The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June-July 2021

[Heavs]

Meghan's assertion in the interview was that the discussions about Archie's potential skin tone before he was born was the reason that a) he didn't get an HRH title when he was born b) the potential that Charles will change the LPs when he became King.

The first is ridiculous, since he wasn't entitled to it anyway. With B) well, whilst Archie obviously IS 25% African American and has a black grandmother, he looks just as pale as Harry does. If there was worry about how dark he would be surely that would be assuaged? And NOW you might just as well say Charles has a dislike of red heads with just as much evidence taking Diana's alleged "ginger" comment into account.

There's not one shred of actual evidence that Charles or anyone else is so racist that just having a black grandmother is enough to want to not make them HRH and in fact some sources have claimed the opposite, that the family saw the potential as a positive. Not to mention he went out of his way to welcome Doria publicly.

I'm aware this is a very sensitive topic and someone like Archie can suffer from racism and discrimination (and those that made comments and cartoons when he was born were completely wrong) but that's not even what Meghan was originally alleging and then Harry came in an muddled things up further by saying it was a comment from before they were married.

And they've shown the titles are very important to them so much so that Harry seems to have tied himself up in knots to include everything on his daughter's birth certificate so along with all the other factually incorrect statements, it's not surprising if they have muddied this water on purpose to get those titles they care a lot about.

That may be actually a legal issue. The ordinance that currently regulates the Order of the Seraphim says that the order can be awarded to members of Swedish "Royal House". Since Prince Julian is not a member of the Royal House according to the Court, he is not eligible to become a Knight of the Seraphim. His brothers are no longer members of the Royal House either, but they were when they received the order, so they were eligible back then.

Yes it may be a legal issue but that didn't stop a lot of people including me from thinking that CG would find a way to "grandfather" Julian is as it were but so far he hasn't.

 

[Denville]

Right. I know it’s automatic that they get HRH as things stand now.

I just mean that unless the queen does an LP before Charles becomes King, as things are, H KNOWS that his kids will have HRHs. OK its not ideal ot take them away as King Carl Gustaf has done but these thigns happen in royal life..

 

[_Heather_]

I don't know how anything plays into the decision with Archie and Lili because years ago I wasn't hearing anything about Harry's future kids not being HRH/prince/princess despite the slimmed down monarchy talk. So of course the question will be asked in "what changed?" "Why is it starting with them?" It is human nature.

That's true but it's worth noting that there also was no discussion years ago about Harry and whoever his future wife might have been walking away from their roles in the monarchy and making a spectacle of airing every little perceived grievance to the entire world. At that point Harry and his future spouse were expected to be very much a part of the monarchy as full time working royals and their children were expected to be made HRHs when Charles became King because there was a distinct possibility that, at least for a few years, those children might be taking on some work alongside the Cambridge children until George's own children reached adulthood. Let's not forget that Charles was in his mid to late 30s before his children were born and both William and Harry were in their 30s as well when they had children. This means there very much could have been a stretch of time when the children of both William and Harry were carrying the brunt of the royal engagements as William, Catherine, Harry, and his future wife aged.

The fact that Harry and Meghan were going to blow it all up and walk away wasn't in the cards at that point so there's no real reason to have thought there'd be discussion back then about their children not having an HRH.

 

[Claire]

I am really concerned about the speech Harry made for the Diana Awards. For clarity this is the purpose of the award. The Award is the most prestigious accolade a young person aged 9-25 can receive for their social action or humanitarian work. Named after Diana, Princess of Wales, the award was established in 1999 by a board chaired by Gordon Brown.

Why was it necessary for Harry to bring up several of his and his wife's other projects into it. He once again mentions the COVID effects affected ethnic minority disportionately, talk of the vaccine and how it must be made available to everyone. He mentions authority and service several times. Of course this is a charity that offered to keep him as a patron - but this is exactly why other charities voiced their concerns. He cannot compartmentalize his life.

 

[JR76]

Except that, under the succession rules as they existed at the time when George V's LPs were issued, the line of succession in your scenario would have been HRH Prince Louis of Cambridge, Lady Georgiana, and then Lady Charlotte. The change to equal primogeniture is clearly what prompted the 2012 LPs so that, in a hypothetical situation as you have described, Lady Georgiana, as first in line, would be HRH Princess Georgiana of Cambridge instead.





That may be actually a legal issue. The ordinance that currently regulates the Order of the Seraphim says that the order can be awarded to members of Swedish "Royal House". Since Prince Julian is not a member of the Royal House according to the Court, he is not eligible to become a Knight of the Seraphim. His brothers are no longer members of the Royal House either, but they were when they received the order, so they were eligible back then.

It'll be interesting to see what'll happen when/if the System of Orders are changed. If the statues of the Order of the Seraphim are changed to allow for it to be possible to award it to Swedish citizens it would be possible to hand it to Prince Julian. That is if the Government goes along with it since, if my interpretation is right, although the orders will be handed out in the name of the King it'll be upon the suggestion of the Government.

 

[duchessrachel]

Carl Gustav took away the HRH from his grandchildren, some of whom were old enough to realise because he wanted to limit the royal house and tie it in directly with the Head of State and heirs. Prince Julian doesn't have the Order of the Seraphim that his older siblings do because of this.

Isn't it much more likely Charles wants to do the same as almost every other royal house and not for any other reason? Especially since it's been talked about for years.

Then there's the fact that the kids will be raised in California and have been less reason to have the titles than Beatrice and Eugenie did.

Exactly. And I haven't heard Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia complaining about it on television.

 

[Alison H]

I think there was a big change in attitudes in the 1990s, partly because of all the carry-on with Charles and Diana but mainly over financial issues, brought to a head by the row over who was to pay for the repairs to Windsor Castle after the fire. After that, the Queen started paying tax, and there was a lot more talk in general about expense. In 1986, the Yorks had a huge wedding at Westminster Abbey: in 1999, the Wessexes had a much smaller affair at Windsor. I think the idea of "slimming down" the monarchy dates back to then.

Whenever you change something - introducing fees for university, raising the state pension age, to give just two examples which have caused issues in the UK - there will always be certain people who are the first to miss out. Obviously that's rather annoying if it's you, which in Archie and Lili's case it is, but it's got to be someone, and it really isn't personal.

 

[_Heather_]

Whenever you change something - introducing fees for university, raising the state pension age, to give just two examples which have caused issues in the UK - there will always be certain people who are the first to miss out. Obviously that's rather annoying if it's you, which in Archie and Lili's case it is, but it's got to be someone, and it really isn't personal.

This. So, so, so much this. Honestly, I think this is what annoys people the most about Harry and Meghan. As humans we realize that it's always annoying if it's you, or your children, who are the first to be affected by a change but, as you said, it's got to be someone. For some reason, though, Harry and Meghan seem to believe that while it's got to be someone, it doesn't have to be them (or their children). I sincerely believe they'd be 100% fine with a change in LPs, restriction of HRH, etc. that included anyone else at all as long as it doesn't include their family. For example, I absolutely believe that if King Charles decided to issue new LPs restricting the HRH to only those in the direct line meaning George's children while excluding Charlotte and Louis's children, Harry and Meghan would think it was a fabulous idea, have no problems with it, smile and nod, etc. but when exactly the same thing is proposed to begin a generation earlier and therefore with their children, it's a massive problem, it smacks of racism, they need to whine about it on television for the world to see, etc. This isn't, for them, a question of whether or not further restrictions and limitations are needed for the LPs already in place, it's a question of their children being more important than every other child in the family.

 

[Moran]

TI sincerely believe they'd be 100% fine with a change in LPs, restriction of HRH, etc. that included anyone else at all as long as it doesn't include their family. For example, I absolutely believe that if King Charles decided to issue new LPs restricting the HRH to only those in the direct line meaning George's children while excluding Charlotte and Louis's children, Harry and Meghan would think it was a fabulous idea, have no problems with it, smile and nod, etc. but when exactly the same thing is proposed to begin a generation earlier and therefore with their children, it's a massive problem, it smacks of racism, they need to whine about it on television for the world to see, etc.

Do you remember the claims in FF (and perhaps elsewhere, I'm not sure) how disgruntled they were that they had to take a backseat to other members of the family? They didn't say anything about literally every other member of the family except for HM, Prince Philip, Charles and William and their wives taking a backseat to them. They were completely fine with it. They pushed chairs at the Commonwealth Service to literally force Edward and Sophie walk behind them (which, BTW, they would have done anyway, they were already waiting when Harry and Meghan pushed forward).

IMO, they don't mind the system at all. They would have loved the system if it had given them and their children the absolutely top places.

 

[_Heather_]

Do you remember the claims in FF (and perhaps elsewhere, I'm not sure) how disgruntled they were that they had to take a backseat to other members of the family? They didn't say anything about literally every other member of the family except for HM, Prince Philip, Charles and William and their wives taking a backseat to them. They were completely fine with it. They pushed chairs at the Commonwealth Service to literally force Edward and Sophie walk behind them (which, BTW, they would have done anyway, they were already waiting when Harry and Meghan pushed forward).

IMO, they don't mind the system at all. They would have loved the system if it had given them and their children the absolutely top places.

I do. And I realize that I'm not a member of any royal family so my view on this might be different than some but, the HRH won't go any further than Archie and Lili anyway. It's not like the dukedom that can and will be passed on to Archie's son, grandson, etc. I can understand the upset if that were to be limited or stripped or taken. Yes, even though they say the hate everything that the dukedom came from I can still understand, in principle, why that would be a blow for their children, grandchildren, etc. I can see fighting to hang onto the dukedom if it were in peril.

But, the HRH? It won't go any further down the line. Archie and Lili are it and then it's finished for their line because Harry won't be king and therefore Archie and Lili's children will never be the grandchildren of the monarch. They can't stand the family, they hate the monarchy and the system, they wanted to be as far removed as possible from everything to do with the RF and the monarchy (other than money and prestige), but yet they care so much about a title that isn't tied to security or funding or anything else and will expire after their children anyway? It really just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sandy345]

Archie and Lili will have their own lives and dispositions. They may even move back to the UK, their futures are not known. If Lily marries an aristo she could have a title of her own from the marriage.

 

[Denville]

Dond Meghan pushed forward).

IMO, they don't mind the system at all. They would have loved the system if it had given them and their children the absolutely top places.

True -in a way. I will bet that if they had been first son nad his wife, they would have waited till they were Prince and Princess of Wales adn then complained of this and that and said that it was all too stressful, and that they wanted to be the first King and Queen who lived in the US part time...

Archie and Lili will have their own lives and dispositions. They may even move back to the UK, their futures are not known. If Lily marries an aristo she could have a title of her own from the marriage.

I doubt if they'll come back to England, or marry an aristocrat.

 

[Sandy345]

Harry knows he and the children would never get the top places. Same as the "spares" situation of his Uncle Andrew and Great Aunt Margaret. Margaret's children got the Snowdon titles though.

Denville, I would never say never. Life is unpredictable.

 

[_Heather_]

Harry knows he and the children would never get the top places. Same as the "spares" situation of his Uncle Andrew and Great Aunt Margaret. Margaret's children got the Snowdon titles though.

Denville, I would never say never. Life is unpredictable.

Yes, but the Snowdons never got an HRH. The earldom, yes. Just as Archie will inherit the dukedom. So where was the argument going?

 

[TLLK]

Archie and Lili will have their own lives and dispositions. They may even move back to the UK, their futures are not known. If Lily marries an aristo she could have a title of her own from the marriage.

Well Lili like her brother already has a title that she can use from birth as Lady Lili Windsor so she doesn't need to wait to be married. However her parents have opted not to use it. Perhaps when she's eighteen she might decide that she wants to use it.

 

[Sandy345]

Heather, My point is that Harry would not get the "top job" nor would his children be at the "top". They of course could get other titles as you point out.

 

[Denville]

Harry knows he and the children would never get the top places. Same as the "spares" situation of his Uncle Andrew and Great Aunt Margaret. Margaret's children got the Snowdon titles though.

Denville, I would never say never. Life is unpredictable.

i didn't say never. I think they'll be raised as Americans and its highly unlikely they will coem back to the UK to live.

Heather, My point is that Harry would not get the "top job" nor would his children be at the "top". They of course could get other titles as you point out.

But Harry hasn't used thier titles that they have, at present.... so it can't be very important to him....

 

[TLLK]

But Harry hasn't used thier titles that they have, at present.... so it can't be very important to him....

I just find the Sussexes' remarks about titles to be contradictory and at times confusing. On one hand they're seemingly content to not have their children be titled as Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lili Windsor, but then in the interview it seemed as though it is very important.

 

[Denville]

I just find the Sussexes' remarks about titles to be contradictory and at times confusing. On one hand they're seemingly content to not have their children be titled as Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lili Windsor, but then in the interview it seemed as though it is very important.

Its the HRH. Since they've claimed that only by having HRH can Archie have security, that means that by denying him HRH he wont have security...(heartless RF who wont give a baby security).

I suppose you could say that Archie and Lili are the FIRST royal children not even to use the courtesy titles related to their father's peerage if father was entitled to one.

 

[Mbruno]

Harry knows he and the children would never get the top places. Same as the "spares" situation of his Uncle Andrew and Great Aunt Margaret. Margaret's children got the Snowdon titles though.

Denville, I would never say never. Life is unpredictable.

Even if Archie and Lili lose the HRH when Charles is King, which I personally find unlikely, Archie will still inherit the titles of Duke of Sussex, Earl of Dumbarton and Baron Kilkeel if he outlives his father. And Lili will be entitled to the prefix 'Lady' should she decide to use it. So they won't be left "titleless" anyway.

 

[ladyjolene]

Does anyone think they will release a photo of Lili? Or will they get paid by a mag like People and have a pictorial?

 

[Sandy345]

Perhaps a week or two after the statue dedication. I doubt it will be a pictorial. Maybe a family photo of the four of them.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

I just mean that unless the queen does an LP before Charles becomes King, as things are, H KNOWS that his kids will have HRHs. OK its not ideal ot take them away as King Carl Gustaf has done but these thigns happen in royal life..

At this point I can’t imagine Charles taking the HRH away even if he’d planned to before Meghan came along for fear of being labeled racist. So hindsight is everything but if HM had made this clear before ANY of Charles’ grandchildren had been born, we wouldn’t be discussing this at all.

 

[Denville]

At this point I can’t imagine Charles taking the HRH away even if he’d planned to before Meghan came along for fear of being labeled racist. So hindsight is everything but if HM had made this clear before ANY of Charles’ grandchildren had been born, we wouldn’t be discussing this at all.

But that would be bowing to the sort of pressure brought about by Meghan and Harry. If they can't do anything for fear of her criticisms, they would not do anyting at all.....

 

[TLLK]

Does anyone think they will release a photo of Lili? Or will they get paid by a mag like People and have a pictorial?

I expect a solo photo of Lili and a family group shot to be released very soon.?

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

But that would be bowing to the sort of pressure brought about by Meghan and Harry. If they can't do anything for fear of her criticisms, they would not do anyting at all.....

I agree. But is it really such a big deal for two American children to have titles that they won’t use in the US nor will they probably spend much time in the UK? Charles wanted a slimmed down monarchy but wanted Harry and whoever he married to be a part of the slimmed down monarchy. We see how that worked out. Archie and Lili won’t receive funds from taxpayers - so unless I am really missing the big picture here, what difference does it really make? Sure, it wasn’t Charles’ plan but things happen. Better they keep the HRH instead of the PR disaster that an unpopular King Charles would face should he rescind them for his two grandchildren.

 

[Denville]

I agree. But is it really such a big deal for two American children to have titles that they won’t use in the US nor will they probably spend much time in the UK? Charles wanted a slimmed down monarchy but wanted Harry and whoever he married to be a part of the slimmed down monarchy. We see how that worked out. Archie and Lili won’t receive funds from taxpayers - so unless I am really missing the big picture here, what difference does it really make? Sure, it wasn’t Charles’ plan but things happen. Better they keep the HRH instead of the PR disaster that an unpopular King Charles would face should he rescind them for his two grandchildren.

I'd imagine that Charles thought Harry would be Ok with not using the HRHs, in due course.. if he wanted to cut back.. after all he's jolly friendly "Call me Harry." but now we've been told that he and Meghan mind very much...
And it will mean that if he issues new LPs when he becomes King, Williams grand children will be "the first" to lose HRH..
Besides, Meghan and Harry know perfectly well that security is not tied to having HRH.. and that the York sisters who are Princesses, dont have security at all and that Sophie who is the wife of a working royal and a working royal herself, only has it when she is working. They know all that and they chose to say differently. And I think t hat most of us watching the Sussexes in the past year do have a feeling that no matter what they get, they clamour for more...

 

[UglyAmerican]

https://radaronline.com/p/prince-harry-refuses-cooperate-palace-princess-diana-statue-unveiling/

Harry won’t show them his speech and is refusing to take part in meetings or dress rehearsals.

I'm taking all of that with a whole shaker full of salt. Especially the part about rehearsals - how much rehearsing could they be doing via Zoom while he's quarantined? But if it's true that he's refusing to share the contents of his speech, that speech could prove interesting. Or it could just be that he doesn't want it leaked. I guess we'll see.

 

[A-Bik]

If Lily marries an aristo she could have a title of her own from the marriage.

Naah.

Lili will marry a Kennedy.

 

[TLLK]

https://radaronline.com/p/prince-harry-refuses-cooperate-palace-princess-diana-statue-unveiling/



I'm taking all of that with a whole shaker full of salt. Especially the part about rehearsals - how much rehearsing could they be doing via Zoom while he's quarantined? But if it's true that he's refusing to share the contents of his speech, that speech could prove interesting. Or it could just be that he doesn't want it leaked. I guess we'll see.

I agree that Harry can't possibly participate in an in person rehearsal, but I would be surprised if he isn't communicating.