn and use only German.

Anyone ever wonder why she never spoke or knew Romanian?

You are wrong.

AWF: >>The doctors said nobody ever forgets- regardless of stroke, trauma, whatever, their first language learned as a baby<<

"The doctors said" !????

Perhaps the doctors with whom you spoke didn't understand what you were asking. People do and can forget their first language.

If AA was GD Anastasia, and, she refused to speak Russian, which she never used all that much anyway, then she could have forgotten it.

According to some witnesses, AA did understand and speak Russian in Dalldorf and later. I was impressed by the judge, who was part of AA's trial, who believed AA could fluently understand Russian. I don't recall if she spoke Russian to him. And, there was the nurse at Dalldorf who had lived in Russia has told us that AA's Russian was not only fluent but spoke proper Russian. I have no reason to not believe these two witnesses. And, as far as I can tell after posting after posting of AWF, she has nothing which tells me otherwise.

Unlike AWF, I'm not taking sides. I'm trying to pull out what we do know, and, what we know is AA could understand and speak Russian by the time she jumped into the canal in Berlin.

So, where did AA learn the language? And from whom? And why?

We know nothing about AA if she wasn't FS.

We know a great deal about FS if AA was AA.

If AA was FS, when did she learn Russian? Was it in the asparagus fields, the bottle factory, while she was a waitress.....? Her boyfriend, who was killed in the war, wasn't Russian. She grew up where German was spoken in her schools. They stopped speaking Kasbubian in their home.... No one in her family ever heard her speak Russian.... We don't know anything about her friends or even if she had any friends....

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, there is no proof at all AA could speak and understand Russian other than he said-she saids here and there from her supporters. She was never able to prove she could speak or write it, and even in the 60's and 70's was using the 'trauma from Ekaterinburg' as an excuse. When people first started going to see her in the 20's they reported she was not responsive in any language other than German. This is extremely odd for a person raised speaking English and Russian. Bux and Olga both said she whispered questions to the nurses in German and showed no understanding of Russian or English. It's also extremely odd that a native Russian speaker (if she were AN) would refuse to speak her own language to another native Russian speaker (such as Olga or Felix Y.) and rely on German instead. The real reason for this, of course, is that AA wasn't AN, she was FS, who knew German best.

 

[AGRBear]

Ahhhhh, testimony does go something like:

"he said" and "she said".

BUT! we're not talking about over hearing someone saying she was a nurse or a doctor at Dalldorf. We're talking about testimony in the German court by the people who were there taking care of AA.

Either you accept what they told the judges or you do not. I see no reason not to believe them. You seem to think they were liars. Have you any proof they were liars. Any testimony that would damage their credibility? No.


The one nurse did make a mistake in providing a newspaper a date which was off a year or as newspapers can do, they made a mistake and the year was off by one. Whomever made the mistake, it has been corrected and proven the nurse was no longer at Dalldorf but was the previous year and this is where the date, now, stands.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As I have stated many, many times before, in every court case, there is 'testimony' from people who 'swear' (though in Germany swearing isn't necessary) what they say is the truth. Yet in EVERY court case, one side turns out to be wrong. Therefore, we may logically conclude that the people who testified on the wrong side were either lying or mistaken. The AA case also had 'testimony' from people who were vehemently against her and did not believe her. These people turned out to be right. Those who testified in AA's favor turned out to be wrong.

Were some lying to help her case? Were some hoping for a payoff from Grandanor? Were some so nostalgic they were blinded by wishful thinking? Or did some not know the real AN, or remember her, as much as they had claimed? We will never know, but thanks to the DNA, we now have a right and a wrong answer-those who said AA was AN were wrong, those who said she wasn't were right.

 

[AGRBear]

You are missing the point entirely, AWF.

I am not taking sides. I don't even think AA was FS or GD Anastasia.

According to nurses and doctors, AA could speak Russian and she did so fluently and properly while in Dalldorf. So why do you keep insisting that she could not? And why do you insist the nurses and doctors were lying or mistaken when you have no proof?

Since the one nurse had been a teacher in Russia and knew Russian and German, this even adds to the evidence that AA could speak proper Russian.

The doctors, who worked in Berlin, were certainly aware of the differences between German, Polish and Russian.

Your reasoning carries no weight.

As for others who held their opinions later, we can deal with them one at a time.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No, Bear, YOU are missing the point- the entire case you build is 'according to'- this is what I mean by 'he said she said', because NONE of it can be proven. In fact, 'according to' others such as Olga, Felix Y. and Bux, she could NOT speak the languages. You do NOT know that the nurses knew the difference between the languages, or that any of those alleged incidents even occured! So it all comes down to whom you choose to believe, and apparently you choose to believe a lot of unsubstantiated, unproveable comments by random people who may or may not have had ulterior motives. The reason I think you must believe in AA being AN is that in the last 4+ years I've known you on various boards, EVERY post of yours supports or at least argues the possibility of that position, while NONE EVER take the other side or are even objective. If you really want 'the truth' you're looking in the wrong places. It's right under your nose, and has been for the last 14 years.

 

[AGRBear]

The nurses and doctors are not just some people who walked off the street, said, "Howdy" and then left AA in her bed at Dalldorf.

They saw her day after day after day.

They were trying to discover who AA was and help her.

You, AWF, sit at your computer and type away as if you were there. These people were there. They gave testimony to what they saw, heard and experienced.

If the Judges had thought they were lying, they would have had them swear on the bible. That's the way it worked in those days in the German courts.

You tell me that the nurses and doctors didn't know the difference between the various languages. You are talking about educated people, who lived in Berlin, which was a city of different nationalities. Most Europeans spoke more than one language, unlike here in the USA.

As to my opinion: I do not believe AA is FS or GD Anastasia. I think she is a mystery yet to be solved.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Testimony of a Dalldorf nurse Erna Bucholz.

PETER Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:
p. 10

>>...Nurse Bucholz and been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...later she recalled an event had taken place...in the summer of 1920.<<

Let me incert here about whom Erna Bucholz was. She was a nurse but before the war she had taught German in Russia and knew how to speak Russian. It was she who testified that AA could speak Russian:

>>...I asked her if she could speak Russian. She answered, "Yes," whereupon We began to converse in Russian. She did not speak it faultily. Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments... I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completly conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters."

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

All the Kurth quotes and decades old commentary from this and that person prove nothing. People on the other side said the opposite. You can speculate all you want on how educated they were, what they knew, and who was truthful or not. Some who went to see AA found the staff suspect, being a doctor or nurse doesn't make you perfect and above being dishonest or helping someone with their claim. All we know is that AA did not use the language in public where she could prove it, so we don't know if those who spoke to her privately were telling the truth. We also know that she was not AN.

 

[AGRBear]

All the Kurth quotes and decades old commentary from this and that person prove nothing. People on the other side said the opposite. You can speculate all you want on how educated they were, what they knew, and who was truthful or not. Some who went to see AA found the staff suspect, being a doctor or nurse doesn't make you perfect and above being dishonest or helping someone with their claim. All we know is that AA did not use the language in public where she could prove it, so we don't know if those who spoke to her privately were telling the truth. We also know that she was not AN.

I don't suspect the word of the doctors and nurses involved with the sample of AA's intestines at the Martha Jefferson Hosptial, just as I don't suspect the word of the doctors and nurses at Dalldorf. Why? I don't have any evidence to tell me otherwise.

Just because AA did speak Russian to some and not to others isn't a surprise. This is consistent with AA's character as we know her after she ended up in the Berlin canal.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I don't suspect the word of the doctors and nurses involved with the sample of AA's intestines at the Martha Jefferson Hosptial, just as I don't suspect the word of the doctors and nurses at Dalldorf. Why? I don't have any evidence to tell me otherwise.

There were checks and balances and paper trails and computers involved in the record keeping at the modern hospital, that's a whole lot more than second and third hand word of mouth from the 20's. Also, I believe I've read that some of those involved in the Charlottesville end were hoping for AA to turn out to be AN and were disappointed she wasn't. Did you know even Dr. Melton was once an AA fan? But they accepted the fact that in the end science proved she wasn't, and didn't make up odd theories.

I can't understand why anyone would cover up AA being AN, wouldn't it be much more exciting if she were? Look at the added tourism for Charlottesville if they could tout "Anastasia's" home as part of their historical tour! Russia too! An escaped princess is much more fun than a dead one. So the idea these officials faked it really doesn't make sense.

Just because AA did speak Russian to some and not to others isn't a surprise. This is consistent with AA's character as we know her after she ended up in the Berlin canal.

AGRBear

Convenient, eh? Speak it to supporters and not to those who don't accept you? More likely, she didn't speak it to those who denied her because she couldn't, and the supporters were either mistaking Polish for Russian, or covering for her.

The very claim by supporters that she could and did speak Russian is actually very hurtful and contradictory to her long time excuse that she was too 'traumatized' by 'Ekaterinburg' to speak it again. So what was she only periodically traumatized? See the holes filling with water here?

 

[tsarskoe]

Might I suggest, with regards to the question of the languages AA spoke, that we actually post the quotes from those who claimed she did or did not speak various languages. I will be happy to post some myself. This way one can measure the weight of each claim.

 

[Stepan]

The whole question about what languages AA knew or diden´t know doesen´t make sense. Some nurses at Dalldorf said she could speak Russian fluently and I don´t know what to believe or think about it. If that is true why did she never speak Russian after she left Dalldorf? Exept for some words and phrases spoken from time to time! People around her realized that she could understand it but when asked to speak it she always refused. Xenia Leeds said she once heard her speak good Russian to her birds but when she approached her she stopped at once. She must have had a very strong reason not to speak Russian and I think she knew she would have been exposed. Because I really think she could both understand and speak it but not as a native Russian. And native Russians would ofcourse have noticed it at once. She spent long periods of time with Russian emigrants,Schwabe,Kleist,the Leuchtenbergs and others. So obviously she learned a lot there. Not only the Russian language but other facts about life around the imperial family. And what about her meeting with Gibbes,her old English teacher? She chose to speak German with him! And hiding her face behind a newspaper. I cannot imagine the real grand duchess would have behaved in such a way.It´s absurd really! But what a fascinating person she must have been!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Good points, Stepan. Yes it is ridiculous how she only used German, even to her French and English tutors, and native Russian speakers like Felix and Olga. Obviously, German was the only language she felt comfortable with, another glaring finger pointing to her being FS.

Might I suggest, with regards to the question of the languages AA spoke, that we actually post the quotes from those who claimed she did or did not speak various languages.

We have. Many MANY MANY times, in this thread, whenever it came up Chat and I both posted and reposted until I got tired of the repetition and was afraid I was boring others.That's why I stopped posting the direct quotes. I also have a section on it on my website. But if it's so far back buried in the "War and Peace" that is this thread that people aren't finding it I could do it again, if you want to have a go at it.

 

[AGRBear]

Yes, Stephen, AA, whomever she was, is a fascinating study.

Might I suggest, with regards to the question of the languages AA spoke, that we actually post the quotes from those who claimed she did or did not speak various languages. I will be happy to post some myself. This way one can measure the weight of each claim.

tsarskoe, I agree.

I've mention nurse Bucholz because she had been a teacher in Russia. And her testimony states that AA's Russian was fluent and more than just a sprinkle of words here and there. Evidently there was more than one conversation.

p. 10, Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON, Bucholz continues:

>>...I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters.<<

Having lived in Russia, Bucholz could speak Russian. She conversed in Russian. And she knew the difference between the Russian spoken by the peasants and the educated Russian.

Before we leap off to later years, let's look a little longer at what the people at Dalldorf testified. This was a time before Schwabe and the others outside and in what was to be her future as AA.

Kurt wrote p. 10:

>>All the members of the Dalldorf nursing staff could confirm that when Fraulein Unbekannt spoke about Russia she spoke confidently and precisely.<<

>>"She showed in her conversation such a thorough knowledge of the geography, " said one, "and so sure a grasp of the politics, that I would tell she was a lady..."<<

It would have been better if the nurse had said that AA appeared to be well educated but in those times education was usually linked to wealth, so, that is how she percieved AA, a woman of high society, a woman who just might have been GD Anastasia.

Could AA have gotten such information from just the magazines at Dalldorf?
I've never seen the magazines introduced to us in these testimonies, so, I can't give an opinion. According to Kurth's book, Dalldorf did have magazines which carry stories of the Romanovs from 1914 to 1918, including their deaths.

Nurse Malinovsky's and Bertha Walz's testimonies are mention on p. 11 to p. 12 and through them we learn more about AA's interest in the magazines, one being the BERLINER ILLUSTRIERTE.

-----
I just googled this magazine and saw some interesting illustrations of the magazine:

http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=BERLINER+ILLUSTRIERTE&&sa=N&start=18&ndsp=18

One of the articles in German talks about the Berlin Illustrater:

>>The Berliner Zeitung Illustrirte (BIS) as illustrated weekly magazine founded in 1891, the first regular edition appeared on 4 January 1892. As in 1894, the journal of Leopold Ullstein (Ullstein publishing house) were purchased. It was the first German mass newspaper. Technical innovations, such as the offset-intaglio, which Zeilensetzmaschine or the cost of paper production led to the BIS at a price of 10 pfennig then a week in the streets of Berlin was sold. This was even affordable for workers.


>> The first - and then sensationally perceived - frontispiece shows the photographic inclusion of a group in a ship accident killed officer corps.

>>... 1902, it was also technically possible, the latest photos.... This was considered outrageous innovation.<<

>>At the end of the Weimar Republic the BIS reached a circulation of nearly two million copies. During the period of National Socialism was the Family Publishers and distributed the paper brought temporarily into the clutches of Nazi propagandists. ...<<



AGRBear

 

[Pier Gerlofs Donia]

She just was the Grand Duchess, no doubt about it! Sadly enough she got cremated, now we will never know for sure...

 

[Menarue]

She just was the Grand Duchess, no doubt about it! Sadly enough she got cremated, now we will never know for sure...

Who? Franzisca? AA? The real Grand Duchess found where she was buried?

 

[Pier Gerlofs Donia]

Who? Franzisca? AA? The real Grand Duchess found where she was buried?

I assume the woman we all know as Anna Anderson really was Grand Duchess Anastasia. You see, I always loved fairytales and this tastes like one although the ending is sad.

 

[Menarue]

I assume the woman we all know as Anna Anderson really was Grand Duchess Anastasia. You see, I always loved fairytales and this tastes like one although the ending is sad.

I always liked fairy tales too, but this was straight out of the Brothers Grimm unabridged edition. I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone who would impersonate someone who died in such horrific circumstances, it was the most horrible murder and I find it sad that anyone would even want to be thought of as that poor murdered girl.
Fairy tales for me end with "and they all lived happily after" and that definitely didn´t happen for anyone one implicated in this terrible episode.
I do understand what you mean, I think, perhaps you would like to think thatat least one of the family survived, it would be a nicer ending to the story than being dug up and having your blackened bones sent to laboratories and studied....

 

[Pier Gerlofs Donia]

Indeed, so I thought. But I do not think Anderson was very happy either... her presumed family never recognised her and when she was really some eastern girl imperonating Anastasia, she would never have seen her family again because she moved to the US. She never had any children, or real family and she must have been lonely and miserable even under the attention she got. If Anastasia died in there with her family, at least she would have been dead immediately instead of living a long unhappy life.

As Kurt Cobain said: "it is better to burn out then to fade away", well this certainly applies for she will never be forgotten.

Princess Xenia Georgievna, who had played with Anastasia when they were children, was of the opinion that Anna Anderson was Anastasia and didn't change her mind even when she asked Anderson to leave her home.