New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Izzie]

Yes, he maintains that he is still an active royal - who right now happens to be working for his country in France.
- Which I happen to agree with. Queen and country called for him to serve in France - for a period. He didn't leave the DRF.

I assume that applies to Marie as well as she also works for the Danish Embassy and has quite a number of events for her patronages either done from Paris or in DK and she recently did a humanitarian trip to Cambodia connected to one of her patronages.

 

[kimebear]

I sure understand why they are upset by the way this was handled.
I do however believe it's counter-productive of them to go public.

It won't restore the titles. It won't help mend things within the DRF.
And in the end they will eventually lose public sympathy.

- If you feel you must, you can in fact express your displeasure and hurt feelings in a more dignified way by not saying you feel hurt and is angry.
Q: How do you feel about your children being stripped of their titles?
- Her Majesty has made a decision and of course we abide by it.
Q: But does it hurt you? Are you sad? Upset?
- A decision has been made. It is of course a major change very sudden change for our children, but that's how it is and now it's time to look forward.

You see what I mean? A more dignified/subdued response, but no one should be the least bit in doubt about what you really mean!

I think that Joachim, Marie and Alexandra are upset because this affects their children. It's quite different when something upsets your kids than when it just upsets you as the parent. Being dignified can be difficult when your little girl asks you why Grandma says she can't be a princess anymore like her cousins.

 

[Muhler]

I assume that applies to Marie as well as she also works for the Danish Embassy and has quite a number of events for her patronages either done from Paris or in DK and she recently did a humanitarian trip to Cambodia connected to one of her patronages.

Oh yes. But in contrast to Mary (and PH) she doesn't get a personal apanage. She is paid over Joachim's apanage.

I think that Joachim, Marie and Alexandra are upset because this affects their children. It's quite different when something upsets your kids than when it just upsets you as the parent. Being dignified can be difficult when your little girl asks you why Grandma says she can't be a princess anymore like her cousins.

Absolutely!
Go for my children and I go for your throat. That still applies even though both of mine are adults now.

 

[kimebear]

You would also be on 24/7/365 all your life from the moment you leave the palace.
And so would all your friends and not least anyone of the opposite sex (and nowadays the same sex as well) you happen to associate. Every single mistake you make will end up on the front page. Your children will be public interests.
There are strict limits what you can get away with saying and do.

So while being royals have perks and privileges, it's not that enviable.
And if you screw up, you may end up being an ex-royal.

Yet all this still applies to Nikolai and Felix, who, if they do anything wrong, will still be viewed as a member of the DRF, just without having the other "perks" that go along with it.


The Queen might say she did if for their own good, but that's not how it's going to work in reality. They are still her grandchildren, and will be viewed as such if they put one toe out of line.

Oh yes. But in contrast to Mary (and PH) she doesn't get a personal apanage. She is paid over Joachim's apanage.



Absolutely!
Go for my children and I go for your throat. That still applies even though both of mine are adults now.

Haha! Same! No matter how old they get, no one will protect them more fiercely than I would

 

[KristehH]

That is a big deal.

The majority, including myself, is of the opinion that it is necessary to keep the number of titled royals down.
In a country of only 5.8 million we can't have too many royals running around, before it deflates the myth of royals being something special.

And royals have limits to what they can do, who they can work for, who they can associate. If they make a wrong step, it reflects in the DRF as a whole instead of them as individuals.
It is also a major no go to profit from the royal status. The DRF cracks down hard on anyone who does that, including foreign businesses and persons.

As for the taxpayer issue. That was brought up when Joachim became an attache in France. To put it simple: No work for the DRF = No apanage. And by logic extension no title.

- So IMO it is a correct move to strip Joachim's children of their titles.
Nikolai and Felix got their titles before Frederik married Mary, so at the time Nikolai was the future heir.

The way it was executed however has been nothing short of terrible.

And I simply cannot understand why QMII chose to sack Joachim's children, with three months notice.
Something must have happened for her to make that decision. What?

And BTW congratulations on your first posts.

Thanks for the welcome, Muhler. I have enjoyed reading your thoughtful, detailed posts for a long time and particularly how you share bits of Danish culture and history. ?

I do understand that many people support having fewer titled royals, but I just feel that taking titles away retroactively is wrong, especially when these four young people have had their titles for years now and they are not-and never will receive appanages.

I do hope you're right about Athena's school situation and more a matter of a child being curious and not bullying.

 

[Muhler]

Yet all this still applies to Nikolai and Felix, who, if they do anything wrong, will still be viewed as a member of the DRF, just without having the other "perks" that go along with it.


The Queen might say she did if for their own good, but that's not how it's going to work in reality. They are still her grandchildren, and will be viewed as such if they put one toe out of line.

In say five years they are the king's nephews and niece. - Further away.
And while still being the king's nephews and niece in 30 years - they will be even further away in the public mind.
If one of them, or their spouse, even children, screw up, it's advisable to be able to say: They are relatives but not DRF members.
The DRF in this context meaning active members and their children.

 

[FigTree]

I can certainly see the boys using their titles for their modelling work might have brought into focus the idea "what are we going to do with them long term" but if it really was all down to that I would hope the family aren't so dysfunctional (though starting to think they certainly are) that Margrethe would have left it all this time and has taken drastic action now vs speaking to Joachim or the boys and asking them not to use the titles in their work. It would also seem hugely unfair on the younger two to take titles away for what the eldest two have done especially as there is no saying Marie agrees with it and would allow her two to do the same.

Thinking it through more I wonder if they should have done what I've suggested before the Brits should do - created a "Royal House" like the Dutch system to signify who is a "working member of the Royal Family" vs members of the Queen's family. The Swedish RF have done this also. It is IMO a good stop gap measure that would allow a clear distinction between "official" royals and titled members of the Queen's family. As I see it Margrethe could have announced:

-the creation of a royal house to signify members of the Royal Family who represent Denmark officially and support the sovereign in undertaking their duties and are the only ones permitted to any appanages or public funding
-for now it consists of HM, The Crown Prince and Crown Princess, Christian (by birth right), Benedikte, Joachim & Marie
-all others are members of the Royal Family or the Queen's family who do not undertake official duties are are free to pursue their own careers and lives outside the Royal Court and Royal House
-the Sovereign retains the right to add or remove people from the Royal House as situations demand
-the Crown Prince / Princess' children may be added to the Royal House when they become adults or stay as part of the Royal Family only, with their titles as personal to them only
-going forward the titles held by Joachim's children will be personal titles held only by them for their lifetime and not passed to children or spouses (I think she could possibly even have got away with taking the HH style as well)
-in future only the children of the sovereign and Crown Prince will have HRH / Prince / Princess titles all others will be (insert made up French title here)

Ended by saying how this is to ensure a monarchy fit for the future and to alleviate the burden from the other members of the Queen's family who all, of course, remain dearly loved family to the Queen.

They could have announced it during her Jubilee with statements from Fred and Joachim agreeing how they support it. Now let's all go stand on a balcony and show a united front, aren't we amazing and all that.

Like the way the Swedish dealt with it, this possibility shows they could have got to Margrethe's aim in different, more upbeat and less cruel seeming ways. One of the biggest issue with what Margrethe has done IMO is she has tried to keep it all a "business" decision, hence I suspect getting the Lord Chamberlain to tell Joachim, in an attempt to make clear this is the CEO of Royal Family Inc acting not mother/grandmother Daisy. The problem is what she has announced is purely personal as there is no mention of it being the same in the future. Had it been worded along the lines as above or even just that all younger children's children would have no titles going forward it would seem less personal IMO

I think realistically they probably tried to so all that. Make it one of those public relations triumph and probably meant it around the 50th except Joachim wasn’t playing ball and was probably disrupting it. Think it it was happening anyway.

 

[Mbruno]

I'm not sure what you would need to constitute a lavish lifestyle. If I had a job that I couldn't be fired from, that allowed me to work in a limited capacity, paid for a full staff to attend me and covered all the expenses of my several homes, I would consider that very lavish indeed.


However, I'm not sure why you're comparing apples to oranges by using the US presidency in relation to monarchies. As you pointed out yourself, the President of the USA can be fired, unlike the Queen and DRF

The point Duc et Pair made is that the persons who answer for the Queen's actions, e.g. the prime minister, can be fired. A simple vote of no confidence in the Parliament is sufficient, unlike the POTUS, who can be fired only every 4 years unless he commits a crime, is impeached by the House of Representatives, and convicted by 2/3 of the Senate, which BTW never happened in US history.

The other point made was, I think, that the Queen and the Royal House cost less to the Danish taxpayers than the President costs to the US taxpayer, but that is not really a fair comparison as the US is a much bigger country and the Office of the President of the United States is a much bigger organization than the Danish Royal Household. In any case, the Danish monarchy, even by European standards, is relatively cheap.

 

[kimebear]

In say five years they are the king's nephews and niece. - Further away.
And while still being the king's nephews and niece in 30 years - they will be even further away in the public mind.
If one of them, or their spouse, even children, screw up, it's advisable to be able to say: They are relatives but not DRF members.
The DRF in this context meaning active members and their children.

Which is why it would have been more diplomatic to limit titles going forward rather than taking them away from ones who already have them.


Make an announcement that titles will go to the children of the monarch and children of the heir. It's easy, it's clean and no one is singled out.

 

[camelot23ca]

I wonder about that too. This appears to be a form of communicating since NO ONE is communicating with each other.

This is just mind blowing. And it obviously starts at the top with The Queen herself staffing this out.

It seems sad, odd, and counter productive to behave in this manner- no one talking.

I’m flashing back to a TV show called The West Wing where the president got his staff to do his dirty work for him regarding a job related issue with his wife. Didn’t work out well for him either. Fictional show- but accurate in how people feel about this sort of thing.

I think it’s clear the Queen and her advisors could have handled this better, but right now we have only one side of the story, and that’s the only side we’re likely to get, at least in this amount of detail. Queen Margrethe isn’t in the position to be able to respond to everything her son, his wife, his ex and her grandson have said over the past several days. As the Queen she can’t get dragged into publicly debating a family spat. As a mother, she’s not likely to say she thinks her son’s version of events is untrue (it’s too bad “recollections may vary” is already taken because I imagine it’s a great phrase to sum up what’s happening here).

Who knows how the family is used to communicating? There’s been tension at least between Joachim and his mother for quite awhile now. Maybe Margrethe hasn’t tried to talk to Joachim since the announcement because he hasn’t been receptive in the past when she has reached out? Or maybe she did try to speak with him while he was back in Denmark, he didn’t like what she had to say, wouldn’t engage with her at the time, but is now choosing to tell the public there’s been no communication.

I don’t feel sympathy for any of the adults involved. I do feel bad for the children, and if it’s true Queen Margrethe didn’t insist on speaking to her grandchildren before this became public, that was very poorly done and I hope she makes a genuine effort to make amends.

 

[KristehH]

Queen Margrethe is not only mother and grandmother, she is also Queen. And because of that Joachim and his first spouse received (and receive) a lavish annual apanage from the taxpayer, could live on their own splendid estate (Shackenborg), holidaying in idyllic Château de Caïx and being appointed in a fancy post at the Danish Embassy in Paris ("coincidentally" Marie's homeland) . All this was only possible because Margrethe is the Queen.

But now Margrethe should suddenly not act as Queen but as "a mother and grandmother". Spare me the hypocrisy...

Yes, I specifically said that Margrethe is queen and within her rights, did I not?

She is a mother and a grandmother as well as a queen, is she not?

Being able to negotiate, find compromises, and attempt to keep various parties as satisfied as possible are good diplomatic skills for a monarch as well for anyone else.

Has Joachim made a full-time career of serving crown and country? Working royals normally do receive generous benefits.

Just because a person is a monarch, and even acting within their rights, does not mean they are immune from criticism. People have differing opinions on stripping away the kids' titles, and we all have the right to say what we think and why. But many people do seem to think that Margrethe could have handled this situation better, even if they agree with taking the titles.

Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra may not be handling it in the best way, but neither did Margrethe herself.

 

[kimebear]

The point Duc et Pair made is that the persons who answer for the Queen's actions, e.g. the prime minister, can be fired. A simple vote of no confidence in the Parliament is sufficient, unlike the POTUS, who can be fired only every 4 years unless he commits a crime, is impeached by the House of Representatives, and convicted by 2/3 of the Senate, which BTW never happened in US history.

The other point made was, I think, that the Queen and the Royal House cost less to the Danish taxpayers than the President costs to the US taxpayer, but that is not really a fair comparison as the US is a much bigger country and the Office of the President of the United States is a much bigger organization than the Danish Royal Household. In any case, the Danish monarchy, even by European standards, is relatively cheap.

I do understand the argument, which is why I made my point. If a monarch takes the position that they don't have to answer for their actions, because an elected official will in their stead, then they run the risk (to the official) of making unpopular decisions which might cost that official their job in the next election. Do that often enough, and your citizens will start to think of their royal family as more of a burden than an asset.



If QM is looking to QEII as an example on how to run a royal house, the first thing she should have learned was that QEII always kept public perception in mind with every word she said and every move she ever made.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I am not sure why everyone is assuming a priori that Nikolai would lose his title if he married his Danish girlfriend. It is true that marriages in the past of Danish princes to Danish brides were denied consent, but that was more because they were expected to marry equally and, to do that, unless they married their own Danish cousins, they necessarily had to marry a foreign princess. There is only one Royal House in Denmark, and marriage to any Danish subject who was not a member of the Royal House, even someone from the nobility, would be unequal.

It is also true that Joachim and Frederik married foreign women, but, now that the requeriment of equal marriages is no longer enforced, we can't automatically assume that someone as low as Nikolai in the order of succession would be denied consent to marry if he wanted to marry a Dane. In fact, if he asked for consent in King Frederik X's reign, I would be very surprised if Frederik denied it.

The press secretary to Countess Alexandra said he and his siblings would lose their royal titles on marriage in her interview with CNN (shared earlier by Iolanthe):

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europe/denmark-queen-grandchildren-scli-intl/index.html

In a telephone conversation with CNN, Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen, press secretary to Countess Alexandra, said the countess was “very sad and in shock.

“She can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”
​

I think BT has a running poll in all their articles on the subject if you're interested. Currently stands at 55% in favour of QMII's decision, 33% not in favour and 12% not having an opinion on the matter across 265.128 votes.

I saw somewhere here earlier that 55% of Danes agree with the decision, that is a majority but by Danish RF polling standards it also seems pretty low.

If I understand the original post, the poll is open to anyone visiting BT's website to vote and thus not a representative sample of the public. Of course, social media comments are likely to be even less representative.

I would be interested in seeing the results of a scientifically conducted poll on this question.

Thank you for the feedback!

And when it comes to 1953, this is exactly what I meant. In Denmark changes in the Royal House tend to get personal. This title deprivation mess regarding Joachim's children is now seen by the public as a targeted action, because of Joachim and his family's reaction. In 1953 the situation was the same, precisely because it was so well known that Prince Knud and his sons were unhappy to be demoted. There was no way Queen Margrethe could have avoided the change to be seen as a targeted action against individuals, if Joachim's family absolutely want so see themselves as victims. Back in 1953 media was more interested in personal drama than constitutional principles, and in 2022 it's hardly any different.

Thanks for the response!

I think the situations differ. In 1953, the persons ultimately responsible for the demotion of Knud and Ingolf (namely, the members of the public who voted the referendum proposal through) openly discussed their sentiments that Prince Knud (and for some, Prince Ingolf as well) was unsuitable to be king. (Naturally not every voter, but many of them.) Thus it was the drivers of the demotion who first made their "targeting" public knowledge, regardless of how Knud and Ingolf subsequently reacted.

In 2022, on the other hand, the Queen has made no comment suggesting she is targeting her four grandchildren personally, and even the parents haven't expressly accused her of intentionally doing so.

 

[polyesco]

I think it’s clear the Queen and her advisors could have handled this better, but right now we have only one side of the story, and that’s the only side we’re likely to get, at least in this amount of detail. Queen Margrethe isn’t in the position to be able to respond to everything her son, his wife, his ex and her grandson have said over the past several days. As the Queen she can’t get dragged into publicly debating a family spat. As a mother, she’s not likely to say she thinks her son’s version of events is untrue (it’s too bad “recollections may vary” is already taken because I imagine it’s a great phrase to sum up what’s happening here).

Who knows how the family is used to communicating? There’s been tension at least between Joachim and his mother for quite awhile now. Maybe Margrethe hasn’t tried to talk to Joachim since the announcement because he hasn’t been receptive in the past when she has reached out? Or maybe she did try to speak with him while he was back in Denmark, he didn’t like what she had to say, wouldn’t engage with her at the time, but is now choosing to tell the public there’s been no communication.

I don’t feel sympathy for any of the adults involved. I do feel bad for the children, and if it’s true Queen Margrethe didn’t insist on speaking to her grandchildren before this became public, that was very poorly done and I hope she makes a genuine effort to make amends.

Exactly. Only one side. Their side. They are not going to mention any of their own shortcomings.

 

[BriarRose]

I feel immense sympathy for Joachim's children.

Anyone who watches the news would have advised the Danish Court that this would explode into a media frenzy, because of a recent media frenzy regarding questions about titles and children.

Unless something is about to happen that is quite serious, there was plenty of time to mediate this privately within the family this year, and still make an announcement of the change within a few months. In a few months, this may have also been a minor blip in the press.

At a minimum, the Queen certainly had time to explain the decision personally to her grandchildren. I cannot see how she didn't owe them such. She waited until all four were certainly old enough to understand what is happening. If she wanted to avoid conflict, she should have rescinded the titles when the oldest was a baby.

To punt the children into a media frenzy at this particular time, when the press was obviously going to run with it for other purposes, lacks all sense and feeling. It has completely changed my opinion of the Queen and those that advise her.

The Swedish royals also laid out the best way to do this: work it out internally over time, then release joint statements. I don't think it was necessarily an easy discussion within that family, but they obviously worked through it privately, then presented a united front publicly. Why the Queen didn't follow this plan is a shame, and possibly something she can never set right with her grandchildren.

 

[Mbruno]

The press secretary to Countess Alexandra said he and his siblings would lose their royal titles on marriage in her interview with CNN (shared earlier by Iolanthe):

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europe/denmark-queen-grandchildren-scli-intl/index.html

In a telephone conversation with CNN, Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen, press secretary to Countess Alexandra, said the countess was “very sad and in shock.

“She can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”
​

.

But where was it mentioned by the press secretary that losing his title when getting married is tied to Nikolai marrying his Danish girlfriend, which is what I was questioning?

 

[samitude]

But where was it mentioned by the press secretary that losing his title when getting married is tied to Nikolai marrying his Danish girlfriend, which is what I was questioning?

I thought all Danish royal family members had to marry people outside of Denmark in order to either 1)keep their titles or 2) stay in succession. I'm not sure which one. It may be considered an unwritten rule/expectation. No Danish family/person is going to be considered "above" other ones. That's why the royals marry outside of the country. I think it's neat seeing which country they will choose. Joachim and Frederick when surprising routes for their marriages (at least Joachim's first).

 

[Queen Claude]

I have been trying to keep up with this thread but every time I step away to attend to my pesky real life responsibilities, when I come back there are several more pages to catch up on. I am glad the comment that Joachim's children were going to lose their titles upon marriage was bumped because that was the for me.

So according to Alexandra's spokesperson, who is also authorized to speak on behalf of Joachim and Marie, it was known that Joachim's children were going to lose their titles upon marriage. So, assuming they got married at fairly youngish ages, Joachim's children were going to spend the better part of their lives as His Excellency Count of Monpezat or Her Excellency Countess of Monpezat, and this has been known since when, May 2022? 2008? So if I am understanding correctly, all this expressed "shock", "sadness" "confusion" is really over Margrethe changing the timing and circumstances regarding Joachim's children losing their princely titles. The date stamp for the CNN article was Thursday morning EDT and it's been going on three days and no one has corrected that statement.

But upon further thought, the indicators are that the issue is with Joachim's children losing their princely titles. And if that was the case, was there even a chance that there could be a Sweden type way of handling this matter? Not IMO because there was not going to be any kind of compromise that would be satisfactory.

Yeah I see the point that Margrethe handled it in a cold and callous way. She is probably asleep right now, but I am visualizing that she spent the better part of the day decoupaging whilst taking numerous drags on her cigarettes, while her son, current daughter-in-law, ex-daughter-in-law and their spokespeople are burning up the airwaves. I think that while there are claims that Margrethe has not reached out to her affected grandchildren, there are also tacit admissions that they have not reached out to her either, remember they knew about this 5 days before the announcement, and it seems to me that Joachim et famille spent their energies working with their PR people.

 

[Toledo]

I have been trying to keep up with this thread but every time I step away to attend to my pesky real-life responsibilities, when I come back there are several more pages to catch up on...

I made the mistake of checking a box to get thread alerts by email and now when away I see my phone making sounds every time there's a reply on this on-going subject.

The topic is interesting if you place yourself in terms of a grandmother who is the CEO, but she needs to cut down staff for the next quarter. I like when the dialogue is about the situation and how it affects all parties involved. But when it turns into a "get rid of monarchies!" "They waste taxpayers' money!" I think wow! some choose the wrong place to vent out opinions about other countries political systems.

I grew up under a dictator supported by the greatest democracy in the world. I recall his family used to brag they will stay for a thousand years ruling from El Pardo Palace in Madrid. And then came a King who took charge, eliminated the dictatorship and gave us more freedom of expression than in the World's greatest democracy.

From afar I can tell QMII is a lot like her Spanish cousin, his vintage version. She made the right decision to keep modernizing the institution of the monarchy. Her delivery was awful but as Machiavelli stated the end justifies the means. And seems the end was to protect her Heir from doing this later by her taking the heat now. Right or wrong is done and into the countdown to January 2023.

 

[ronald biver]

I don't think there is or was a problem in the kingdom of the Netherlands when princess Beatrix of the Netherlands was queen, she made the rules and all members of the house of Orange knew where they stand, so there was no problem at all.

 

[noc]

Certainly, it could have been handled differently some say but we are only hearing from one side of the story. It seems the issue stems from the children losing their princely titles and at the end of the day, it is the Queen's will. Similarly, I'm sure both her and Charles understand the need to modernize the monarchy.

 

[Kataryn]

I keep thinking of the legal aspects of HM's decision. It is okay IMHO to let the CEO of a firm rule more or less absolutely but you can always leave and take your qualifikations with you, right? But can a queen take away your "identity", your name or can she just remove the "content" like the style of HH and the belonging to the Royal family? How will a democratic (not in the political sense like in the US, but a court who tries to keep their vote along the line with the European Court for Human Rights) decide if Nicolai as the eldest would call upon it to make a decision whether he can keep the name "Prince of Denmark" without any official recognition from the Royal Household? Like it is in Germany? Does he and his siblings have some rights to keep their name? In Germany the name can only be changed when the person who has used that name wants to change it to another (eg. divorced mother marries again, son wants to take on the name of the stepfather to form a family namewise). How is that in Denmark? And what is the difference in names and titles there? Germany has no titles of nobility anymore and no automatic right to change part of the name when the Head of the House, the "Fuerst" dies and the eldest son inherits the former title. It really depends if the Court of Law responsible sees the need to change the name of the heir from "Prinz" to "Fuerst" or not.

But that is the case when the "Prinz" asks for a namechange. But what if a Danish person wants to keep the name that was given on birth even if the queen decides it is no longer his? Can that be right according to the law? That's the problem with having no surname, just titles of Royality. Did the queen mean when she bestowed the Monpezat-title that her descendants from the marriage with Prince Henrik are now named "Monpezat" as their family name? Or not? And if so, how does the Danish law handle the removal of a title when there is no surname to go back to? Which status has the "surname" in Danish law today?

I'M thinking of poor little princess Athena whose mother Princess Marie told that she has already been bullied in school by other girls asking her if she was the one who is not longer a princess, while her father said she was punished by her grandmother when she was stripped of her title. The main thing for them as parents seem to be that little Henrik and Athena are now in the spotlight and could not be prepared in the right way, so they suffer.
So really, I'M against this method of ridding the Royal House of those unneeded members by showing the whole world that this is what they are: no longer Royals. For the kids of Jaochim this surely means: no longer acknowledged members of the Royal family.

Now Joachim is surely still dependant on his mother for income or job. Let's hope he is not forced to go the Sussex-way and to write his memoir now!
(And did anyone already ask if the cost of security will be lower now?)

 

[Princess Thyra]

Thoughts

I’m another long-time lurker/reader here, who has been revved up enough by this topic to hop in (and just finished all the thread after three days of reading!).

I’m of Danish heritage and so have always followed the DRF (but am no means an expert) and I’ve often held them up as an example of how to do “modern monarchy” and was thus hugely shocked when I saw the title announcement this week. It was so cold, it made the BRF look warm! I know there have been family tensions, but largely, they were handled matter of factly and without too much drama. Even the PH issue of title, which was embarrassing and too open to the public, could be somewhat blamed, in retrospect, on his deteriorating health.

Admitting upfront that I am in the group that believes this was both poorly executed and unnecessary, my crystal ball (which could be totally cloudy and wrong) says that this was possibly an attempt to clear up discussions already had over some time regarding future titles and frustrations with Henrik, and (in agreement with others here) and to do it prior to Frederik becoming King, not just to avoid Fred having to be bad guy, but to avoid a brotherly power struggle that may already be happening which would probably intensify on QM’s death or abdication. This was pushed forward due to her recent thoughts of aging with QM’s recent birthday and Jubilee plus Queen Elizabeth’s death and another COVID scare. Plus, as others have noted, PH is gone so she needn’t be worried about his thoughts on this. Also affecting the timing is recent discussion with Prince Charles et al (all the distant royal relatives gathered) and what would royals discuss? Quite possibly recent public discourse on republican efforts throughout Europe (especially Great Britain) and the Commonwealth countries. (I am thinking too of the recent Danish controversy/upset with F&M’s secret ski lodge in Switzerland.)

But why the announcement now and the effective date on January 1? My crystal ball says, could there be an announcement during the Queen’s annual New Year’s address coming? And one that would make most sense with this piece of title business out of the way. Perhaps an abdication/retirement/regency being announced? I know as I watched Queen Elizabeth over the past year, I thought it a particularly awkward and painful last year of life to be trotted out for what were probably tiring events when so fragile. Would it not have been nicer to enjoy that last year without public expectation? For QM possibly spending her last years making art and relaxing? If she were to announce at the New Year, it would be nice for this to be resolved ahead of time rather than mudding waters for her announcement or for her son’s start.

I could be totally wrong of course but just a thought.

There has been a lot of discussion about whether Joachim had been in discussions between May and now with the Queen and Fred or his own kids, and I would guess he had, but we will never know. Him having discussions with all, and all being surprised by the announcement are not mutually exclusive, especially if the announcement departed significantly from what was discussed. And yes, I could see how QM may have gotten frustrated and decided to put paid to it and rip the band aid off (still not a good public facing look). Some have stated that she can do as she likes, but modern monarchy depends on diplomacy to succeed and this was in no way diplomatic.

I have been surprised by the lack of empathy that some have for J and M. Overall, no one likes to be demoted, especially publicly. A “going forward” would be better and kinder. Diplomacy would have allowed some saving face for them which is where I think their reaction comes from, along with protecting their kids. I work with kids in these pre-teen and teenage years and kids are the biggest gossips of all and can be very mean to each other. I don’t doubt that this seemingly “small” thing seems very big to all the affected grandchildren and I am sure other kids are aware and saying it out loud.

I also think this modern effort to streamline monarchy is a dicey business, and may only hold off republic for so long. Too many or too few titled royals can both lead to making royalty seem less significant.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Communication works both ways.
All we have heard is Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra's version of the events. Of course they are not going to mention their shortcomings. And to an extend they shouldn't. Some things should be discussed behind close doors and kept there.
My sympathies are very low for Joachim and co.

Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Exactly.
And to add, Joachim knew that something was going on latest in May. And when he was told of the decision, you don't need 5 days, even 1 day of notice would have been enough to tell your children, even if you don't agree with the decision. You can rage in private about the way it was done, but not in public.
This is a royal family, and Joachim has been a part of it for over 50 years. He and his wife, ex wife and children should get a grip and move on.

Amen to that!

 

[tihkon2]

There's nothing to suggest that she was careless. It's not her job as queen to keep Joachim and his family happy.

For goodness sake, she's the queen of Denmark. She shouldn't have to run around consoling and explaining herself to her grandchildren.

Joachim has been in the royal house for more than 50 years now. If he doesn't understand how things work -- and can't explain that to his wives and children -- he should walk away and spare them all the whining.

And if she has an attitude like you hope she does, she deserves all the running to the press they can do.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

From what we do know, the May draft was that the children would lose the titles at 25. Joachim says he was presented with the current plan as a fait accompli last week. That is a BIG issue in the wording.

Discussions started in May- no actual decision on exactly what was going to happen and when was reached as I understand it. Fast forward- and Joachim got the 5 days notice of the actual final decision. IDK what- if anything- happened in the intervening time. But no final decision was made in May as I understand it.

Pardon me for repeating myself here but going off of Joachim's own statement, it is not really true that QMII's side went directly from the May proposal to the 5 days notice. Joachim himself says that he asked for respite after the May proposal: "I asked for time to consider [the proposal] and to return with my feedback. They would take note of that." He just doesn't elaborate on whether he ever returned his feedback but according to Joachim's own timeline, the ball was left in his court after 5 May.

I think removing the titles retroactively is nonsensical and I understand why it doesn't make sense to Joachim's side either but if this is a case of Joachim having gone 5+ months without returning this feedback, I don't think it's unreasonable for QMII's side to eventually put their foot down (although there's no excuse for QMII not informing him herself).

I'm not sure why people keep assuming Joachim and family would have had the same reactions however they were treated, rather than the more logical "if this wasn't such a unnecessary sh*tshow, none of this would be happening".

Because based on their respective comments, the act of removing of the titles is clearly the main issue for first Alexandra, then Joachim and now Marie. Only Nikolai emphasises the handling in his comment. The handling comes second to the removal to the parents.

(...) She gets to hide behind her sister and Mary and Frederick while THEY have microphones stuck in their faces...specifically the CP Couple.

Not only has QMII faced the press twice since the announcement, she was also the first to meet the press and even answered questions (albeit not very well) the first time around which is very uncharacteristic for her. The only thing she's hiding from is the phone she should pick up and dial her grandchildren's numbers into.

And here I used to think that DRF is more down to earth than BRF.
Does Christian or Isabelle's classmates also call them "Prince Christian" or "Princess Isabelle"?

I can only speak for Tranegårdsskolen but there the CP children definitely just went by their first names.

 

[Prinsara]

From afar I can tell QMII is a lot like her Spanish cousin, his vintage version. She made the right decision to keep modernizing the institution of the monarchy. Her delivery was awful but as Machiavelli stated the end justifies the means. And seems the end was to protect her Heir from doing this later by her taking the heat now. Right or wrong is done and into the countdown to January 2023.

If you go to User CP and your thread subscription options it should let you change your notifications.

Juan Carlos survived on decades and decades of good will. El rey campechano couldn't have been more different than Daisy in knowing how to handle people.

And then when he had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?

He left it to Felipe.

​

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Some thoughts on yesterday's interview:

J&M are not doing themselves any favours by waddling in it. Not only does it come off unnecessarily tone-deaf to be this emotionally affected about 4 extremely privileged children changing titles in the middle of a recession where an overwhelming amount of people are struggling to pay their bills. And on a personal level, I also find that the more they choose to elaborate, the more I struggle to sympathise with them.

Marie says they "would wish they'd had more time to discuss" the removal which begs the question: what on earth have they spent the past 141 days between Joachim asking for time to give feedback on the 5 May proposal and the 5 days notice doing?

Joachim sneering that "now there's time to prepare, we weren't given that" in reply to the concessions Mary tried to make by saying that they too would evaluate their younger children's titles when time comes. Not only was it completely unnecessary to be scornful but Joachim is also a clever man and he knows perfectly well that you can't compare Isabella, Vincent and Josephine to the positions his children are in. Rather, removing their titles would like removing his titles.

He does, however, make a very good point by pointing out that children have a different world view. And that is exactly why QMII ought to grab her phone and reassure her grandchildren of her love for them.

On the supposed bullying, I'm not entirely sure if, according to Marie, the question "is it you who is no longer a princess?" is an act of bullying? To me, it just seems like an innocent question but I'll assume she's leaving out some context. In any way, if Athena is being bullied, I'd say they should take that up with their school rather than the tabloids.

Marie also mentions the children being "put on display" as a motivation for speaking to the press. That is baffling to me as to the best of my belief and although I sympathise with their need to tell the world they were hurt by QMII's decision, what has escalated the situation is exactly that: their scathing comments to the press.

 

[JR76]

Marie also mentions the children being "put on display" as a motivation for speaking to the press. That is baffling to me as to the best of my belief and although I sympathise with their need to tell the world they were hurt by QMII's decision, what has escalated the situation is exactly that: their scathing comments to the press.

I totally agree. If Clan JAM hadn't gone public with their dissatisfaction about the Queen's decision this wouldn't be more than a footnote today. Even a less dramatic and confrontational comment would have meant that it'd all be over by now. But as we've seen before, Joachim and Marie (both whom I rather like) have no problems with voicing their grievances to the public and then complain about it if there's a backlash.