Finding Freedom: Harry and Meghan and the Making of A Modern Royal Family

[US Royal Watcher]

Really? People don't get on with their in laws all that well a lot of the time. And given that Meg's short life as a royal seems to have started well in terms of her relationship with the RF, and then gone downhill pretty quickly I doubt if she is one of those who does get on with them.

I see what you are saying but to me, there is a difference between getting on with the royal family and loving and caring for them. There are may people who don't get along with certain family members but they still love them. I believe Harry when he said that he would always be there for William. I think that if Charles or the Queen really needed him, he would be there. Also, in my experience, loving spouses care about their in-laws because they don't want the spouse to be hurt.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

All this talk about Harry being stifled and not allowed to live his own life. What exactly would Harry have done if he hadn't been a member of the Royal Family? What great career has he been held back from having? By all accounts, he did well in the Army, but he chose to leave. If he'd wanted to stay in the Army, I very much doubt that the Queen or Prince Charles would have insisted that he leave in order to become a full time working royal. It was his choice.

It will be interesting to see what the book actually says but I assume that the issue is not that Harry didn't want to be a member of the royal family but rather, he wanted a different role. I think I have posted this before, but I believe that they reached a point of no return when Buckingham Palace took control of their media relations. Harry and Meghan wanted to control their own message and he expected William's support and didn't get it.

 

[Queen Claude]

There was a report (don't remember how credible it was) that William supported Harry getting his own court but ultimately it was decided by The Queen and Prince of Wales that Harry not get his own court and he and Meghan ended up joining the Buckingham Palace organization.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

There was a report that William supported Harry getting his own court but ultimately it was decided by The Queen and Prince of Wales that Harry not get his own court and he and Meghan ended up joining the Buckingham Palace organization.

Very interesting. If it's true that William supported Harry, I wonder what prompted the anger at William and Kate. It will be interesting to see what the book says because the events that have been disclosed so far do not seem to serious enough to have caused such a huge rift.

 

[Betsypaige]

I like Hugo Vickers - I don't know how I missed this from last week, but.....there's a lot of good stuff here, so I'll post this part:

I believe, by the way, that the couple’s belief that they could be financially independent was seriously mistaken.

The book suggests that the Sussexes had hoped to earn a living through speaking engagements and commercial deals, particularly ones with positive social impact.

Why did Harry think he might have commercial value when he was no longer a member of the Royal Family? The world still thinks of him travelling in a carriage as a Prince and appearing in regalia on the balcony of Buckingham Palace.

Yet in his new, American incarnation he sports a bushy beard and wears a woolly hat. Try marketing that!

The truth, of course, is that when people give you money, they want something in return. Harry has been very well protected by the Royal Household and the system he has now rejected – a fact that will become increasingly clear.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Prince-Harry-learned-Diana-compete-Queen.html

There was a report (don't remember how credible it was) that William supported Harry getting his own court but ultimately it was decided by The Queen and Prince of Wales that Harry not get his own court and he and Meghan ended up joining the Buckingham Palace organization.

This is the original report - nothing about William, and to be honest, I don't think he would have said anything about it.

Harry and Meghan are understood to have lobbied for an autonomous new court, but the Queen and the Prince of Wales, who will jointly fund their office, thought otherwise.

A royal source said: “They wanted their household to be entirely independent of Buckingham Palace, but were told ‘no’. There is an institutional structure that doesn’t allow that kind of independence. The feeling is that it’s good to have the Sussexes under the jurisdiction of Buckingham Palace, so they can’t just go off and do their own thing.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

 

[Queen Claude]

Very interesting. If it's true that William supported Harry, I wonder what prompted the anger at William and Kate. It will be interesting to see what the book says because the events that have been disclosed so far do not seem to serious enough to have caused such a huge rift.

It seems like the jumping off point of the rift was William's comment to Harry about rushing things with Meghan and Harry feeling that William was getting in the way of his happiness and was being snobbish. One of the comments made early on was that the relationship never recovered. Despite the gushiness of the engagement interview, it stated that Harry stopped visiting the Cambridges, bringing gifts for the kids and whatnot, and the Cambridges stopped inviting Harry over.

There was a report earlier this year that the relationship between both brothers had gotten very bad and William was accused of bullying but the brothers then issued a joint statement denying that allegation.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

It seems like the jumping off point of the rift was William's comment to Harry about rushing things with Meghan and Harry feeling that William was getting in the way of his happiness and was being snobbish. One of the comments made early on was that the relationship never recovered. Despite the gushiness of the engagement interview, it stated that Harry stopped visiting the Cambridges, bringing gifts for the kids and whatnot, and the Cambridges stopped inviting Harry over.

That is Harry's story but it seems that it could be a rewriting of history - that after the relationship became strained, Harry claimed it was because of the remark, rather than anything Harry did. Harry and William seemed very much on the same page during the months proceeding the wedding. During the awards ceremony following the polo match, Harry tried to put his arm around William and was rebuffed, which doesn't seem like Harry was the angry with William. Same with the Commonwealth service.

 

[muriel]

Meghan would have spoken to close friends about her feelings for Harry (they fell in love very quickly) and about her anxieties about her father not coming to her wedding. Scobie and Carolyn have never said they haven't spoken to Harry and Meghan's close friends about the couple.

If the courple did not speak to the authors, it is clear their close friends clearly did, with their consent. All seems reminiscient of the Andrew Morton book, c1992!

 

[Pranter]

At the polo match they seemed to get on very well in the pics I saw, although the wives didn't seem overly chatty or friendly. It was after that event I first saw any pics suggesting there was a strain (the rumors were out before the polo match). The CWS was the first time it was very obvious there was a strain between them.


LaRae

 

[US Royal Watcher]

At the polo match they seemed to get on very well in the pics I saw, although the wives didn't seem overly chatty or friendly. It was after that event I first saw any pics suggesting there was a strain (the rumors were out before the polo match). The CWS was the first time it was very obvious there was a strain between them.


LaRae

This is what I am referring to:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...-royal-rift-meghan-markle-kate-middleton-polo

If you are correct, that, once again. casts doubt on the claim that the rift happened because William advised Harry to take things slower with Meghan.

 

[Pranter]

I don't think the advice from William (which could of been very early on in the relationship) to take things slow was that big of a deal, if it caused a glitch they looked pretty over it by the time the polo match took place, they were very friendly while playing, there's pics of it. I think likely it was much bigger issues or several issues that built up by the time we see them at the CWS where it was very obvious there was a strain.

ETA I remember the video from when it happened and I just don't see any snub happening there.

LaRae

 

[Sun Lion]

Thanks to "The TImes"/"The Sunday Times" we have this quote from "Finding Freedom".

"Every conversation, every issue, every personal disagreement, whatever it may be, involves staff" - a quote from a source.

If that is so, particularly "every personal disagreement", no wonder things leaked out. No secrets possible.

The book goes on to quote the source as saying - "It creates a really weird environment that actually doesn't allow people to sort things out themselves".

 

[Queen Claude]

This is the original report - nothing about William, and to be honest, I don't think he would have said anything about it.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

Here is what I am referencing:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...iam-stepped-fight-Harry-Meghan-household.html


Although the headline states that William supported the Sussexes getting their own household, the detail of the article focuses more on William supporting the Sussexes getting a larger budget. This is from a podcast, I will try and locate a link to the podcast to see if that sheds more light.

 

[Sun Lion]

A balanced view.

In my view the press have a lot to answer for, but it will be a long time before we see a true investigation of the racist coverage of Meghan.

The book has stirred up so many reactions that it is impossible to see how any good can come of it. Harry and Meghan have been misguided if they directed or allowed their friends to be sources. Of course, they seem to have been misguided about a lot of things, if the excerpts from the book are accurate and there is any truth to the book! I have said it before and I will say it again...they are both adults. They could have chosen to act differently in many situations but for reasons of temperament or motivation they didn’t. They have a lot of fences to mend, if they want to.

I agree caethi, the personalities/temperaments of both the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have played a big, big part in what has happened.

Other people - in the same situation - could have achieved a totally different outcome than the couple have for themselves.

 

[Iluvbertie]

If the Queen wants it removed, she will get it removed and the Parliament will follow. The difference between Prince Andrew is that he isn't attacking the other members of his family as they are. The book clearly comes from them or someone they told this information to and it's attempting to harm the future King/Queen.

Anyhow, couldn't they lose their titles in America?

[...].

The Queen does NOT tell parliament what laws to pass. The only reason why titles have been removed is for treason. The last time it happened those who lost their titles had been fighting against Britain for three years before the government acted. Harry hasn't done that. There is no reason for his titles to be removed.
[...]

 

[Sun Lion]

Harry won't have the position or privileges that William does and will but he also had a lot more freedom to do his own thing as well. William and Kate will always be in the spotlight no matter what they do (assuming the monarchy survives) and didn't have the option of having their children be plain M-W. Or the option of considering leaving on a short term or long term basis without a constitutional crisis.

Look at Anne and Edward. After some rocky times both appear to be happy with their lives, they get the perks, carry out engagements have their own personal charities and causes (Sophie has travelled extensively promoting girls health and education but gets a fraction of the publicity for it) and live their private lives as they see fit. If they had gone about it differently then they might have even been able to have a little more in/out leeway.

Even Andrew had previous had roles he loved as official trade envoy etc.

It seemed like important roles were being lined up for them, especially with the Commonwealth, as well as things like the National Theatre which is no small potatoes.

But that's not even the thing about this book. The extracts we've seen and reviews by people that have read the whole book don't lay out why the Sussexes couldn't stand to be there beyond petty and somewhat trivial slights and resentments or what they'll be able to do that's so much better now they're out. Or why they had to announce it half cocked in January and not when it was all sorted out.

Your last paragraph Heavs - this is the big thing.

Why relate all these little slights, why let the cat out of the bag over these nothings.

Why put these things in a book and have the book say, this is why we ran away to a better life.

 

[Iluvbertie]

One of the comments in the book is about her and Kate being on "Equal footing" or something so she thought they would have bonded more. They really aren't on equal footing minus the same title, Kate will one day be a Princess and future Queen.

I am shocked how little regard Harry has for the monarchy he was raised in. He seemed bitter that his brother had better events. Like he should have known William would be King. I wonder if Meghan has been egging him on that he is a lesser.

Both Catherine and Meghan are princesses of the UK.

In the UK a wife takes on all the titles of her husband and as their husbands are princes both women are princesses.

In the UK, unlike in Europe, the wife of a prince is princess husband's name so Catherine is HRH Princess William and Meghan HRH Princess Henry. The Queen promoted both Princes from commoners (being a Prince is not a title in the British peerage) to Peers of the Realm so their most senior title went from being Prince to Duke so their wives use the most senior of their husband's titles - Duchess. Princess is the most junior of their titles behind Duchess, Countess and Baroness.

When you look at the wives of British princes only one uses the style of Princess - Princess Michael of Kent ... the lowest ranked Princess. The others are all princesses but their husbands have higher titles for them to use. A good one to look at is the present Duchess of Gloucester. When she married her husband was HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester, the second son of the Duke of Gloucester. She expected to spend her life as the wife of an architect as HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. Then his older brother died and a couple of years later her father-in-law and her husband became HRH The Duke of Gloucester and she is Duchess. She didn't stop being a Princess but she started using the higher title of Duchess.

 

[Sun Lion]

That is why it is all so sad, those early days were really good.
They had so much to offer to the country, the family, everybody.
The press has not been easy, but a great deal of what we have heard from the book, are moans re the family and courtiers. We are in a pandemic, millions of British people might lose their jobs when furlough stops, kids may or may not go back to school in the next few weeks, Exam results are about to be announced for exams that nobody actually sat, future options for university are doubtful, there is a real threat of a second spike and we are reading that Meghan was upset and Harry was angry that her hairdresser who she flew over from Paris could not use the priceless diamond tiara for a wedding trial......... we have more important things to think about..they just do not get it.

It was fantastic when they were here in Sydney Hallo girl - a really wonderful time, everything positive and upbeat.

Who could have imagined we'd be where we are now.

And goodness knows what may yet spill out of "FInding Freedom". This is going to blow up all over again when the full book is available.

 

[Duchess_Watcher]

How can anyone believe they had "Nothing" to do with the book. The information is private, personal and they either told someone or Omid got it from them + covering for them. This information is just too private.

 

[Iluvbertie]

And the worst World crisis in ages is showing that this "antiquated business" is stronger and relevant than ever.
People are not stupid, they pretty now that the Windsors are not perfect, they are humans. Still the system works, the "CEO " is, basically venerated by an entire nation and all the senior royals are more popular than ever because, despite their flaws, they knew how to react in a time of crisis.
The uproar is very much about an insanly ill timed book who does'nt even show its main subjects in a good light. It will go down in the flush of 2020 in few months (if not weeks with the already laughable Lady Campbell's coming up), the Monarchy , as an institution, is safe and sound for the next century.

Not just an entire nation but pretty much the world.

She is an institution in herself.

 

[Duchess_Watcher]

I am well aware but what they are. I am merely talking about the styles.

 

[muriel]

I think I have posted this before, but I believe that they reached a point of no return when Buckingham Palace took control of their media relations. Harry and Meghan wanted to control their own message and he expected William's support and didn't get it.

The choice was to stay under KP, CH or BP control. That is just the way it is!

 

[Iluvbertie]

All this talk about Harry being stifled and not allowed to live his own life. What exactly would Harry have done if he hadn't been a member of the Royal Family? What great career has he been held back from having? By all accounts, he did well in the Army, but he chose to leave. If he'd wanted to stay in the Army, I very much doubt that the Queen or Prince Charles would have insisted that he leave in order to become a full time working royal. It was his choice.

Harry stated in November 2014 that he wanted to have a full 20 year army career - just as Andrew has served for over 20 years in the navy. No one objected. The army told him he had to do a couple of years of desk duties ... and so he quit. He wanted to do the 'action' type stuff but also get the promotions but that isn't the way the military works. That was well reported at the time ... that the army would even help him use that time to set up Invictus.

Philip didn't like doing desk work but he did he time to get the promotion that took him to command of his ship in Malta. Andrew did his time doing desk duties to get his promotions but that wasn't Harry's way. He expected to get the promotions and get his own way even in the army it seems.

 

[Queen Claude]

That is Harry's story but it seems that it could be a rewriting of history - that after the relationship became strained, Harry claimed it was because of the remark, rather than anything Harry did. Harry and William seemed very much on the same page during the months proceeding the wedding. During the awards ceremony following the polo match, Harry tried to put his arm around William and was rebuffed, which doesn't seem like Harry was the angry with William. Same with the Commonwealth service.

The overall point I was making is that the relationship never recovered from Harry and William's disagreement about the pace of Harry's relationship with Meghan. The trigger / jumping off point was the discussion but from there it seems like there were additional negative incidents and/or distancing between the brothers and their families that without any sustained re-connection.

 

[Sun Lion]

I think that ratehr than "What Meghan wants Meg gets" it would be more accurate to say that Harry and Meg both think that they should have whatever they want..... and get annoyed at any refusals.
And in some ways H is more to blame, because he is a royal and should know the restrictions of the role.. whereas there's some excuse for Meg not knowing them. I dont know if He is so attached to Meg that he is sometimes afraid to put her straight on things, because he is so happy that she has married him.. and does not want to lose her...or whether he honestly doesn't know that the job comes with restrictions and rules..
Im very confused about them, as they are so volatile.. I dont know if the decision to leave was a really long standing plan.. maybe thought up by both of them at the time of marriage ro soon after.. Maybe he said to her "OK, this job will have restrictions but we can get out of it in a few years"...
OR maybe she got angry and upset soon after her marriage and wanted out so he was willing to go along with it..

They threw so much away Denville - and so quickly.

And they had some amazing support.

Someone posted a few days ago - it may have been you Betsypaige, sorry if it was another contributor - about how Sara Latham was willing to move her life to somewhere in Africa to be with them. (When that plan was on the table.)

For six months each year.

I wouldn't have done it!

No offense to Africa intended, but when you're working for the Royal Family in London, you must be really special to be willing to move continents to continue to support them.

 

[Betsypaige]

Here is what I am referencing:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...iam-stepped-fight-Harry-Meghan-household.html


Although the headline states that William supported the Sussexes getting their own household, the detail of the article focuses more on William supporting the Sussexes getting a larger budget. This is from a podcast, I will try and locate a link to the podcast to see if that sheds more light.

Thanks ! I think that’s different than H and M getting their own “court” at Windsor?

 

[Countessmeout]

How is it when the tabloids print stories about other royals like 'reaveals the private anxiety she feels over her children.....' people are quick to slam it. Oh the sources are fake. No one would ever reveal that. Their friends would never speak. Blah blah blah.

But the same is not given to the Sussexes. Clearly they talked. Clearly their friends talked. They are all money hungry fame whores.


Sorry but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess that Meghan felt anxiety about her dad around the wedding. That doesn't take 'inside source'.

Unless there are some real inside details, not just 'she felt anxious' I see no real reason to believe that the Sussexes or their actual friends were sources.

 

[QueenMathilde]

Both Catherine and Meghan are princesses of the UK.

In the UK a wife takes on all the titles of her husband and as their husbands are princes both women are princesses.

In the UK, unlike in Europe, the wife of a prince is princess husband's name so Catherine is HRH Princess William and Meghan HRH Princess Henry. The Queen promoted both Princes from commoners (being a Prince is not a title in the British peerage) to Peers of the Realm so their most senior title went from being Prince to Duke so their wives use the most senior of their husband's titles - Duchess. Princess is the most junior of their titles behind Duchess, Countess and Baroness.

When you look at the wives of British princes only one uses the style of Princess - Princess Michael of Kent ... the lowest ranked Princess. The others are all princesses but their husbands have higher titles for them to use. A good one to look at is the present Duchess of Gloucester. When she married her husband was HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester, the second son of the Duke of Gloucester. She expected to spend her life as the wife of an architect as HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. Then his older brother died and a couple of years later her father-in-law and her husband became HRH The Duke of Gloucester and she is Duchess. She didn't stop being a Princess but she started using the higher title of Duchess.

Well the could at least remove the HRH. They did that with Diana and Fergie.


But I'm fine with Harry and Meghan going off on their own. The book is what upsets me.


I don't think the Queen, Charles or William treated them that poorly. They followed royal protocol which comes off as stiff and unfeeling. I don't think they meant it to be.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Well the could at least remove the HRH. They did that with Diana and Fergie.

Only after Diana's divorce.

For the months from Sarah's divorce until Diana's Sarah was still HRH.

Why remove the HRH - something Harry was born with. In 1936, after the abdication, when the BBC was about to introduce Edward VIII to the public for his address they said they were going to use Mr Edward Windsor but George VI said 'no, he is the son of a King and thus will always be HRH and Prince'. Harry, although not the son of a King, was born HRH and Prince and he hasn't done anything to warrant removing HRH.

If they ever divorce the Meghan will lose it but otherwise there is no reason to remove it.

But I'm fine with Harry and Meghan going off on their own. The book is what upsets me.

The book doesn't worry me ... it shows the way things are from the point of view of the two reporters, who will probably find that their access to the royals will be ended now.

I don't think the Queen, Charles or William treated them that poorly. They followed royal protocol which comes off as stiff and unfeeling. I don't think they meant it to be.

Royal protocol isn't 'still and unfeeling'. It is there for a reason and that is to ensure the smooth running of the institution.

What these books. not just this one but all the ones that have come out, have shown is that Meghan suffered from a massive culture shock and should have taken more time to not only get to know Harry but get to know the culture of the family and the country into which she was marrying. She wasn't just marrying Harry but into a 1000 year old institution and she struggled because as an outsider who hadn't grown up with the monarchy she simply thought is was something it wasn't. She didn't realise that she was no longer able to say what she wanted but had to have things approved for instance. She faced the difference between the American live to work culture compared to the UK's work to live culture. I am sure she was horrified to find out that her staff were entitled to six weeks paid leave a year and could take the lot in one go for instance, as well as the strict adherence to work hours with unions being very strong to insist that workers rights are protected.

 

[Curryong]

They threw so much away Denville - and so quickly.

And they had some amazing support.

Someone posted a few days ago - it may have been you Betsypaige, sorry if it was another contributor - about how Sara Latham was willing to move her life to somewhere in Africa to be with them. (When that plan was on the table.)

For six months each year.

I wouldn't have done it!

No offense to Africa intended, but when you're working for the Royal Family in London, you must be really special to be willing to move continents to continue to support them.

Meghan asked Sara Latham to come on board to work for the Sussex Foundation. There were a lot of snarky comments on Social Media when Sara's appointment was announced because she had worked for the Hillary Cinton campaign. Now apparently she's all that's marvellous and so self sacrificing.

Meghan personally chose her and by all accounts they had an excellent relationship, (as PC Samantha Cohen also had with Harry and Meghan.)

In fact it is a compliment to the Sussexes that Sara wanted to work with them in Africa. That hardly gels with what's coming out from the courtiers now about staff and the Sussexes.