New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Izzie]

Well, then you're saying Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra are liars. They say the things you believe happened, did not.

The Queen is the Head...the buck starts and stops with her. You don't send staff to do your dirty work. That's not a leader. Then the abysmal communications department...which mishandled this as well.

Has anyone thought that this version of the decision was something that the Queen literally just thought up and without any counsel went with it. She just woke up and decided arbitrarily that this was the decision and rammed it through? Maybe even though the other parties either thought things had been put on hold or other versions were being discussed? And that is where all the shock and hurt is coming from? Maybe the one that went rogue was the Queen? Now there can be speculations as to why.

Something is still not reconciling for me.

 

[Prinsara]

This is just a thought process, so don't attack me. I firmly believe the removal of the titles are the way to go and perhaps it should have been done as soon as Christian was born. I think Joachim has been aware of this happening for a long time maybe as far back as 2008.

Joachim has had a near death experience with his brain bleed and something like that makes you stop and sometimes rethink the direction of life. There is sometimes no reason to thoughts but things you were ok with before like your children not being a Prince or Princess suddenly matter a great deal. You can appear perfectly sound of mind and function normally but you can't let go of this thought and become stubborn on the subject.

Joachim has always seemed a very Royal person, almost like he was above everyone else. So even if he kind of understood why it needs to happen deep inside he doesn't agree and that's why he is so devastated.

There is pretty much one clip of Joachim on YouTube, pre-brain bleed, and I've always thought it summed him up very well.

"I'm not as you think or hear or in some cases, as I want to be."
He's not arrogant. He is broody and probably holds a bit too much in, until his brain explodes or points like the present.

 

[tommy100]

Its interesting we keep falling back to "Joachim is the 'most' royal etc. Because I ask myself - well who helped make him like that? Oh yes, Margrethe the Queen of formality and "properness". He is a making of his parents but his love of status and royalty strikes me as more in line with his mother than his father tbh. I also don't believe they both (his mother and father) did enough to prepare him for life outside the RF - they lumbered him with an estate to farm regardless of his own thoughts on it. They seem to have bought him up IMO to be really rather royal with not much else to try his hand at. Farming in the way Schackenborg requires was never going to be a full time job for Joachim, he was always going to be a "gentleman farmer" meaning much of his time would still need filling. This is IMO the problem in a lot of RFs - they want to slim down but have people / family members who haven't really ever had to do anything else. That's why IMO it can't be an "overnight" fix but needs to be a more gradual approach. I don't think taking titles away is really the answer, it needs to be more a case of seeing where those titles are and changing the rules accordingly, possibly making those with them now personal titles instead of ones that can be inherited/gained on marriage etc.

 

[Toledo]

As for the BT poll, in all fairness it has to be said that the BT coverage so far has been very pro-Joachim/Alexandra.

For a more balanced reader-poll I suggest Dr.dk or tv2.dk. The (in principle) republican paper Politiken.dk or the (more commerce oriented) newspaper Jyllandsposten.dk - if any of these will make and publish a reader-poll.

Thanks!
My opinion on polls is if they are after the online article then are charged with a lot of emotion depending on how the article was worded out. Kind of the self-fulfilling prophecy from science class.

(..)

 

[Frelinghighness]

What a bunch of babies
I’m done with them

 

[Toledo]

What a bunch of babies
I’m done with them

Agreed. Joachin needs to cool off the engine because these reactions will come back to haunt him soon.

I can only imagine Queen MII having her secretary calling him like:
"Joachim Holger Waldemar Christian, your mother would like a word with you...now. Please stop by the Queen of Denmark and commander-in-chief's palace right away and bring Alexandra on your way here, too. And make it snappy"

 

[polyesco]

Well, then you're saying Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra are liars. They say the things you believe happened, did not.

I'm saying that what they have said is not necessary the whole truth. They are not going to freely admit to their mistakes. And the Queen is not going to run to the nearest tabloid magazine to tell her side.
I mean what actions did Joachim take since May? Did he think this will go away. Did he try to demand something else.
How do we say recollections may vary in Danish

Now Alexandra, well she has bent the truth defending her son before. A few years back Prince Nikolai posed for a new car or to borrow a car. Alexandra was quick to come out to say they had manipulated her boy. When the real truth was a little more like Nikolai agreed to this.
A quick Google search but I remember a long discussion in these forums.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/ekspert-de...traekke-undskyldning-paa-prins-nikolais-vegne
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-nikolai-promoverer-biludlejningsselskab-kongehuset-beklager

So no. I don't believe Alexandra 100%

 

[Marengo]

***​

General observation: it would be appreciated if we could all have a bit more patience for each others opinions. Posters will look differently at this issue. There is no need to use harsh words, or to constantly try to seek fault and offence. Such aggressive behavior does not improve the atmosphere, it lowers the quality of the discussion and and it is not in the spirit of this forum.

The same goes for the key players in this issue. There is no reason to insult Prince Joachim, Princess Marie, Queen Margrethe II, Countess Alexandra etc. It should be very well possible to convey your feelings without using insults.

Feel free to disagree all you want but it is time for some of you to tone down the volume. If that can not be done voluntarily the mod. team will be forced to intervene and suspend accounts of posters who forget that in this forum we discuss as friends who disagree on an issue, not as deadly enemies.

If you find that you can not control your emotions or temper in this thread, take a step back, log off and return when you are able to discuss this matter in a more suitable manner.

 

[Princess Mahala]

No heating till November is my motto.

I think the Queen has been fine. She was obviously encountering resistance and just had to it. They rest should have behaved professionally.

I agree with this and understand what "act professionally" mean to ordinary persons but if it's seen from their view that's their entire life, not a job; they're born into it or give up their former life marrying in. From the outside of course it sounds "out of touch" and doesn't matter as there are more important issues to worry about in life but to them it's a deep part of their identity and they're hurt. Now, speaking to the media was disrespectful, some things are best kept private and shouldn't have gone to the press but they obviously want to show how upset they are. Unfortunately they're just making matters worse and embarrassing themselves.

 

[ronald biver]

Queen Margrethe II has made up her mind about the titles in her family and I respect her final say, personally I think HM made a mistake, that is my opinion.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Queen Margrethe II has made up her mind about the titles in her family and I respect her final say, personally I think HM made a mistake, that is my opinion.

It is not a mistake but is only very logic and very wise that persons who have no role in the Royal House have no title of said Royal House. The example I gave a few posts earlier is illustrative: otherwise in 50 years, in 2072, there would be Princes or Princesses of Denmark walking around, who hold that title because a Queen, three Reigns ago, happened to be their Nan.

This is 2022. It is really not sustainable to continue as if it is still 1922.

 

[sm1939]

It is not a mistake but is only very logic and very wise that persons who have no role in the Royal House have no title of said Royal House. The example I gave a few posts earlier is illustrative: otherwise in 50 years, in 2072, there would be Princes or Princesses of Denmark walking around, who hold that title because a Queen, three Reigns ago, happened to be their Nan.

This is 2022. It is really not sustainable to continue as if it is still 1922.

I agree, think its a good move, slimming down the Royal house is the way forward, if they aren't a working Royal, why do they need to have a title of Prince or Princess ? to get a better day job ? or some easy money like advertising something or Modeling ? ( I know Modeling is hard if you don't have the right connections in life .)

 

[Prinsara]

It is not a mistake but is only very logic and very wise that persons who have no role in the Royal House have no title of said Royal House. The example I gave a few posts earlier is illustrative: otherwise in 50 years, in 2072, there would be Princes or Princesses of Denmark walking around, who hold that title because a Queen, three Reigns ago, happened to be their Nan.

This is 2022. It is really not sustainable to continue as if it is still 1922.

None of Joachim's children were able to transmit titles to any future children they might have.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

None of Joachim's children were able to transmit titles to any future children they might have.

I was not talking about the future children but about themselves: in 2072, maybe in the Reign of King Christian, a Princess Athena of Denmark would still only be 50 years old, never had any role in the Royal House but still walk around with a royal title of said House because three Reigns ago a Queen happened to be her Nan.


That in 2072 there is a 50-years old Komtesse af Monpezat walking around, a cousine to King Christian, is more logic in the desire of having the focus on a limited Royal House.

 

[Queen Claude]

I recall when the announcement was made about changes in the Swedish Royal Family that many expressed surprise not at the changes themselves and the need for the change, rather that the King did it himself and did not leave it to his heir apparent. I suspect that this is at play here as well. As others have mentioned the Danish Royal Family has used marriage as a means of thinning / streamlining in the past. However how well would that approach play out to modern sensibilities?

The Danish Royal Family has already allowed unequal / commoner marriages, so they cannot use an unequal marriage as a means of streamlining. Where they have not been tested / challenged is when it comes to marrying Danish commoners. Frederik and Joachim married foreigners, Princess Elisabeth chose to not marry and her brother Ingolf chose not to seek consent for his marriage to a Danish commoner because he did not expect the marriage to be approved.

My take (and others) is that the real issue / objection is removing the princely titles, and despite what Alexandra's spokesperson said, I suspect that Joachim, et. al., would not have quietly accepted any of his children losing their titles upon marriage. Furthermore (IMO), the negativity that the current or future monarch would encounter would be considerably more for stripping titles upon marriage, than what is being experienced now, especially since there is a good likelihood that the marriage would be to a Danish commoner.

How do we say recollections may vary in Danish

(regardless of my opinion on the matter)

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I never bought the solution to take the titles away at the age of 25. Where is the sense in that? Better do it now, even in the quick & dirty manner the Queen chose (presumably).

The international press is all over this, especially DM because of the similarity to Harry and Charles' upcoming decision re titles.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-admits-relationship-brother-complicated.html

 

[Toledo]

Thanks!
My opinion on polls is if they are after the online article then are charged with a lot of emotion depending on how the article was worded out. Kind of the self-fulfilling prophecy from science class.

(..)

I'm back!!! I found my original username Toledo and PW buried in a word doc note. So I'll stop posting as username Anscadar and see if the Mods can merge both accounts in. Sorry for the confusion, my fault for forgetting my username Toledo and confusing it with my former avatar, a picture of El Cid.

My last visit as Toledo was on 04-10-2008 at 12:57 AM, last post on 8/27/2007!

Now back to the thread. The more I read on reducing royals the more I think of Japan's tradition to remove Princesses if they marry commoners while keeping males within the Imperial house. That backfired. In the case of Denmark, where gender of the monarch was already put to a vote, I bet the more the pressure from Joachin and Co plus the public the more Queen MII should stay with her decision to trim down titles for the next generation taking over.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Perhaps something got lost in the reams of posts about this subject, but what exactly is the issue with marrying a Danish commoner? If Frederik had married a Danish commoner, would there have been a huge outcry or something?

 

[JR76]

Perhaps something got lost in the reams of posts about this subject, but what exactly is the issue with marrying a Danish commoner? If Frederik had married a Danish commoner, would there have been a huge outcry or something?

There is no rule against Danish royals marrying other Danes, but the Queen has spoken about her parents preferring her to marry a foreigner since it wasn't seen as suitable to have her in-laws, so to say, in the face of the Danes all the time. This is something that she said she agreed with and encouraged her sons to marry foreigners as well. At the same time she said that there was never any pressure on her to marry a royal although her father was initially worried because Henri Monpezat wasn't "someone we know".

 

[Bonastre]

It is not a mistake but is only very logic and very wise that persons who have no role in the Royal House have no title of said Royal House. The example I gave a few posts earlier is illustrative: otherwise in 50 years, in 2072, there would be Princes or Princesses of Denmark walking around, who hold that title because a Queen, three Reigns ago, happened to be their Nan.

This is 2022. It is really not sustainable to continue as if it is still 1922.

Are there a lot of Princes of Denmark roaming the earth now, descended from Christian X who reigned 1912 to 1947?
I would say that rigorous agnatic transmission ensures the dignity keeps scarce.

 

[Queen Claude]

Perhaps something got lost in the reams of posts about this subject, but what exactly is the issue with marrying a Danish commoner? If Frederik had married a Danish commoner, would there have been a huge outcry or something?

You have two constituencies, the monarch and the Danish public.

Frederik dated Danish commoners before and as far as I know there was no outcry from the Danish public, and if so it was probably due to a couple of them being models. I find it hard to believe that the Danish public would have a problem with a royal marrying a native Dane. I know that some do not like comparing different royal houses, but using that as a yardstick, generally when royals have married a fellow countryperson, it has been favorably received.

Regarding the monarch, things have evolved. I think that the "rule" is that the monarch's permission is needed if the royal wants to retain succession rights, and getting the monarch's permission can be "rules" driven, but also tradition and bias driven.

Up to the time of Margrethe's father Frederik iX, royal marriages in Denmark were "equal" marriages, specifically royals marrying other royals. According to Wikipedia, Frederik iX liberalized the practice to allow "royal spouses who were not themselves royal, but who claimed noble blood." Somewhere in the backdrop to this was the attitude that Danish royals should not marry native Danes for fear of things like the married-in's family obtaining some kind of advantage, exerting influence and/or their actions reflecting on the DRF. Margrethe then liberalized things further to allow marriages to commoners but she's maintained the bias against Danish royals marrying Danes and IMO has been fortunate that she has not really been challenged on that front due to her sons marrying non-Danes and her cousin choosing to cohabitate with, rather than marry, her Danish partner.

Are there a lot of Princes of Denmark roaming the earth now, descended from Christian X who reigned 1912 to 1947?
I would say that rigorous agnatic transmission ensures the dignity keeps scarce.

Agnatic transmission was repealed in Denmark in 1947, it was replaced with cognatic primogeniture which was replaced with absolute primogeniture in 2009.

Yes agnatic transmission would keep things scarce but it does not align with current sensibilities. On a side note, agnatic transmission has presented challenges in the past in Denmark and other monarchies when there were not male heirs in the direct line.

 

[Kataryn]

I was not talking about the future children but about themselves: in 2072, maybe in the Reign of King Christian, a Princess Athena of Denmark would still only be 50 years old, never had any role in the Royal House but still walk around with a royal title of said House because three Reigns ago a Queen happened to be her Nan.


That in 2072 there is a 50-years old Komtesse af Monpezat walking around, a cousine to King Christian, is more logic in the desire of having the focus on a limited Royal House.

She'd be 60 in 2072, not 50. And I wouldn't care if she was a princess of Denmark if she behaved appropriate. "Ah, yes, she is the daughter of the king's late uncle, so his unmarried cousin" sound absolutely understandible to me. While "why is a lady with a French sounding name the first cousin of the king?" is a question that to me sounds far more irritating, as I'd have to learn that obviously the Ruling dynasty is not "of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" but the "af Monpezat".



Questions: Iisn't Glücksburg in Germany? And aren't the "Windsors" in the Uk, then probably king George, the true "Of SHSG"-dynasty after Prince Philippos of Greece & Denmark? Or the Norwegian Royals, queen Ingrid Alexandra who is of the dynasty "of SHSG" as well? Strange things here!. In Denmark though the Royal family are the descendants of the French Count de Monpezat while the true SHSGs in Denmark are the Counts of Rosenborg of which at least Count Philip, born 1986, still lives.

Are there a lot of Princes of Denmark roaming the earth now, descended from Christian X who reigned 1912 to 1947?
I would say that rigorous agnatic transmission ensures the dignity keeps scarce.

No, but there are some of male-line Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-descendants of the then Royal family named Count of Rosenborg. They are not considered "family" and are not in the line of succession anymore due to a Royal and then parliamental decree but they still hold the title of a "Count" in the Danish nobility.

 

[Stefan]

She'd be 60 in 2072, not 50. And I wouldn't care if she was a princess of Denmark if she behaved appropriate. "Ah, yes, she is the daughter of the king's late uncle, so his unmarried cousin" sound absolutely understandible to me. While "why is a lady with a French sounding name the first cousin of the king?" is a question that to me sounds far more irritating, as I'd have to learn that obviously the Ruling dynasty is not "of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" but the "af Monpezat".



Questions: Iisn't Glücksburg in Germany? And aren't the "Windsors" in the Uk, then probably king George, the true "Of SHSG"-dynasty after Prince Philippos of Greece & Denmark? Or the Norwegian Royals, queen Ingrid Alexandra who is of the dynasty "of SHSG" as well? Strange things here!. In Denmark though the Royal family are the descendants of the French Count de Monpezat while the true SHSGs in Denmark are the Counts of Rosenborg of which at least Count Philip, born 1986, still lives.

Yes Glücksburg is in North-Germany. And the true although not reigning SHSG-dynasty is the ducal House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücskburg who are descendants of an older brother of King Christian IX.

 

[Toledo]

She'd be 60 in 2072, not 50. And I wouldn't care if she was a princess of Denmark if she behaved appropriate. "Ah, yes, she is the daughter of the king's late uncle, so his unmarried cousin" sound absolutely understandible to me. While "why is a lady with a French sounding name the first cousin of the king?" is a question that to me sounds far more irritating, as I'd have to learn that obviously the Ruling dynasty is not "of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" but the "af Monpezat".



Questions: Iisn't Glücksburg in Germany? And aren't the "Windsors" in the Uk, then probably king George, the true "Of SHSG"-dynasty after Prince Philippos of Greece & Denmark? Or the Norwegian Royals, queen Ingrid Alexandra who is of the dynasty "of SHSG" as well? Strange things here!. In Denmark though the Royal family are the descendants of the French Count de Monpezat while the true SHSGs in Denmark are the Counts of Rosenborg of which at least Count Philip, born 1986, still lives.

a related (no pun intended) QMII and family surname question:

That is a question that also intrigues me, when the female ruling monarch marries into a different surname, historically a new dynasty starts, with their child/heir, for the record books. But we live in different times where the surname is more flexible and royal children can take over the dynasty name for continuity purposes.
Anyone knows if in Denmark this was applied and if the Monpezat will be added to the tag House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Are there a lot of Princes of Denmark roaming the earth now, descended from Christian X who reigned 1912 to 1947?
I would say that rigorous agnatic transmission ensures the dignity keeps scarce.

Without any limit to the royal titulature these persons would be (or have been) Princes and Princess of (or to) Denmark

prins Aage, greve af Rosenborg
Valdemar, greve af Rosenborg
prins Erik, greve af Rosenborg
Alexandra, komtesse af Rosenborg
Christian, greve af Rosenborg
+ 2 children of Christian, etc.
prins Viggo, greve af Rosenborg
prins Flemming, greve af Rosenborg
Axel greve af Rosenborg
+ 4 children of Axel, etc.
Birger greve af Rosenborg
+ 1 child of Birger, etc.
Carl Johan greve af Rosenborg
+ 2 children of Carl Johan, etc.
Desirée komtesse af Rosenborg
prins Oluf, greve af Rosenborg
Ulrik greve af Rosenborg
+ 2 children of Ulrik, etc.
Charlotte komtesse af Rosenborg
prins Ingolf, greve af Rosenborg
prins Christian, greve af Rosenborg
Josephine komtesse af Rosenborg
Camilla komtesse af Rosenborg
Feodora komtesse af Rosenborg

 

[Muhler]

Breaking:

https://www.bt.dk/royale/kongehuset...s-boerns-fremtid-der-er-fortsat-elementer-som

Now that Joachim's children soon won't be full members of the DRF anymore there are a number of questions:
Will they appear at DRF events in the future?
Will the children have last names and new passports?
Will they, in light of their new titles, be nobles and no longer royal?
Will they begin to vote in elections?
Will they lose their immunity?

The response from Lene Balleby at the PR office is:
"There are still elements that needs to be determined finally."

Alexandra's secretary has declined to comment on the latest response from the court.

ADDED:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...lie-lukker-nu-helt-ned-slut-med-ord-om-krisen

Alexandra's secretary has said that Alexandra and J&M will no longer comment on this issue at present.

- I interpret that as talks taking place behind the scenes and a compromise regarding the chidlren is being worked out. - Well, I sure hope I'm right!

 

[suztav]

Breaking:

https://www.bt.dk/royale/kongehuset...s-boerns-fremtid-der-er-fortsat-elementer-som

Now that Joachim's children soon won't be full members of the DRF anymore there are a number of questions:
Will they appear at DRF events in the future?
Will the children have last names and new passports?
Will they, in light of their new titles, be nobles and no longer royal?
Will they begin to vote in elections?
Will they lose their immunity?

The response from Lene Balleby at the PR office is:
"There are still elements that needs to be determined finally."

Alexandra's secretary has declined to comment on the latest response from the court.

ADDED:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...lie-lukker-nu-helt-ned-slut-med-ord-om-krisen

Alexandra's secretary has said that Alexandra and J&M will no longer comment on this issue at present.

- I interpret that as talks taking place behind the scenes and a compromise regarding the chidlren is being worked out. - Well, I sure hope I'm right!

I interpret it as they've been told to stop whining about privilege!

 

[Prinsara]

The response from Lene Balleby at the PR office is:
"There are still elements that needs to be determined finally."

Alexandra's secretary has declined to comment on the latest response from the court.

ADDED:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...lie-lukker-nu-helt-ned-slut-med-ord-om-krisen

Alexandra's secretary has said that Alexandra and J&M will no longer comment on this issue at present.

- I interpret that as talks taking place behind the scenes and a compromise regarding the chidlren is being worked out. - Well, I sure hope I'm right!

"There are still elements to be determined finally" is not very much of a response to start with.

 

[muriel]

Alexandra's secretary has said that Alexandra and J&M will no longer comment on this issue at present.

- I interpret that as talks taking place behind the scenes and a compromise regarding the chidlren is being worked out. - Well, I sure hope I'm right!

Talks notwithstanding, I do hope the Queen does not back down on the matter and holds the line.

I interpret it as they've been told to stop whining about privilege!

I certainly hope that this is indeed correct.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Will someone please explain why everyone insists on referring to the Danish, Norwegian and Greek royal dynasties as "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg"?

I am well aware that they descend in male line from the ducal house of Sonderburg, itself descended in male line from the ducal house of Schleswig and Holstein, itself descended in male line from the royal house of Denmark.

But all three royal houses have made clear that the name of their house is Glücksburg (in Danish, Glücksborg).

https://www.kongehuset.dk/en/menu/news/150-years-of-the-house-of-glcksborg

"Friday, 15 November 2013, the House of Glücksborg celebrates 150 years on the Danish throne. The Glücksborg dynasty, to which Her Majesty The Queen belongs, is the fourth and youngest branch of the Danish royal lines that descended from Gorm the Old and Queen Thyra in the mid-900s.

The currently-reigning Glücksborg dynasty descends from Christian IX (1863-1906) and Queen Louise. Thus, it is the youngest branch in the royal lineage, whose roots go back more than a thousand years."​

Are there a lot of Princes of Denmark roaming the earth now, descended from Christian X who reigned 1912 to 1947?

No, because out of his six grandchildren:

Princess Benedikte, Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian married without the King's formal consent as required by the 1953 Act of Succession. (The King gave conditional consent to the marriage of Benedikte and she did not fulfill those conditions.)

Princess Elisabeth remained unmarried (and according to her statements, she would not have received the Queen's legal consent if she had married her Danish commoner partner).

Princess Anne-Marie married the King of the Hellenes and her children belonged to the Greek royal family.

The end result was that the only grandchild who could perpetuate the dynasty was Princess (now Queen) Margrethe II.

I would say that rigorous agnatic transmission ensures the dignity keeps scarce.

As Duc_et_Pair pointed out, even if Denmark had retained agnatic succession, there would be many Princes of Denmark if it hadn't been for marriages to commoners (and formerly even marriages to non-royal nobles) being used to deprive princes of their royal status.