Diana's Styles and Titles

[magnik]

The Spencer earldom was granted as a personal title "The Earl Spencer", not after a place "Earl of Spencer".

However, a provision of Sarah, Duchess of Marlborough's will was that he should not accept a court or parliamentary position himself but, in 1761, he was created Baron and Viscount Spencer, and four years later, John became the First Earl Spencer. [...] The title Earl Spencer was created in 1765. The subsidiary titles of Lord Spencer are: Viscount Spencer, of Althorp in the County of Northampton (created 1761), Viscount Althorp, of Althorp in the County of Northampton (1765), Viscount Althorp, of Brington in the County of Northampton (1905), and Baron Spencer of Althorp, of Althorp in the County of Northampton (1761).
http://www.e-paranoids.com/e/ea/earl_spencer.html
http://www.althorp.com/SpencerFamily/pgeTheSpencers.aspx

There is no such thing as Great Stewardess of Scotland or Lady of the Isles for a wife of the heir. She simply holds all the titles granted to the heir as a matter of form, not the ancient honours.

Diana
As wife of HRH The Prince of Wales, Diana became HRH The Princess of Wales upon her marriage. By virtue of being the wife of the heir to the Throne, she was also Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, Countess of Carrick and Baroness of Renfrew.
http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~canyon/diana.htm#Married (#16) I guees that she was Lady of the Isles and Princess of Scotland too like Camilla is.
Camilla
Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.
http://www.duchess-of-cornwall.co.uk/duchess-of-cornwall-title.htm

 

[branchg]

You mean Regiments.org has it wrong in its listing of her where it includes "lady of the Isles"?

http://www.regiments.org/biography/royals/1947camC.htm

Where is the source saying that the wife of the Lord of the Isles doesn't become the Lay of the Isles? There seem to be different opinions about it.

The titles "Baron of Renfrew and Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland" are ancient holdings of the eldest son of the Scottish king after the War of the Roses. They merged with the British Crown when James VI became Sovereign of Great Britain.

The British heir to the throne continues to hold them as a symbol of union with Scotland and his wife is styled "Baroness Renfrew, Lady of the Isles and Princess of Scotland", but technically they are not titles held in the peerage and retained by the heir.

The styles are correct, but not really used as titles.

 

[branchg]

Camillia holds the style of "HRH The Princess Charles, Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay", but legally is HRH The Princess of Wales, et al.

 

[sara1981]

Camilla: Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.
http://www.duchess-of-cornwall.co.uk/duchess-of-cornwall-title.htm

i read Camilla's websites but she still as Duchess of Cornwall but she will known as Princess of Consort when Charles become King of England

 

[magnik]

i read Camilla's websites but she still as Duchess of Cornwall but she will known as Princess of Consort when Charles become King of England

Becouse as I read and hear somewhere that she want to be known as a DoC not a PoW like Diana was, or smth like that. But as a wife of The Prince of Wales she is legally The Princess of Wales too, like Diana was.
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/doc/duchess_cornwall_01.html

 

[sara1981]

Becouse as I read and hear somewhere that she want to be known as a DoC not a PoW like Diana was, or smth like that. But as a wife of The Prince of Wales she is legally The Princess of Wales too, like Diana was.

you're right but i wanted know makes sure if im right or im wrong

 

[sassie]

.

HRH Charles, Prince of Wales is also incorrect. He is styled HRH The Prince of Wales, along with all of his other titles as the heir to the throne. His birthright style was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh.

I thought his birthright style was HRH The Prince Charles of Edinburgh?

 

[Elspeth]

He wasn't the son of the monarch when he was born; I think the The was added when the Queen succeeded to the throne.

 

[branchg]

When Charles becomes King, Camilla automatically becomes Queen as the wife of the Sovereign.

Since the precedents established in Parliament in 1936 made clear the wife of the King is Queen under the statutory succession, it would take an Act of Parliament for Camilla to hold a lesser style, rank and title.

It remains to be seen whether the Prime Minister and Government will be willing to pass the legislation required when the time comes.

 

[sassie]

He wasn't the son of the monarch when he was born; I think the The was added when the Queen succeeded to the throne.

Oh, I see. I always forget she wasn't the monarch when he was born. Thank you!

 

[HRH Elizabeth]

Branchg, although in all other cases I would agree with you, I am a bit unsure about Camilla's becoming queen due to the circumstances of the wedding. I read an article in the Guardian (I think) about whether the Archbishop would be able to crown Camilla given the Church's position on remarriage of divorcees. The article said that the Archbishop of Canterbury had expressed doubts as to whether he could in fact crown Camilla because the Church technically views the marriage as not religiously valid. Do you know whether the Church could crown a woman as queen if she, as a divorcee, could not be married in the Church of England? I think it will be interesting to see what happens with this.

 

[Elspeth]

The church does allow remarriage of divorcees nowadays, so that shouldn't be an issue. I should think the last thing the government and the church would want is a situation where Charles becomes king and Camilla is automatically queen but she can't be crowned because the church doesn't recognise her legal status. That would raise all sorts of awkward questions about whether the government really is in charge of the laws or whether the church has the final say. Considering the drop in the number of observant Anglicans over the years, I don't think this is a situation the church would be keen to get into.

 

[HRH Elizabeth]

But Elspeth, isn't the Church's position on divorce the reason that Charles and Camilla were married in a civil ceremony? I thought that the Church still did not allow for remarriage. Oops...well, in that case, I guess that solves that. It's probably just as well, too. Although I am not Camilla's greatest fan, I don't particularly want to see a situation like what may happen in the Netherlands, according to some reports which say that Maxima may not become Queen, and instead have HM The King and HRH The Princess Maxima.

 

[Lady Bluffton]

What is that all about Princess Maxima? Maybe something for another thread...but just curious.

 

[Elspeth]

But Elspeth, isn't the Church's position on divorce the reason that Charles and Camilla were married in a civil ceremony? I thought that the Church still did not allow for remarriage. Oops...well, in that case, I guess that solves that. It's probably just as well, too. Although I am not Camilla's greatest fan, I don't particularly want to see a situation like what may happen in the Netherlands, according to some reports which say that Maxima may not become Queen, and instead have HM The King and HRH The Princess Maxima.

The church is a lot more tolerant these days. It allows the marriage of divorcees, but still tends to frown on a divorcee getting married to someone involved in the disintegration of the first marriage. Although local clergy have some flexibility about this, the high profile of the people involved in this case and the obvious involvement of Camilla in the breakup of the Wales marriage would have made it very unwise for the archbishop to allowed a remarriage in church. That doesn't preclude Camilla being Queen when Charles is King because the wife of the King is the Queen Consort automatically. It's possible that an old-fashioned archbishop might refuse to crown Charles or Camilla or both of them because of the remarriage during the lifetime of one of the previous marriage partners. However, Camilla would still be Queen unless special legislation was passed to prevent it. I'm not really sure what significance it would have if we had an uncrowned monarch; the coronation ceremony is basically religious, it isn't a legal requirement. My suspicion is that if an archbishop did decide to be difficult about crowning either or both of them, it'd be a large step down the road of disestablishing the Church of England.

 

[Queen Marie]

In other words, HRH Camilla has and will have exactly the same rights/rites and titles as Diana did aside from her family ones, obviously.
She is HRH Princess of Wales (or however one wants to put it) in my book, and she will be Queen.


Princess Charles??

 

[branchg]

In other words, HRH Camilla has and will have exactly the same rights/rites and titles as Diana did aside from her family ones, obviously.
She is HRH Princess of Wales (or however one wants to put it) in my book, and she will be Queen.


Princess Charles??

I think the general expectation at this point is that Camilla will be Queen and it would be ludicrous for her to be HRH The Princess Consort instead.

We'll have to wait and see what the public temperature is when Charles ascends the throne.

 

[Elspeth]

This thread isn't really for discussing Camilla's unique situation; however, it's true that her titles now are the same as those which Diana held before her divorce. It remains to be seen what happens in the future about whether Camilla becomes Queen or Princess Consort or if William decides to try and restore his mother's HRH posthumously.

 

[Katemac63]

This thread isn't really for discussing Camilla's unique situation; however, it's true that her titles now are the same as those which Diana held before her divorce. It remains to be seen what happens in the future about whether Camilla becomes Queen or Princess Consort or if William decides to try and restore his mother's HRH posthumously.

What if Diana ( had she lived) had chosen NOT to remarry. What if charles had gone ahead and married camilla. What would have happened to the "Diana , Princess of Wales " title. Would she have kept that and camilla be known as HRH, The Princess of Wales? Therefore having 2 . 'Princess of Wales"?

OR would Diana become known as "Diana, former Princess of Wales"?

 

[magnik]

What if Diana ( had she lived) had chosen NOT to remarry. What if charles had gone ahead and married camilla. What would have happened to the "Diana , Princess of Wales " title. Would she have kept that and camilla be known as HRH, The Princess of Wales? Therefore having 2 . 'Princess of Wales"?

After her divorce in 1996 The Princess of Wales became known as Diana, Princess of Wales based on the divorce settlement signed by the Queen, although even this style would have lapsed if Diana had remarried.

OR would Diana become known as "Diana, former Princess of Wales"?

OR just Lady Diana Spencer or Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor.
Btw. little pity that Diana like Mathilde or Maxima Diana don't has a title of Princess in her own right or other title like Princess Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg.

 

[branchg]

It's unlikely Diana would have retained the style of a divorcee with a marriage on the horizon for Charles and Camilla. There is no way the public would have accepted a remarriage for Charles without Diana being granted sufficient title and rank in her own right as the mother of a future king.

That's assuming, of course, The Queen (and the Prime Minister) would have been prepared to approve the marriage of Charles and Camilla had Diana lived.

 

[Elspeth]

What if Diana ( had she lived) had chosen NOT to remarry. What if charles had gone ahead and married camilla. What would have happened to the "Diana , Princess of Wales " title. Would she have kept that and camilla be known as HRH, The Princess of Wales? Therefore having 2 . 'Princess of Wales"?

OR would Diana become known as "Diana, former Princess of Wales"?

Charles's remarriage wouldn't affect Diana's title; only Diana's remarriage would have done that. She would have still been Diana, Princess of Wales. If Diana had still been alive, I presume Camilla would have done the same as she did in reality and be known as HRH the Duchess of Cornwall, not because the Princess of Wales title wasn't available but because of the public perception of her taking over Diana's title.

If Charles and Diana had divorced and some completely new person, uninvolved in the marriage breakup, had become Charles's second wife, it would have been quite possible for her to have been HRH the Princess of Wales and for Diana to have been Diana, Princess of Wales. That sort of thing happens all the time when remarriages occur. Lord Snowdon's second wife was the Countess of Snowdon during Princess Margaret's lifetime.

 

[branchg]

All true. However, with divorce, Diana no longer held the title "Princess of Wales". It was simply a style, similar to a surname, which is the same for all divorcees of peers until they remarry.

 

[SweetHomeNC]

If If Charles predeceased Diana

I know that William would have become the heir, but what would have happened to Diana? What would her title have become and would she have forever been considered an HRH?

 

[Henri M.]

HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales or: HRH Diana, Princess of Wales

I know that William would have become the heir, but what would have happened to Diana? What would her title have become and would she have forever been considered an HRH?

The very official style is:

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales becomes Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales

However due to negative connotations of the word "Dowager," Diana could have requested her mother-in-law to be styled as a divorcee, but then with the HRH. Because Diana would remain a member of the Royal Family (the divorce can not take place) she would also enjoy the style HRH.

Her Royal Highness Diana, Princess of Wales

-----

Example;

Her Grace The Duchess of Grafton becomes Her Grace The Dowager Duchess of Grafton

However due to negative connotations of the word "Dowager," many widows choose to be styled as a divorcee, except keeping their style.

So, Her Grace The Duchess of Grafton becomes Her Grace Anne, Duchess of Grafton

 

[BeatrixFan]

Seperated, Diana would have remained HRH The Princess of Wales until William married. She would not have been the Dowager until there was another Princess of Wales. When William married, she would probably have become a Duchess in her own right.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Of course if she remarried the situation could have changed but how I am not sure - I suspect she might then have had to be given an HRH in her own right or might have lost it due to remarriage - anyone.....

 

[EmpressRouge]

She could have also petitioned the queen to use the style HRH Princess Diana.

 

[BeatrixFan]

If Diana remarried, it would be likely that she'd cease to be an HRH and her title but as EmpressRouge said, it would depend on the Queen. Diana would have had to ask the Queen to decide her title.

 

[Roslyn]

Of course if she remarried the situation could have changed but how I am not sure - I suspect she might then have had to be given an HRH in her own right or might have lost it due to remarriage - anyone.....

I don't know the answer, but I suspect she would have been given an HRH and title in her own right. As sole parent of the heir she would have been in a much stronger and more influential position within the RF than she ever could have been as an ex-HRH after the divorce. She would want to be able to keep the HRH and title when she remarried, and I think that idea would probably have met little resistance. I am sure she would have remarried.