Charles III: Coronation Information and Musings - Part 1


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^^

I'm sure there will be. I can't see the BRF abandoning the coronation altogether and going with the more continental European inauguration.
 
I wouldn't want them to have just a separate civil service at Westminster Hall or Horse Guards Parade.

I still hope that a traditional coronation adapted to the new times will be performed.

As far as I understand, the traditional Anglican coronation service will still be held at the Abbey but will be shorter (close in duration to a normal Sunday church service or a wedding service for example).

What they seem to be proposing is that the traditional homage to the new King by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, which is indeed a relic of the feudal constitution, be replaced by a separate civil ceremony at Westminster Hall where, I assume, MPs and only those peers who are members of the House of Lords could pledge allegiance to the King, similarly to what happens in the Dutch inauguration. If my understanding is correct, I think it makes sense, but it practically rules out coronets, ermine robes, and tiaras at the coronation service itself, except for the Queen Consort herself and probably some other senior members of the Royal Family like the Princess of Wales.

In that case, a coronation ball or banquet could be later held at the Palace, where the foreign royal guests, peeresses and other members of the Royal Family could wear grand jewels. That would be similar also to what was done at the enthronement of Emperor Naruhito in Japan.
 
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I wouldn't want them to have just a separate civil service at Westminster Hall or Horse Guards Parade.

I still hope that a traditional coronation adapted to the new times will be performed.

I have to point out something very noticeable on that photo of King CIII and the Prince of Wales side by side, hat by hat. William is a replica of his dad from eyebrows to nose! He even does the same smile. But William got a bigger hat :lol:
 
I'm sorry but having another ceremony in Westminster Hall is absurd IMO. Just have the Prince of Wales pay homage on behalf of all the Lords if you have to.
 
https://royalcentral.co.uk/uk/wales...g-charles-iiis-head-at-his-coronation-182486/

I found this bit of the article quite interesting.

[FONT=&quot]‘From Queen Anne’s coronation in 1702 until King Edward VII’s coronation in 1902, St. Edward’s Crown was present at the ceremony but not actually worn. Queen Victoria’s son had hoped to wear it but was recovering from a serious illness and could not handle the significant weight of the crown. Edward’s son, King George V, revived the tradition of the monarch wearing the crown during their coronation.’[/FONT]
 
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I'm sorry but having another ceremony in Westminster Hall is absurd IMO. Just have the Prince of Wales pay homage on behalf of all the Lords if you have to.

I am wondering whether the Archbishop of Canterbury will pay his homage in the Abbey or not bother. I can't see him paying homage in a civil service and he is the one to go first - after crowning the monarch he pays homage first. Maybe he could do it on behalf of everyone as it is a religious service and simply forget the rest.

The traditional point of the ceremony is for the peers to publicly and in person pay their homage BEFORE GOD and the altar at the Abbey but this King seems to forget that every aspect of this service is religiously based.

Why have two ceremonies? Would they be on different days ,,, thus increasing the cost of security or would he have to move from one building to the other. Just as easy to have the five senior peers in each degree perform the homage on behalf of all at the Abbey with the other peers watching from the Hall or maybe have them at St Paul's watching on a large screen with say the Bishop of London overseeing things. That would free up the seats and still be religiously based.

We could even have a split screen set up where one side shows say The Duke of Norfolk more forward to make his homage (and he has to be in the Abbey anyway as Earl Marshal) while at St Paul's the other Dukes kneel to make their homage.

William would do it on behalf of the royal dukes so the royal dukes could also be at St Paul's with the rest on the royal family ... or maybe they could be at St George's with the Dean of Windsor overseeing things.
 
As I understand it, these are recommendations that have been put forward by the constitutional unit at University College. They are just one part of the team involved in the planning of the coronation. Their recommendations can be followed in full, ignored in full or followed in part.

Just because an academic paper makes certain recommendations doesn't mean that's definitely what's going to happen. Hopefully all voices will be listened to - not just the squeaky wheels.
 
I am wondering whether the Archbishop of Canterbury will pay his homage in the Abbey or not bother. I can't see him paying homage in a civil service and he is the one to go first - after crowning the monarch he pays homage first. Maybe he could do it on behalf of everyone as it is a religious service and simply forget the rest.

The traditional point of the ceremony is for the peers to publicly and in person pay their homage BEFORE GOD and the altar at the Abbey but this King seems to forget that every aspect of this service is religiously based.

Why have two ceremonies? Would they be on different days ,,, thus increasing the cost of security or would he have to move from one building to the other. Just as easy to have the five senior peers in each degree perform the homage on behalf of all at the Abbey with the other peers watching from the Hall or maybe have them at St Paul's watching on a large screen with say the Bishop of London overseeing things. That would free up the seats and still be religiously based.

We could even have a split screen set up where one side shows say The Duke of Norfolk more forward to make his homage (and he has to be in the Abbey anyway as Earl Marshal) while at St Paul's the other Dukes kneel to make their homage.

William would do it on behalf of the royal dukes so the royal dukes could also be at St Paul's with the rest on the royal family ... or maybe they could be at St George's with the Dean of Windsor overseeing things.

The civil ceremony, if I understood it correctly, is a proposal of the UCL Constitution Unit, not of the King. Obviously the professors at UCL believe that some aspects of the religious ceremony are at odds with the modern constitution and think that a civil ceremony at Westminster Hall involving members of the two Houses of Parliament would be more adequate. I must say I agree. Except for the 654 or so life peers and the 92 hereditary peers who are members of the House of Lords, peers have no constitutional role in the UK today. Why should they pay homage to the King as they did in the past as vassals of a feudal Lord?

I take the article in The Telegraph to be speculative though at this point. It remains to be seen if those proposals will be accepted or not.
 
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An opinion piece from the Spectator

The case against a*stripped-back coronation


(...)

The coronation is*the*great state occasion. Its roots are biblical – in the Book of Kings, the King is crowned and anointed in the temple and all the people shout ‘God save the King’. In England, coronation ceremonies existed well before the Norman Conquest, and the Normans themselves drew on the coronation of Charlemagne in 800. In Scotland, the coronation had separate, mediaeval origins. The two nations’ ceremonies united in 1714: George I’s oath spoke of ‘this kingdom of Great Britain’.

Contrary to myth, the coronation’s essential elements were not invented by late-Victorian imperialists. They are much older and deeper. They bring together church and state. They are pre-modern, and therefore pre-democratic, but imply the consent of the people and exemplify the need of kingship to stand before them.

(...)

According to the historian John Martin Robinson: ‘State ceremonial should be treated like a great historic building with respect for elements of different dates and significance.’ A spectacle the coronation certainly is, but not mere show. All its elements contain meaning.

Both church and state should guard this meaning. So far, vigilance has not been displayed. The traditional proclamation of the coronation takes place – as, movingly, did that of the King’s accession last month – from the balcony of St James’s Palace. But last week it was dropped without explanation, apparently by the Earl Marshal, the Duke of Norfolk, who oversees ceremonial. In the past, the Court of Claims heard the claims of those with hereditary rights to coronation roles, such as the King’s Champion, who rode armoured into Westminster Hall and threw down the gauntlet to anyone challenging the new monarch. The Dymoke family from Lincolnshire holds the hereditary right to be Champion, and an existing Dymoke stands ready. This time, the court will not sit.

The press has been briefed that the service will be ‘stripped back’. It will also be dressed down. Lt. Colonel Anthony Mather, who formerly worked on coronation plans for the royal household, announced last week that peers will not wear their coronation robes: ‘Give them [the robes, not the peers] to a museum where they belong,’ he says. He wants ‘morning suit or lounge suit’ only. In the past, Ede & Ravenscroft have been the principal tailors for such occasions. At the time of writing, they are still awaiting orders. The time is quite tight.

No doubt some modernisations are needed, but is it a good idea for people like Col. Mather to decree what should be consigned to a museum? Do they really know?

(...)

Good question.
Since the argument is based on historical value, could it be historians?

I wonder, if the problem is to avoid association to imperialism, could the coronation be based on the pre-Victorian one? Considering Charles's age, maybe William IV's? Surely his wasn't as grand as QEII's.
 
William IV didn't even want a coronation and had to be forced to have one. It was still a grand occasion and from what I have read about it, and about what is planned for Charles' William's will have been far grander than what Charles appears to be planning.
William IV's went for about 4 hours. Charles is planning about 1 hour. William didn't cut out anything in the Abbey but the parade to and from was shorter. Charles seems to want to cut out actual ceremony while William cut back the trappings not the actual ceremony itself.
 
I am wondering whether the Archbishop of Canterbury will pay his homage in the Abbey or not bother. I can't see him paying homage in a civil service and he is the one to go first - after crowning the monarch he pays homage first. Maybe he could do it on behalf of everyone as it is a religious service and simply forget the rest.

The traditional point of the ceremony is for the peers to publicly and in person pay their homage BEFORE GOD and the altar at the Abbey but this King seems to forget that every aspect of this service is religiously based.

Why have two ceremonies? Would they be on different days ,,, thus increasing the cost of security or would he have to move from one building to the other. Just as easy to have the five senior peers in each degree perform the homage on behalf of all at the Abbey with the other peers watching from the Hall or maybe have them at St Paul's watching on a large screen with say the Bishop of London overseeing things. That would free up the seats and still be religiously based.

We could even have a split screen set up where one side shows say The Duke of Norfolk more forward to make his homage (and he has to be in the Abbey anyway as Earl Marshal) while at St Paul's the other Dukes kneel to make their homage.

William would do it on behalf of the royal dukes so the royal dukes could also be at St Paul's with the rest on the royal family ... or maybe they could be at St George's with the Dean of Windsor overseeing things.

Why on earth would they have the family and things in St Paul’s, which is bigger anyway. Just cut back. 4 hours is a ridiculous amount of time to do a ceremony nowadays. Just cut it. All anyone wants to see is the crown put on the heads anyway and maybe William, representing the royal family pay allegiance. Other then that everyone will want to see if H turns up, how cute the Wales children look in their costumes and be interested in what people wear. Done and dusted. A banquet with all the jewels and tiaras and things would probably be nice for the evening.
 
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William IV didn't even want a coronation and had to be forced to have one. It was still a grand occasion and from what I have read about it, and about what is planned for Charles' William's will have been far grander than what Charles appears to be planning.
William IV's went for about 4 hours. Charles is planning about 1 hour. William didn't cut out anything in the Abbey but the parade to and from was shorter. Charles seems to want to cut out actual ceremony while William cut back the trappings not the actual ceremony itself.

I think, given what we have seen in recent celebrations, is that the trappings on the street is what people want. People will go to the royal parks, line up on the mall to see people going by in carriages and the military parading. Thst part people will feel important, the ceremony itself they will have zero interest in. I am talking about the average person on the street. I went to London for two days of the jubilee and the atmosphere on the streets was amazing. I won’t be doing it for the coronation though…mainly because I am not that interested.
 
William IV didn't even want a coronation and had to be forced to have one. It was still a grand occasion and from what I have read about it, and about what is planned for Charles' William's will have been far grander than what Charles appears to be planning.
William IV's went for about 4 hours. Charles is planning about 1 hour. William didn't cut out anything in the Abbey but the parade to and from was shorter. Charles seems to want to cut out actual ceremony while William cut back the trappings not the actual ceremony itself.

The more I hear about the man the more I feel he may be one of my favourite monarchs ever. Up there with both Elizabeth’s, Charles II and Edward VII. What a cantankerous legend. Didn’t he get bored at something and just walk out too?
 
Why on earth would they have the family and things in St Paul’s, which is bigger anyway. Just cut back. 4 hours is a ridiculous amount of time to do a ceremony nowadays. Just cut it. All anyone wants to see is the crown put on the heads anyway and maybe William, representing the royal family pay allegiance. Other then that everyone will want to see if H turns up, how cute the Wales children look in their costumes and be interested in what people wear. Done and dusted. A banquet with all the jewels and tiaras and things would probably be nice for the evening.

I can't say I agree.
I admit I don't know much about British coronation ceremony, but in mine (though it's more of enthronement than coronation) each step of the ritual has meaning, it's full of symbolisms and I find it fascinating. It's why I like our traditional wedding ceremony than modern/western-style wedding most of my generation choose. For me, the western-style one is only about wearing pretty dress and party (no offence to western posters, I'm referring to western-style wedding in my country) compare to the traditional ceremony with all that ritual that tell story.

What make the ceremony went so long? The homage? The part where dozens of peers pledge reverence and submission one by one? In this case, o agree that it's not necessary, just couple of representations should be enough, no need for each of the them do one. But for the reason above, I'm not on board with "just put the crown on his head and be done with it" then parade them on the street.

As for ermine vs suit, I'm still undecided about it. I mean, they wear robes for the Garter ceremony, but in this age and recession, for one do those peers still have one to wear? And considering the plan to invite representation of charities and other organisations, it would only make class disparity more glaring.

On top of it, the current political turbulent in Britain really doesn't help. Did similar situation where coronation happening in the middle of parliament circus ever happen in the past?
 
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I can't say I agree.
I admit I don't know much about British coronation ceremony, but in mine (though it's more of enthronement than coronation) each step of the ritual has meaning, it's full of symbolisms and I find it fascinating. It's why I like our traditional wedding ceremony than modern/western-style wedding most of my generation choose. For me, the western-style one is only about wearing pretty dress and party (no offence to western posters, I'm referring to western-style wedding in my country) compare to the traditional ceremony with all that ritual that tell story.

What make the ceremony went so long? The homage? The part where dozens of peers pledge reverence and submission one by one? In this case, o agree that it's not necessary, just couple of representations should be enough, no need for each of the them do one. But for the reason above, I'm not on board with "just put the crown on his head and be done with it" then parade them on the street.

As for ermine vs suit, I'm still undecided about it. I mean, they wear robes for the Garter ceremony, but in this age and recession, for one do those peers still have one to wear? And considering the plan to invite representation of charities and other organisations, it would only make class disparity more glaring.

On top of it, the current political turbulent in Britain really doesn't help. Did similar situation where coronation happening in the middle of parliament circus ever happen in the past?

At an hour, there will be more than popping the crown on the head. There will be no ermine anyway. The robes used at the garter ceremony arent ermine and all the ones from 70 years ago are gone. No one is going to sanction slaughter to make more. The order of the garter may well wear their robes. Who knows.
 
An opinion piece from the Spectator

The case against a*stripped-back coronation




Good question.
Since the argument is based on historical value, could it be historians?

I wonder, if the problem is to avoid association to imperialism, could the coronation be based on the pre-Victorian one? Considering Charles's age, maybe William IV's? Surely his wasn't as grand as QEII's.


They can keep the "biblical" elements like the King being crowned and annointed and still have a slimmed down ceremony.
 
William IV didn't even want a coronation and had to be forced to have one. It was still a grand occasion and from what I have read about it, and about what is planned for Charles' William's will have been far grander than what Charles appears to be planning.
William IV's went for about 4 hours. Charles is planning about 1 hour. William didn't cut out anything in the Abbey but the parade to and from was shorter. Charles seems to want to cut out actual ceremony while William cut back the trappings not the actual ceremony itself.

Out of curiosity, I googled William IV's coronation and this is from wikipedia:

In terms of cost, William IV and the government refused to repeat the extreme of George IV's lavish coronation in 1821, which cost £240,000, (equivalent to £21,766,596 in 2021) but they went to the opposite extreme and spent only £30,000 on a "cut-price" event (equivalent to £2,898,102 in 2021). Seven years later, Queen Victoria's coronation was budgeted at £70,000 to achieve a compromise between the two extremes.

So in term of cost (which I'm sure is more pressing concern than the length of the ceremony), compares to George IV and Victoria (and Elizabeth II), William IV's coronation was less "grand".

Interestingly
According to the historian*Roy Strong, William IV had "an inbred dislike of ceremonial" and he wanted to dispense with the coronation altogether.*He conceded that there was a constitutional necessity but insisted that there must be no ceremonial or procession associated with*Westminster Hall* and this outraged the Tories, who called the event the "Half Crown-nation".*As Strong says, William's insistence "signalled the end of a whole litany of symbolic acts going back to the Middle Ages, including the coronation banquet, the ritual of the King's Champion throwing down the gauntlet, and endless petty actions related to land tenure".

And now there's a proposal to have ceremony in Westminster Hall again?

Anyway, I think there still something to take note from William IV's coronation as reference for the next coronation. He seemed to have some right ideas that will fit the so called "modern coronation".

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_of_William_IV_and_Adelaide
 
What make the ceremony went so long? The homage? The part where dozens of peers pledge reverence and submission one by one? In this case, o agree that it's not necessary, just couple of representations should be enough, no need for each of the them do one. But for the reason above, I'm not on board with "just put the crown on his head and be done with it" then parade them on the street.

The number of peers swearing allegiance was cut from them all, in 1837, to 5 in 1902 due to Edward VII's appendix.

In 1953 the homage was:

The Archbishops of Canterbury and York
The Royal Dukes of Edinburgh, Gloucester and Kent
The most senior peer of each degree - 1 Duke, 1 Marquis, 1 Earl, 1 Viscount and 1 Baron

That has to go to cut the ceremony down from 3-4 hours to about 1 hour. It took about 45 minutes for those 10 people in 1953 so that goes to save that time. Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury will still get to swear allegiance to the Supreme Governor of the CoE in a religious ceremony. The rest they can do at the football on the Sunday.

A lot more will have to go as well, especially as they have to add in the coronation of The Queen Consort.
 
Having a second civic type event would just draw out the whole process. Who wants to watch a load of politicians swearing an oath to The King. I suspect viewing figures for that would compete with watching paint dry!

The coronation will be like the 2012 Olympics & previous jubilees where many complained & said it would be a damp squib & were of course proved spectacularly wrong.

The French manage a huge military parade involving thousands every single year in July so surely the bean counters won't begrudge a similar sized parade through central London.

The religious elements of the coronation will fascinate much of the world or at least the West. TV & the internet will broadcast it around the world & it will be an absolute wonder.
 
Will the Latin shouts of Vivat Rex be heard during the Coronation service?
 
Having a second civic type event would just draw out the whole process. Who wants to watch a load of politicians swearing an oath to The King. I suspect viewing figures for that would compete with watching paint dry!

The coronation will be like the 2012 Olympics & previous jubilees where many complained & said it would be a damp squib & were of course proved spectacularly wrong.

The French manage a huge military parade involving thousands every single year in July so surely the bean counters won't begrudge a similar sized parade through central London.

The religious elements of the coronation will fascinate much of the world or at least the West. TV & the internet will broadcast it around the world & it will be an absolute wonder.

Well said. I think the civic elements can be integrated into the main service at the Abbey.
 
Will the Latin shouts of Vivat Rex be heard during the Coronation service?

Vivat Rex Carolus I presume.?
Of course there will be. That is, after all, why everyone is there. Apart from this, the Order of Service will tell everyone what it means and when to shout . . .

LONG LIVE THE KING​
 
The Duke and Duchess of Sussex's perfect excuse not to attend the Coronation
 
Some members of the Coronation Executive Committee felt that Prince Philip should ride beside or behind the State Coach on horseback, or even in a separate coach. Queen Elizabeth II decreed that Philip's place with her would be in the State Coach.
Hopefully King Charles and Queen Camilla will travel in the same vehicle.
 
I have no doubt that Charles III and Queen Consort Camilla will follow the precedence of other monarchs - William IV, Edward VII, George V and George VI and have the Queen Consort travelling with the King. Queens Adelaide, Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth all travelled in the same coach as their husbands and Kings. I see no reason why the new Queen Consort wouldn't travel in the same vehicle as the King.
 
The Duke and Duchess of Sussex's perfect excuse not to attend the Coronation...

I'm counting on them to attend; this is a once in a lifetime event where Harry's father assumes his place in history in the first coronation in over half a century. Neither he nor his wife can make up an excuse and blame the absence on a three-year-old, still in diapers, to deflect responsibility.

They got away pulling that stunt with QEII, who probably wanted to see her great grandkids more often knowing her life was reaching an end anytime these past two years. I doubt KCIII will be as patient with them living in the Hollywood celebrity lifestyle of self-glorification with a large dosage of delusion. The kids need to get to know and spent time with their grandfather.

So, let's hope they have the calendar open and both to remember this is not about them and their needs, is a historic moment to bring the royal family together to show support for King Charles III.
 
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I'm counting on them to attend; this is a once in a lifetime event where Harry's father assumes his place in history in the first coronation in over half a century. Neither he nor his wife can make up an excuse and blame the absence on a three-year-old, still in diapers, to deflect responsibility.

They got away pulling that stunt with QEII, who probably wanted to see her great grandkids more often knowing her life was reaching an end anytime these past two years. I doubt KCIII will be as patient with them living in the Hollywood celebrity lifestyle of self-glorification with a large dosage of delusion. The kids need to get to know and spent time with their grandfather.

So, let's hope they have the calendar open and both to remember this is not about them and their needs, is a historic moment to bring the royal family together to show support for King Charles III.

I also believe Harry and Meghan will be there, they won't want to miss this historic and unique event.
Also, I agree that the grandchildren should spend more time with their grandfather and it was a pity that Queen Elizabeth II couldn't spend more time with the Sussexes' children, she hardly had much opportunity to get to know them.
 
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