The Duke and Duchess of Sussex to Step Back as Senior Royals: January 2020

[Lumutqueen]

Harry gets £2million from the Duchy of cornwall and has been given the job as Commonwealth prince.

Where does the £2mill come from and he definitely has not been “given” the “job” as commonwealth Prince, certainly not by my definition anyway.

 

[Denville]

Re slimmed down monarchy, Lumutqueen has been banging her head against a brick wall on this one with absolutely no effect, alas. There is NO public record of Prince Charles ever saying such a thing.

Natural wastage will slim the monarchy in the coming years; the Queen and Prince Philip are not immortal, again alas.

The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra are in their 80s . Andrew is out for the foreseeable future.

When Charles becomes King I can't for a moment see him kicking Anne, Sophie and Edward and the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester to the kerb, after the sterling work they've done and are doing. The Cambridges and Harry and Meghan would have been the future , till the Cambridge children are old enough , whether that's just George or all 3.

The UK has a population of almost 70 million. 4 working royals - Charles, Camilla, William and Kate or even 6 with Harry and Meghan would massively cut down the more than 3000 public engagements that the family did last year.

Charles may not have said it explicitly but it is plain that there will be a slimmed down monarchy. The older ones will retire and their children will not be taking their place.
That wil be a slimmed down monarchy when it IS down to chalres, Camila, and (as it was meant to be) the 2 sons. The older ones like Anne, the Kents etc will be retiring as time goes by..and wont be replaced. But it DID depend to an extent on Harry and his wife being part of the working crew and doing their job. THEY are the ones who are refusing to paly their part and wanting to be part time at it. So, Charles will have to cut back on engagements, or take on some of the cousins/nephews.. and I don't really see the latter happening..

 

[Pranter]

I don't know how many times I've said here in this group on whatever threads that they will need Meghan and Harry at least another 20 to 30 years. I think almost everytime it's come up ppl here have said The Sussexes are not important and won't be needed etc. Now ppl are saying there is no way The Sussexes were told they weren't going to be part of a slimmed down monarchy.

Wish ya'll would make up your minds.



LaRae

 

[ACO]

B) Family support...here is where it gets more confusing to me..I saw Meghan being walked down the aisle (happily, i have heard and read) by the PoW himself. I saw HMQ making exceptions to accommodate her before the wedding with the invitation to Sandringham. There was also the unforgettable photo of HMQ and the DoE after Archie was born. But i continue to read allegations that she did not feel truly supported in her husband's family, and in the words of Meghan herself no one asked if she was okay...

Outside appearances doesn't really mean all is well behind closed doors. I mean the most obvious is when someone comes forward about an abusive spouse and their loved ones are shocked because "all seemed so well."

Not that I am claiming anything of the sort. Just making a point that nice PR friendly appearances benefited them all. I do think there was support but their could have been plenty non support as well. No one has any idea what truly went on behind the scenes except them.

 

[Denville]

I don't know how many times I've said here in this group on whatever threads that they will need Meghan and Harry at least another 20 to 30 years. I think almost everytime it's come up ppl here have said The Sussexes are not important and won't be needed etc. Now ppl are saying there is no way The Sussexes were told they weren't going to be part of a slimmed down monarchy.

Wish ya'll would make up your minds.



LaRae

I've never said that they are not needed. It was always clear that Charles was working towards the RF being him, his wife, and his heir and Kate, supported by Harry and HIs wife..adn the oter Royals who have been part of the show would retire as they grew older. None of them are being replaced by their children who have tehir own private lives. But if Charles cannot get H and Meg to play their part, he will have to cut back further. they may be "needed" technically but they are too unrelaiable.

 

[Pranter]

I've never said that they are not needed. It was always clear that Charles was working towards the RF being him, his wife, and his heir and Kate, supported by Harry and HIs wife..adn the oter Royals who have been part of the show would retire as they grew older. None of them are being replaced by their children who have tehir own private lives. But if Charles cannot get H and Meg to play their part, he will have to cut back further. they may be "needed" technically but they are too unrelaiable.

I wasn't meaning you specifically...I don't even remember all the names. My point was ppl keep flipping back and forth.

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.



LaRae

 

[wyevale]

Even if the Prince of Wales can [miraculously] persuade this couple to stay within the 'command structure' of the BRF, will the Public overlook/forget and ever trust the Sussexes again ?
One thing that Brexit has taught us, is that people now take entrenched positions very quickly, and are not inclined to change their position [or mind], on a subject once they have formed a view.

The perception of them as 'loose Cannon' is likely to persist for years, and their perceived disloyalty remain a source of acrimony for a long time.

 

[hel]

As far as I can tell immigration is not even on the table. This is what you want not what they want. The fact that they want to split their time between the UK and North America doesn't mean they will immigrate. Why is this even a discussion?

Because you cannot just come and live in Canada for part of the year without an immigrant visa, as has been explained more than once.

If you want to be in Canada, there are three status options: visitor, refugee, and immigrant. (I'll get to the diplomatic thing later.)

Visitors are specifically enjoined from effectively living here. If you rock up at the border with all your stuff and your cat packed in the back and appear to have rented an apartment, they will deny you entry. If you show up at the border with just a backpack but the computer shows that you've spent a suspicious amount of time in Canada in the last year, they will question you very closely about whether you're actually living in the country. If it is true that Meghan showed up without a return ticket, as has been reported, then the rules have already been bent for them.

Immigrants must fit into one of several established categories. I've posted a link. Most of them are job-based. The person who pointed out that Harry is a trained helicopter pilot is correct -- that actually is one of the occupations within the Skilled Worker program, HOWEVER, Harry could only get that if he was actually working as a helicopter pilot. And the only place he'd be able to do that is in the oil field. I assure you that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex are not going to be settling in Fort Mac. Whether he'd be able to earn enough points is an open question since he hasn't been part of the Army Air Corps since 2013 and they'd likely have to stretch the definition of "recent skilled work experience" to give him any points in that category at all.

As for the diplomatic visa option, the guidance suggests "a senior official of a foreign government, travelling on a diplomatic passport, should not be issued a diplomatic visa if the individual intends to enter Canada for commercial negotiations with private enterprises, or on a private visit. " Which means, again, they'd have to bend the rules.

In short, there is no way that allowing the Sussexes into Canada to kinda-sorta live here much of the time can be accomplished without bending the rules. So why does that matter?

We are currently a country that 1) is dependent on skilled immigration and 2) operates some of the most liberal refugee programs in the world (for instance, we're about the only place where we have a program set up to allow private citizens to sponsor refugee families).

However, we're also a country with a rather tense balance between conservatives and liberals, as can be seen in our last election. Immigration policy is one of the areas of a split in opinion. We need immigrants, but in order to maintain a robust immigration program, it must be seen to be fair and working in good order.

Breaking the rules, in a very public way that screams "not fair, not working in good order", to satisfy the whims of an incredibly privileged pair who could easily just go to the US without breaking the rules just doesn't sit well with me, I'm sorry. And, honestly, I'd rather have a few more doctors.

 

[Pranter]

I don't think it likely at all they will stay full time. Maybe if things had come to a head a year ago (and who knows how long this has been being talked about) there would of been a better chance.

This is not a new idea for Harry...he's been looking at opting out for years.


LaRae

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Re Wyevale’s post #1329-I think this has merit. Loose cannon is a good description.
Harry & Meghan have done themselves no favors. The people who have always held a negative view feel justified. Many of those that were neutral or casual fans have soured on them. Their super fans are the only ones still wholeheartedly supporting the Sussexes.

 

[Betsypaige]

This is the first time I'm addressing that statement made and perhaps I'm the odd one out but I actually took it to mean that the person doing the interview was the first person of the *media* to ask if she was OK. I didn't see it as a statement that no one in her private life of friends and family has asked that. If that was true, it would also denote that none of her close friends never asked her either. Its why I took it to mean that it was the media and the gobs of reporters yelling questions for the "scoop" that never cared to ask. I do believe that statement was taken way out of context and used by the media in a negative way. But that's just me.

I would never expect the media to ask if I were ok, honestly, and if that’s what Meghan meant, I think she was off-base. However, I really think she meant that generally speaking no one has asked her - maybe she meant the general public? I find it impossible to believe she’d be referring to the BRF, specifically the Queen and Prince Charles. Even if that’s not their way, they certainly support her ...

 

[TLLK]

Even if the Prince of Wales can [miraculously] persuade this couple to stay within the 'command structure' of the BRF, will the Public overlook/forget and ever trust the Sussexes again ?
One thing that Brexit has taught us, is that people now take entrenched positions very quickly, and are not inclined to change their position [or mind], on a subject once they have formed a view.

The perception of them as 'loose Cannon' is likely to persist for years, and their perceived disloyalty remain a source of acrimony for a long time.

Unfortunately this image of the Sussexes' behavior over the last nine months is likely to color the public's perception of them for a long time.

 

[Betsypaige]

but how could this work? surely harry understands that monetising his title/the monarchy is a big no. how could this even have crossed their minds? how could they monetise 'their brand' in a way that would protect/not harm the monarchy?

I don’t know - I was being somewhat facetious in my comments, though I believe there’s some truth to that. I don’t like the idea that they have a “brand” - the brand is the BRF. If they want their own brand, they should not be allowed to use their titles or even part of it - keep Sussex out of it and make them create their OWN brand based on who they are as people. Let’s see how that works out.

 

[tommy100]

I agree about the "loose cannon" element, I mean with the best will in the world would the Household and indeed the UK government really agree to send them on anymore overseas tours for example. The last one was hardly a success by the end and the possibility of them going "off script" is just too much I would imagine.

 

[Florestane]

I wasn't meaning you specifically...I don't even remember all the names. My point was ppl keep flipping back and forth.

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.



LaRae

Isn't the flipping back and forth just different people with different opinions?

 

[Betsypaige]

I, too, agree with the “loose cannon” element. Remember that Africa interview when they talked about having problems (whatever the wording was) while an entire continent struggles to find enough to eat.

I don’t think H and M realize how spoiled and entitled they come across now - and no, they aren’t trustworthy. I’m sorry to say that I don’t see them being a real support to Charles when he is King - and he’ll need that support. William will be there, and Anne to a point, but I’m also referring to emotional support. He’ll need both of his sons around him.

 

[ACO]

Re Wyevale’s post #1329-I think this has merit. Loose cannon is a good description.
Harry & Meghan have done themselves no favors. The people who have always held a negative view feel justified. Many of those that were neutral have soured on them. Their super fans are the only ones still wholeheartedly supporting the Sussexes.

Quite honestly we have no idea how people overall are feeling. Just a quick glance across social media, print media, TV, and the like and there is a very wide spread POV of them. I wouldn't make such bold claims either way.

We have no idea how any of this will shape out or what has happened. We do know that opinions can shift quick with new information. So lets see how it plays out. Personally I agree with those who think the BRF want to find a suitable compromise for the Sussexes to keep them in the fold. I suspect they feel it is wiser to have them "in" rather than "out."

 

[Pranter]

Isn't the flipping back and forth just different people with different opinions?

Not when it's the same person.



LaRae

 

[Somebody]

As a Dutch I have been viewing it all with open mouth. All that hullabaloo. That senior royals want to pursue an own career is actually the norm over here, as the Dutch State only supports the King, the future King and the former King (and their eventual spouses).

Very few people are against them changing their direction in life although some wonder why they didn't express that desire 2 years ago. What people do worry about is them pursuing a career that looks very much like being 'private royals'.

I do not know how it is in the UK, but in my country ANY citizen with a risk profile, rich or poor, prince or pauper, a celebrity or a nobody, is provided personal security by the police.

I would expect that as long as there is a perceived threat they will indeed receive security. However, especially if they have no public function that might include severly limiting how they go about their lives and living in a different country unless agreed upon by all relevant parties is most likely not feasible if you still expect the British police to take care of your security.

A Dutch newspaper worded it as: the British monarchy 2.0 is very much alike the Dutch monarchy now. The King's two brothers (back then the Number 2 and the Number 3 in the succession) fully aimed for a succesful career outside the Royal House. They had to provide in their own living as any Dutch has to do.

For the occasional representation and formal outings there is a reimbursement by the Royal House. And like Queen Juliana did for her three youngest daughters, also Queen Beatrix created a special Trust (Foundation Functional Costs of the House Orange-Nassau II) to support her two youngest sons "in their execution of the royal dignity".

Read: maybe both princes and their families have to go to a private function like a royal wedding somewhere in Germany and need transport, accommodation, personnel, a garderobe, gifts, etc. These private costs (when it are no State events) are met by this Trust.

This is a situation already existing for 50 years. It is mind-boggling that Harry and Meghan are treated alike traitors of the Queen. In fact they finally brought the monarchy from 1952 to 2020. Pfffff. Come oooooooon....

It's very different when things like these are clear from the start and are executed in close cooperation with all involved - although I am sure there are still limits on what Constantijn & Laurentien can do in terms of career; even the Van Vollenhoven princes are expected to at least consider the impact of their actions on the royal family. Bernhard receives quite some criticism but I am pretty sure the royal family would not agree if he expected to be allowed to call the race circuit in Zandvoort 'The Van Oranje-Nassau Royal racing circuit' as he would be mixing business and his royal role.

In this case, they are just telling the BRF by publishing a website what their demands are, which includes complete freedom to pursue their own commercial interests AND free housing AND security AND occasional royal duties, including worldwide tours for the British government. So, imho not comparable to the Dutch situation at all.

 

[wyevale]

the "loose cannon" element

I think her leaving the country, and him remaining here ALONE to cope with 'the fallout' is a particularly bad look, and one that is every bit as unfortunate for 'trust' as the perceived 'kick in the teeth' delivered to HMQ, the PoW & the DoC, when they went public [with TEN minutes notice] with their 'plan' the other day..

None of it speaks of rationality, let alone the 'unity of purpose' expected of married couples.

 

[Denville]

I wasn't meaning you specifically...I don't even remember all the names. My point was ppl keep flipping back and forth.

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.



LaRae

Or Different people have different ideas as to whether they are considered necessary or not. I thought that they were supposed to be backin the UK and going back to work.. instead, it seems as if they have left Arch in Canada and possibly Meg has gone back to be with him, while Harry discusses with his father...

 

[camelot23ca]

I wasn't meaning you specifically...I don't even remember all the names. My point was ppl keep flipping back and forth.

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.



LaRae

They’re important in the sense that it would be great to have them around, happy in their roles as supporting players to Harry’s grandmother, then his father and then his brother. Basically like Princess Anne - a hard worker who plays by the rules does what she’s asked and no more, and checks her ego at the door.
They will become less important as time goes on, and also in the sense that the BRF can get along fine without them if need be. Charles will be a workhorse until he dies. William and Catherine have been steadily becoming more prominent for several years now. Anne, Edward and Sophie have enough sense of duty that they’ll continue working, and possibly take even more on, if it’s needed and if they’re asked. Beatrice and Eugenie seem like good spirited and steady women who I think would be able to shake off any negative opinions people may have of them due to their parents if they started with small engagements and worked up. William’s children are already being appropriately exposed to royal life and should be active participants by the time they’re teenagers. Likely they won’t have the luxury of being private citizens until their mid 20s like their father and uncle had, and will be quite capable of balancing part time royal work with their university studies. All that is better than having Harry and Meghan stay around but be the source of new drama and friction every few months.

And in terms of Harry and Meghan being reliable, you’ve got to be joking. Harry talking about his relationship with his brother and Meghan talking about her seemingly never ending struggles just as William was going on an important foreign visit? Informing everyone they were taking what basically amounted to six weeks of stress leave and using that time to come up with and release a plan for them to step back that included no input from the BRF? Releasing the statement without informing his father or his grandmother and sovereign first? How is any of that reliable?

 

[Somebody]

Where does the £2mill come from and he definitely has not been “given” the “job” as commonwealth Prince, certainly not by my definition anyway.

The Commonwealth focus was clearly a means for Harry and Meghan to carve a path of their own, while William and Catherine were focusing more on their preparations towards becoming the Prince and princess of Wales and eventually succeeding to the throne.

It was clear Harry did not want to become a 'workhorse' prince like the princess royal who is doing lots of the mundane royal stuff. For her younger brothers the family also tried to create their own niche. In Andrew's case it wasn't that successful with his international trade but it seems to be working relatively well for Edward with his focus on the Duke of Edinburgh awards. In addition, he and Sophie take on lots of other patronages and activities. So, the various steps taken to given Harry and Meghan a prominent role in the Commonwealth seemed to be a great way for them to do meaningful things not just in Britain but worldwide and have their own important part to play within the royal family.

 

[Betsypaige]

I think her leaving the country, and him remaining here ALONE to cope with 'the fallout' is a particularly bad look, and one that is every bit as unfortunate for 'trust' as the perceived 'kick in the teeth' delivered to HMQ, the PoW & the DoC, when they went public with their 'plan' the other day..

None of it speaks of rationality, let alone unity of purpose.

That’s exactly what I thought. There’s a quote out there saying that Meghan tends to flee ...that does not speak well for her. Of course, leaving Archie in Canada so either or both of them could use him as an excuse to flee is a terrible optic as well.

 

[LadyGlendower]

Re Wyevale’s post #1329-I think this has merit. Loose cannon is a good description.
Harry & Meghan have done themselves no favors. The people who have always held a negative view feel justified. Many of those that were neutral or casual fans have soured on them. Their super fans are the only ones still wholeheartedly supporting the Sussexes.

I started out optimistic for this pairing as worker bees in the BRF. But I have lost respect for them in this sense as their words and actions in public life sent a mixed message---and self-interest seems to be tipping the balance away from altruism.
I'm talking only public personas because I don't know either of them.

 

[Lumutqueen]

The Commonwealth focus was clearly a means for Harry and Meghan to carve a path of their own, while William and Catherine were focusing more on their preparations towards becoming the Prince and princess of Wales and eventually succeeding to the throne.

Whilst they may have had a commonwealth focus, something they appeared passionate about which they have now abandoned. He is not a commonwealth Prince.

It was clear Harry did not want to become a 'workhorse' prince like the princess royal who is doing lots of the mundane royal stuff.

My bolding, sorry to what do you refer to as mundane royal stuff? Do you mean day to day engagements, where members of the public and her royal patronages get to see a hard working royal who is representing her mother where possible? Sorry I don't see how any of that is mundane, or in your tone to be looked down upon.

In regards to him being a workhorse prince, that was what his life was always going to be about. He should be representing his grandmother, and in later years his father for years to come. He is a royal prince, and he's 35 and before all this nonsense he was highly over shadowed on the engagement front by his Aunt and Uncles.

 

[Fem]

I wasn't meaning you specifically...I don't even remember all the names. My point was ppl keep flipping back and forth.

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.

There's this wonderful phrase in polish - only a cow doesn't change its mind. When new facts come to the public knowledge, it's completely normal to change one's opinion. People don't have to stay by that one thing they said two years ago, or even a week ago, they're allowed to change their mind.

As far as the unreliable part... To me, they did. Coming forward with this plan while they were asked to wait a bit until a solid plan will be in place is unreliable as hell. And before you'll yell at me that this is just tabloid gossip, if BP/CH/KP were ready for the Sussexes to come forward with their plan, EVERYTHING would already be in place. Meghan running away to Canada and leaving Harry to come up with a solution - unreliable. Once again making a mess out of a situation that could be resolved maybe not more quietly, but definitely in a calmer way - unreliable.

Not to mention, it might not be possible for them to continue with their royal duties - oh sorry, collaborating with HMQ - while they're being "financially independent" and making "professional income", depending on what kind of business activity they have in mind.

 

[Erin9]

H&M have not proven to be unreliable at all. They have not missed any engagements I'm aware of and still plan to continue to do engagements and their patronages per their official website.







LaRae

They’re demanding to go from full time to part time. And they’re demanding it now. Immediately. That sounds unreliable to me. That’s not the job- the commitment- they took on. That wasn’t the plan. They’re not dependable really. The rest of the family was relying on them to be full time support. Nothing about the last few years suggests anything other than that was the expectation. I don’t buy Charles was planning on cutting Harry out. Things would have been handled much differently had that been the plan.

If this is what they want- so be it. Don’t stay FT if you’re going to be miserable. And probably making everyone around them miserable too no doubt.

But- while they may get some of what they want, losing 2 full time members, on top of Andrew, is undoubtedly causing more work and stress for everyone else. Who- it’s worth noting- is Harry’s own family. Just working this out must be a nightmare. Especially since they decided to make this all so very public before plans were finalized. Puts more pressure on them. I have more sympathy with those dealing with the fallout than the Sussexes.

I really didn’t have any issues with them until they did that interview where they complained about how hard their lives were and Harry acknowledged the problems with William. It came across as a sympathy ploy- and even more so now. Seems like a rather manipulative and calculated way to try and get public support before dropping their bombshell. And- truly no excuse for talking about private family matters publicly imo.

Besides which- then and now I have trouble getting overly sympathetic with 2 people complaining publicly when they have: a happy marriage, healthy child, money, nice homes, good health, friends, family, causes they clearly enjoy supporting, etc. They had stressful things (the press, etc) to deal with. So does everyone In their own lives.

Anyhow- now there’s this. The statement they released without telling anyone beforehand they were going to do it was just out of line. No one deserved that. Regardless of the leak. Who cares. You strategize and work with your family when making the announcement.

And them leaving Archie, and Meghan immediately leaving tells me they likely intended on announcing publicly before anything was finalized anyway. The leak seems to have worked out well for them. And that website wasn’t built in hours to make their public case. It took much more time.

Then- there’s the wish list/demands. No need to say ANYTHING until things are settled. Which clearly they were not. It’s a fascinatingly detailed and vague list all at the same time. And all it does is invite speculation because it is so vague. Also way out of line imo to go into all that before any agreement had been finalized.

I didn’t buy into Meghan is high maintenance/ difficult. I do now. They both come across as demanding, high maintenance and frankly exhausting imo just with the way this has been conducted. And that’s just the little bit we see publicly. I can only imagine behind the scenes.

 

[Mbruno]

Very few people are against them changing their direction in life although some wonder why they didn't express that desire 2 years ago. What people do worry about is them pursuing a career that looks very much like being 'private royals'.


I would expect that as long as there is a perceived threat they will indeed receive security. However, especially if they have no public function that might include severly limiting how they go about their lives and living in a different country unless agreed upon by all relevant parties is most likely not feasible if you still expect the British police to take care of your security.


It's very different when things like these are clear from the start and are executed in close cooperation with all involved - although I am sure there are still limits on what Constantijn & Laurentien can do in terms of career; even the Van Vollenhoven princes are expected to at least consider the impact of their actions on the royal family. Bernhard receives quite some criticism but I am pretty sure the royal family would not agree if he expected to be allowed to call the race circuit in Zandvoort 'The Van Oranje-Nassau Royal racing circuit' as he would be mixing business and his royal role.

In this case, they are just telling the BRF by publishing a website what their demands are, which includes complete freedom to pursue their own commercial interests AND free housing AND security AND occasional royal duties, including worldwide tours for the British government. So, imho not comparable to the Dutch situation at all.

It has been pointed out by several posters that Harry and Meghan's wish list is completely different in many ways from Prince Constantijn's or Princess Madeleine's situation, but, apparently, Duc et Pair was not following the discussion in depth. I won't go back to that topic to avoid repeating myself.

 

[Denville]

The Commonwealth focus was clearly a means for Harry and Meghan to carve a path of their own, while William and Catherine were focusing more on their preparations towards becoming the Prince and princess of Wales and eventually succeeding to the throne.

It was clear Harry did not want to become a 'workhorse' prince like the princess royal who is doing lots of the mundane royal stuff. For her younger brothers the family also tried to create their own niche. In Andrew's case it wasn't that successful with his international trade but it seems to be working relatively well for Edward with his focus on the Duke of Edinburgh awards. In addition, he and Sophie take on lots of other patronages and activities. So, the various steps taken to given Harry and Meghan a prominent role in the Commonwealth seemed to be a great way for them to do meaningful things not just in Britain but worldwide and have their own important part to play within the royal family.

It was a pretty plummy appointment.. I can't see how it can be said that they were not offered/ set up with the Commonwealth Role... Harry has said that he loves Africa, and would surely welcome chances to go there and work for people in Commonwealth coutnries there.. And I can't see why it wasn't a "good enough job" for them.. or why they didn't refuse it earlier.... if they did not like it...