New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Prinsara]

I sincerely hope Athena has dozens of copies of the book A Little Princess, if she didn't own one by now.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]

And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?

[....]

​

In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.

A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.

 

[FattenedUpMonarchy]

I think if I were in the shoes of the 4 grandchildren it would be difficult not to take it personally initially. It will feel like a public rebuke and the two older ones in particular will be second-guessing if this has been brought about or expedited by something they have done. Had someone given them the courtesy of explaining the thinking behind why monarchies are slimming down it might have been easier to swallow, though even then part of it is that they aren't being trusted to represent the Royal Family.

But they will get over it, and they will get over it more quickly if their parents stop testing the limits of the public's sympathy with their comments to the press.

 

[Kataryn]

Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.

Considering all the points that have been made before in understanding Joachim's hurt, reading what you said,Duke, sounds like you think Joachim and his family are owned by his mother's family and as such, he must be her slave and just obey in public. Not talking about his hurt with anyone outside, even on knowing that he won't find understanding by the rest of the family, That would happen in an ideal world but the Sussexes in the UK have shown us that the Royal slave (that is: the former spare) can go away, treat his family just like a family when it comes to burying his grandmother, but otherwise stay away from it because he knows exactly that it's not just the family but the courtiers, employees and servants around them who can make a life insufferable. And it's only the Royal's place to decide when enough is enough and not the respective monarch as Head of the family/House.



Joachim seem to have obeyed his whole life. He became a military man, then a farmer and is now in the military again in Paris - probably the best place in a foreign country for him and his wife and kids, as he is half-French and Marie fully, so their kids are 3/4 French, so it should even work for a longer time. So I don't understand why this happened to his children in such a personal way! Plus the DRF (at least to my knowledge) does not have such a king-given law about who is and who isn't a HRH Prince/ess but it is the gift of the souverain to give titles at birth.HM should have made up her mind when Jaochim's first wife was pregnant about to "name" the new baby because it is always easier to gift a title than to take one away.

 

[Mbruno]

If you go to User CP and your thread subscription options it should let you change your notifications.

Juan Carlos survived on decades and decades of good will. El rey campechano couldn't have been more different than Daisy in knowing how to handle people.

And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?

He left it to Felipe.

I think he meant that Juan Carlos took the title of HRH Infante/Infanta from children of Infantes/Infantas, keeping it only for the children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias.


However, that was done in Spain by a Royal Decree that was pre-approved in the Council of Minister on the proposal of the Minister of Justice.

A propuesta del Ministro de Justicia, previa deliberación del Consejo de Ministros en su reunión del día 6 de noviembre de 1987,
DISPONGO:

In other words, it was a decision of the Spanish government. That is in accordance with the Spanish constitution, which says that the King merely issues the decrees approved by the Council of Ministers. Since the decree affected the titles of his family, I imagine that the King was consulted and was probably in agreement, but ultimately the government is responsible.


I don't know how it works in Denmark, which is what I asked before, but it is unclear to what extent a decision on titles is a personal decision of the Queen, or if the government is involved, or, in this particular case, even if the proposed change was suggested by the government to begin with.

 

[wartenberg7]

Oh my god what is so difficult about saying 'no comment'. J&M really have to get their side of the story out there, haven't they. They should have kept their mouths shut alltogether, from the beginning. Instead they are turning this whole issue into a soap opera what will not change the fact that the titles are gone, get over it and move on, at least in public.

I agree with you. The "Dianafication" within monarchies becomes more and more popular... Gosh, how much I miss these "stiff upper lip" times...!

 

[Kataryn]

In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.

A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.

Maybe, but though traditionally the heir to the Spanish throne carried these other titles it was a new State without a monarchy and he was at least given the title of a Prince of Spain. It's not as if he had ruled in Asturias before! And it reminded him that the government would always be the one to finally decide. Not that he cared much, as we know now.

 

[Stefan]

I think he meant that Juan Carlos took the title of HRH Infante/Infanta from children of Infantes/Infantas, keeping it only for the children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias.


However, that was done in Spain by a Royal Decree that was pre-approved in the Council of Minister on the proposal of the Minister of Justice.

But there was nobody affected so he took not away the Title from living persons but only limited it for the fugture.

 

[Alison H]

I agree with you. The "Dianafication" within monarchies becomes more and more popular... Gosh, how much I miss these "stiff upper lip" times...!

I do too. Criticising other Royal Family members in the media, whichever country is involved, never ends well.

 

[Skippy]

Joachim's reaction reminds me of Princess Fiona from Shrek. "Tell him that if he wants to rescue me properly, I'll be waiting for him right here!"
AKA "Tell my mother that if she wants to take my children's titles away properly, I'll be waiting for her right here."
Only Joachim won't sit on a boulder

 

[Toledo]

If you go to User CP and your thread subscription options it should let you change your notifications.

Juan Carlos survived on decades and decades of good will. El rey campechano couldn't have been more different than Daisy in knowing how to handle people.

And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?

He left it to Felipe.

​

Thank you!!! I'll do that, the email alerts are flooding my inbox by the hour.

Re King Juan and his cousin Queen Daisy, one article I read in El Pais was how he ruined his legacy as champion of democracies because of his well-known philandering came to light out in the open during the Bostana scandal. His humiliation of Queen MII/Daisy's cousin, Queen Sofia, was the turning point on his legacy. It all went downhill from there on.

I'm happy we have Felipe, and Letizia by his side, in charge now until a Queen Leonor takes over. I hope in her times, that due to my age (61) I might not see, she is as loved and Queen Elizabeth II was by everyone.

 

[Marengo]

And on that note, let's return to the topic of this thread, which is not King Juan Carlos in Botswana but the titles in the Danish Royal Family.

 

[Toledo]

(..)
Articles today in the USA on the matter from 4 hrs. ago:

New York Post Denmark’s Prince Nikolai ‘shocked, confused’ to be stripped of royal title by Queen Margrethe

From Pakistan News Source Bol News King Charles watches Danish royal family with ‘great interest’

Queen MII even made it to USA Forbes Magazine - the article has a listen in audio option right above her picture

Cutting Back Monarchies Is All The Rage: How Danish Queen Margarethe Stripped Four Grandchildren Of Royal Status

 

[Winnie]

Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.

It seems to me that if Joachim and family would have not whined in public about the Queen's changes, the media would not have caused this huge uproar and just went along with the law changes. They are all still quite privileged members of the royal family. Will they all start writing books now about how they have been mistreated all their lives? Joachim maybe has a bit of the "spare position" jealousy, which I am sure is a bit of an ego slam, same as Andrew and Harry. Exactly what great changes will these titles regrading make to the children's everyday lives. Do they lose private protection or jobs and tax money? As an American, I am just curious.

 

[Izzie]

Well...BT has now dragged Mary's work into it
https://www.bt.dk/royale/peter-ingemann-i-skarp-kritik-af-kongehuset-det-er-en-katastrofe

Mary is already getting some less than favorable comments on the DRF FB posts from her event and on a couple of other posts....not to mention QMII is getting comments also on posts ranging from those that basically think she's done sort of infallible deity to those really upset and downright angry with what she's done.

I knew that at the end of the day Mary and Frederik would end up holding this huge bag of turds. They way QMII handled this and continues to handle this has really screwed over M&F. But sure she took one for the team. Thanks Daisy. I'm sure she's going to just sit having and let now Frederik, Mary AND Mary's work get maligned..because..hold on...let me check....she is THE almighty Queen of the longest reign....she shall not demean herself with dealing with these pesky mortal consequences, fallout and collateral damage of HER own actions and mishandling of same. Must be nice to sit on that perch and watch with a wave and smile as Rome burns. I wonder if she has a fiddle too.

 

[Somebody]

I am not sure why everyone is assuming a priori that Nikolai would lose his title if he married his Danish girlfriend. It is true that marriages in the past of Danish princes to Danish brides were denied consent, but that was more because they were expected to marry equally and, to do that, unless they married their own Danish cousins, they necessarily had to marry a foreign princess. There is only one Royal House in Denmark, and marriage to any Danish subject who was not a member of the Royal House, even someone from the nobility, would be unequal.

It is also true that Joachim and Frederik married foreign women, but, now that the requeriment of equal marriages is no longer enforced, we can't automatically assume that someone as low as Nikolai in the order of succession would be denied consent to marry if he wanted to marry a Dane. In fact, if he asked for consent in King Frederik X's reign, I would be very surprised if Frederik denied it.

It was Alexandra who indicated that that they were to loose rheir title upon marriage, so the logical reasoning is that Margrethe won't fornally approve so thry autimatically loose the title. Of course, that doesn't mean she doesn't approve of the children' choices of bride and groom - as she doesn't know yet whom they will marry.

 

[Muhler]

Well...BT has now dragged Mary's work into it
https://www.bt.dk/royale/peter-ingemann-i-skarp-kritik-af-kongehuset-det-er-en-katastrofe

Mary is already getting some less than favorable comments on the DRF FB posts from her event and on a couple of other posts....not to mention QMII is getting comments also on posts ranging from those that basically think she's done sort of infallible deity to those really upset and downright angry with what she's done.

I knew that at the end of the day Mary and Frederik would end up holding this huge bag of turds. They way QMII handled this and continues to handle this has really screwed over M&F. But sure she took one for the team. Thanks Daisy. I'm sure she's going to just sit having and let now Frederik, Mary AND Mary's work get maligned..because..hold on...let me check....she is THE almighty Queen of the longest reign....she shall not demean herself with dealing with these pesky mortal consequences, fallout and collateral damage of HER own actions and mishandling of same. Must be nice to sit on that perch and watch with a wave and smile as Rome burns. I wonder if she has a fiddle too.

Two things in this one:

Peter Ingemann, while a likable person, is among the multitude of people the papers call to comment on this. Soon they'll ask the deer in the parks for an opinion as well.
And like most people who is asked, he doesn't know one hoot more than we do, nor does he know more about the DRF than we do.
He is however right in the communication of this to the public having been a disaster. - You don't need to a journalist and TV-host to realize that though.
There are unknown tribes in hitherto unexplored jungles, who will instantly say that as well.

 

[Somebody]

I'm not at all opposed to slimming down the DRF if that is what the Danish citizenry want. It's their monarchy after all, and I definitely approve of keeping standards as far as how members of the DRF portray themselves personally and professionally. My objection to this entire exercise was how poorly it was handled and I also don't understand why some people think that Joachim and his family shouldn't be upset about it.

I don't think anyone has stated that their feelings are irrelevant, they main issue is with how they went to the press with it instead of to the person who made the decision, i.e., their (grand)mother.

If we are to believe Joachim's statement, and I have no reason not to, this was meant to be a proposal for the child's 25th birthday, and one that wasn't discussed with him further until he was told (not by his mother or brother) that it was taking effect immediately. In essence, his children were given five days notice that their very names were about to be stripped from them. I wonder how we would feel if one day we were told that our names from birth were no longer ours, and oh by the way, you can't be upset about it.

According to the court's spokesperson there were different proposals floating around in the last few months. So, that doesn't sound as if there was no communication in between. And as others stated, Joachim was asked, and granted, the opportunity to give his input. Whether he used that opportunity (wisely) or not and if so, whether his suggestions were incorporated in the final decision, we don't know. But we do know that he didn't tell his children about it until about a week ago...

See also Archduchess Zelia's post below.

Pardon me for repeating myself here but going off of Joachim's own statement, it is not really true that QMII's side went directly from the May proposal to the 5 days notice. Joachim himself says that he asked for respite after the May proposal: "I asked for time to consider [the proposal] and to return with my feedback. They would take note of that." He just doesn't elaborate on whether he ever returned his feedback but according to Joachim's own timeline, the ball was left in his court after 5 May.

I think removing the titles retroactively is nonsensical and I understand why it doesn't make sense to Joachim's side either but if this is a case of Joachim having gone 5+ months without returning this feedback, I don't think it's unreasonable for QMII's side to eventually put their foot down (although there's no excuse for QMII not informing him herself).

Because based on their respective comments, the act of removing of the titles is clearly the main issue for first Alexandra, then Joachim and now Marie. Only Nikolai emphasises the handling in his comment.
(...)

 

[Erin9]

I do too. Criticising other Royal Family members in the media, whichever country is involved, never ends well.

True. They do need to stop. The more they talk- the more they’ll lose whatever public sympathy they have.

I do sympathize with them. I will say: I think it’s harder to remain stoic, quiet, dignified when your kids are involved and upset. So- I’ll give them that. However- quietly moving forward is in everyone’s best interests now. Nothing will change regarding the titles.

Another poster likened this to being demoted and how- of course- no one likes that. (Particularly when it involves kids who have done nothing wrong.) I hadn’t thought of that word specifically- but that does make me see this situation a bit differently.

 

[RoyalOpinions]

I heavily disagree with the decision to REMOVE titles. Once you've given them, let them remain but maybe their children shouldn't get titles. I think Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have every right to be upset. The monarch is small in Denmark anyway, I can't for the love of me understand taking titles away from the grandchildren of a Queen or future King.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I heavily disagree with the decision to REMOVE titles. Once you've given them, let them remain but maybe their children shouldn't get titles. I think Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have every right to be upset. The monarch is small in Denmark anyway, I can't for the love of me understand taking titles away from the grandchildren of a Queen or future King.

Try to see it more practically: these grandchildren of Queen Margrethe, these nephews and nieces of future King Frederik, these cousins and cousines of future King Christian will never have any role in the Royal House of Denmark

Therefore it was seen as desirable not to have persons walking around - for probably 80 more years to go- with a title of said Royal House.

As the Romans already said it two Centuries ago - Imperare est Inspicere (in futurum), meaning: Governing is Foreseeing. Back then, when Prince Joachim's eldest child was born, his brother Crown Prince Frederik was still unmarried.

Now the Crown Prince has plenty of children, the situation has changed, will change again when he his King, will change once again when his son is King. The four children of Prince Joachim will move to the outmost periphery of the monarchy until in 50 years time, in 2072, no one knows why they are Princes and Princesses of Denmark.

By every rationale this is a wise decision and with the hereditary title Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat they belong to the aristocracy for possibly many generations to go.

 

[theroyalfly]

In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.

A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.

First and foremost, I don't see the relevance of Juan Carlos on this. That was a different time in Spain and we all know that.

Try to see it more practically: these grandchildren of Queen Margrethe, these nephews and nieces of future King Frederik, these cousins and cousines of future King Christian will never have any role in the Royal House of Denmark.

Therefore it was seen as desirable not to have persons walking around - for probably 80 more years to go- with the title Prince (Princess) of Denmark.

As the Romans already said it two Centuries ago - Imperare est Inspicere (in futurum), meaning: Governing is Foreseeing. Back then, when Prince Joachim's eldest child was born, his brother Crown Prince Frederik was still unmarried.

Now the Crown Prince has plenty of children, the situation has changed, will change again when he his King, will change once again when his son is King. The four children of Prince Joachim will move to the outmost periphery of the monarchy until in 50 years time, in 2072, no one knows why they are Princes and Princesses of Denmark.

By every rationale this is a wise decision and with the hereditary title Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat they belong to the aristocracy for possibly many generations to go.

I also don't see the relevance of the Romans on this. But what I do know is that 33% of Danes disagree with the Queen's decision. For a Queen that has over 80% approval rating, 33% is a big deal.

Poll by B.T. regarding Queen Margrethe's decision

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Considering all the points that have been made before in understanding Joachim's hurt, reading what you said,Duke, sounds like you think Joachim and his family are owned by his mother's family and as such, he must be her slave and just obey in public. Not talking about his hurt with anyone outside, even on knowing that he won't find understanding by the rest of the family, That would happen in an ideal world but the Sussexes in the UK have shown us that the Royal slave (that is: the former spare) can go away, treat his family just like a family when it comes to burying his grandmother, but otherwise stay away from it because he knows exactly that it's not just the family but the courtiers, employees and servants around them who can make a life insufferable. And it's only the Royal's place to decide when enough is enough and not the respective monarch as Head of the family/House.

Well, Joachim gets an apanage from the Danish taxpayer, if he is unhappy, he could have left but with the knowledge that he has to pay for his own lifestyle and the lifestyle of his family.
Its always easy to say he's a slave, but if he is, he is a very well paid and privileged slave. All this is complaining on a very high level from somebody who used to be important for the institution but not anymore. Joachim still is super privileged and that comes at a price.

Joachim seem to have obeyed his whole life. He became a military man, then a farmer and is now in the military again in Paris - probably the best place in a foreign country for him and his wife and kids, as he is half-French and Marie fully, so their kids are 3/4 French, so it should even work for a longer time. So I don't understand why this happened to his children in such a personal way! Plus the DRF (at least to my knowledge) does not have such a king-given law about who is and who isn't a HRH Prince/ess but it is the gift of the souverain to give titles at birth.HM should have made up her mind when Jaochim's first wife was pregnant about to "name" the new baby because it is always easier to gift a title than to take one away.

Joachim's position was very different then with Frederik unmarried and Joachim's children possibly on the Danish throne one day. Adding to that, the perception of monarchy and entitlement has changed since then, massively.

 

[kalnel]

I also don't see the relevance of the Romans on this. But what I do know is that 33% of Danes disagree with the Queen's decision. For a Queen that has over 80% approval rating, 33% is a big deal.

Poll by B.T. regarding Queen Margrethe's decision

But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.

Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.

 

[wartenberg7]

But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.

Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.

Well, it´s not so much about what number of Danes back the Queen´s decision or do not - they don´t have a say in this anyway...! I think this discussion going on is more an expression of the surprise of many people, how (some might say badly...) this matter was dealt and how openly and "unprofessional" Prince Joachim´s family expressed their anger, sadness and frustration in public.

 

[theroyalfly]

But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.

Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.

Not for a Queen who enjoys 80% approval rating though. This issue has garnered more attention than her own Golden Jubilee which is sad and depressing.

Correction, Benedikte and Mary have spoken to the press too. Both sides are are in the wrong here.

 

[JR76]

But 55% back the decision and 12% don't care. So, 67% of people in this poll are fine with it.

Plus, that poll opened back on September 30, before the whining campaign began. I suspect it would skew even more in favor of the decision today.

The "whining campaign" started only minutes after the Queen's decision had been announced when Countess Alexandra's comment was made public in a statement to BT. Also, as pointed out by Tatiana Maria earlier, this is a poll of the the views of the readers of a weekly magazine with a royal angle so the polling base (?) isn't unbiased and wouldn't hold up statistically.

 

[ppetrica]

they are led by Margrethe who now seems pretty ice cold, wouldn't be surprised if she told them family to remain silent in regards to Joachim and Marie.

Honestly, I'd love a Danish journalist to ask either the Queen, Fred or Mary why they didn't deal with this face to face. That's the cruelest part of it.

And what makes you think that Margrethe didn't deal with this face to face?
How do you know that Joachim, Marie and others from their family are telling 100% absolute truth?

Remember Harry and Meghan's Oprah interview?
Majority of their claims turned out not to be correct at all.

So how do you know that Joachim and his family aren't describing the events in such a way that suits them best?
After all, instead of dealing with it inside the family, first thing they do is run out and moan to the press.
They obviously want to convice the public that their version of truth is the actual and only version and make the entire country turn their back on the Queen.
This strategy worked quite well with the Sussexes knowing that public soap operas aren't the way the monarchs communicate.

Remember the late prince Henrik and his hurt feeling for not being named king. The Queen never commented on that in public.
I believe this is the reason behind Joachim's actions - he is certain the Queen won't argue with him in public via media.
So he can tell to the public what ever he wants.

 

[camelot23ca]

It seems to me that if Joachim and family would have not whined in public about the Queen's changes, the media would not have caused this huge uproar and just went along with the law changes. They are all still quite privileged members of the royal family. Will they all start writing books now about how they have been mistreated all their lives? Joachim maybe has a bit of the "spare position" jealousy, which I am sure is a bit of an ego slam, same as Andrew and Harry. Exactly what great changes will these titles regrading make to the children's everyday lives. Do they lose private protection or jobs and tax money? As an American, I am just curious.

I think you’re right about possible jealousy or an ego slam, first because Joachim has always seemed to be very invested in his status as a member of the DRF, and second because Joachim and Alexandra (and baby Nikolai) were very high profile and well liked members of the royal family, and certainly did their part in giving the institution a boost at a time when Frederik still hadn’t really come into his own. Royal families are inherently heartless that way, in that it didn’t matter how well Joachim and his family performed when they were needed; once Frederik married and had children there was nowhere for his brother to go but down.

On the other hand, his mother and the government certainly saw to it that Joachim and his branch of the family were treated generously, with Joachim’s ongoing apanage, the terms of Alexandra’s divorce settlement, and so on. He got a very soft landing and was treated much more delicately than some of his peers in other royal families.

Situations like this are why I think it’s best for the remaining European monarchies to limit royal styles and titles as much as possible, and to prepare their younger children for adult lives as private citizens, with their own careers and no possibility of titles for their own children. Because, while I don’t agree with Joachim going public the way he has, I understand where his anger and hurt is coming from. Going from important to not is never fun - his life may have been easier if he’d known from birth he’d never be (officially) important.

As to whether the children have lost much, I would say no. There’s a difference between public status and private social prestige. To use an example from another RF, does anyone think Peter and Zara Philips have lived less privileged lives than Beatrice and Eugenie of York, in any way that really matters? Or that Countess Athena will miss out on opportunities that Princess Athena would have had with regard to education, career opportunities, social connections, etc? Especially in a small country like Denmark, Joachim’s children will remain part of the elite circles they’ve known since birth, and it’s not like everyone is going to suddenly forget they’re the Queen’s grandchildren and future King’s nephews and niece.

 

[Muhler]

As for the BT poll, in all fairness it has to be said that the BT coverage so far has been very pro-Joachim/Alexandra.

For a more balanced reader-poll I suggest Dr.dk or tv2.dk. The (in principle) republican paper Politiken.dk or the (more commerce oriented) newspaper Jyllandsposten.dk - if any of these will make and publish a reader-poll.