The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June-July 2021

[yukari]

I still think the writing was on the wall about titles at least since the Queen granted HRH/Prince(ss) to all of William's children while Kate was pregnant with George. It would have been easier to extend it to "all of the heir apparent's grandchildren" or something like that rather than specify all of William's children, but she didn't. It was a non-issue at that point because Harry was still single, but I think it reflected a deliberate decision that Harry's future kids wouldn't need (and wouldn't get) all the trappings.

For one, what if Charles predeceased his mother? Archie and Lili would never be grandchildren of monarch, hence they'd have no right for HRH Prince/ss title. Unlike William's children, who will still have the right by being the children of monarch when William ascend the throne. (Even George will still be HRH Prince without new LP).

(...)

If we play the game with the wayback machine where the Queen was pregnant with her first child and Parliament amended The Succession to the Crown act at that time that the firstborn child would be heir apparent regardless of gender, it would be possible that King George VI issued new letters patent to establish that the Queen's firstborn's children would be titled, it would be doing so just in case her first child was Anne instead of Charles as we'd see the same situation of titles of children in the *main line of succession*.

It would be weird if Anne was born first and heir apparent to the Crown but unable to pass on titles because she's in line to be monarch but as a female, can't pass titles through the main line of succession to the Crown.

What the reality boils down to is that not only is Harry the grandson of the monarch, but he's also not in the main line of succession to the Crown. His children will be automatically HRH Prince/ss when Charles becomes king (unless something changes). As he's not in the main line of succession, the LPs issued by the Queen to update titles and styles due to the change in the Act of Succession to the Crown 2013 don't apply to Harry or his family as they're not in the main line of succession.

(...)

Actually I think The Queen's LP is quite similar to George VI's LP when he granted HRH Prince/ss title to the then Princess Elizabeth's children. Just like William's children, her children are in the main line of succession.

Didn't matter if there's change to absolute primogeniture and Anne born first, none of Elizabeth's children would be Prince/ss as according to George V's LP, she's female line. But in any case, when she ascends the throne, her children will automatically be HRH Prince/ss as children of monarch, right?

It wouldn't be different with William's children if George were born as Georgiana. So in a scenario where Charles and William predeceased The Queen, without LP the line of succession would be Lady Georgiana, Lady Charlotte, HRH Prince Louis (and The Duke of Cambridge - and Edinburgh later), HRH Prince Harry, etc. And in the former case, if Elizabeth predeceased her father, the next in line of the succession would be Lord Charles, Lady Anne, HRH The Princess Margaret, HRH The Prince Henry, etc.

 

[yukari]

Here's the article about the allegedly 30 pages report (by Jack Royston of Newsweek, who's not known to have "an axe to grind" towards the Sussexes).
Prince Harry and Meghan Markle Have 30-Page Dossier to Challenge Bullying Claims—Author

(...)

Lacey wrote in the Daily Mail: "We have recently learned the 'human resources' issues—that question of alleged bullying—are still being processed.

"Harry and Meghan, I am told, have drawn up a 30-page dossier in justification of their treatment of staff, setting out precise details of why they parted company with certain personnel.

(...)

Sir Michael Stevens, who as Keeper of the Privy Purse is the queen's most senior financial manager, confirmed last week the result of the review is not expected any time soon.

He told journalists including Newsweek: "I know many of you will want to know if our report contains any information into the review of the 'historic allegations of bullying,' that we announced in March.

"There is nothing on this in the [annual sovereign grant] report and we have nothing to add to our initial statement at this time.

"The review is still progressing and as you would expect it would not be appropriate to comment on something while it is still in progress."

(...)

Is this allegation of ‘30 pages’ even true? And if it is it may very well include some complaints THEY made about staff behaviour at the time to Knauf and to the HR people at KP and the Palace. There is no situation, ever, in which one side is completely blameless and lily white and the other is always evil and power hungry.

And if Lacey is stating that then he has obviously heard from people at KP, who may well have their own particular axe to grind about the Sussexes.

(...)

Why the leak would be from KP?
If the 30 pages report is true, the 30 pages report would be made by Harry's team, whom currently in the US and since the split, Harry no longer has any staff in KP.

The investigation is conducted by 3rd party, not by KP. In any case, I doubt Harry's team and/or the investigation team would share the report to KP. I mean, why they would do that?

So how can KP (whoever they are) know about the alleged 30 pages report?

 

[Erin9]

The thing is, though, that if there are changes made and it affects Archie and Lili, it would be a change that not only affects them but *anyone* in the position that Archie and Lili are in going forward into the future. It's not *specifically* geared to remove titles from the Sussex children only.

If a change is to affect *anyone* in that position going into the future, how can it be deemed racist? It'd affect Charlotte's children and Louis' children and so forth and so on. ?

Exactly. Any change made will impact everyone going forward. It’s not going to only be applicable to Archie and Lili.

 

[Curryong]

Charles won’t have the power when he ascends the throne to issue LPs about events that will/may occur in William’s reign, such as Dukedoms, titles etc for his (William’s) grandchildren, including the offspring of Charlotte and Louis. So Charles’s decision about Archie and Lili might well not impact on William’s children and grandchildren, though it will on Harry’s.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

The thing is, though, that if there are changes made and it affects Archie and Lili, it would be a change that not only affects them but *anyone* in the position that Archie and Lili are in going forward into the future. It's not *specifically* geared to remove titles from the Sussex children only.

If a change is to affect *anyone* in that position going into the future, how can it be deemed racist? It'd affect Charlotte's children and Louis' children and so forth and so on. ?

I'm not disputing that. However, Archie and Lili are the only living people who would be affected by a such change. Therefore it's not correct that they aren't specifically targeted in the sense that it's entirely possible to make such changes without applying them to already living people. And if it indeed was never the plan for Harry's children to be princes and princesses, why not make the changes before he had children to avoid this situation altogether?

Similar to what was written here earlier on Harry's children not being included in the 2013 LP being an indicator of them not being intended a role within the BRF, one can also argue it was an indicator that it wasn't the plan for Harry's children not to be princes and princesses since they didn't also nip that in the bud with aforementioned LP.

I'm not gonna make a judgement as to whether racism is or is not a motivation for allegedly wanting to include Archie and Lili in these changes – nor should anyone else, I think – but I still think it's extremely narrow-minded to categorically deny the possibility of racism being a factor. That's simply not possible to conclude with what little we know.

 

[Osipi]

Charles won’t have the power when he ascends the throne to issue LPs about events that will/may occur in William’s reign, such as Dukedoms, titles etc for his (William’s) grandchildren, including the offspring of Charlotte and Louis. So Charles’s decision about Archie and Lili might well not impact on William’s children and grandchildren, though it will on Harry’s.

As it stands right now, the letters patent that were issued in 1917 by George V are still valid and pertinent to titles and stylings of the royal family and he's been dead and buried since 1936 and there have been three monarchs after him since.

If Charles issues letter patent as king that restricts the HRH prince/ss titles and styles to the main line of succession, that will stay in effect until a future monarch issues letters patent to change things up once again. This would definitely impact the titles and styles of Charlotte and Louis' children in the future as they're not in the main line of succession.

 

[muriel]

I'm not gonna make a judgement as to whether racism is or is not a motivation for allegedly wanting to include Archie and Lili in these changes – nor should anyone else, I think – but I still think it's extremely narrow-minded to categorically deny the possibility of racism being a factor. That's simply not possible to conclude with what little we know.

I am always amused when alleged racism is brought up in the context of Archie and Lily, who are 75% white and only 25% black. They are born in extremely privileged circumstances: great grandchildren of a monarch, and grandchildren and nephew / niece of two successive monarchs, children of a Prince, extremely wealthy and privileged.

It has been no secret that Charles is likely to slim down the BRF when he ascends the throne. Not allowing HRH for non-main line members of the family is a starting point. To suggest that this is because of the 25% "coloured" genepool that Harry's children carry, IMO, is not only preposterous but completely disingeneous.

 

[Alison H]

Maybe it's prejudice against people with red hair - that would also account for why Charles doesn't want Beatrice to be a working royal, although you'd have to find an alternative explanation for Eugenie. Or maybe it's prejudice against people whose birthdays are in May or June. Or maybe it's prejudice against people whose first names begin with the letters A or L. It's not possible to reach a conclusion about any of those things "with what little we know", and there's about as much evidence for any of those things being a factor as there is for racism being a factor - i.e., none.


It's been known for years that Prince Charles didn't want Beatrice or Eugenie to be working royals (there wasn't much he could do about their HRH styles), as part of his plans to "slim down" the monarchy - and there've even been rumours that that's caused ill-feeling between him and Andrew. I assume that no-one's suggesting that that's got anything to do with racism.

 

[muriel]

Maybe it's prejudice against people with red hair - that would also account for why Charles doesn't want Beatrice to be a working royal, although you'd have to find an alternative explanation for Eugenie. Or maybe it's prejudice against people whose birthdays are in May or June. Or maybe it's prejudice against people whose first names begin with the letters A or L. It's not possible to reach a conclusion about any of those things "with what little we know", and there's about as much evidence for any of those things being a factor as there is for racism being a factor - i.e., none.


It's been known for years that Prince Charles didn't want Beatrice or Eugenie to be working royals (there wasn't much he could do about their HRH styles), as part of his plans to "slim down" the monarchy - and there've even been rumours that that's caused ill-feeling between him and Andrew. I assume that no-one's suggesting that that's got anything to do with racism.

Or, irrespective of the truth, it is just the narrative that Meghan wanted to spin, because she thought it would go down well with some of her supporters?

 

[Osipi]

Or, irrespective of the truth, it is just the narrative that Meghan wanted to spin, because she thought it would go down well with some of her supporters?

It sounds like symptoms of something that happens sometimes. It's called the Poor Little Old Me Syndrome known as the PLOMS for short. Doesn't matter if things are true or not, it's a good ploy that people use to paint themselves as a victim for sympathy.

 

[Heavs]

Carl Gustav took away the HRH from his grandchildren, some of whom were old enough to realise because he wanted to limit the royal house and tie it in directly with the Head of State and heirs. Prince Julian doesn't have the Order of the Seraphim that his older siblings do because of this.

Isn't it much more likely Charles wants to do the same as almost every other royal house and not for any other reason? Especially since it's been talked about for years.

Then there's the fact that the kids will be raised in California and have been less reason to have the titles than Beatrice and Eugenie did.

 

[Denville]

Carl Gustav took away the HRH from his grandchildren, some of whom were old enough to realise because he wanted to limit the royal house and tie it in directly with the Head of State and heirs. Prince Julian doesn't have the Order of the Seraphim that his older siblings do because of this.

Isn't it much more likely Charles wants to do the same as almost every other royal house and not for any other reason? Especially since it's been talked about for years.

Then there's the fact that the kids will be raised in California and have been less reason to have the titles than Beatrice and Eugenie did.

In any case, they knew all this ages ago. Why bring it up now? Why is it so important to them? they dont like the Royal life or England or the RF. Why do they want Archie and Lili to have titles when they arein the US, and not likely to ever be part of the RF again.

 

[muriel]

In any case, they knew all this ages ago. Why bring it up now? Why is it so important to them? they dont like the Royal life or England or the RF. Why do they want Archie and Lili to have titles when they arein the US, and not likely to ever be part of the RF again.

The only reason, IMO, was to provide a degree of sensationalism, and to try and spin a reason for why they abdicated their responsibility to crown and country.

Carl Gustav took away the HRH from his grandchildren, some of whom were old enough to realise because he wanted to limit the royal house and tie it in directly with the Head of State and heirs. Prince Julian doesn't have the Order of the Seraphim that his older siblings do because of this.

Isn't it much more likely Charles wants to do the same as almost every other royal house and not for any other reason? Especially since it's been talked about for years.

Then there's the fact that the kids will be raised in California and have been less reason to have the titles than Beatrice and Eugenie did.

Well said!

 

[Denville]

The only reason, IMO, was to provide a degree of sensationalism, and to try and spin a reason for why they abdicated their responsibility to crown and country.

True I suppose I mean... It was always on the cards that the HRH's would be cut back.. and that would affect all children of younger sons. Does Meghan think that Charles is going ot make a special LP saying that her children wont be HRH but that other children who are NOT of mixed race will?
One might have thought that given Meg's left leaning view she would not really approve of hereditary titles anyway..

 

[Lee-Z]

As long as there is no clear statement from P.Charles, sorry King Charles at that point, that he *is* limiting titles and what his reasons are, and reasons for it possibly happening is speculation.
Speculation by the media, social media, the royal fans, the royal anti-fans, and, to me most astoundlingly, by H&M themselves who joined the speculation.

reasons could be various:
- red hair
- birthmonth
- skin color
- nationality/culture of mother (surprised that hardly anyone mentions this, but the real old fashioned grey suits probably have an opinion about that ? )
- parents are too modern/too woke for old fashioned institute
- money (public money to royals always topic of discusdion)
- slimming down monarchy (giving public idea that the royals that remain actually have a clear function)

my reason of preference is 'slimming down monarchy' in combination with 'money'

H&M's reason of preference is skincolor, i think this is for a big part to Meghan's experience in the USA (let's face it, in the USA no one will criticise her for being US american, but i can assure you in other parts of the world that could well happen...but she hasn't experienced that) and imo at least in some part because they know what the effect is in the USA if they promote that reason.

but basically, their speculation is as good as anyone's (yes, it could be racism, yes it could be money) they just happened to choose a big platform in spewing their speculations via Oprah and their elaborate PR machine,
while i only post it on these forums as 'my 2 cts'

 

[Mbruno]

It wouldn't be different with William's children if George were born as Georgiana. So in a scenario where Charles and William predeceased The Queen, without LP the line of succession would be Lady Georgiana, Lady Charlotte, HRH Prince Louis (and The Duke of Cambridge - and Edinburgh later), HRH Prince Harry, etc.

Except that, under the succession rules as they existed at the time when George V's LPs were issued, the line of succession in your scenario would have been HRH Prince Louis of Cambridge, Lady Georgiana, and then Lady Charlotte. The change to equal primogeniture is clearly what prompted the 2012 LPs so that, in a hypothetical situation as you have described, Lady Georgiana, as first in line, would be HRH Princess Georgiana of Cambridge instead.

Carl Gustav took away the HRH from his grandchildren, some of whom were old enough to realise because he wanted to limit the royal house and tie it in directly with the Head of State and heirs. Prince Julian doesn't have the Order of the Seraphim that his older siblings do because of this.

That may be actually a legal issue. The ordinance that currently regulates the Order of the Seraphim says that the order can be awarded to members of Swedish "Royal House". Since Prince Julian is not a member of the Royal House according to the Court, he is not eligible to become a Knight of the Seraphim. His brothers are no longer members of the Royal House either, but they were when they received the order, so they were eligible back then.

 

[valeas]

Charles won’t have the power when he ascends the throne to issue LPs about events that will/may occur in William’s reign, such as Dukedoms, titles etc for his (William’s) grandchildren, including the offspring of Charlotte and Louis. So Charles’s decision about Archie and Lili might well not impact on William’s children and grandchildren, though it will on Harry’s.

That's not correct.

 

[Denville]

As far as I undertstand it, Charles as King can indeed make decision which will impinge on Will's children and grandchildren.... He can give them 3 dukedoms apiece if he wishes..

 

[yukari]

Except that, under the succession rules as they existed at the time when George V's LPs were issued, the line of succession in your scenario would have been HRH Prince Louis of Cambridge, Lady Georgiana, and then Lady Charlotte. The change to equal primogeniture is clearly what prompted the 2012 LPs so that, in a hypothetical situation as you have described, Lady Georgiana, as first in line, would be HRH Princess Georgiana of Cambridge instead.

(...)

Yes, what I meant to say is the reason of issuing LP to grant HRH Prince/ss title.

In George VI's case, he knew that he wouldn't have a son so Elizabeth's children would be next in line after her, hence LP.

And in The Queen's case, there's a change to absolute primogeniture, hence making sure that William's first born has title, because I think if there's no change, she would not issue the LP because in any case, if it's Georgiana, the 3rd in line would be Louis and based on George V's LP, he'd be HRH Prince from birth.

 

[Curryong]

I said ‘William’s grandchildren’ in my post, not children. And every successive monarch can issue LPs at the beginning of their reign with regard to the children of spares, which will be the offspring, in William’s case, of Charlotte and Louis.

 

[Denville]

I said ‘William’s grandchildren’ in my post, not children. And every successive monarch can issue LPs at the beginning of their reign with regard to the children of spares, which will be the offspring, in William’s case, of Charlotte and Louis.

Sorry but Im not clear. The King is the source of all honours so surely he can give titles or HRH's to Willliam's grandchildren, etc as he chooses.. or take away HRH (he cant take away peerages).. but William when he becomes King can do the same...

 

[ACO]

I am always amused when alleged racism is brought up in the context of Archie and Lily, who are 75% white and only 25% black. They are born in extremely privileged circumstances: great grandchildren of a monarch, and grandchildren and nephew / niece of two successive monarchs, children of a Prince, extremely wealthy and privileged.

It has been no secret that Charles is likely to slim down the BRF when he ascends the throne. Not allowing HRH for non-main line members of the family is a starting point. To suggest that this is because of the 25% "coloured" genepool that Harry's children carry, IMO, is not only preposterous but completely disingeneous.

And yet that still didn't stop them both from being racially attacked within hours of their births. It doesn't matter what percentage of black you are to be subjected to racism. So be amused, but I promise many people of color who experience it despite their light skin are not.

I don't know how anything plays into the decision with Archie and Lili because years ago I wasn't hearing anything about Harry's future kids not being HRH/prince/princess despite the slimmed down monarchy talk. So of course the question will be asked in "what changed?" "Why is it starting with them?" It is human nature.

It is what it is at this point. We shall see when that times comes.

 

[muriel]

And yet that still didn't stop them both from being racially attacked within hours of their births.

The BRF bears no responsibility whatsoever for some irresponsible person on social media making a racist comment.

 

[yukari]

I said ‘William’s grandchildren’ in my post, not children. And every successive monarch can issue LPs at the beginning of their reign with regard to the children of spares, which will be the offspring, in William’s case, of Charlotte and Louis.

I'm sorry, but if George V's LP can affect Anne's children (Anne is his great-granddaughter and rule of no HRH for female line still applies to her), why Charles's LP can't affect William's grandchildren (who in this case, Charles' great-grandchildren)?

 

[ACO]

The BRF is no responsible for some irresponsible person on social media making a racist comment.

I didn't say they were. I was responding to your comment stating that because they are 25% black it is amusing to suggest they can be subjected to racism.

It quite offensive and frankly just highlights a lot of what people of colour experience. And in both those incidents the people were public figures with large platforms. They weren't random anonymous trolls.

So lets not pretend here.

 

[muriel]

I didn't say they were. I was responding to your comment stating that because they are 25% black it is amusing to suggest they can be subjected to racism.

To clarify, I was referring to the suggestion of racism by the Duke and Duchess of Sussex on the part of the BRF against Archie, which manifested itself in them being informed that Archie was unlikely to get the HRH title in the next reign.

 

[Denville]

To clarify, I was referring to the suggestion of racism by the Duke and Duchess of Sussex on the part of the BRF against Archie, which manifested itself in them being informed that Archie was unlikely to get the HRH title in the next reign.

But According to Harry, their being HIS children and members of the RF didn't stop another member of hte RF from making insensitive remarks about the possilbe colour of Archie's skin...

 

[Erin9]

The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June 2021-

I don't know how anything plays into the decision with Archie and Lili because years ago I wasn't hearing anything about Harry's future kids not being HRH/prince/princess despite the slimmed down monarchy talk. So of course the question will be asked in "what changed?" "Why is it starting with them?" It is human nature.

It is what it is at this point. We shall see when that times comes.

I thought it was pretty obvious what was coming when Beatrice and Eugenie didn’t become working royals. They used HRH at birth, but by the time they got older, did not become part of the firm. They are grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 1.

And Louise and James have never even used the HRH they are entitled to. They were born much later than the girls. Also grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 2.

The only grandchildren of the monarch who seemed earmarked to work for the firm were William and Harry- the sons of the heir.

The Queen obviously hasn’t wanted to issue Letters Patent on the subject, but the writing has been on the wall.

I don’t really see anything “starting” with Archie and Lili IF Charles issues LP. Only putting on paper and formalizing what’s seemed pretty obvious for many years.

At this point, Harry’s children using HRH and being working royals would actually go against what we’ve been seeing.

 

[Denville]

I thought it was pretty obvious what was coming when Beatrice and Eugenie didn’t become working royals. They got HRH at birth, but by the time they got older, did not become part of the firm. They are grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 1.

And Louise and James have never even used the HRH they are entitled to. They were born much later than the girls. Also grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 2.

The only grandchildren of the monarch who seemed earmarked to work for the firm were William and Harry- the sons of the heir.

The Queen obviously hasn’t wanted to issue Letters Patent on the subject, but the writing has been on the wall.

I don’t really see anything “starting” with Archie and Lili IF Charles issues LP. Only putting on paper and formalizing what’s seemed pretty obvious for many years.

At this point, Harry’s children using HRH and being working royals would actually go against what we’ve been seeing.

they will GET HRHs when Charles become king.. but either they can make a choice not to use them.. or Charles can deprive them of them.

 

[Erin9]

they will GET HRHs when Charles become king.. but either they can make a choice not to use them.. or Charles can deprive them of them.

Right. I know it’s automatic that they get HRH as things stand now.