Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

I do wonder how long AA and Clara were into the royals before the famous claim. Was it a spur of the moment thing or had it been planned? Did they sit around trying to decide which GD she should be, or did it all happen at once? I wonder whatever happened to Clara, and if she ever left any details or memoirs behind. It could be an interesting look into the beginnings of the claim.

 

[AGRBear]

I do wonder how long AA and Clara were into the royals before the famous claim. Was it a spur of the moment thing or had it been planned? Did they sit around trying to decide which GD she should be, or did it all happen at once? I wonder whatever happened to Clara, and if she ever left any details or memoirs behind. It could be an interesting look into the beginnings of the claim.

Remember the TIMELINE. AA told everyone she was GD Anastasia "in the autumn of 1921". Claire entered Dalldorf later than this.

>>>>17 Feb 1920. 9:00 PM ...

>>The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin. She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse<<

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum<<

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...<<

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed. These photographs were sent from Berlin out to Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic). Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly.... Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA... This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes<<

>>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921<<

AWF's theory doesn't ring true since Claire wasn't even around in the autumn of 1921. In fact, Claire took it upon herself to declare AA was Tatiana and ran with it even though this isn't what AA had announced earlier. Why would Claire change AA's story? I'm not aware that Claire ever explained this to anyone, so, who knows why. It certainly made things more difficult for AA later.

What do we know about Claire? pps. 12 and 13 in Kurth's book ANASTSIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:
>>..Clara Peuthert...fifty one years of age, who had lived in Russia before World War I as a dressmaker or a laundress-- there sseem to be some confusion about her profession. Clara herself later claimed that she had been employed in Moscow as a governess, but other report make it plan that she had served the Germans as kind of a penny agent, an intermittently reliable source of high-class gossip. In any case, she darnk too much, talked too much, and had an annoying habbit of slapping people when they said something she didn't like.<<

p. 14

Claire>>....left the Dalldorf Asylum on the twentieth of January 1922, and the "Anastasia" affair began<<



AGRBear

 

[tsarskoe]

As to her testimony during the trial the nurse Chemnitz commented that AA's "Slavic" accent was "very light". She did not refer to it as a Russian accent. Chemnitz's original letter to the Nachtausgabe stated she was transferred to AA's ward in the summer of 1922, apparently later she changed this to 1921. If 1922 was correct then Clara was there before Chemnitz.

I would like to point out that Franziska was Kashoubian which by some is considered a Polish Dialect, others consider it an independent language (with probable roots in Polish). Felix Schanzkowski also stated that his sister knew "some" Polish. It would make sense that Franziska would be able to gather some of what was being said to her in Russian or another Slavic language. Her ability to speak it though-would be dependent upon learning it. Could a Pomeranian such as Franziska have encountered Russians in her hometown near Gdansk? Looking at a map one can see Gdansk's close proximity to Russia. Geography and Map of Poland

[Both Gilliard's initial book about the Romanovs and Wilton's book had both been published by the time Chemnitz arrived at Dalldorf.]

(PS Bear, I wish that your construction runs smoothly and on time)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Remember the TIMELINE. AA told everyone she was GD Anastasia "in the autumn of 1921". Claire entered Dalldorf later than this.



AGRBear

Bear, remember, this DID NOT HAPPEN. It is totally out of place with the rest of the timeline, makes no sense, and is clearly wrong- either because the nurse lied or got her dates wrong. As Tsarskoe said, the fact that she told the newspaper 1922, then went back and changed it says a lot. Clearly, she was told by someone she needed to predate the real "coming out" in the spring of 1922 to try to help the case, but really, it is impossible considering the rest of the story and the way things played out. Think about it: as soon as she started her claim in 1922, there was much publicity and people were coming around. If this had happened a year earlier, the activity would have come at that time. Also, if AA was "Anastasia" in 1921 why was she "Tatiana" in 1922, not changing until she was ruled "too short?" This is what i mean, it MAKES NO SENSE and can be logicallly discarded as an error in dates or a complete fabrication, and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

Bear, if you're going to make timelines, you should not put in every little questionable and unproveable tidbit, unless you preface it with the disclaimer "allegedly." Really, it's all a matter of logic to see how she gained the knowledge from publications and people over time, and obviously, the 1921 nurse story is not accurate, possibly completely fictional, and should not be considered a part of any 'factual' 'timeline' (at least not without the disclaimer)

 

[AGRBear]

As to her testimony during the trial the nurse Chemnitz commented that AA's "Slavic" accent was "very light". She did not refer to it as a Russian accent. Chemnitz's original letter to the Nachtausgabe stated she was transferred to AA's ward in the summer of 1922, apparently later she changed this to 1921. If 1922 was correct then Clara was there before Chemnitz.

I would like to point out that Franziska was Kashoubian which by some is considered a Polish Dialect, others consider it an independent language (with probable roots in Polish). Felix Schanzkowski also stated that his sister knew "some" Polish. It would make sense that Franziska would be able to gather some of what was being said to her in Russian or another Slavic language. Her ability to speak it though-would be dependent upon learning it. Could a Pomeranian such as Franziska have encountered Russians in her hometown near Gdansk? Looking at a map one can see Gdansk's close proximity to Russia. Geography and Map of Poland

[Both Gilliard's initial book about the Romanovs and Wilton's book had both been published by the time Chemnitz arrived at Dalldorf.]

(PS Bear, I wish that your construction runs smoothly and on time)

I hope so, too!

_____________

tsarskoe: >> Chemnitz's original letter to the Nachtausgabe stated she was transferred to AA's ward in the summer of 1922, apparently later she changed this to 1921. <<

______________
Chat has posted:

... AA left Dalldorf in May 1922 and it would have been totally useless for Malinovsky to even try telling the world that she spoke to AA in fall of 1922. Her hiring date is on the books of Dalldorf, and it was not too long after that AA confessed to her whom she was. Like it or not. ....

_______
As I've said, it appears that Thea, nee [referring to her maiden name] Malinovsky, Chemnitz had given the incorrect year of 1922 or the newspaper reporter had written down the wrong year. Whomever made the error, it was 1921. Therefore, Claire had not arrived at Dalldorf before AA had declared herself as GD Anastasia.

Added to this, Thea had told her future husband, a doctor at Dalldorf, what AA's had told her. I believe he confirmed the date as being 1921 and not 1922. I don't have the source for his testimony. p. 12 of Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON does say:

>>Thea Malinovksy went home and told her fiance, a doctor, about her conversation with Fraeulein Unbekannt.<<

I have not seen the actual testimony of the various nurses and doctors, so, I have no idea if others placed more weight on Thea's testimony about AA's accent being just Slavic or if it was pin down to being Russian. Was this question asked of Bucholz?

Since the Gdansk and Posen (Poznan) area, which is nearer to where FS grew up, are two main areas where people migrated from the east to the west, I assume there were Russians. If AA was FS, was it possible that she learned Russian from someone she knew? It's possible. Could she have learned the language without her family knowing? It's possible. Remember, Gertrude was with her sister in Berlin for a time and she nor did FS's siblings voiced that FS knew Russian, only a little Polish. And, knowing a little Polish doesn't cause a person to have a Polish accent. tsarskoe reminds us, FS's first language was Kashoubian, so it is highly probable FS had this accent as she spoke German as a child. Some people lose their accent and it would take an expert to pick out the hints of someone's original language, other hold on to their accent [strongly to very lightly] their entire life.

Did AA have an accent? The nurses and doctors said she did. So, it seems, German wasn't AA's first language.



AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Whomever made the error, it was 1921.

How can you assert this with absolutely NO proof other than your own desire? She said 1922, and changed it. We cannot prove the reasons for this, I say most likely she backdated it to help AA. There is no proof the incident ever even took place, or if it did, when. You cannot state 'it was 1921' as a fact, as much as you would like to use that to give validity to AA's claim.

Therefore, Claire had not arrived at Dalldorf before AA had declared herself as GD Anastasia.

Again, there is NO way to prove any of the dates as accurate, or prove that anything relayed by this person is even true, or exactly as told. This is a very, very questionable and weak link you have here, and it's wrong and irresponsible to call it a 'fact.'

Did AA have an accent? The nurses and doctors said she did. So, German wasn't her first language.

AGRBear

No, her accent was Kashoub Polish. Russians of today can tell you her accent is not Russian. AA's first languages would have been Russian, and English, neither of which AA initially spoke. She used German, even around native Russian speakers. This is something FS would have done, not AN.

 

[AGRBear]

...[ in part].... if AA was "Anastasia" in 1921 why was she "Tatiana" in 1922, not changing until she was ruled "too short?" This is what i mean, it MAKES NO SENSE and can be logicallly discarded as an error in dates or a complete fabrication, and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

...

It is true that Claire/ Clara Peuthert was the one who claimed AA was GD Tatiana after she read in the Berliner Illustrierte Zeitung titled THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MURER OF THE TSAR At this time period, rumors were sweeping Siberia and was by 1922 all the way to Germany where it was being asked: "Is One of the tsar's Daughters Alive?" Since this was something between AA and Claire, who knows what was said. We do know that Claire after her release on the 20th of Jan 1922, carried her story that AA was GD Tatiana to Capt. Schwabe.

Source pps. 12 - 14 Kurth's ANATASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

... [ in part]....

Again, there is NO way to prove any of the dates as accurate, or prove that anything relayed by this person is even true, or exactly as told. This is a very, very questionable and weak link you have here, and it's wrong and irresponsible to call it a 'fact.'
....

I have no reason to question the testimony of the nurses and doctors at Dalldorf, just as I have no reason to question the information given to us by the nurses and doctors at Martha Jefferson Hosptial. If you have any evidence that anyone has been untruthful or gave misleading evidence, please, I'd like to see it.

One needs to take in ALL the testimonies with an open mind, which I have, since it doesn't matter to me where all of this takes me, you and others. Even if AWF can't see it, I am trying to get some kind of organization and a timeline to which we all can agree, if not on the whole then in part.

What else did the nurses and doctors at Dalldorf tell us about AA?

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I have no reason to question the testimony of the nurses and doctors at Dalldorf, just as I have no reason to question the information given to us by the nurses and doctors at Martha Jefferson Hosptial.

Come on, Bear,there is NO comparison between a comment by ONE person decades ago, with no backup other than her own words and writings (which gave the date of 1922 then changed it) and a hospital with computer files and many records and witnesses to back up their evidence.

If you have any evidence that anyone has been untruthful or gave misleading evidence, please, I'd like to see it.

All we need for proof that the 1921 date is either a lie or a mistake is that AA WAS PROVEN NOT TO BE AN therefore she did not say the things she claimed on the date claimed, and did get her info from books, magazines and other people at a later date.

One needs to take in ALL the testimonies with an open mind,

They are NOT all the same! Anyone can say anything, and not all comments are worthy of the same level of consideration. I realize you hold closely to the ones that look good for AA and disregard those that do not, but to make historically accurate timeline you need to make sure it's very clear that this is only 'alleged' or 'claimed' and not a 'fact' or your work will be no more than propaganda.

since it doesn't matter to me where all of this takes me, you and others.

You say over and over 'you don't care where the truth takes you', yet you obviously did not like the road the REAL truth led to, turned around, went back and got joyfully lost on some twisted back roads which will never lead to what you want to find, because you've already missed the real destination.

Even if AWF can't see it, I am trying to get some kind of organization and a timeline to which we all can agree, if not on the whole then in part.



AGRBear

Make your timeline, but if something- like this one weak quote- without any evidence to back it up is used, you should add that the person ALLEGEDLY CLAIMED or said AA ALLEGEDLY said it, or that she CLAIMED AA said it, not that she DID say it, as a fact, because it's NOT a 'fact.' As I have said many times, you need to get a grip on what is a fact and what is not- while it may be a 'fact' someone said something, that doesn't necessarily make what they said a 'fact'- and this should be made very clear by adding the disclaimer. Also, if you're going to mention it, don't forget to add the truth about how she originally said 1922, then changed it.

 

[AGRBear]

QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by Kleir and Mingay p. 94:

>>...Anna had obtained a copy of Berliner illustrirte Zeitung of 23 October 1921, which carried a story claiming that Grand Duchess Anastasia had escaped the Ekaterinburg massacre. Clara had seen a similarity between Fraulein Unbekannt an the Grand Duchesses and leapt to the conclusion that she was the Tsar's second daughter, Grand Duchess Tatiana.<<

Perhaps a better question would be, if the story claimed GD Anastasia had escaped, and Clara was in some kind of skeme then why did Clara claim AA was Tatiana and not Anastasia? The story about AA was there to take and run with to the Russian community, instead, she told Capt. Schwabe that AA was GD Tatiana.... Why? Did the story indicate that GD Tatiana or any of the other GD escaped? Did she think AA looked more like Tatiana than Anastasia?

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Perhaps a better question would be, if the story claimed GD Anastasia had escaped, and Clara was in some kind of skeme then why did Clara claim AA was Tatiana and not Anastasia?

Because AA looked more like Tatiana than Anastasia.

Did she think AA looked more like Tatiana than Anastasia?

Yes, exactly.

The story about AA was there to take and run with to the Russian community, instead, she told Capt. Schwabe that AA was GD Tatiana.... Why? Did the story indicate that GD Tatiana or any of the other GD escaped? Did she think AA looked more like Tatiana than Anastasia?

AGRBear

Though I have 'wondered out loud' about when and how the scheme began, I really don't think Clara premeditated AA's claim. I think she was a mentally unstable woman (just like AA) and she thought AA looked like Tatiana. Maybe in the beginning she really thought she had a GD in her presence! The 'scheming' and the making up of the ridiculous details such as the trip to Paris came later, after they saw people might actually believe the claim. IMO- this is just my view from all I've read- I am convinced that in the beginning AA knew exactly who she was (FS) and what she was doing (pretending to be AN) and that Clara was in on it and most likely didn't really believe AA to be a Grand Duchess (maybe at first when she saw the pic, but not later after talking to her more. I think she and AA concocted the wild tale of escape which then changed many times, as all lies tend to do)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

For those who forgot it after it was lost when the threads merged, here's Clara's account of AA's story. It's easy to see why this fantastic tale was later discarded in favor of versions added by Von Kliest and eventually perfected into something more 'believable' and sympathetic by the professional writer Harriet Rathlef, whose version is the one that survives to this day, mainly due to Kurth's book. See how different it is from what you usually hear, and how the changing stories only prove more how false it all really was.

(From a translation of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Gilliard, translated by Kransnoe)

[It is necessary to grant special interest to the declarations that the patient gave to Ms. Peuthert and that she recorded in a letter that is addressed to Princess of Prussia, August 23, 1922. (Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of the Empress of Russia)

I wrote in February to the Grand Duke Hesse-Darmstadt that there resides in Dalldorf asylum a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna Romanov.

As I often saw this young lady in photographs during her in her youth, and during a stay which I did in Russia, I promised to get her out of this place where she is living (utterly) abandoned.

She related to me, that at the time of the assassination of the Imperial family, she received injuries to her hand and behind her ear, then was knocked to the floor, upon which she fainted. A mere soldier, named Tschaiikovski, took her and hid her. HIs mother and his sister cared for her. But when it was noticed that a corpse was missing a search was undertaken to find the soldier; the family who was taking care of Anastasia was in danger and fled to Bucharest. As this young lady was alone in the world and the name Romanov could endanger her, Anastasia, then seventeen years old, married the soldier whose family formerly belonged to Polish nobility. Anastasia gave birth to a son that carried the name of Alexis. They lived in Bucharest for a certain period of time, I think about two years, then the family's hideout was discovered; Anastasia's husband was injured by a bullet which struck his lungs; he was brought back seriously injured to the house, where he died, due to the continuous blood loss he suffered.

As a living relative of Anastasia on her mother's side, as sister of the Tsarina, you will understand and forgive that Anastasia, abandoned by all, was not able to have a marriage of her own blood. This is the biggest concern of the unfortunate one to know how you will accept this thing, especially her Grand Mother. This onoe seems besides to be her enemy and wants to take advantage of the assassination of the emperor to govern. This is the reason why Anastasia does not want to emphasize her rights as the Grand Duchess although she is. It is necessary to act with a lot of prudence. I pray you come see this lady. I photographed her last week; though they cannot be very useful, since the young lady is at the moment very sick. She was transported from the Dalldorf asylum to the house of Baron Kleist, who mixed this matter with his own goals and interests and wants to be her only advisor. This is the reason why the lady left this family under a ruse in order to quietly reflect on what she should do.

When Your Highness was this be visiting at Potsdam, the baron did not allow that the young lady to speak to you. I insistently ask that you come to see her at once; only you can prove the truth. Currently, this lady is with a good family, but it is not necessary that the Baron know it. I will reveal you then where she is located.

The young lady does not want one to say that she is the Grand Duchess, or Mrs Tschaiikovsi, for when those who followed her discovered the hideout of her family to Bucharest, she had to flee again. She tried to loose their track leaving first to Paris where she knows a Baron Taube. From Paris, she came to Berlin. She was scarcely there for eight days when someone recognized her. One evening, in an automobile, she was drugged to sleep, they removed her clothes for her and put on others, and she was thrown, still totally drugged, in a lake by the zoo. When she was drug out, it was believed that she had tried to commit suicide, and was driven to the Elisabeth hospital. As she is not known in Warsaw under the name Tschaiikovski, she was transferred to the Dalldorf asylum. It is absurd to believe that this lady, who fled Bucharest in the middle of so many difficulties to save her life, wanted to commit suicide here, in Berlin. Only a madman would concede that. This lady has a firm will to live, (as shown by the fact that) she has already spent three years without her son.

I ask therefore that you take this matter seriously and to examine (to see) if all of this is true. The current situation cannot go on much longer, since more than six months have passed without anyone being concerned for this lady.

She lives like a poor creature! With the highest consideration, (Signed) Marie-Clara Peuthert]

 

[AGRBear]

We know that Clara wanted Capt. Schwabe to believe AA was GD Tatiana after she left Dalldorf 20 Jan. 1922 because this is what she told Capt. Schwabe. According to this letter Clara claims that her letter which she had written to GD Ernst of Hesse told him that "there resides in Dalldof... a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia..." in February 1922 and tells us this to on the 23 of August 1922 in a letter to Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of the Empress of Russia which is found in "From a translation of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Gilliard, translated by Kransnoe" AWF posted.

Clara is contradicting herself. Do we have her letter sent to GD Ernst of Hesse? If we do, does it say AA was GD Anastasia or does it say AA was Tatiana back in Feb. 1922?

AWF, Thank you for reposting the letter.

>>I wrote in February to the Grand Duke Hesse-Darmstadt that there resides in Dalldorf asylum a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna Romanov.

As I often saw this young lady in photographs during her in her youth, and during a stay which I did in Russia, I promised to get her out of this place where she is living (utterly) abandoned.

She related to me, that at the time of the assassination of the Imperial family, she received injuries to her hand and behind her ear, then was knocked to the floor, upon which she fainted. A mere soldier, named Tschaiikovski, took her and hid her. HIs mother and his sister cared for her. But when it was noticed that a corpse was missing a search was undertaken to find the soldier; the family who was taking care of Anastasia was in danger and fled to Bucharest. As this young lady was alone in the world and the name Romanov could endanger her, Anastasia, then seventeen years old, married the soldier whose family formerly belonged to Polish nobility. Anastasia gave birth to a son that carried the name of Alexis. They lived in Bucharest for a certain period of time, I think about two years, then the family's hideout was discovered; Anastasia's husband was injured by a bullet which struck his lungs; he was brought back seriously injured to the house, where he died, due to the continuous blood loss he suffered.<<

Clara claims she had written in Feb. 1922 to GD Ernst of Hesse that AA was GD Anastasia.

As far as we know, Capt. von Schwabe met Clara 6 March 1922, a Sunday, >>in the inner couryard of the Russian embassy church on Unter den Linden selling monarchist propaganda to the faithful.<< p. 16 ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth.

6 March 1922 she told Capt. Schwabe that AA was Tatiana.

On 11 March, Buxhovenden visited AA and annouced her opinion, "She's too short for Tatiana." p. 25 in Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON.

23 August 1922, Clara wrote to Princess Irene of Prussia.

 

[AGRBear]

For some reason my post was repeated.

I eliminated it.

Instead, I'll repeat what Chat posted what nurse Thea, nee Malinovsky, Chemnitz's wrote about the error of 1922 which she claimed should have been 1921:

Let me quote the whole letter to Mr. Pastenaci again, I think there are something you still don't understand here:

Mr. Kurt Pastenaci
Berlin, S.W.48
Friedrichstrasse 218 II

Dear Mr. Pastenaci,
In reply to your letter of 26th September of this year, I have to inform you that I took the post as sister in the asylum at Dalldorf on 21st July, 1921, and made the acquaintance of Mrs. Chaikovski on the very first day of my appointment. The date of commencement of my appointment may be seen on my testimonial. The service book of House 4 of the Dalldorf Asylum - naturally assuming that it was kept regularly by the sister-in-charge - must contain the entry that I was appointed from 21st July, 1921, to "B, upstairs," of the section for docile patients. From the records relating to Mrs. Chaikovski, it must ve verifiable that, in the summer of 1921, she was in "B, upstairs."
I am prepared at any time to depose on oath in Court that Mrs. Chaikovski said to me, in 1921, when I was on night duty, a few months after I entered the service of the institution, that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.
This statement surprised me greatly, because, since 1920, a whole staff of police officers had been trying in vain to identify her. She had been photographed and filmed, addressed in every language, measurements had been taken of her head, the width of her face, her hands and feet; but no success had attended the efforts of the identification deparement. During her stay at Dalldorf, Mrs. Chaikovski's demeanour was not that of a working woman, but that of a lady belonging to the highest social circles.
As the manuscript sent to the Nachtausgabe was not restored to me, for the credit of that journal I can only surmise, either that, by an oversight, I wrote 1922 instead of 1921, or that the mistake was due to a printer's error in the Nachtausgabe.

... [ in part]....

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, digging up Chat's old posts will not help anything. We've all seen them numerous times, I'm not impressed. Just because people try to blame things on the printer doesn't mean it's true, it only makes them sound more like they're making excuses. I am done with the nurse story. It could not and did not happen in 1921. It either happened in 1922 or not at all. When and if AA ever said those things, the info came from somewhere else because- remember SHE WAS NOT AN! What are you trying to prove by pushing this over and over? That since AA said those things she was AN? You seem pretty well hung up on insisting AA said those things to the nurse before she made her claim and that she had no access to publications or emigres at the time. This is of course not accurate, but WHY are you trying so hard to sell this? To give her a chance to be AN? But you don't believe she was AN, remember? Can we discuss something more viable now please?

 

[AGRBear]

People make errors all the time. I know I make errors, and, when the error is brought to my attention, I apologize, and correct my error.

Newspapers are notorious for making errors. I can say this since I was once involved with editors, reporters and the old time printing presses and when a "key man" [I've forgotten the actual term] would sit and place in the old metal letters in a metal frame that was the size of the paper.

AWF, you must realize this is nothing personal. This TIMELINE will be a reference for people so they can know what was happening and when, who read or said or didn't say something plus sources.

I am not trying to convince anyone that AA wasn't GD Anastasia or FS, nor am I trying to convince that she was GD Anastasia or FS. I'm letting the members and non-members reading these post make up their own minds.


I do understand AWF's frustrations. Everyone who has tried to unravel all of this has and will continue to be or become frustrated. Less frustration will occur if everyone works as a unit instead of .

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Where were we. Oh, yes. Clara Peuthert.

ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSTON p. 13:

>>...she had also served the Germans as kind of a pennny agent, an intermittently reliable source of high-class gossip.<<

Did Clare hear some gossip about some mystery woman at Dalldorf who was claimed to be one of the Russian Grand Duchesses before she was admitted into Dalldorf?

She certainly made an effort to make sure that she gained proper medical certificate [p. 13]: >>attesting to the fact that "she was not mad only pathological.<<

I have to wonder, did Clara know what "pathological" means?

p. 14

Evidently, it was just before Clara left Dalldorf, AA asked Clara to write to >>"...to her grandmother...living in Denmark. then there was "an aunt" in Germany.<<

>>Six weeks later, after Clara Peuthert had sounded the alarm, Fraeulein Unbekannt summoned the nurses to her bedside. The nurses had never seen her in such agitation. This was "a case of espionage," she cried. What did the doctors know? It would be all over the newspapers, she was sure of it.<<

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, what I'm saying about the timeline is that things that are shaky and unprovable should not be included unless they have an added disclaimer that someone ALLEGEDLY said it or ALLEGEDLY claimed. Look at the TV news, even people caught standing over a body with a gun who confess to the crime are still called the ALLEGED murderer until it's officially proven. This nurse story is so unstable and questionable, inaccurate or even ficticious, it surely does not deserve to be listed as a 'fact' on a 'timeline.' Everything else that can be attributed only to one person's word of mouth, on either side, should be treated the same way- for example the man who said he heard her yell out in Polish in church. That's against AA, but it is only one person's word for it and unprovable.

As I said before, I am quite finished with the nurse story, I have said all I'm going to on it, and nothing is going to make me feel differently, especially not more of Chat's old posts being dredged up. I also said before that if I wasn't impressed by his posts someone else reusing them will impress me even less. I'm sure everyone who reads this forum is well aware of all that Chat has said, and there's really no need to keep repeating it.

The only purpose of continuing to press the nurse story is to try to prove one thing and one thing only: that AA was AN and had info only those in the murder room could have known and had no access to any books or people who may have told her. The ONLY reason to push the (fake) nurse story is to try to make AA look like she had amazing info and had it sooner than first thought (which of course she did not) and that she was AN (which of course she did not) So, Bear, if you do not believe AA was AN, WHY are you pushing it? Sorry but your old 'truth' excuse does not work, since we've been through it all and there's no proof it's true, and there IS proof AA was not AN, the DNA tests you refuse to accept. No, you do not want the truth, you want a game, or a wild goose chase until you find an answer you like better (that will never be the truth, because we already have that, sorry you don't like it)

 

[ChatNoir]

And why are you pushing so hard against nurse Malinovski's story? Does it interfer with your ideas?
The funny thing here is that YOU are the one who keep pushing Vorre's story about what AA said at the Mommsen clinic, well knowing that Vorres was not there, and those who were, do not support it, including Olga.
You are the one who are pushing the story about Dmitri Leuchtenberg stating that Kastritsky gave evidence against AA, although it has been disproved.
You are the one who is pushing the story about FS having had a child in spite of NO evidence.
You are the one who are pushing the story of FS receiving wounds to her body at the explosion at the AEG in spite of evidence to the contrary.
How come that it is apparently ok to state something that you cannot prove, while protesting Bear's posting about nurse Malinovski? We know that Malinovski gave evidence to Edward Fallows, and she also testified in Hamburg. If I can find the testimony, I will post it on Bear's site.
In the meantime, it would be fun to hear what you have to say in your defense.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And why are you pushing so hard against nurse Malinovski's story? Does it interfer with your ideas?

It is impossible because it goes against REALITY. AA did NOT come out as a GD until she was "Tatiana" in 1922. I have explained all this before. Either the story did not happen or the dates were wrong, and the date given of 1922 was correct and later changed to help AA's case, but it makes no sense.

The funny thing here is that YOU are the one who keep pushing Vorre's story about what AA said at the Mommsen clinic, well knowing that Vorres was not there, and those who were, do not support it, including Olga.

Olga was there, and DID support it. You like to take things out of context and things that were contradicted. Olga did NOT think AA was her niece. She gave a sickly, emaciated woman a chance and decided the answer was NO. (yes just like the woman who took home the wrong dog)

You are the one who are pushing the story about Dmitri Leuchtenberg stating that Kastritsky gave evidence against AA, although it has been disproved.

It has NOT been 'disproved'. He did indeed tell royal relatives it looked nothing like her teeth.

You are the one who is pushing the story about FS having had a child in spite of NO evidence.

For the ten millionth time, in those days an out of wedlock girl did not flaunt or record her pregnancy, she hid it. So it means NOTHING AT ALL that there is no record of FS having a baby (and it also could have been miscarried or aborted) The fact is, AA was FS, and since AA was shown to have been pregnant, therefore FS was too.

You are the one who are pushing the story of FS receiving wounds to her body at the explosion at the AEG in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Massie and others have recorded the story of the explosion and her injuries. The explosion happened. There is NO EVIDENCE to the contrary- NONE- other than one person claiming to have seen it and never producing or proving it. Use logic here- no records could have survived two world wars devastating Berlin, practices going out of business, old records being thrown away, and don't forget the most illogical thing of all, that it would have not surfaced in thirty years of trial! No, you keep on touting that but it's only a phantom nobody can prove and people only get mad when you ask them for it. It's just another Easter Bunny.

How come that it is apparently ok to state something that you cannot prove, while protesting Bear's posting about nurse Malinovski? We know that Malinovski gave evidence to Edward Fallows, and she also testified in Hamburg. If I can find the testimony, I will post it on Bear's site.
In the meantime, it would be fun to hear what you have to say in your defense.

To FALLOWS? Oh that just makes her look ten times more suspicious! Fallows, who helped start GRANDANOR corporation that offered payoffs to supporters if AA won? Fallows, who wrote to Adolph Hitler himself, using anti-semitism against the Bolsheviks and begging for help for AA? Hmmm your nurse is looking fishier all the time.The more I read about AA's story the more holes I find it it. I was just reading "Lost Fortune of the Tsars" and it's even more obvious than ever AA's claim was about money and AA was used by people like Fallows who hoped to get rich off of her being "Anastasia". So naturally there would be people who would do and say things to help her case along if it would eventually pay off for them. This GREED casts a lot of shadow of doubt on a lot of those who allegedly supported her.

I CAN prove it, because AA is not AN. You must remember that, Chat. AA was not AN. That means all your trying to make me look like a laughingstock really backfires on you because I am not the one who believes AA was AN and disregards several DNA tests by respectable scientists and the fact that ALL THE BODIES ARE NOW ACCOUNTED FOR AND ALL CLAIMANTS ARE FAKE! Sorry Chat, nothing you can say or do to me will ever change that. AA WAS NOT AN. Get over it now for your own good.

 

[ChatNoir]

Actually, AA did come out in fall of 1921 to Thea Malinovsky, telling her that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia, and giving her details from the last night in Ekaterinburg. Miss Malinovsky then went home and told her fiance, Doctor Chemnitz, about the whole thing. He brushed it aside with a "What else do you expect to hear in a lunatic asylum." Later, the Nachtausgabe stated that Malinovsky heard the story from AA in the fall of 1922, either because of a misprint or a deliberate changing of the date. But, as we all know, Malinovsky and AA were long separated in the fall of 1922 and could therefore not have had any conversation. Thus the Nachtausgabe's version is definitely not true.
As for Olga, she walked into the room where AA was, greeted her and talked with her in lenght. Only after she was gone, did Herluf Zahle say to AA: "Who was the lady?" AA answered: "That was my aunt Olga, Papa's sister." "Why did you not greet her by name when she walked in?" "I was so happy, I could say nothing." This version is verified by Rathleff-Keilmann, Zahle and Professor Rudnev. And Olga said, after having seen Frau Rathleff's manuscript, that her story was "quite correct".
Kastritsky said, after having seen plaster casts of AA's teeth and verified that she had inherited characteristics of the teeth: "Would I have left the Grand Duchess' teeth in that condition." And that was all he said. He did not bring his charts from Russia, and was in no position to prove anything.
FS left no proof of ever having been pregnant. Her family denied it, and her medical reports say nothing of it.
The explosion at AEG did not do any physical damage to her, this has also been verified by her family and medical reports from AEG. According to Felix S, she did not go into the hospital till some time after the explosion. If she had been physically damaged, she would have been admitted immediately.
Edward Fallows was AA's attorney, and the purpose of Grandanor was not to pay supporters. It was to pay Fallows for his services, and pay back the investors. IF there was a fortune in England. As we know, Fallows ended up bankrupting himself, and Grandanor was a total failure.
Again, you have shown no proof for your stories, just "It didn't happen or it did happen because I say so."

 

[Penny Royalty]

It's been nice to follow how you debacle. It's notable how you gather your information to persuade us all of your viewed reality. The acclamations are impressive. I see it as one who is introduced to the story at hand without having a bias about the outcome other than it portraying justice. So I keep reading and, if you will, entertained through and through. At a later time I will pry more in depth about the matter. For now I will follow your interesting portrayals. I hope you may actually get closer to unravel the mystery. Good luck.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat, no matter how many times you keep repeating decades old quotes and your personal version of the truth, it's NEVER going to turn real. It's over, AA has been proven not to be AN and therefore everyone who was helping her was either a liar or made a mistake. None of those old comments mean thing now.

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat, no matter how many times you keep repeating decades old quotes

These "quotes" happen to be testimony in court and written accounts by witnesses.

and your personal version of the truth,

No, not my personal version, but the version from those who were there.

it's NEVER going to turn real. It's over, AA has been proven not to be AN and therefore everyone who was helping her was either a liar or made a mistake. None of those old comments mean thing now.

The only thing I am after, is the true story. And I do not understand why this seems to rile you up so much.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

These "quotes" happen to be testimony in court and written accounts by witnesses.

There were also quotes by people against her. In every court case, one side turns out to be wrong. In this case, it was the AA side who was wrong.

No, not my personal version, but the version from those who were there.

There is also a lot of evidence from 'people who were there' that is very much against her. You may call them liars, just as I doubt the word of many of her supporters. How do we know who was right and/or telling the truth? THE DNA gave us the answer! Now we know! AA loses!

The only thing I am after, is the true story. And I do not understand why this seems to rile you up so much.

We HAVE the true story, yet you continue to deny its existence and play games with your same old he said she saids that have been proven wrong and rendered pointless and useless by the DNA. I didn't say so, the DNA said so. This is how we know. Those who do not accept it simply deny reality.

 

[ChatNoir]

So why does the Malinovsky story have to be totally denied?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

No, not my personal version, but the version from those who were there.

The proof is Anastasia's relatives who actually met her and knew her well, to know that she defiantly wasn't Anastasia. They have so much more evidence to back this up, than any of the AA supporters do with their belief of 'AA being Anastasia'.

The only thing I am after, is the true story. And I do not understand why this seems to rile you up so much.

It's quite sad that you don't actually read the real information about Anna Anderson on Anna's website, or read the information we give you...Anna was Franziska has the true story that has been backed up and proven by the real Anastasia's family members and DNA. For some reason, it seems you refuse to believe in the DNA. Most of your information can't be proven, there's no major evidence to prove it. AA not being Anastasia has been proven so many times to be accurate. AA can't be Anastasia because she didn't know Russian, English and French well. AA was also declared mentally ill and sick. Anastasia never was mentally ill, or sick she was energetic and joyful. Plus, she made up information about 'Ernest visiting Russia in 1916' this wasn't even true..

So why does the Malinovsky story have to be totally denied?

It's not true, it's inaccurate. Malinovsky didn't even know the real Anastasia. It's not good to get any resources from these people, especially if they didn't know the person AA claims to be. Of course, they would believe AA was Anastasia because they couldn't have know Anastasia well enough like Olga Alexandrovna, Grand duke Ernest and others to deny that AA wasn't Anastasia. They knew Anastasia very much.

 

[AGRBear]

Because Nurse Thea, nee Malinovsky, Chemnitz testified that AA told Thea that she was GD Anastasia, doesn't mean AA was GD Anastasia. All it means is that AA told her in the autumn of 1921.

Just because Thea was the recipient of AA's coversation doesn't make Thea the lier. She just testified what she heard.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Because Nurse Thea, nee Malinovsky, Chemnitz testified that AA told Thea that she was GD Anastasia, doesn't mean AA was GD Anastasia. All it means is that AA told her in the autumn of 1921.

Just because Thea was the recipient of AA's coversation doesn't make Thea the lier. She just testified what she heard.

AGRBear

So why does the Malinovsky story have to be totally denied?

Again: she did NOT hear anything in the fall of 1921. The date was either wrong ,and it happened after AA's claim began, or it was completely fabricated in cahoots with Fallows to help her cause with a promise of a payoff from Grandanor.The fact that she told the paper 1922 and then tried to change it and blame the error on the paper instead of herself is beyond suspicious and unbelievable.

Again, we must use LOGIC: AA's claim began in early 1922 when Clara said she looked like TATIANA. People came to see her under the premise she was TATIANA. She did nothing to deny being Tatiana until Bux declared her 'too short to be Tatiana.' Then she changed to, surprise, the only Grand Duchess who shared her height (though her face was much less like AN than Tatiana)

THAT is the REAL story. Now let's play 'which one of these things doesn't belong'- WHY, if all this elaborate commentary about her being AN had really happened months earlier, did nothing come of the claim? Most of all, WHY, if she was so descriptive about being "Anastasia" already, was she cowering under the sheets as "Tatiana" with no mention of "Anastasia" until AFTER the 'she's too short' visit from Bux? EASY! NOTHING HAPPENED in 1921, it all happened in 1922, and the earlier date is a desperate attempt by Fallows to try to legitimize the claim by making it look like the above paragraph (true story) wasn't the beginning. However, it was. It's even more certain and proved now that we know for sure AA was not AN because of the DNA. So, hang onto the same comment and post it over and over and over again, it's never, ever going to turn true, it's no contest against reality, because logical thinking, deduction, common sense and most of all science is against it. She either lied or got the date wrong. End of story.

It's really no more valid than this: In 1972 Sharon Schmitz confided to me that her uncle, Robert, as a guard in the Army, witnessed that Fort Knox was actually empty, and this is why it's so heavily guarded, so no one will know the country is broke (though I guess now we all know anyway!) But the point here is, just because someone said someone said something on a certain date does NOT make it a 'fact.'

And don't forget, there were books telling the stories out in 1920.

 

[ChatNoir]

It is simply amazing how hard you are trying to change the story of Thea Malinovsky. But you have nothing, absolutely nothing, to back up your stories with. And slandering the people involved is not helping your own credibility.
AA told Thea Malinovsky in the fall of 1921 that she was Anastasia. She was very upset, told her of the last night in Ekaterinburg and then suggested that they run away to join the Foreign Legion as nurses. It is not like she wanted the whole world to know who she was, she apparently wanted to be as anynomous as possible. That is probably also why she neither confirmed, nor denied Clara Peuthert's charge that she was Tatiana. The woman, whoever she was, was definitely no publicity seeker. And to try to place the confession to nurse Malinovsky in the fall of 1922, is simply useless. AA left Dalldorf in May of 1922 and never saw Malinovsky again. Somehow, I don't think you will ever get this point.
And again, I am still wondering why it is so important to you to neutralize miss Malinovsky?