Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

Hello everyone,

With regards to the claim by Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann that Pierre Gilliard had substituted a photograph of the Grand Duchess Olga in place of Anastasia when Prof. Bischoff made his study of AA's face to AN's face.

Here is the original photograph(s) of the Imperial children taken after their heads were shaved while suffering from measles.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/childrenbald.jpg
Pierre Gilliard indicated that Anastasia is on the far left followed by Olga, Alexei, Marie, Tatiana. Harriet insisted that Olga was the one of the farthest left followed by Anastasia etc. She showed a photograph (it is uncertain if they were shown the entire photograph of simply the cut out of the girl on the left as was published in Harriet's book) to Felix Yussuppov and to Alexei Volkov and they too thought it was Olga. If one were to look at the girl on the far left without seeing any of the other children I can see how one might conclude it was Olga, but when one looks at the girl on her right it is obvious that the girl second from the left is olga. Note the width of the forehead, the eyes and the nose.
See the collage below. On the left half of the picture are photos of Anastasia on the right half Olga. It seems apparent to me that Anastasia is the girl on the far left followed by Olga.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/olgabald.jpg

With regards to the swastika on the Tsar's car. It is my understanding that only one of the care had the emblem on it. I will be happy to scan the photo of the car from Gilliard's book and post it as soon as I get the chance.

All of this can get confusing, can't it?

Thanks for this information. Seeing the photos used gives me a different perspective.

Thanks Tsarskoe.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

The detail about the orphanage did not come from AA. It originated from the man who visited Clara Marie Peuthert while AA was at Funkenmühle with Inspector Grünberg. He was the one who said that the child was sent to an orphanage in Galati.

Was this the man whom some believe was the brother of the father of AA's child?

I'd like to read about him and his visit, again, so, could you give me a source from another book?

Thanks Chat.

AGRBear

 

[tsarskoe]

You are quite welcome AGRBear.

I would like to make it clear that I do not find Prof. Bischoff's work as worthy of much merit. It is true that the photographs he used of AA and Anastasia were not from the same angle/lighting. (Personally, I find facial comparisons far too subjective for my taste anyway). It is simply that I think Pierre Gilliard has been called a "liar" for many things which I believe he was correct on. I believe his knowledge about the Imperial family, his time spent with them (up until being separated from them in Ekarterinburg) should make him a very credible witness in determining some of the specifics of this case.

 

[AGRBear]

You are quite welcome AGRBear.

I would like to make it clear that I do not find Prof. Bischoff's work as worthy of much merit. It is true that the photographs he used of AA and Anastasia were not from the same angle/lighting. (Personally, I find facial comparisons far too subjective for my taste anyway). It is simply that I think Pierre Gilliard has been called a "liar" for many things which I believe he was correct on. I believe his knowledge about the Imperial family, his time spent with them (up until being separated from them in Ekarterinburg) should make him a very credible witness in determining some of the specifics of this case.

My doubts about Gilliard's intentions started when I read that he could not produce evidence that had been in his care was destroyed by him before he testified in AA's trial.

p. 299 , Kurth's ANASTASIA:

>>Judge Werkmeister refused to be sidetracked: "A book is not evidence, M. Gilliard," But now the judges did turn their attention to the contents of The False Anastasia. They wanted to examine some of the contents of original documentation-- above all, the excited letter Shura Gilliard had received in 1925 from Grand Duchess Olga, the letter that had first moved the Gilliards to meet Anastasia in Berlin.

"I don't have it anymore."

THen what about Gilliard's correspondence with the Duke of Leuchtenberg: "Is it true that you failed to reply to three of his letters?"

"Yes.... no...I don't know anymore."

The correspondence with Harriet von Rathlef?<<

The questions continued. Gilliard on the second day admitted:

p. 300
>> I don't have them anymore! They're burned! I destroyed them. I have nothing anymore. <<

We're told that Gilliard had an automobile accident on the way home, suffered from the accident and died four years later in 1962. He did not return in front of the judges of AA's trial.

Another example which caused doubt in my mind as to Gilliard's motives occured when I read Summers and Mangold's book FILE ON THE TSAR. How many of you know that after Gilliard first arrived at Ekaterinburg his impression of the murder scene in the basement room of the Ipatiev House was:

p. 149:

>>At the time I left the house I could not believe that the imperial family had really perished. There were such small number of bullet holes<< in the room which I had inspected, that I thought it impossible for everybody to have been executed.<<

Summers and Mangold wrote: >>In a book two years later, the same Gilliard was to describe the same scene again, but quite differently:<<

>>I went down to the ground floor.... The walls and floors showed numerous traces of bullets and blows with bayonets.<< AS first glance showed that an odious crime had been perpretrated there, and that several people had been killed...<<

Of course, Gilliard had every right to change his opinion. He should have just said he had changed his mind due to the collection of more evidence. Why didn't he just say with the truth? I believe there was certain demands by Diterikhs, the Gen. of the Whites who came to Ekaterinburg and took charge. It is my belief that he wanted the world to believe Nicholas II, his heir and all the family was dead. Why? He and other White leaders wanted to lead the Whites and their chosen leaders into power. It was at this same time that terrible rumors were spread that the Bolsheviks and done terrible things to the eleven.... Diterikhs brought in Sokolov to take over the investigation. All investigations of survivors ceased and Sokolov was told to collect evidence to prove All eleven had been murdered.

In July 1919 just before the Whites pulled out of Ekaterinburg, a dog's corpse was said to have been found in the mine shaft known as the Four Brother's Mine. A place that had been searched for a year. No one believed there was anything else to find in this shaft. The dog's corpse was shown to Gilliard who stated that it was Jemmy, Anastasia's dog. It has been proven by scientists that the dog could not have been at the bottom of this shaft for nearly a year. No longer than several weeks. Forensic science is a modern wonder. Someone had planted the dog's body. Probably the Whites. The first time I saw the photo of the dog's corpse I wondered if it really was Jemmy, since the legs are too long for his breed.

Was Gilliard capable of falsifying evidence? Or was he just caught up in the events?

I am not sure, but I don't think he ever stated that he believed ALL eleven died in the early morning hours of the 17th of July in the Ipatiev House. If he did, was it after the appearance of AA? Does anyone know the answer to this?

I do know that Gilliard stayed in contact with Sokolov, who continued to add testimony to his investigation by interviewing others who were in exile. I believed they lived in the same apartment building in Paris where Sokolov became ill and died.

Now, about those bullets. Here is addition information so you can gain your own opinion on this particular subject.

p. 150
>>Letermin, the 36-year-old guard caught and interrogated aft the fall of Ekaterinburg gave Sergeyev this account of the way the downstairs room looked less than two days after the Romanovs vanished:

"All that I heard about the murder of the tsar and his family intersted me very much, and I decided, as far as I could, to check myself the information I had received. On 18 July, with this aim in mind, I went into the room where the shooting had taken place, and noticed that the floor was clean; on the walls also I found there were not stains. On the far wall, on the left hand side of the doorway, I noticed three holes, each about a centimetre deep; I saw no other traces of shooting..

Letermin added:
>>It was evening when I made the examination, and I was in a hurry, afraid lest one of the authorities should see I was interested in the addair. I noticed no bullet traces or bayonet holes on the floor which I examined, although I repeat, I was in a hurry. I did not see any traces of blood anywhere.<<

It is true that in the first hours and days the Bolshevik officials were telling the world that they had executed Nicholas II and not his family whom they had taken to a "safe place".

Was Letemin part of this cover-up?

He was not the only one who talked about the number of bullet holes. Gilliard had in his first statement.

p. 140

>>Sir Charles Eliot recorded that when he visited the Ipatiev House in October 1918, Sergeyev told him there had been seventeen bullet holes.<<

>>Captain McCullagh, a British intelligence officer, wrote of his visit... in later summmer 1918: "there were sixteen bullet holes in the wall, and sixteen bullets were extracted from them by the Whites after they arrived.<<

p. 150
>>But come Sokolov's account, the number of bullets holes leaps to 30...<<

Like Penny Royalty voices: >> The garnered plaintiffs and defendants rely now solely on testimonial that cannot be corroborated through first hand investigation. All that remains is a pathology of evidence that is either false or true but distinctly having an error of margin one way or the other. Sadly or fortunately I find reading here that a spectacle for realization of truth as an outcome is taking place. Someone I dare say is mistaken though.<<

Somewhere within the letters, documents and testimonies lies the truth.

Is there any evidence or hint of evidence that the Bolsheviks have not told us the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

And what about the Whites? Have they been truthful?

From one testimony which tells us 3 bullet holes were found to the last investigator's notes we're told 27 more bullet holes found, some of us in the year 2008 are to try and figure out where the truth is. This is just one of the discrepancies.

Gilliard added to these discrepancies. He had his reasons. He probably believed there was no need to provide even the smallest hint that anyone of the eleven might have survived. But, for a few moments, his heart pounded as he traveled to meet AA. Was it possible that one of Nicholas II's daughters survived?

Gilliard became AA's enemy. He tells us that he didn't believe AA was GD Anastasia.

In his mind, perhaps he thought it was best for everyone that he destroyed any evidence that remotely suggested anyone survived the court wanted in AA's case. Or, one day, even before AA's case was started, he just might have wanted to rid himself of everything and just destroyed it all and once it was done he couldn't undo.

AGRBear

 

[Menarue]

Poor Gilliard had never heard of DNA or he would not have worried so much .
So he forgot a lot, I have found in the impossible story of AA that she seemed to remember rather a lot.
One who no one can deny was close to the IRF -forgot, and another who wasn´t -remembered.

 

[AGRBear]

Information in the mysterious visitor who left a photo and information that AA's child was in an orphanage in Galati.

I first turn to Kurth's book ANASTASIA where I recall reading the information for the first time.

p. 62
>>A young man had turned up at Clara Peuthert's apartment one morning, apparently having been sent there by the staff at the Dalldorf Asylum. At Clara's the stranger saw a photograph of Anastasia and said, "I know that lady." Then he broke into tears. On the back of the picture he scribbled the words, in pencil:

"Anastasia Nicolaieva...Alexanderva...Ivan...Alexev...Shorov... geb [born] Pittersburg."<<

>>Clara ...took the stranger to see Captain von Schwabe, her personal favorite among the emigres. there the man informed Schwabe that he had brought Anastasia from Rumania to Berlin, that he had known Anastasia and her 'so-called husband" in Bucharest, that the two had never been legally married, that Anastasia had indeed had a child, and that the boy could now be found in Galatz (now Galati). This information was given reluctantly, in a weird mixture of German, French and "peasant Russian." << No names were named. Clara's caller explained that he had already spent "six months in jail on account of this business in Russia." Finally, however, when he learned that Anastasia was staying with Gruenberg family in the country, the young man produced a photograph of himself and a letter, which he instructed Captain von Schwabe to give Anastasia when she returned to town.<<

After AA returned to Berlin, she was told about the man, whom Clara believed was the brother-in-law of Alexander, the so-called husband of AA's, and when asked about the letter was told that Schwabe had "mislaid" the letter and the photograph.

For me all kinds of question leap out at me.

1) The stranger wrote on the back of the photo. Has anyone seen the inscription on this photo
2) The stranger talked about Glatz and an orphange
3) The stranger left a photograph and a letter which vanished. Why did it vanish?
4) The stranger said he had already served six months in jail IN RUSSIA because of "this business"
5) Why did the stranger speak in three languages? And, the use of common Russian indicates he was not from the upper part of the social ladder
6) Since the stranger was seen by both Clara and Schwabe then Clara didn't just make him up for her story about AA
7) Child of AA's was a boy and a bastard since he claimed there had been no legal marriage....

Did AA talked about Serge before the stranger appeared at Clara's?

If AA was FS, had she had an affair with the stranger or his brother or friend? If so, when?

The stranger, Serge and Alexander have never surfaced.

We know of no child having been found at the orphanage in Bucharest or Galatz.

All we know is: the doctors at Dalldorf after examining AA recorded that she had given birth to a child and changed her status from "Miss" to "Mrs" Unknown.

Captain Nicholas von Schwabe was a young Russian exile. He had been a staff captain of the personal guard detachment of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna. In exile, he was living in Berlin and was the >>"manager of Dvouglavly Orel (The Double Eagle), the proto-fascist, rabidly anti-Semitric, right-wing organ of the Supreme Monarchist Council<< p. 16

It was Schwabe whom was lead to believe that AA was Tatiana, not Anastasia, at the time he first entered this story back in March of 1922.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Poor Gilliard had never heard of DNA or he would not have worried so much .
So he forgot a lot, I have found in the impossible story of AA that she seemed to remember rather a lot.
One who no one can deny was close to the IRF -forgot, and another who wasn´t -remembered.

If the DNA had proven AA was GD Anastasia, perhaps, just perhaps, you would have gone back and reread my posts explaining how a trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest was possible for a wounded grand duchess.

The human memory varies from person to person. My one son can remember back to the age of 6 months. My mother never forgets people she has known or even met briefly. Me, lately, I forget what movie I saw last night. But if you ask me about certain events, I'm still very clear. However, I may remember it differently than others do. I believe it's true, our memory is very selective and deals with all the information it's taken into our brain through the years, and, then spits it out as much as it feels like at the time it feels like doing so, which may be little or more than we want despite our demands we make at that moment. [If you don't understand, read this again when you reach my age ]

 

[Menarue]

Ha ha, when I reach your age! We had better not start playing "Truth" then, one of us might get a big surprise.
Memory? An acquaintance invited me and my husband for coffee to tell us some sad news -what was the news? He was at the beginning of Alzheimer`s, I believed him as he forgot to give us coffee.....
No laughing matter, and I am not laughing, I just get very suspicious when people as time goes on keep remembering more and in greater detail.

 

[Russophile]

Bear, what happened to Captain N. von Schwabe?

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

AGRBear do not waste your time on the details of the 'stranger.' The story is only false made up by crazy Clara like the story of the trip through Paris being chased by killers. It was made up and this casts serious doubt on Schwabe's credibility if he claimed to have talked to him. The only other explaination is that he was acting playing a part to fill in the role of the fake rescuer. How convenient he disappeared! It never happened and the people in the Romania storyline never existed.

 

[tsarskoe]

Actually, yes there was a man who first who showed up who was later identified as Serge. Bear, (If my memory serves) I think that in one of my books there is a photocopy of this paper where he wrote the aforementioned words. Ill have to track it down.

There is also another man. One who visited Anna once in the early 1920's while AA was (I believe) Dalldorf). He was plainly clothed and spoke to AA in a language that the nurses did not know. I do not know which nurses were present since some of the nurses spoke Russian, Polish and of course all of them spoke German. I have often wondered if AA was in fact Franziska if she had not contacted her brother Felix and he had come to see her. Thus when he was summoned in the mid twenties to see her he would have been already aware of the situation. Pure speculation on my part.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Actually, yes there was a man who first who showed up who was later identified as Serge. Bear, (If my memory serves) I think that in one of my books there is a photocopy of this paper where he wrote the aforementioned words. Ill have to track it down.

Identified as Serge Tchiakovsky of the Bolsheviks? Officially? Or just somebody claiming to be him? Whoever the person was, he was plainly pretending since the escaping story never occured. Most likely he was in on it with Clara.

There is also another man. One who visited Anna once in the early 1920's while AA was (I believe) Dalldorf). He was plainly clothed and spoke to AA in a language that the nurses did not know. I do not know which nurses were present since some of the nurses spoke Russian, Polish and of course all of them spoke German. I have often wondered if AA was in fact Franziska if she had not contacted her brother Felix and he had come to see her. Thus when he was summoned in the mid twenties to see her he would have been already aware of the situation. Pure speculation on my part.

I never heard that story before, thank you. Your theory is a good one. I also believe the nurses probably mistook Polish for Russian.

 

[tsarskoe]

OlgaNikolaivena please see Bear's earlier post for more details about the man who mysteriously showed up and then disappeared again never to be heard from again. He did exist (his true identity has never been established) and arrived at the Schwabes and Clara's. He did not identify himself as "Serge" but from what he said it was assumed by her supporters that it could only be "Serge".

Bear, fortunately my memory did serve me well--as I found the photo of the note "Serge" wrote on the back of Anna's photograph which he found in either Clara's flat or the Schwabe's home. It is in ANASTASIA SURVIVOR OF EKATERINBURG by Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/note.jpg

I too wonder who this man was who wrote this inscription. It could have been a hoax; someone who read about the case in the papers and wrote these jumbled words on the photo. Perhaps it was Felix Schanzkowska under AA's direction. Or perhaps...?

Here is the photograph from La Fausse Anastasie showing the Empress in the car with the Swastika on the hood.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/swaz.jpg

 

[AGRBear]

Evidently, I haven't been paying very much attention to the symbol on Alexandra's car.

Thankyou tsarskoe for the photo.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/swaz.jpg


The hood ornament, which I assume is the swaztika, doesn't look quite right to me. It kind looks like it doesn't belong because the radiator cap is in the way. It also looks like someone has enhanced the swaztika so we can see it better.

Where was this photo found?

Are there other photos of this car showing the swaztika from a different angle?

AGRBear

 

[tsarskoe]

Yes, I definitely agree that the swaztika has been enhanced-as all of the photographs in Pierre Gilliard's book. I should point out the same is true for Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann's book and for that matter most of the books with photographs during the early 1900's. The photo originally appeared in a collection of photographs published by "The Standard" by the Supreme Monarchist Council apparently printed in 1923. Which AA had seen according to Mr. Schwabe. Interesting to note, AA also had access to the Russian version of Pierre Gilliard's first book about his time with the Imperial family. In this book is a reproduction of the swaztika the Empress drew one on the wall of her bedroom in Ekaterinburg. Recall the similar story AA told (about the Empress carving the swaztika) to Alexei Volkov when he visited her while she was under Harriet von Rathlef's care-after her time spend with the Schwabes.

The car in question is a Dolaunay-Belleville and according to the account quoted in Pierre Gilliard's La Fausse Anastasie it was the only car befixed with a swaztika. The symbol had been given to the Empress by her brother GD Ernst and she instructed it to be placed on the Tsar's car.

 

[AGRBear]

Because the swaztika image bothered me yesterday, I enlarged the area.

To me it looks like a bad drawing. Why? It's not in perspective.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Information in the mysterious visitor who left a photo and information that AA's child was in an orphanage in Galati.

I first turn to Kurth's book ANASTASIA where I recall reading the information for the first time.

p. 62
>>A young man had turned up at Clara Peuthert's apartment one morning, apparently having been sent there by the staff at the Dalldorf Asylum. At Clara's the stranger saw a photograph of Anastasia and said, "I know that lady." Then he broke into tears. On the back of the picture he scribbled the words, in pencil:

"Anastasia Nicolaieva...Alexanderva...Ivan...Alexev...Shorov... geb [born] Pittersburg."<<

>>Clara ...took the stranger to see Captain von Schwabe.... [ in part]...

AGRBear

From tsarskoe:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/note.jpg

So, is this written in Russian or Polish?

Bear, what happened to Captain N. von Schwabe?

I don't recall. I'll have to check my notes.


AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Actually, yes there was a man who first who showed up who was later identified as Serge. .....

There is also another man. One who visited Anna once in the early 1920's while AA was (I believe) Dalldorf). He was plainly clothed and spoke to AA in a language that the nurses did not know. I do not know which nurses were present since some of the nurses spoke Russian, Polish and of course all of them spoke German.

....[in part]....

I don't recall reading about an earlier visitor at the hosptial or later at Dalldorf before Clara stirred things up in March. Do you recall where you read about this visitor?

AGRBear

 

[Pixilated]

I remember reading The Riddle of Anna Anderson when I was a teenager (ten years ago) and it just resonated with sadness, disturbance and unhappiness.To think a person could be that far gone to claim those things...really sad in all.

 

[tian]

Evidently, I haven't been paying very much attention to the symbol on Alexandra's car.

Thankyou tsarskoe for the photo.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/swaz.jpg


The hood ornament, which I assume is the swaztika, doesn't look quite right to me. It kind looks like it doesn't belong because the radiator cap is in the way. It also looks like someone has enhanced the swaztika so we can see it better.

Where was this photo found?

Are there other photos of this car showing the swaztika from a different angle?

AGRBear

Here's the picture without the drawing.

 

[tian]

From Harriet Rathlef Keilmann:

"I believe I can clearly recollect that, on the day when I was first given command of my regiment, I myself took charge of the parade on horseback." (In a letter dated 26th January, 1926, Mr. Gilliard conmfirmed to me that what she said was perfectly true.)

In Harriet Rathlef's book AA says that she was about fifteen when she got her regiment and that her sisters were much older when they got theirs. Actually, Anastasia got her regiment on her 14th birthday. Olga and Tatiana were both 13 years old and Maria got hers on her 13th birthday on 1912.
It seems that there was only one parade/review of the troops, on 5 August 1913, and only Olga and Tatiana took part in it.

 

[AGRBear]

Bear, what happened to Captain N. von Schwabe?

I don't have any notes on what happen to Captain Schwabe.

There is an article on his daughter Anastasia:
Information on Anastasia Geng

>>Anastasia's parents were both of Latvian origin but at the outbreak of the 1917 revolution they were living in St Petersburg, where Nicolai von Schwabe, Anastasia's father-to-be, was a young officer at the court of Tsar Nicolai II. They managed to flee from Russia and take refuge in Germany, where they got married in 1920. Anastasia was born on April 15th, 1922 in Berlin. She was named after her godmother, the alleged daughter of the Tsar, who was being cared for by Anastasia's parents. In 1923 Anastasia's brother Alexis was born. Sadly the marriage didn't last and Mrs von Schwabe went back to Riga with her children to live with her parents. There, at their grandparents' home, the children grew up with their Latvian grandparents, their German grandmother and a Russian nurse, thus learning three languages at the same time.<<

Evidently, the Capt. and his wife were divorsed.

I think we talked about the Schwabe family on AP but I don't recall what was posted. I'll see if I can find it.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

In Harriet Rathlef's book AA says that she was about fifteen when she got her regiment and that her sisters were much older when they got theirs. Actually, Anastasia got her regiment on her 14th birthday. Olga and Tatiana were both 13 years old and Maria got hers on her 13th birthday on 1912.
It seems that there was only one parade/review of the troops, on 5 August 1913, and only Olga and Tatiana took part in it.

Olga 1911

From my forum:

Olga was born 1895

1895 to 1911 is 16 years.

Another post of mine on my forum:

>>...July, for example, she became commander-in-chief of the third Elizabetgradsky Hussars Regiment. One of her duties was to concern herself with the decoration of her regiment's uniform. And so in 1911, on the petition of their commander-in-chief, the troops were given short white fur-lined cloaks to be worn with full-dress uniform. The men expressed their gratitude with the following regimental song:

We Hussars are not of foil, We are all of damask steel How we value Olga's name Our white cloak and our flag of fame! <<

Source:
Alexander Palace:
Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna <<

RomanovsRussia :: Login

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Subtract a year:

I'm told I need to make this CORRECTION:
1895 to 1910 made Olga 15.

>>"Tsarskoe Selo.

17/30 Jan. 1910, Monday.

My darling Louise [of Battenburg, aka Mountbatten, our cousin and daughter of Mama's older sister Victoria],

I thank you many times for the letter. I was very pleased to get it. Tell your Mama and Papa that my Papa for my namesday gave me the regiment which before commanded your Grandfather Uncle Alexander, the 8 Lancer Wosnecenski. I do not know how to write the name as it is difficult from the Russian. I am so delighted I have got my own regiment. Olga also got when she was as old as I the hussar regiment, so now we both have one.

How are you, dear? You said that you hoped that none of us would get chicken pox, but of course I got it from Anastasia which is a great bore.

From the 2nd Jan. Alexei and I went to bed and lay till the 12th. I got up just for my namesday. Then in between Anastasia lay and also had influenza but the whole time we were all together. Baby is lying till now. Marie is also in bed, only Olga, Mama and Papa were not lying till now.

On the 6th Jan. just before our lessons began Olga went to Petersburg in the evening to the theatre, and came back very late and had to lie in the stupid bed. Better in any case do not show to anyone this letter, perhaps it is dangerous as I have got still chicken pox. Mama is now a little better but it makes her tired running every day three times a day upstairs to us whilst we were all in bed. How is your Mama, Papa and all?

Tell Nona [Kerr, Aunt Victoria's lady-in-waiting] I am awfully sorry I did not thank her for the letter which she sent me with the socks but each time I began I tore it up as I did not like it. I want to see you awfully, Louise darling.

Now good bye, my dearest Louisechen. Much love and kisses to you all from your ever loving cousin,

Tatiana.

P.S. Love to Clayden [Louise's own maid]."<<

I do not know the book this source was found.

Is there another source as to when they had the chicken pox?


We know Tatiana didn't have her own guard until after Olga. She wrote in her diary on 20 April 1911 p. 342 of A LIFE LONG PASSION, NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA, THEIR OWN STORY by Maylunas and Mironenko:

>>I am also the second daughter and Olga was at the first so now it is my turn.<<

But when did she get her regiment?

And when did Tatiana get hers?

The 8th Cavalry Division/8-ya Kavaleriiskaya Diviziya.
8th Army Corps. Headquarters, Kishinev.
1st Brigade. Headquarters, Tiraspol:
8th HER IMPERIAL HIGHNESS GRAND DUCHESS TATIANA NIKOLAIEVNA'S Voznesensk Lancer Regiment.

 

[tian]

Olga 1911

From my forum:

Olga was born 1895

1895 to 1911 is 16 years.

Another post of mine on my forum:

>>...July, for example, she became commander-in-chief of the third Elizabetgradsky Hussars Regiment. One of her duties was to concern herself with the decoration of her regiment's uniform. And so in 1911, on the petition of their commander-in-chief, the troops were given short white fur-lined cloaks to be worn with full-dress uniform. The men expressed their gratitude with the following regimental song:

We Hussars are not of foil, We are all of damask steel How we value Olga's name Our white cloak and our flag of fame! <<

Source:
Alexander Palace:
Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna <<

RomanovsRussia :: Login

AGRBear

The picture you posted was taken on 5 August 1913. See Olga's diary for more details.

"Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna became commander-in-chief of the 3rd Elizavetgradsky Hussars Regiment on 11 July 1909. One of her activities in this position was to concern herself with the decoration of her regiment's uniform. In 1911, on the petition of their most august commander-in-chief, the Elizavetgradsky troops were given short white fur-lined cloaks to be worn with full-dress uniform." Source Nicholas & Alexandra The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia, page 192.

 

[AGRBear]

Olga was born 3 Nov 1895.

Her names name was the 12th of Jan 1910

Was the photo of 1911 showing Olga with her regiment and their new uniforms?


AGRBear

PS Tian posted while I was posting. She tell us photo was not taken in 1911 but 1913???
Sure a lot of corrections needed in various books!
Where would I find Olga's diary?

 

[tian]

Olga was born 3 Nov 1895.

Her names name was the 12th of Jan 1910

Tatiana's name day was 12 January. Olga's was 11 July.

PS Tian posted while I was posting. She tell us photo was not taken in 1911 but 1913???
Sure a lot of corrections needed in various books!
Where would I find Olga's diary?

You can purchase Olga's diary from Gilbert's Royal Books.
Gilbert's Royal Books - The Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna 1913 - Edited by Raegan Baker

More information about the reviewing of the troops in 1913.

Solodkoff, The Jewel Album of Tsar Nicholas II, page 225.
“Grand duchesses Olga and Tatiana wearing the uniforms of the Elizabethgrad Hussar and the Vosnessensky Lancer Regiments of which they were colonel-in-chief, Peterhof 1913. This being the first time performed their regimental duties, and proud of the beautifully tailored uniforms, their aunt [Irene] also took a photograph of them from the back.”

Marvin Lyons, Nicholas II The Last Tsar, page 103.
“Mounted and in their respective uniforms, they reviewed ‘their’ regiments at a mounted full-dress parade at Peterhof on 5 August 1913. Their grandmother, Marie Feodorovna, noted: ‘How delighted Olga, and Tatiana must have be to be able to review their regiments on horseback.’”

 

[tian]

Subtract a year:

>>"Tsarskoe Selo.

17/30 Jan. 1910, Monday.
I thank you many times for the letter. I was very pleased to get it. Tell your Mama and Papa that my Papa for my namesday gave me the regiment which before commanded your Grandfather Uncle Alexander, the 8 Lancer Wosnecenski. I do not know how to write the name as it is difficult from the Russian. I am so delighted I have got my own regiment. Olga also got when she was as old as I the hussar regiment, so now we both have one.

We know Tatiana didn't have her own guard until after Olga. She wrote in her diary on 20 April 1911 p. 342 of A LIFE LONG PASSION, NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA, THEIR OWN STORY by Maylunas and Mironenko:

>>I am also the second daughter and Olga was at the first so now it is my turn.<<

But when did she get her regiment?

And when did Tatiana get hers?

This is how I thought the girls got their regiments:
Olga, 11 July 1909, her name day
Tatiana, 12 January 1911, her name day
Maria, 14 June 1912, her birthday
Anastasia, 5 June 1915, her birthday

But Tatiana writes to Louise that she got it in 1910.

 

[iakynthi]

I read in Wikipedia that Anastasia was born on the 18th of June.Maybe that's because there's a 13-day difference between the old and the new Gregorian calendar.But this means that nowadays we have to accept the 18th of June as her birthday,right?

 

[AGRBear]

Good grief! Things do get muddled. I was thinking Olga when I read Tatiana's words in the letter. Bear made another error!

Why on earth does Olga have a names day so far from her own birthday 3 Nov [O.S.] on 11 July?

By the way, when using the dates, the best way is to use both dates. This way it prevents confusion. There really is no right way or wrong way. I've forgotten the rule on this. Adding O.S. means old stlyle and N.S. means new style. I think using one or the other would makes things less confusing.

So when was Marie's and Anastasia's name days?

>>17/30 Jan. 1910, Monday.

My darling Louise [of Battenburg, aka Mountbatten, our cousin and daughter of Mama's older sister Victoria],

I thank you many times for the letter. I was very pleased to get it. Tell your Mama and Papa that my Papa for my namesday gave me the regiment which before commanded your Grandfather Uncle Alexander, the 8 Lancer Wosnecenski. I do not know how to write the name as it is difficult from the Russian. I am so delighted I have got my own regiment. Olga also got when she was as old as I the hussar regiment, so now we both have one. <<

That's what Tatiana said. Or that's what the source said and dated.

AGRBear