Diana's Royal Orders

[Duc_et_Pair]

Seeing the current rumours around Captain Hewitt and his claim that he already engaged in a relationship with the Princess of Wales before the second pregnancy... true or not true, that does not matter. As head of the family the Queen probably would have been aware about the problems in the Waleses' marriage. That might explain her attitude in showing formal public signs of approval. Any guess is as good as it is...

 

[amaryllus]

The queen is only human after all. Diana said very much that was unkind, to put it nicely, or only half truth, to the press about her family.

 

[Nico]

I can understand all of that, I just think The Queen, as the 'Fountain of Honour' could have given the Princess of Wales a Knighthood. She could have been invested as a Knight of the Thistle, The Royal Victorian Order, or even the Order of St. John Jerusalem. After fifteen years of royal duty and service, the late Princess received nothing, but the Royal Family Order from the Queen. No sign of recognition and appreciation.

That's your opinion, and i respect that but maybe the Queen had a different one about Diana as a reliable member of the BRF. On a side note Sarah didn't receive anything from the Queen, not even the RFO, despite the fact that she was the Duchess of York and did a lot of charities too. And what about Princess Michael of kent, nothing after 35 years inside the firm ?
Maybe, just maybe, the Queen didn't like the way these three highly publicised women played with the spotlights, judging that it didn't fit with her conception of a traditional day to day working Monarchy. Sometimes the behaviours of these three ladies were maybe a bit too much flamsboyant , if not out of control, for HM's taste. The down to earth, understated, a bit dull and old school approach of the Royal life a la Duchesses of Kent, Gloucester, Cornwall and Countess Sophie is much more the kind of Behaviour that the Queen wants to recognise.

 

[Dman]

I guess so, I just think it was bad for the Queen to not show any appreciation for the years of duty and service Diana put in. I mean, this was the Princess of Wales, future Queen and mother of a future King.

I'm just glad that Her Majesty now show her appreciation for her current daughter-in-laws, and hopefully she will show some appreciation and recognition to her granddaughter-in-law.

 

[Nico]

I guess so, I just think it was bad for the Queen to not show any appreciation for the years of duty and service Diana put in. I mean, this was the Princess of Wales, future Queen and mother of a future King.

I'm just glad that Her Majesty now show her appreciation for her current daughter-in-laws, and hopefully she will show some appreciation and recognition to her granddaughter-in-law.

I think the Queen did the ultimate gesture of appreciation by bowing to the late Princess of Wales's coffin in september 1997. Of course, it was way too late ...

 

[Dman]

I think the Queen did the ultimate gesture of appreciation by bowing to the late Princess of Wales's coffin in september 1997. Of course, it was way too late ...

That she did and it was very powerful indeed. I just wish she showed some appreciation towards Diana early on. I think some lessons were learned after that.

 

[Cris M]

That she did and it was very powerful indeed. I just wish she showed some appreciation towards Diana early on. I think some lessons were learned after that.

I think you're being very unfair with the Queen, saying she had no appreciation for Diana.

Did Diana had any appreciation for the Queen or for the Monarchy? Let's remember that she only had the power to do her charity work and have all the impact she had because of the Monarchy, because of the Prince of Wales and because of the Queen.

And how did she retributed? Turning a revered institution in her own soap opera, attacking her husband on television, embarrassing the Queen and putting the future of her own sons at risk.

Diana may have been good for her charities, but she was not that good for the Monarchy during her final years. No wonder the Queen gave her nothing more than the Royal Family Order, and Her Majesty was absolutely right.

 

[Arrjann]

I think you're being very unfair with the Queen, saying she had no appreciation for Diana.

Did Diana had any appreciation for the Queen or for the Monarchy? Let's remember that she only had the power to do her charity work and have all the impact she had because of the Monarchy, because of the Prince of Wales and because of the Queen.

And how did she retributed? Turning a revered institution in her own soap opera, attacking her husband on television, embarrassing the Queen and putting the future of her own sons at risk.

Diana may have been good for her charities, but she was not that good for the Monarchy during her final years. No wonder the Queen gave her nothing more than the Royal Family Order, and Her Majesty was absolutely right.

Well said.
The fact that Diana could keep living at Kensington Palace is, in my view, a sign of very proper treatment by the Queen towards her (former) daughter-in-law.

 

[MARG]

I can understand all of that, I just think The Queen, as the 'Fountain of Honour' could have given the Princess of Wales a Knighthood. She could have been invested as a Knight of the Thistle, The Royal Victorian Order, or even the Order of St. John Jerusalem. After fifteen years of royal duty and service, the late Princess received nothing, but the Royal Family Order from the Queen. No sign of recognition and appreciation.

I guess so, I just think it was bad for the Queen to not show any appreciation for the years of duty and service Diana put in. I mean, this was the Princess of Wales, future Queen and mother of a future King.

I'm just glad that Her Majesty now show her appreciation for her current daughter-in-laws, and hopefully she will show some appreciation and recognition to her granddaughter-in-law.

That she did and it was very powerful indeed. I just wish she showed some appreciation towards Diana early on. I think some lessons were learned after that.

I think calling the Queen's honour into question because she did not do something you wanted her to do 20 odd years ago just plain sucks. You repeatedly moan about what you perceive as HM's not showing her appreciation of Diana.

What you fail to understand is that family orders are given out at her will and while we may know all the public ugly mess, Diana disparaging the RF, HM and the POW she, and others within the family got the dubious pleasure of seeing the first, second and third acts of a marriage breakup before the media even got into the act. And then it was ringside seats at one hell of a very public circus.

I think you're being very unfair with the Queen, saying she had no appreciation for Diana.

Did Diana had any appreciation for the Queen or for the Monarchy? Let's remember that she only had the power to do her charity work and have all the impact she had because of the Monarchy, because of the Prince of Wales and because of the Queen.

And how did she retributed? Turning a revered institution in her own soap opera, attacking her husband on television, embarrassing the Queen and putting the future of her own sons at risk.

Diana may have been good for her charities, but she was not that good for the Monarchy during her final years. No wonder the Queen gave her nothing more than the Royal Family Order, and Her Majesty was absolutely right.

Well said.
The fact that Diana could keep living at Kensington Palace is, in my view, a sign of very proper treatment by the Queen towards her (former) daughter-in-law.

Yes, HM did strive to never disparage Diana or later, Sarah, for the situation the BRF was in. But while she kept out of things publically, the press coverage must have been mortifying for her. She is of a generation that did not wash it's dirty linen in public.

I should imagine the very last thing she would have considered would have been bestowing another family order on Diana or later, Sarah.

 

[Dman]

There's no doubt that Diana made her mistakes and her separation and divorce was a mess but Diana didn't bring those situations on the Monarchy by herself. She had help from her husband, The Prince of Wales.

Despite all those problems, hurt and pain, Diana continued on with her royal duties. She toured the country, supported a great deal of charities, attended a great deal of official and State visits, and traveled aboard on behalf of The Queen. No matter what personal issues she had, she flew the flag for Queen and Country very well. She also help birth and bring up two lovely young heirs to the throne. She's wasn't perfect but she did her job for fifteen years and that should have been rewarded.

Mistakes were made, but lets not put the entire burden of the Monarchy's troubled years all on Diana. She didn't do all that mischief on her own. The future King also did his damage to the Monarchy as well.

I think Diana deserved honors from The Queen.

 

[Ish]

There's no doubt that Diana made her mistakes and her separation and divorce was a mess but Diana didn't bring those situations on the Monarchy by herself. She had help from her husband, The Prince of Wales.

Despite all those problems, hurt and pain, Diana continued on with her royal duties. She toured the country, supported a great deal of charities, attended a great deal of official and State visits, and traveled aboard on behalf of The Queen. No matter what personal issues she had, she flew the flag for Queen and Country very well. She also help birth and bring up two lovely young heirs to the throne. She's wasn't perfect but she did her job for fifteen years and that should have been rewarded.

Mistakes were made, but lets not put the entire burden of the Monarchy's troubled years all on Diana. She didn't do all that mischief on her own. The future King also did his damage to the Monarchy as well.

I think Diana deserved honors from The Queen.

As often has to be pointed out, no one is saying that Diana was the only one who made mistakes in the marriage. Saying that Diana made mistakes is not ignoring that Charles also made mistakes.

However, saying that Diana worked for the BRF for 15 years and deserved to be rewarded for that is utter ridiculousness. Diana worked for the BRF from the time of her marriage to at most the time of her separation. Anything she did after her separation was not for the BRF but rather for herself.

About the timeline... Anne was 19 when she was given the RFO - she had been a royal her whole life, but had to wait until then before being given that. She didn't get her RVO until after her first marriage, and she didn't get her Garter until 1994. The Queen made her work for a good while before hand. Andrew got his RVO when he was younger than Anne, but he didn't get his Garter until 2006. Likewise, Edward also didn't get his Garter until 2006 - the Queen made them all wait and work a bit before getting it.

Diana got her RFO fairly early on. She probably would have gotten more after some time except... well, there were problems in the marriage by 1986 according to all counts (even earlier if rumours are to be believed), and the couple separated by 1992. Diana only worked for the family for 11 years officially before her separation. She wouldn't have been up for a Garter yet - Anne had to work almost 20 years before getting hers. You could argue that Diana should have gotten her RVO, which Camilla and Sophie both have... but Camilla and Sophie both had long relationships with their husbands before marriage, and don't seem to have the marital discord that Diana had - I would bet that if there were problems in either of their marriages, the Queen wouldn't have given them the honours they've received. I don't think it's a case of they've worked for it so they receive it so much as they're working for it/have worked for it, and are clearly sticking around.

 

[Iluvbertie]

One of Diana's most important roles and ways of providing 'personal service to the monarch' was to make The Queen's eldest son and heir happy in his family life. She was unable to do that and so didn't provide a 'personal service' to the monarch that the monarch expected from her. By the time the marriage had reached the 5 year mark it was clearly over and so at about the time The Queen may have been thinking about the RVO it was not going to happen as Diana had failed in her most important job - making the heir happy - and she was also by then cheating which was a huge no-no for the wife of the heir to the throne.

 

[Dman]

One of Diana's most important roles and ways of providing 'personal service to the monarch' was to make The Queen's eldest son and heir happy in his family life. She was unable to do that and so didn't provide a 'personal service' to the monarch that the monarch expected from her. By the time the marriage had reached the 5 year mark it was clearly over and so at about the time The Queen may have been thinking about the RVO it was not going to happen as Diana had failed in her most important job - making the heir happy - and she was also by then cheating which was a huge no-no for the wife of the heir to the throne.

I think she did make the heir happy, in the early years, and she gave him two sons that he clearly adore. Who knew the heir and his princess failed to make things work and get rid of their side pieces. She worked though, and I just don't think any of it was appreciated by the Monarch. The people she touched, met and never met appreciated her efforts. I guess that's all that matters in the end.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The early years weren't long enough - two to three years at most wasn't long enough.


That marriage ended somewhere around late 1984, with Harry's birth, and The Queen knew that.


Diana therefore failed in one of her most important tasks - to make Charles happy.


That is why the Queen waits so long - to ensure that her sons are happy with their chosen wives before giving them any further awards besides her personal orders.


Diana didn't deserve anything else as within a very short period of time her marriage to Charles was over - maybe not in a legal sense but in a real one - separate bedrooms were reported as early as 1982 for instance and the fact that they were hardly ever under the same roof stories were in the press by 1983 - so two years and they were struggling to make it work and by 1984 it was over so why give her a reward when she had failed in the most important role - to make Charles happy.

 

[Dman]

The early years weren't long enough - two to three years at most wasn't long enough.


That marriage ended somewhere around late 1984, with Harry's birth, and The Queen knew that.


Diana therefore failed in one of her most important tasks - to make Charles happy.


That is why the Queen waits so long - to ensure that her sons are happy with their chosen wives before giving them any further awards besides her personal orders.


Diana didn't deserve anything else as within a very short period of time her marriage to Charles was over - maybe not in a legal sense but in a real one - separate bedrooms were reported as early as 1982 for instance and the fact that they were hardly ever under the same roof stories were in the press by 1983 - so two years and they were struggling to make it work and by 1984 it was over so why give her a reward when she had failed in the most important role - to make Charles happy.

I guess Charles failing to to make her happy really don't matter. I think this is all excuses. The marriage wasn't perfect, but Diana still soldiered on and did her official duties. She traveled around the country, shaking countless hands, and meeting endless people. She traveled abroad to many different countries and the Commonwealth on behalf of The Queen. She was patron and president for hundreds of charitable organizations and colonel-in-chief of several military regiments. She started out as a young and inexperienced princess, and grew into a confident senior member of the royal family and future Queen. The part she played in the "Firm" mattered but it really did go unappreciated by the "firm" she worked for and that's just sad, IMO.

 

[Arrjann]

I guess Charles failing to to make her happy really don't matter. I think this is all excuses. The marriage wasn't perfect, but Diana still soldiered on and did her official duties. She traveled around the country, shaking countless hands, and meeting endless people. She traveled abroad to many different countries and the Commonwealth on behalf of The Queen. She was patron and president for hundreds of charitable organizations and colonel-in-chief of several military regiments. She started out as a young and inexperienced princess, and grew into a confident senior member of the royal family and future Queen. The part she played in the "Firm" mattered but it really did go unappreciated by the "firm" she worked for and that's just sad, IMO.

The Queen has always treated Diana well. You can say that by allowing Diana to keep on living at Kensington Palace was her way of showing her respect, despite all that had happened. Bestowing orders or other honours on her would have been silly and moreover: after the marriage failed I don't think Diana expected any order of whatever and probably couldn't care less either.

 

[Dman]

The Queen has always treated Diana well. You can say that by allowing Diana to keep on living at Kensington Palace was her way of showing her respect, despite all that had happened. Bestowing orders or other honours on her would have been silly and moreover: after the marriage failed I don't think Diana expected any order of whatever and probably couldn't care less either.

I think she was hurt by it all. She carried on though.

 

[Arrjann]

I think she was hurt by it all. She carried on though.

An RVO wouldn't have changed anything about her feeling hurt. I'm sure she was realistic enough to know that she wouldn't get an honour anymore after publicly trashing the institution of monarchy. And again: I really think she couldn't care less.

 

[royal rob]

I can't believe in these times we are still talking about a wife's duty is to keep her husband happy even when said husband is having an affair. Sorry to butt in but that just left me speechless


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[Osipi]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't there a difference between the Orders that the Queen bestows on her family and the other orders that are awarded for service and contribution to the Crown and country? Also, if Diana had performed her duties and contributed to her charities above and beyond what was expected of her (after the separation and subsequent divorce), wouldn't it have been possible for someone to have nominated her to the Honors list?

As I see it, the RFO and the RVO are the Queen's way of letting her family know how much they are liked and appreciated personally.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The RVO is for 'personal service to the monarch' not for service to the country or the world at large.


Diana didn't provide an appropriate level of service to The Queen.


Yes - it was her job to make her husband happy. Had she been able to do that he wouldn't have looked elsewhere.


Yes - Diana was also entitled to happiness in her marriage to Charles.


That marriage had ended in 1984 effectively and by 1986 both were cheating, if not earlier on both counts.


That is the whole point to me - Diana failed to make Charles happy so he had to look elsewhere and that was known within the family so by the time The Queen might have been considering whether or not Diana had provided 'personal service to the monarch' it was clear that she hadn't met The Queen's standards.


There is a difference between serving the nation on an official basis - which Diana did - serving her chosen charities - which Diana did - and providing 'personal service to the monarch' which according to The Queen, Diana didn't do.


I am surmising that it is because the marriage was a failure by the time that she would have considered giving any further awards to Diana.


Diana herself identifies Harry's birth as when the marriage died - barely three years - and so the Queen withheld any acknowledgement of Diana providing 'personal service'.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Diana received the RFO the same year she married.

Sophie began working for the firm 'fulltime' in 2002 and received the RFO in 2004, in her 3rd year as a 'fulltime working royal'.

Camilla began working for the firm 'fulltime' in 2005 and received the RFO in 2007, in her 3rd year as a 'fulltime' working royal'.

Sophie received the GCVO in 2010 during her 9th year as a 'fulltime' royal.
Camilla received the GCVO in 2012 during her 8th year as a 'fulltime' royal.

Diana received her RFO much sooner than anyone else.

Diana did not receive the GCVO as 8 or 9 years into the marriage, the marriage was over but more importantly Diana was already 'bad mouthing' the royal family, including the Queen.

Jephson tells how when he went for a job interview with Diana she referred to her in-laws as 'The Germans'. IIRC, this was in 1988.

I am sure the Queen and Prince Philip didn't like being referred to as 'Germans' and the 'real' boss of the family, the Queen Mother was probably extremely angry.

Why would the Queen honor Diana with anything when Diana was disrespectful to her?

 

[Osipi]

The RVO is for 'personal service to the monarch' not for service to the country or the world at large.


Diana didn't provide an appropriate level of service to The Queen.


Yes - it was her job to make her husband happy. Had she been able to do that he wouldn't have looked elsewhere.


Yes - Diana was also entitled to happiness in her marriage to Charles.


That marriage had ended in 1984 effectively and by 1986 both were cheating, if not earlier on both counts.


That is the whole point to me - Diana failed to make Charles happy so he had to look elsewhere and that was known within the family so by the time The Queen might have been considering whether or not Diana had provided 'personal service to the monarch' it was clear that she hadn't met The Queen's standards.


There is a difference between serving the nation on an official basis - which Diana did - serving her chosen charities - which Diana did - and providing 'personal service to the monarch' which according to The Queen, Diana didn't do.


I am surmising that it is because the marriage was a failure by the time that she would have considered giving any further awards to Diana.


Diana herself identifies Harry's birth as when the marriage died - barely three years - and so the Queen withheld any acknowledgement of Diana providing 'personal service'.

Thanks for these answers. I think it demonstrates very well why Diana did not receive any further orders for her own personal service to the monarch and for me, raises another question which I believe Dman has brought up also. For her service to Crown and country, wouldn't it have been possible for someone to nominate her to the Honors List? I'm not exactly sure how that works.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Diana really did not do much charity work.

It took her 12 years to become patron of approximately 100 charities and about a third of these charities she only accepted them to boost her popularity during the early 90s. She then dropped most of them.

Since 1982, there have been articles about Diana using charities to boost her popularity after she received bad press. (People magazine has a few.)
Bad press followed by picking up a new charity. It was her MO and People magazine called her on it in 1982.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....] there were problems in the marriage by 1986 according to all counts (even earlier if rumours are to be believed), and the couple separated by 1992. [....]

Which means that only in the first 5-6 years there was no controverse -at least not public- in the Waleses' marriage. Now the claims are popping up that Captain Hewitt already engaged into a relationship with the Princess of Wales before her second marriage. That means that the timeline of "a Princess of Wales with a spotless banner" was ultra-short.

A second consideration: there were a lot of senior ladies alive back then:
- Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother
- The Princess Margaret
- Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone
- Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester
- Princess Alexandra, The Hon. Lady Ogilvy
- Lady May Abel Smith born Princess of Teck
- even the Duchess of Windsor was alive...

The "need" to decorate the new stock (Diana and Sarah) was not apparent as there were a handful of royal ladies with a lifetime of royal service and all bestowed lots of honours. Probably the Queen thought: "Diana and Sarah will get their Orders, not now, but in times to come".

 

[Osipi]

Diana really did not do much charity work.

It took her 12 years to become patron of approximately 100 charities and about a third of these charities she only accepted them to boost her popularity during the early 90s. She then dropped most of them.

Since 1982, there have been articles about Diana using charities to boost her popularity after she received bad press. (People magazine has a few.)
Bad press followed by picking up a new charity. It was her MO and People magazine called her on it in 1982.

Wasn't it also a stipulation that she perform these duties in order to live at KP during the separation? IIRC, I think I read that if she didn't keep up with her duties, she would have to pay the going rent to remain there.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Yes, that is what Jephson wrote in his book. Diana would have to continue to perform charity work or pay the going rate to live in KP.

 

[MARG]

Diana really did not do much charity work.

It took her 12 years to become patron of approximately 100 charities and about a third of these charities she only accepted them to boost her popularity during the early 90s. She then dropped most of them.

Since 1982, there have been articles about Diana using charities to boost her popularity after she received bad press. (People magazine has a few.)
Bad press followed by picking up a new charity. It was her MO and People magazine called her on it in 1982.

Sad but true, the fact that such discussions were even raised is shocking in itself. Back then we keep getting told that Diana was an Angel, etc. and having met her I can sort of understand why. She was an incredible charismatic woman and, to this day, I have never seen a photo that quite captured just how stunningly attractive she was.

And pretty people are angels, as seen by some of the more forceful and fervent attempts to rewrite history after her death, and any negative views seen as heresy. It also means that people can sit at their computers with over 20 years of hindsight and castigate HM for not giving their "Angel" enough ribbons and bows. Making snide and nasty comments about HM's "honour" and "lack of appreciation". Now that is truely ugly.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Wasn't it also a stipulation that she perform these duties in order to live at KP during the separation? IIRC, I think I read that if she didn't keep up with her duties, she would have to pay the going rent to remain there.

The royal appartments at Kensington Palace are grace-and-favour appartments, which means free-of-rent accomodation. These are stand-alone arrangements and are not at all connected to any work or duty. The Royal Household operates a grace-and-favour scheme for dozens of people, royals included. Amongst these also courtiers whom enjoy retirement. A short while ago the newspaper The Independent got a peek in these arrangements (Freedom of Information Inquest) and saw documents involving arrangements for the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, the Duke and Duchess of Kent, Princess Alexandra and six members of the Royal Household having free accomodation at Kensington Palace or St James' Palace. The arrangement was about the accomodation, in no any arrangement which was seen by The Independent a link was made to the performing of (public) duties.

 

[Dman]

No matter how many times people try to play down Diana's royal life as the Princess of Wales, she did her duties and served the Queen in a very personal way. She flew the flag for Queen and Country for fifteen years and I just think she should have been bestowed an honor from The Queen. She should have at least one royal Order, other than the RFO, under her belt.