Prinsara
Heir Apparent
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I sincerely hope Athena has dozens of copies of the book A Little Princess, if she didn't own one by now.
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And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?
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Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.
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Juan Carlos survived on decades and decades of good will. El rey campechano couldn't have been more different than Daisy in knowing how to handle people.
And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?
He left it to Felipe.
In other words, it was a decision of the Spanish government. That is in accordance with the Spanish constitution, which says that the King merely issues the decrees approved by the Council of Ministers. Since the decree affected the titles of his family, I imagine that the King was consulted and was probably in agreement, but ultimately the government is responsible.A propuesta del Ministro de Justicia, previa deliberación del Consejo de Ministros en su reunión del día 6 de noviembre de 1987,
DISPONGO:
I agree with you. The "Dianafication" within monarchies becomes more and more popular... Gosh, how much I miss these "stiff upper lip" times...!Oh my god what is so difficult about saying 'no comment'. J&M really have to get their side of the story out there, haven't they. They should have kept their mouths shut alltogether, from the beginning. Instead they are turning this whole issue into a soap opera what will not change the fact that the titles are gone, get over it and move on, at least in public.
In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.
A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.
I think he meant that Juan Carlos took the title of HRH Infante/Infanta from children of Infantes/Infantas, keeping it only for the children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias.
However, that was done in Spain by a Royal Decree that was pre-approved in the Council of Minister on the proposal of the Minister of Justice.
I agree with you. The "Dianafication" within monarchies becomes more and more popular... Gosh, how much I miss these "stiff upper lip" times...!
If you go to User CP and your thread subscription options it should let you change your notifications.
Juan Carlos survived on decades and decades of good will. El rey campechano couldn't have been more different than Daisy in knowing how to handle people.
And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?
He left it to Felipe.
Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.
I am not sure why everyone is assuming a priori that Nikolai would lose his title if he married his Danish girlfriend. It is true that marriages in the past of Danish princes to Danish brides were denied consent, but that was more because they were expected to marry equally and, to do that, unless they married their own Danish cousins, they necessarily had to marry a foreign princess. There is only one Royal House in Denmark, and marriage to any Danish subject who was not a member of the Royal House, even someone from the nobility, would be unequal.
It is also true that Joachim and Frederik married foreign women, but, now that the requeriment of equal marriages is no longer enforced, we can't automatically assume that someone as low as Nikolai in the order of succession would be denied consent to marry if he wanted to marry a Dane. In fact, if he asked for consent in King Frederik X's reign, I would be very surprised if Frederik denied it.
Well...BT has now dragged Mary's work into it
https://www.bt.dk/royale/peter-ingemann-i-skarp-kritik-af-kongehuset-det-er-en-katastrofe
Mary is already getting some less than favorable comments on the DRF FB posts from her event and on a couple of other posts....not to mention QMII is getting comments also on posts ranging from those that basically think she's done sort of infallible deity to those really upset and downright angry with what she's done.
I knew that at the end of the day Mary and Frederik would end up holding this huge bag of turds. They way QMII handled this and continues to handle this has really screwed over M&F. But sure she took one for the team. Thanks Daisy. I'm sure she's going to just sit having and let now Frederik, Mary AND Mary's work get maligned..because..hold on...let me check....she is THE almighty Queen of the longest reign....she shall not demean herself with dealing with these pesky mortal consequences, fallout and collateral damage of HER own actions and mishandling of same. Must be nice to sit on that perch and watch with a wave and smile as Rome burns. I wonder if she has a fiddle too.
I don't think anyone has stated that their feelings are irrelevant, they main issue is with how they went to the press with it instead of to the person who made the decision, i.e., their (grand)mother.I'm not at all opposed to slimming down the DRF if that is what the Danish citizenry want. It's their monarchy after all, and I definitely approve of keeping standards as far as how members of the DRF portray themselves personally and professionally. My objection to this entire exercise was how poorly it was handled and I also don't understand why some people think that Joachim and his family shouldn't be upset about it.
According to the court's spokesperson there were different proposals floating around in the last few months. So, that doesn't sound as if there was no communication in between. And as others stated, Joachim was asked, and granted, the opportunity to give his input. Whether he used that opportunity (wisely) or not and if so, whether his suggestions were incorporated in the final decision, we don't know. But we do know that he didn't tell his children about it until about a week ago...If we are to believe Joachim's statement, and I have no reason not to, this was meant to be a proposal for the child's 25th birthday, and one that wasn't discussed with him further until he was told (not by his mother or brother) that it was taking effect immediately. In essence, his children were given five days notice that their very names were about to be stripped from them. I wonder how we would feel if one day we were told that our names from birth were no longer ours, and oh by the way, you can't be upset about it.
Pardon me for repeating myself here but going off of Joachim's own statement, it is not really true that QMII's side went directly from the May proposal to the 5 days notice. Joachim himself says that he asked for respite after the May proposal: "I asked for time to consider [the proposal] and to return with my feedback. They would take note of that." He just doesn't elaborate on whether he ever returned his feedback but according to Joachim's own timeline, the ball was left in his court after 5 May.
I think removing the titles retroactively is nonsensical and I understand why it doesn't make sense to Joachim's side either but if this is a case of Joachim having gone 5+ months without returning this feedback, I don't think it's unreasonable for QMII's side to eventually put their foot down (although there's no excuse for QMII not informing him herself).
Because based on their respective comments, the act of removing of the titles is clearly the main issue for first Alexandra, then Joachim and now Marie. Only Nikolai emphasises the handling in his comment.
(...)
I do too. Criticising other Royal Family members in the media, whichever country is involved, never ends well.
I heavily disagree with the decision to REMOVE titles. Once you've given them, let them remain but maybe their children shouldn't get titles. I think Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have every right to be upset. The monarch is small in Denmark anyway, I can't for the love of me understand taking titles away from the grandchildren of a Queen or future King.
In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.
A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.
Try to see it more practically: these grandchildren of Queen Margrethe, these nephews and nieces of future King Frederik, these cousins and cousines of future King Christian will never have any role in the Royal House of Denmark.
Therefore it was seen as desirable not to have persons walking around - for probably 80 more years to go- with the title Prince (Princess) of Denmark.
As the Romans already said it two Centuries ago - Imperare est Inspicere (in futurum), meaning: Governing is Foreseeing. Back then, when Prince Joachim's eldest child was born, his brother Crown Prince Frederik was still unmarried.
Now the Crown Prince has plenty of children, the situation has changed, will change again when he his King, will change once again when his son is King. The four children of Prince Joachim will move to the outmost periphery of the monarchy until in 50 years time, in 2072, no one knows why they are Princes and Princesses of Denmark.
By every rationale this is a wise decision and with the hereditary title Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat they belong to the aristocracy for possibly many generations to go.
Well, Joachim gets an apanage from the Danish taxpayer, if he is unhappy, he could have left but with the knowledge that he has to pay for his own lifestyle and the lifestyle of his family.Considering all the points that have been made before in understanding Joachim's hurt, reading what you said,Duke, sounds like you think Joachim and his family are owned by his mother's family and as such, he must be her slave and just obey in public. Not talking about his hurt with anyone outside, even on knowing that he won't find understanding by the rest of the family, That would happen in an ideal world but the Sussexes in the UK have shown us that the Royal slave (that is: the former spare) can go away, treat his family just like a family when it comes to burying his grandmother, but otherwise stay away from it because he knows exactly that it's not just the family but the courtiers, employees and servants around them who can make a life insufferable. And it's only the Royal's place to decide when enough is enough and not the respective monarch as Head of the family/House.
Its always easy to say he's a slave, but if he is, he is a very well paid and privileged slave. All this is complaining on a very high level from somebody who used to be important for the institution but not anymore. Joachim still is super privileged and that comes at a price.
Joachim seem to have obeyed his whole life. He became a military man, then a farmer and is now in the military again in Paris - probably the best place in a foreign country for him and his wife and kids, as he is half-French and Marie fully, so their kids are 3/4 French, so it should even work for a longer time. So I don't understand why this happened to his children in such a personal way! Plus the DRF (at least to my knowledge) does not have such a king-given law about who is and who isn't a HRH Prince/ess but it is the gift of the souverain to give titles at birth.HM should have made up her mind when Jaochim's first wife was pregnant about to "name" the new baby because it is always easier to gift a title than to take one away.
I also don't see the relevance of the Romans on this. But what I do know is that 33% of Danes disagree with the Queen's decision. For a Queen that has over 80% approval rating, 33% is a big deal.
Poll by B.T. regarding Queen Margrethe's decision
Well, it´s not so much about what number of Danes back the Queen´s decision or do not - they don´t have a say in this anyway...! I think this discussion going on is more an expression of the surprise of many people, how (some might say badly...) this matter was dealt and how openly and "unprofessional" Prince Joachim´s family expressed their anger, sadness and frustration in public.But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.
Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.
But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.
Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.
The "whining campaign" started only minutes after the Queen's decision had been announced when Countess Alexandra's comment was made public in a statement to BT. Also, as pointed out by Tatiana Maria earlier, this is a poll of the the views of the readers of a weekly magazine with a royal angle so the polling base (?) isn't unbiased and wouldn't hold up statistically.But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.
Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.
they are led by Margrethe who now seems pretty ice cold, wouldn't be surprised if she told them family to remain silent in regards to Joachim and Marie.
Honestly, I'd love a Danish journalist to ask either the Queen, Fred or Mary why they didn't deal with this face to face. That's the cruelest part of it.
It seems to me that if Joachim and family would have not whined in public about the Queen's changes, the media would not have caused this huge uproar and just went along with the law changes. They are all still quite privileged members of the royal family. Will they all start writing books now about how they have been mistreated all their lives? Joachim maybe has a bit of the "spare position" jealousy, which I am sure is a bit of an ego slam, same as Andrew and Harry. Exactly what great changes will these titles regrading make to the children's everyday lives. Do they lose private protection or jobs and tax money? As an American, I am just curious.