Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Here is a link that finds Drescher a member of the Nazi party, and who continues his services witht the police after the war:

BKA in der Hand von Alt-Nazis? - Die braunen Wurzeln des BKA - Kultur - sueddeutsche.de

Und der Chef der Personenfeststellungszentrale und der Fingerabdrucksammlung im RKPA Heinz Drescher wurde Chef des Erkennungsdienstes des BKA

 

[Menarue]

No matter who AA was, the story is fascinating. And personally, I do not think at all that she was FS. Of course, that is only my opinion, but some people seem to get very upset at those whose opinion differs from their own. But then again, if nobody wanted to protect the young and the helpless from people like me, there would be no discussion about this subject, would it! So sit up straight and take notes. Who knows, you might learn something.

Well through my half asleep mind I have understood that you don´t think that AA was FS, but of course you were wide awake and you understood exactly what I was saying. AA was not AN and that is the farce I was referring to as you well know.
I really couldn´t care less if AA was FS or if they spoke Hindustani, the victims were the IRF and in this case poor little Grand Duchess Anastasia is being victimised again and that really makes me annoyed. The poor girls have been dead for such a long time I think they should be allowed to rest in peace.

 

[ChatNoir]

Well through my half asleep mind I have understood that you don´t think that AA was FS, but of course you were wide awake and you understood exactly what I was saying. AA was not AN and that is the farce I was referring to as you well know.
I really couldn´t care less if AA was FS or if they spoke Hindustani, the victims were the IRF and in this case poor little Grand Duchess Anastasia is being victimised again and that really makes me annoyed. The poor girls have been dead for such a long time I think they should be allowed to rest in peace.

Victimised????

 

[Menarue]

Yes, victimised. By trying to prove that poor deluded woman, AA, was a Grand Duchess, in this case GD Anastasia, insults the real Grand Duchess´s memory, and in that way, long after her terrible death even the thought that someone was impersonating her and trying to fool her surviving loved ones is a form of victimization, even though, of course she could never know this as by this time she was just a little pile of bones.

 

[ChatNoir]

If this is so disturbing to you, why do you keep reading all the posts, as you obviously do? I find it rather strange that you participate so willingly in this "insult of the Grand Duchess' memory."

 

[Menarue]

I would never insult the memory of the Grand Duchess, the idea of accepting an impostor as the Grand Duchess against all rational arguments, including dna is an insult. The idea of accepting a person who was probably not fit to kiss the boots of the Grand Duchess and entering into AA´s game of make believe royalty, that is the ultimate insult, not only to the GDA but to any of her family who have survived. If you really want to know what the living family think about this then write to her cousin who played with her and her sisters in happy days, and ask him what he thinks of your defence of this poor deluded creature AA. Mind you I have my doubts that Prince Philip will even bother to answer such an outlandish question but you could always try.

 

[ChatNoir]

As far as I remember, her cousin Xenia acknowledged AA as Grand Duchess Anastasia. And her "uncle" Andrew did the same thing.

 

[Shaiya]

Why will this topic never die!?!?!?!?!?! AA wasn't Grand Duchess Anastasia. I don't know if she was FS, but that doesn't even matter! I used to delude myself with that too but thinking about it, they're two separate people and deserve two separate identities, too bad AA probably convinced herself that she WAS Anastasia somewhere along the way. You can throw all this "evidence" saying what different people said about AA and AN but the evidence is blurred by history, different motivations and many can't be substantiated. It's time for this debate to end because no matter what you try to say to the people who don't believe AA is AN, they won't change and neither will you. So why try? DNA is conclusive and whether you believe it was tampered with, it won't change who AA is in the minds of other people and who she is officially.

 

[ChatNoir]

This topic will never die because of all the people, including yourself, who take a great interest in it.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If you have read Kurth, maybe you remember Faith Lavington who was asked by AA to study English with her.

You have to read more than Kurth, because he didn't add the things that made AA look bad, such as the stuff from La Fausse Anastasie, or the stuff Welch had in her book about how Lavington said in her diary she thought AA was fake, and how the picture of FS looked just like her.

But we already know that AA spoke English long before Seeon.

Nope, we don't. Several others including Olga A. and Bux said she didn't understand a word. Obviously, they were right.

but some people seem to get very upset at those whose opinion differs from their own.

Sigh, Chat, when can I get it through to you that once something is proven wrong it's no longer an opinion? There is a right and wrong answer thanks to the DNA, and if you can't prove all those tests wrong, you're really out of luck. No comment by anyone decades ago will make any difference, they were either lying or wrong, she was not AN! You are actually spreading incorrect misleading information. AA is FS get over it and get a life.

 

[Russophile]

You have to read more than Kurth, because he didn't add the things that made AA look bad, such as the stuff from La Fausse Anastasie, or the stuff Welch had in her book about how Lavington said in her diary she thought AA was fake, and how the picture of FS looked just like her.

No, that's not the reason why, Peter told me there was so much material that his editor axed a lot of it, which is normal in that sort of business.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Victimised????

< ed: Warren >

Yes, victimized! Menarue is right. This is a big reason why I fight so hard to separate the truth from the worn out myth. Poor Anastasia was brutally murdered at 17 and is more remembered for the odd creature who was AA instead of herself.Please, just admit the family died and let them have an honorable and truthful memory. And while you're at it stop defaming the names of Olga A., Ernie, Gilliard and Bux, they were right!

 

[Penny Royalty]

Sometimes I wonder about history. I wonder that in the hypothetical development of a sophisticated society there may come a time when our technology (as in depictions through science fiction) can theoretically enable a person to travel time, to travel the vasts spectrums of our galaxy and thus the universe in entirety. There are speculations that extra-terrestrial life far more intelligent than that known by us humans, can exist. And to sum up my small point is that more in our existing historical development can be acknowledged and understood by beings capable of recording life in our planet as we know it, through their means. Of course my theory is rather speculative and hearsay for there still lies no tangible or apparent evidence, like UFO's or aliens known commonly to mankind as we know it. So I wonder sometimes when there are instances of dire importance taking hand, I wonder if higher intelligent beings (if existing at all) take concern and acquire information that bestows the truth upon an interested and discerning mind like fellow higher intelligent beings or even the government if it is in any way communicating with those said sources. Mind you I'm being open minded and creatively imaginative but sometimes I look at our technology and I have to wonder. If for any reason this may seem unintelligent or frugal or seemingly fictional, by all means disregard my post or critique it as you may. I do wonder about the truth and about the history of man and it's actual development. So call me a dreamer and truth enthusiast. With all due respect I wish you ado.

 

[Shaiya]

This topic will never die because of all the people, including yourself, who take a great interest in it.

Makes sense, except I don't take a great interest in it. I mean I was super interested in it when I was 11 years old(seriously), and that was only for 2 months. The endless bickering back and forth just irks me and I'm confused to how and why people would continue to debate this when there is absolutely NO way to change the facts or convince anyone here to change their opinion on this matter. Don't you just get tired of it? I mean, aren't there like 290123819023 better things to do in life?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

This seems to me to be an argument between two yanks.

Not really, I am from Virginia, I not a "yank." People in other countries need to learn that 'yank' 'yankee' is a term which only refers to people from New England, and probably New York, PA and NJ. It originated from the Indians (Native Americans) calling the Mass. settlers "yangees" was their term for "English". It gained its popularity during the Revolutionary War with the song "Yankee Doodle." But people from states in most of the country are not 'yanks.' During the US Civil War, "Yankee" was a term the southerners to describe the invading nothern Army, and for decades it was an insult in my part of the country. It always annoyed me to see Brits and others label all Americans "yank." Grrrr..

 

[Anna was Franziska]

< ed Warren: reply to deleted post >

Russo, there really isn't anything left to answer that the DNA didn't tell us, whether or not we like the answer. Anything else can be logically written off as, oh well, this person was wrong, or perhaps they lied. AA wasn't AN and there's no question about that. Even if there are questions about the bones found last year, it doesn't change the outcome of the results. It all just looks like some people who like the AA and/or Tammet stories don't want to give them up or believe they were wrong, but history has to record the right answer.

 

[Russophile]

AWF, there's all sorts of questions to answer: the policeman, what about the child? Where are all the jewels? Did Sophie really betray them about the jewels? Weren't there 3 dogs? Uncle Ernie, there's speculation about him, well. . .I could go on and on, but the Rum's calling. . . .

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Where are all the jewels? Did Sophie really betray them about the jewels?

No she did not betray the family, as I have said many times, she got no favors and ran for her life for over a year and had to escape Russia with the help of the Brits. Also consider this, they didn't know anyone was going to die, so trying to 'save yourself' was not even thought of! She wanted to be with them! She and the tutors risked their lives hanging around Ekaterinburg after being given orders to leave, then spent months running in fear. You should really read her books for more on the true story.

About the jewels, they did not know about the ones in the clothes until after the execution, this is why they were surprised the bullets bounced. They found them taking off the clothes from the corpses. Also in Sophie's books, it's described how the family's stuff was looted when they got to Ekaterinburg and most of it never seen again. The Bolsheviks dug through everything and took what they wanted, saying things like the Tsar has six pair of boots to their none. Any valuables were taken right then and there, nobody had to rat anything out, they were looking for goodies, they found them and took them. Give the Reds enough credit for thinking of it on their own. People are greedy. So imagine, they know the family is rich and that they must have nice stuff, so they loot and confiscate it. Nobody has to tell them rich people have rich stuff,they were looking for it and found it! If they had known about the ones in the bodices, they'd have taken those too.

what about the child?

Most likely, it never existed, at least not in the context of the very ficticious Romania story, orphanage or not, it didn't happen, she was never there. AA had to add a baby into her story after doctors discovered she'd been preggers. As with other aspects of her 'escape' story, the details changed several times as she concocted with Peuthart, then Von Kliest, until Rathlef the writer finally perfected the final version which would be sold to the public as most believeable. I still believe FS's baby died, was possibly thrown in the trash, or even miscarried or aborted. I feel that whatever happened to FS's child had a part in the depression that led to her suicide attempt.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

non-English speakers are able to use the English language better than the natives

Some can, but in your case, I have talked to you extensively in public and private to be certain enough you are an American, not even a Brit, raised on the east coast in a family with home grown euphanisms and using certain phrases never learned in language classes. You are an American and you will never convince me otherwise. But anyway, this is off topic. This is an AA thread, it's not about your identity.

Were you aware of what I posted above, that the family's stuff was confiscated as soon as they arrived in Ekaterinburg?

 

[ChatNoir]

Again:
Perhaps in an effort to spare herself from the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she (Buxhoeveden) found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of the three youg women, but also where the items could be found: "The buttons on her coat aren't buttons," she revealed, "they're diamonds"; "the aigrette of that hat conceals a diamond form the Shah of Persia"; and "that belt there - underneath it are ropes of pearls."
(Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f. 41, op. 1, d. 149)

And in his 1922 memoirs, Yurovsky wrote of "the damn valuables and jewels we knew they had concealed in their clothes when they arrived, which caused troubles to no end."
(Yakov Yurovsky, unpublished memoirs, 1922, in Archives of the President of the Russian Federation, f.3, op.58, d.280)

Unknown to both of these men (Gilliard and Gibbes), and ignored by Buxhoeveden in her memoirs, was her interrogation that afternoon. A few members of the Ural Regional Soviet and Ekaterinburg Cheka entered the railroad coach where she waited alone, questioning her at length about her revelations to Rodionov aboard Rus. During the session, Buxhoeveden repeated her knowledge of the imperial family's hidden jewelry, a final betrayal that guaranteed her freeedom and helped seal the fate of the prisoners.
(Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f. 41, op. 1, d. 149)

 

[ChatNoir]

Were you aware of what I posted above, that the family's stuff was confiscated as soon as they arrived in Ekaterinburg?

No, it was NOT! Your remark about the tsar's boots stems from the crowd that assembled at the pier where the Rus docked. < ed : Warren - personal remark >

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat as I have already explained, your 'source' is inaccurate, and Bux's name was never mentioned. See thread on AP for more.

Here's the story of the looting of their stuff, Left Behind, chapter VII

A box was opened for some reason or other, and some pairs of old boots belonging to the Emperor came to view. "He has six pairs, and I have none!" shouted a man, pointing to his bare feet. At this one of the crowd cried "Death to the tyrant! Death to the bourgoui!" "All these boxes contain the gold dresses of these wanton women!" another cried, pointing to us. "Off with their heads!" A huge man with a red face, wild hair and beard, and dressed only in a torn shirt and trousers, got on a box and began a speech: "Tovaristchy!" (Comrades). "While these blood-suckers were gloating over their ill-gotten gains, we were sweating the sap of our lives in working for them. Now it is their turn; down with them; hang them; drown them in the lake," etc., etc. The soldiers who were looking on laughed; some applauded.
Rodionoff and Khokhriakoff came at this juncture, and, seeing that the crowd) was likely to prevent the unloading of the vans, had the platform cleared by the soldiers. The Kommissars began sorting the luggage, giving their orders: "This and that goes to the Ipatieff house,these other things to the Soviet." Most of Their Majesties' belongings went to the Soviet or to the lodgings of the Kommissars themselves, and were never seen again by their lawful owners!

From "Life and Tragedy" chapter XXXI

upon leaving Tobolsk

The Governor's and Kornilov's houses were looted by them on their departure. Everything, whether belonging to the Imperial Family or not, was taken away, even to the horse and carriage that the Archbishop lent to take the children to the landing-stage. All these things, as well as most of the Imperial Family's own belongings, were divided by the men at Ekaterinburg as "spoil," some of it, as I saw myself, being taken to the Soviet.

on arriving in Ekaterinburg:

The camp-beds were eventually brought from the train. Their other luggage was, however, taken to the Soviet and most of it never reappeared. Some things were taken to the Ipatiev house, but were put in the loft, where the prisoners could not get them, and were eventually looted by the soldiers.


So! The Bolsheviks, without anyone giving them the idea, looted the family's stuff. It's actually insulting to them to think they wouldn't have thought to do so on their own!Anything worth anything was taken, and since the bodices weren't, it is obvious they did not know about them.So much for the 'ratting out' story!

 

[ChatNoir]

Most likely, it never existed, at least not in the context of the very ficticious Romania story, orphanage or not, it didn't happen, she was never there. AA had to add a baby into her story after doctors discovered she'd been preggers.

The detail about the orphanage did not come from AA. It originated from the man who visited Clara Marie Peuthert while AA was at Funkenmühle with Inspector Grünberg. He was the one who said that the child was sent to an orphanage in Galati.

 

[Menarue]

As far as I remember, her cousin Xenia acknowledged AA as Grand Duchess Anastasia. And her "uncle" Andrew did the same thing.

My suggestion was Prince Philip, he would not try to hurt your feelings.

 

[Penny Royalty]

Sometimes I read what is posted in reference to the Grand Duchess and I think both parties have a say and the truth is the plain facts are more true to one side. The garnered plaintiffs and defendants rely now solely on testimonial that cannot be corroborated through first hand investigation. All that remains is a pathology of evidence that is either false or true but distinctly having an error of margin one way or the other. Sadly or fortunately I find reading here that a spectacle for realization of truth as an outcome is taking place. Someone I dare say is mistaken though. Forgive me for not being learned on the matter at hand but I like to believe in conspiracy theories because they may above all hold some strength and so my curious eye has been enamored by the display of sincerity on the part of the parties involved. I cannot say that in all I want to side with Anna was Franziska or with Chat Noir but whomever ultimately is torching the light of fire. That is to say whomever shines on what is right. And this is of the utmost importance to the Royals.
The lack of first hand say, the lack of actual memory testimonial, the mental dementia that questions the persons sanity, the available photography, and all the love I see depicted and imparted on the person we speak of by the many stated fellow country men of that time, leave one baffled if that person is to be believed in and followed as such.
I think the posters here both believe their side of what is there and their earnestness catches my attention to be impressive and somehow being mistaken. We the audience do keep returning, but particularly for me it is to wonder if just maybe the conspiracy has relevance. Thus I imagine along between your markings.
My eye is naked to tales from the two sides and yet I find interest to believe that the person we speak of is not an impostor. Throw me amongst the believers for I've loved to gather a passion throughout this plight. Apparently the two of you are patient but maybe the truth is already known by the family of the Grand Duchess. And that is what counts; the empathy and feelings of the Russian Royals still living. May they be nurtured to complete absolving of the truth. I hope in time their will be no idea to the other.

 

[Warren]

I've taken out quite a few posts and edited others.
Posts speculating about the identities and nationaliities of other members have been removed.
Sarcastic comments and pointed personal remarks have also been removed.
A reminder that no member, including those who have taken up residence, has a proprietorial right to this thread. This means that new or other members who post their opinions are not to be patronised, bullied or insulted.

There are repercussions for this type of behaviour and the Administrators will not allow it to continue.

Warren
TRF Administrator

 

[tsarskoe]

Hello everyone,

With regards to the claim by Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann that Pierre Gilliard had substituted a photograph of the Grand Duchess Olga in place of Anastasia when Prof. Bischoff made his study of AA's face to AN's face.

Here is the original photograph(s) of the Imperial children taken after their heads were shaved while suffering from measles.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/childrenbald.jpg
Pierre Gilliard indicated that Anastasia is on the far left followed by Olga, Alexei, Marie, Tatiana. Harriet insisted that Olga was the one of the farthest left followed by Anastasia etc. She showed a photograph (it is uncertain if they were shown the entire photograph of simply the cut out of the girl on the left as was published in Harriet's book) to Felix Yussuppov and to Alexei Volkov and they too thought it was Olga. If one were to look at the girl on the far left without seeing any of the other children I can see how one might conclude it was Olga, but when one looks at the girl on her right it is obvious that the girl second from the left is olga. Note the width of the forehead, the eyes and the nose.
See the collage below. On the left half of the picture are photos of Anastasia on the right half Olga. It seems apparent to me that Anastasia is the girl on the far left followed by Olga.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/olgabald.jpg

With regards to the swastika on the Tsar's car. It is my understanding that only one of the care had the emblem on it. I will be happy to scan the photo of the car from Gilliard's book and post it as soon as I get the chance.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I just want to make it clear, I hope no one thought I was attacking any new members because I certainly was not. I only used their posts as an example of how most people and innocent bystanders are fed up with our arguing here. I welcome new posters and it's always good to see different people- whether they're new or just new to the thread- since these threads usually end up as just us usual suspects.

 

[AGRBear]

... [ in part]...Rodionoff and Khokhriakoff came at this juncture, and, seeing that the crowd) was likely to prevent the unloading of the vans, had the platform cleared by the soldiers. The Kommissars began sorting the luggage, giving their orders: "This and that goes to the Ipatieff house,these other things to the Soviet." Most of Their Majesties' belongings went to the Soviet or to the lodgings of the Kommissars themselves, and were never seen again by their lawful owners!

From "Life and Tragedy" chapter XXXI
....

I read this to mean that these two men "cleared" the platform and sent the luggage to the Ipatiev House or the Soviet "lodgings" of the Soviet and the "Kommisars". We cannot possibly know if any or none of these items were every seen again by the Royal Family.

V.V. Alekseyev's THE LAST ACT OF A TRAGEDY goes into great detail with the recovery of stolen items which belonged to Nicholas II and the others in Toblosk and Ekaterinburg. Example page 209:

>>No. 76
Continuation of Klavdiya Mikhailovna Kubylinskay's testimony
April 2, 1934

Question: Tell us, were the valuables kept by your husband given to the nunnery?
Anwser: The valuables that were kept by my husaband were given to Pechekos but not to the nunnery."

Page after page is given as the Bolshevik/communists continue to search for missing jewels to monogram underwear.

I believe the Bolshevik/communists were using lists which recorded the Royal belongings collected by both Yurovsky, Avdeev and the commisar who came before them.

There is a list of valuables recorded 11 November 1933 by the Ural OGPU which starts on p. 185 under No. 58.

Starting on page 165 under No. 45 are:

>>List of gold articles handed over by Y. Yurovsky, commandant of the House of Special Purpose to Kremlin Commandant p. Malkov<<

No dates listed.

V.V. Alekseyev gives us more than lists, he has copied what people testified without the interference of his opinions.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Again:
Perhaps in an effort to spare herself from the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she (Buxhoeveden) found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of the three youg women, but also where the items could be found: "The buttons on her coat aren't buttons," she revealed, "they're diamonds"; "the aigrette of that hat conceals a diamond form the Shah of Persia"; and "that belt there - underneath it are ropes of pearls."
(Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f. 41, op. 1, d. 149)

And in his 1922 memoirs, Yurovsky wrote of "the damn valuables and jewels we knew they had concealed in their clothes when they arrived, which caused troubles to no end."
(Yakov Yurovsky, unpublished memoirs, 1922, in Archives of the President of the Russian Federation, f.3, op.58, d.280)

Unknown to both of these men (Gilliard and Gibbes), and ignored by Buxhoeveden in her memoirs, was her interrogation that afternoon. A few members of the Ural Regional Soviet and Ekaterinburg Cheka entered the railroad coach where she waited alone, questioning her at length about her revelations to Rodionov aboard Rus. During the session, Buxhoeveden repeated her knowledge of the imperial family's hidden jewelry, a final betrayal that guaranteed her freeedom and helped seal the fate of the prisoners.
(Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f. 41, op. 1, d. 149)

Rodionov was a Bolshevik and he'd have no qualms in discrediting Buxhoeveden who survived.

I believe there were others, a maid, if I remember, who might have been the one who told the Bolshviks about the jewels sewn into the clothing. And, I believe that same maid survived, also, and married a Bolshevik.

I am not convinced that Buxhoeveden was a traitor. Even if she was and she did tell Rodionov what he wanted to know, since I'm allergic to pain, I'd understand if she told EVERYTHING to the Bolsheviks who would have or did no terrible things to people in order to gain information they so wanted. And, as far as I'm concern, Buxhoeveden's loyality was stronger than most, certainly more than any Romanov cousins, since she willingly was with the Royal family as they were sent to Siberia.

AGRBear