The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June-July 2021

[Moran]

The monarchy cannot be respected if it's allowed to be treated like a playground for two people, no matter what. And I really think that lately, Harry and Meghan had been detrimental to it. The so much disputed Earl of Dumbarton title was another thing that they handled wrong, IMO. They should have said that they never had the considerations ascribed to them, aka Archie being teased. They should have said that they respected Scotland and the title. But they didn't. They just declined to comment.

For two people who went on TV to "correct" the three-year-old matter of who made who cry, that's a rather meaningful gesture. They didn't even bother to send a friend to say it wasn't true. If they adhered to the KS's rule of never denying anything, they would have been fine. But they had kicked up a fuss over this very politics, so now if they don't deny it, it must be true, surely?

The Scots are not happy campers but do Harry and Meghan care?

I don't think they're fit for being faces of a constitutional monarchy anymore, in any capacity. Harry's birth is not this special as to get him in the clean for disrespecting the people and get Meghan in the clean from the accusations of bullying staff. We'll see if Jason Knauf wrote such a letter but surely the very fact that there is an investigation isn't a problem caused by the press. Why should people be kept in the dark?

 

[Denville]

The monarchy cannot be respected if it's allowed to be treated like a playground for two people, no matter what. And I really think that lately, Harry and Meghan had been detrimental to i should people be kept in the dark?

How can the monarchy be respected when someone comes out and says he didn't want to work for it (tho' he's still using the titles from it) or that she got married 3 days before the official wedding - just because? Or that a member of the RF had made a racist remark but not saying who it was?

 

[Moran]

How can the monarchy be respected when someone comes out and says he didn't want to work for it (tho' he's still using the titles from it) or that she got married 3 days before the official wedding - just because? Or that a member of the RF had made a racist remark but not saying who it was?

It can't. I don't get the logic of "HM is a puppet in her handlers' hands and that's terrible!" to "The whole KS should become an army of puppets in Harry and Meghan's hands no matter what they do" which Lacey promotes.

It's 21th century. We're talking about a country with constitutional monarchy. The idea that the members of the RF should be absolved when behaving disrespectfully to the very core of the monarchy is so beyond me.

In fact, even when the monarchy wasn't constitutional, princes were rarely allowed to live out the life of rebels against it while using its resources. That's it, they were sometimes not allowed to live at all. We're more civilized now but the instruments are there. They're just different.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

No one has taken anything away from Harry, he still legally has HRH in the UK and most likely always will. We are simply suggesting there was another way of writing his own name (with or without Prince, Duke, HRH) that wasn't quite so silly as only writing "Duke of Sussex HRH" in the US of all places which doesn't recognise titles, styles and fought a war not to against the UK specifically.

I think the constitutional Monarchy is important but I don't believe the specialness of royal blood specifically.

Harry has endangered the monarchy by making a lot of what have been moved to be false or exaggerated accusations on TV which could theoretically bolster calls for a republic in the future if the Firm and/or members of it is deemed to be racist (among many other things) in a multicultural society. Something many members of his family were working hard to show connections with whilst he was getting into slur scandals etc. I believe that's more of a potential danger than any specific titles Harry may or may not use. More to the point he left and in a way guaranteed to make a huge fuss, so it's not surprising his family and the country have mixed feelings about him right now.

The media have always written against blood members of the family, and sometimes written glowing things about them as well. No one in the public eye is ever going to have 100% adoring press 100% of the time, even HM.

Didn’t he agree not to use his HRH?

 

[Denville]

Didn’t he agree not to use his HRH?

He is not allowed to use it in business dealings.. but I think he can use it if he wishes in social settings. However, it seems an odd thing to do living in a republic to insist on one's "Royal highness" when he can use his name and surname.

 

[Heavs]

Didn’t he agree not to use his HRH?

They both agreed not to use HRH for their commercial/political ventures in the US and anywhere else but they still have them legally speaking in the UK.

It just seems odd to insist on that and DOS with no personal names on a US birth certificate.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

Except they're in the US. Where titles are not recognized for legal purposes, no matter how much Harry insists. Not to mention, it looks pretentious and desperate, not to mention HRH is neither a title nor a name.

Thank you, Prinsara. We had a pretty famous war to get rid of the British Crown. From the History Channel:

The Revolutionary War (1775-83), also known as the American Revolution, arose from growing tensions between residents of Great Britain’s 13 North American colonies and the colonial government, which represented the British crown. Skirmishes between British troops and colonial militiamen in Lexington and Concord in April 1775 kicked off the armed conflict, and by the following summer, the rebels were waging a full-scale war for their independence.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/american-revolution-history

 

[Alison H]

In fact, even when the monarchy wasn't constitutional, princes were rarely allowed to live out the life of rebels against it while using its resources. That's it, they were sometimes not allowed to live at all. We're more civilized now but the instruments are there. They're just different.

Excellent point.

George of Clarence (brother of two kings ) - executed for treason, thought to have been drowned in a butt of malmsey wine as an interesting alternative to having his head chopped off

His cousin, Lady Margaret Pole - executed by Henry VIII

Richard II, anointed king - almost certainly murdered on the orders of Henry IV

Edward V and his brother Richard - probably murdered on the orders of Richard III

Arthur of Brittany, nephew and heir of Richard I - probably murdered on the orders of King John

Just a few examples, and those are just in England - try 18th century Russia!

If being a prince of the blood is the issue, Harry can't really moan too much about being criticised by the press ?.

 

[Prinsara]

It's just sad. Their baby's name has to tie them to the Crown. Their baby's birth certificate has to tie them to the Crown. They're clearly so afraid of becoming irrelevant if they stop (or use Harry's real names like a normal person). None of it seems to signal anything healthy or propitious, not to mention they're using their daughter as a prop in all this.

 

[victor1319]

Given Name not Given Title

I don't want to interrupt the discussion, but flowers... from a German Speakers standpoint this "Duke of Sussex" = Given Name is easy to understand: Prince Harry thought, it meant the Title given to him.

I don't know honestly, how it is in real English, but in my Basic English there are Surname or Family Name and First Name.

Perhaps this offers an explanation, what Harry did here...

Still: it is funny as hell! Because to make this mistake, Prince Harry has to have thought, the runaway colonies still have rules for nobility ranks... ?

 

[Sandy345]

Especially George. I remember when the Obamas came to visit, little George pipes up "Why is Uncle Harry being so quiet?". I think Harry genuinely loved to get down and play with the kids and have a rip roaring good time and George remembers that.

Harry has his own children to play with and have a rip roaring good time with now. He has his own family now. Maybe the two families will meet again...some day. Harry had talked about wanting to be a husband and father for years. And maybe when the Cambridge children get older they can meet their cousins on a regular basis.

 

[Denville]

I don't want to interrupt the discussion, but flowers... from a German Speakers standpoint this "Duke of Sussex" = Given Name is easy to understand: Prince Harry thought, it meant the Title given to him.

I don't know honestly, how it is in real English, but in my Basic English there are Surname or Family Name and First Name.

Perhaps this offers an explanation, what Harry did here...

Still: it is funny as hell! Because to make this mistake, Prince Harry has to have thought, the runaway colonies still have rules for nobility ranks... ?

So Harry thinks that the Americans have titles as part of their names, as German nobles do?

 

[Somebody]

So Harry thinks that the Americans have titles as part of their names, as German nobles do?

And Duke of Sussex is comparable to 'Rachel'... Because they did know how to fill it out for Meghan.

That was not the essence of my argument, though. I was pointing out that the parts that the poster disagreed with weren't written by actual Daily Mail writers but Lacey.

BTW, by the same tabloid publications I found it very pro-Sussex and laying all the responsibility for a future reconciliation on William, with clearly outlined obligations and a very faint "Harry was ready to recognize that he made some mistakes" for his brother. To me, his sympathies lie clearly with the Sussexes and reconciliation means - give them all that they want and you won't be called racist.

That part is extremely problematic. Meghan is requesting positive discrimination when the situation doesn't call for it. If she wouldn't be biracial there would have been no reason to construct for example a 2+ decades discussion on how to move on with royal titles in the future or not providing separate security for a great-grandchild as racist; but now she is using it as a weapon to try to get whatever she wants because she knows fully well that any hint of racism is unacceptable and can be used in her advantage. I don't think she is doing solving the real issues with racism any favors.

N.B. I am not saying that she didn't experience racism by some (social) media but that not every decision that goes against her wishes is racism.

 

[victor1319]

So Harry thinks that the Americans have titles as part of their names, as German nobles do?

That would be excusable! I think, he thinks, that a given name equals/means given title and not First Name.

But now I stop my attempts here - I am afraid they will cause even more confusion... Sorry!

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

(...)I don't think she is doing solving the real issues with racism any favors.

Not sure a bunch of strangers on the internet with no real insight as to what's gone on behind the scenes get to define what "the real issues with racism" are and that Meghan and/or her children haven't experienced that.

 

[Prinsara]

For the record, the form says "Name of Parent - First" and "Last - Birth Name".

Clear to most people who are not being convoluted or Lili's parents.

 

[Somebody]

That would be excusable! I think, he thinks, that a given name equals/ means given title and not First Name.

But now I stop my attempts here - I am afraid they will cause even more confusion... Sorry!

I think you are making up excuses that paint Harry in a really bad light; as if he wasn't smart enough to figure this out.

Of course he knew perfectly well that 'Name of parent - first' means that he has to put his first name (as for Meghan it was 'Rachel'), he also understands middle name (for Meghan that is Meghan; which he omitted while he has 3 of them) and last (birth) name was 'Markle' for Meghan, so that would be 'Mountbatten-Windsor' for him; or if he was really particularly about it he could use 'The Duke of Sussex' as most British peers would do for British documents (most likely not for foreign; see for example William using 'Mountbatten-Windsor' in the past) - although he only got that title later (not from birth but 3 years ago), while Mountbatten-Windsor was always at his disposal.

 

[Erin9]

The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June 2021-

And Duke of Sussex is comparable to 'Rachel'... Because they did know how to fill it out for Meghan.

That was what really threw me. Meghan’s name on the certificate was straight up her birth name. All of it. It was her full legal name at birth. Rachel Meghan Markle. Which makes sense.

The Duke of Sussex is a title granted at their marriage.

There was no consistency that I can see in filling this out.

Who fills out a birth certificate and no where on there is any one of the 4 names they were given at birth? Instead it’s only: the title granted on getting married and the style automatically possessed at birth. I just don’t get it.

 

[Sandy345]

Harry's "Real name" is of course Henry.

 

[Erin9]

The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June 2021-

Harry's "Real name" is of course Henry.

Indeed. Which is what I would have expected to see on a birth certificate. Much like how the first name was Rachel on the certificate because that is Meghan’s legal first name.

 

[Osipi]

Just an odd thought that came to me from left field in a galaxy far, far away. How possible is it that the intent of how Harry defined himself on Lili's birth certificate has to do with the reasoning behind it that Lili will have dual citizenship in both the US and the UK?

Harry's moniker pertains to the UK whereas Meghan's pertains to the US.

 

[Denville]

Just an odd thought that came to me from left field in a galaxy far, far away. How possible is it that the intent of how Harry defined himself on Lili's birth certificate has to do with the reasoning behind it that Lili will have dual citizenship in both the US and the UK?

Harry's moniker pertains to the UK whereas Meghan's pertains to the US.

I doubt it. Their children will have dual citizenship because they are born to an American mother and an English father. It has nothing to do with how Harry defines himself on the birth cert. I think its possible that this information is from info that Harry gave to the hospital when Lili was born.. because he called himself HRH the Duke of Sussex (for fear that someone would take him for an ordinary bloke).... and the clerk passed on the info, not being very clear on it....
Harry MAY find that the authorities are not happy with such a bizarre "father's name" and may ask for it to be clarified and changed.. but for the moment I guess the Sussexes are standing by it.

 

[Heavs]

Just an odd thought that came to me from left field in a galaxy far, far away. How possible is it that the intent of how Harry defined himself on Lili's birth certificate has to do with the reasoning behind it that Lili will have dual citizenship in both the US and the UK?

Harry's moniker pertains to the UK whereas Meghan's pertains to the US.

But His Royal Highness isn't in any way his legal surname in the UK. Whereas Mountbatten-Windsor can explicitly be used by members who have titles when a surname is required. Or if he really wanted he could have used Of Wales with a notation somewhere.

Or he could have filled it in

First Name: Henry
Middle Names: Charles Albert David
Last Name at Birth: HRH Prince

And that would have made slightly more sense for both UK and US purposes (leaving aside that the US doesn't recognise titles).

Does he not feel trapped by the toxicity of being defined by THE INSTITUTION and not even able to put his personal name on his own daughter's birth certificate? Does he realise he's still being guided by the genetic pain of his past that he's now inflicting on his daughter? I jest but considering what he's been saying the last few weeks....

 

[Marengo]

It would be appreciated if posters could stop throwing sarcastic insults around. Otherwise we will have no other option than to close this thread -and all other Sussex-related threads- yet again.

 

[Alison H]

Surely, whatever anyone's views on the appropriate use of styles or titles, Harry's first name is "Henry", and his middle names are "Charles Albert David". If he was that desperate to have HRH on the birth certificate, then he should have put "HRH Prince Henry" in the first name box, and his middle names in the middle name box.


I can't see how anyone could possibly define "the Duke of Sussex" as being a first name.


Why does everything with these two have to be such a ridiculous palaver? I hope the birth certificate's actually legal without his actual name on it, and doesn't cause Lili any problems when she needs it for ID in the future!

 

[kyle]

I have not read ahead, but has anyone mentioned that a form that was supposed to be last name first was filled out in a strange way by accident?

His Royal Highness, Duke of Sussex was taken as first name "Duke of Sussex" and last name "His Royal Highness". I read a Sussex spokesperson had said that it was his legal name.

 

[TLLK]

I have not read ahead, but has anyone mentioned that a form that was supposed to be last name first was filled out in a strange way by accident?

His Royal Highness, Duke of Sussex was taken as first name "Duke of Sussex" and last name "His Royal Highness". I read a Sussex spokesperson had said that it was his legal name.

kyle-I initially thought that was the case, but upon reading the article and recalling when I completed my children's California birth certificates, I learned that the form is First Name, Middle Name and then Last Name for the father. It appears that this is how the couple wished to put the information.

 

[kyle]

Maybe it became his "legal name" on some other form.
I would think a legal name in the U.S. would have to be established. Could it be from immigration papers?

 

[Alisa]

They're both vaccinated so couldn't they see each other?

 

[TLLK]

They're both vaccinated so couldn't they see each other?

Has Prince Harry shared the news that he was vaccinated?