Title for Camilla

[Saragli]

No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.

 

[HRH Kerry]

I've just found Camilla's full title;

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Hey Guys,
I'm still stuck on Camilla's title as a princess. I've noticed that she has just about every peerage ranking except for one. Are the ranks 'Marquess' and 'Marchioness' still used today or am I way off the mark? Or is it that it just doesn't apply to the Windsors? I just always thought that a marquess was heir to a dukedom. Somebody please school me!

 

[Iluvbertie]

No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.

Where you are getting confused is that normally it appears to be inherited - e.g. 1841 the instant Queen Victoria had her son he was Duke of Cornwall, 1901 the instant she died Edward's son became Duke of Cornwall, the same thing happened in 1910 - George V's son instantly became Duke of Cornwall and in 1952 when George VI died Charles instantly became Duke of Cornwall BUT

each of these holders was the ELDEST SON of the monarch.


Go back to George II and George III and we have a different situation and it is the one we have as the precedent for the titles of William IF Charles dies while the Queen still lives.

George II's son was Duke of Cornwall et. al BUT he died before his father. George II created his grandson, later George III, Prince of Wales BUT George III never held the title Duke of Cornwall because he was never the eldest son of the monarch.


That is why the argument is that IF Charles dies before the Queen William will NOT be Duke of Cornwall.

However he will inherit the title the instant Charles becomes king and will be known as the Duke of Cornwall for a period of time before becoming Prince of Wales, assuming that Charles gives him that title.

 

[branchg]

Hey Guys,
I'm still stuck on Camilla's title as a princess. I've noticed that she has just about every peerage ranking except for one. Are the ranks 'Marquess' and 'Marchioness' still used today or am I way off the mark? Or is it that it just doesn't apply to the Windsors? I just always thought that a marquess was heir to a dukedom. Somebody please school me!

Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son.

The last royal Marquessates were Milford Haven and Cambridge, both created in 1917 by George V for his cousins, Prince Louis of Battenberg (Philip's maternal grandfather), and Prince Adolphus of Teck (Queen Mary's nephew). George V ordered them to stop using their German princely and ducal styles in the UK, as a result of anti-German sentiment during WWI, and created them British peers to compensate. Both marquessates are now extinct.

Charles' title at birth was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh per letters patent of George VI (under the 1917 letters patent of George V, only the children of sons of the sovereign were entitled to the rank of Royal Highness and prince/princess of the UK).

When Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, Charles automatically became Duke of Cornwall (in England), Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick & Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince & Great Steward (all of Scotland) as the heir to the throne. In 1958, The Queen created him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester as is customary for the heir to the throne.

Camilla became a Royal Highness and Princess of the UK with marriage. Because her husband holds many peerages, she shares all of his titles, but was granted her request to be styled "Duchess of Cornwall" in Great Britain, and "Duchess of Rothesay" in Scotland by The Queen.

 

[HRH Kerry]

Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son...

Thanks branchg. So Prince William is the Marquess of something since Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall?

 

[Elspeth]

No; the dukedom of Cornwall doesn't have a hereditary marqessate that goes with it.

 

[HRH Kerry]

No; the dukedom of Cornwall doesn't have a hereditary marqessate that goes with it.

Oh...are there any dukedoms with hereditary marquessates? Or am I beating a dead horse?

 

[branchg]

Oh...are there any dukedoms with hereditary marquessates? Or am I beating a dead horse?

Yes there are, but none of the royal dukedoms do. They all have an earldom and barony as secondary titles.

 

[branchg]

Thanks branchg. So Prince William is the Marquess of something since Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall?

Most of the marquesates are held by non-royal Dukes who were granted hereditary titles through the centuries by various Sovereigns, working their way up the peerage for service to the Crown. So for instance, they may have become a Sir Tom Smith, then another ancestor became an Earl of X, another became a Marquess of X and then another became a Duke of X. So slowly they have all of these other hereditary titles inherited after the death of the last male holder, along with their primary rank of Duke of Whatever.

Hope this helps!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son.

The last royal Marquessates were Milford Haven and Cambridge, both created in 1917 by George V for his cousins, Prince Louis of Battenberg (Philip's maternal grandfather), and Prince Adolphus of Teck (Queen Mary's nephew). George V ordered them to stop using their German princely and ducal styles in the UK, as a result of anti-German sentiment during WWI, and created them British peers to compensate. Both marquessates are now extinct.

The Marquessate of Milford Haven isn't extinct according to this geneological table or the Roll of the Peerage.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://genroy.free.fr/battenberg.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmarquis%2Bof%2Bmilford%2Bhaven%2Bgeneology%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D


http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/rolls/peerage/marquesses.htm


For it to be extint there has to be no male heir to the 4th Marquis and according to this he is still alive and has a son and a brother both still living.

 

[crisiñaki]

I don't know if I'm being ignorant but why Louise isn't a princess, isn't a privilege for all the daughters of the sons of the sovereign? or the Queen sat a law or something about it?
another question: do William and Harry have any dukedom or some kind or title or "just" are Princes of the UK?

 

[Saragli]

It us unlikely that when Louise grows up she will take on royal duties. So her parents want her to have a normal life and not have the big title. Willam and Harry do not have Dukedoms yet. They are simply Princes right now.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't know if I'm being ignorant but why Louise isn't a princess, isn't a privilege for all the daughters of the sons of the sovereign? or the Queen sat a law or something about it?
another question: do William and Harry have any dukedom or some kind or title or "just" are Princes of the UK?

Like Camilla is not using the title Princess of Wales that she is entitled to use as the wife of the Prince of Wales Louise isn't using the style HRH Princess even though she is entitled to do so.

This was done at the request of her parents and is probably due to the fact that she probably won't undertake royal duties but will have to live a more normal life.

 

[crisiñaki]

Like Camilla is not using the title Princess of Wales that she is entitled to use as the wife of the Prince of Wales Louise isn't using the style HRH Princess even though she is entitled to do so.

This was done at the request of her parents and is probably due to the fact that she probably won't undertake royal duties but will have to live a more normal life.

But she actually helds the HRH title?

 

[Margrethe II]

If I am correct...

HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is the childs actual birthright title, however, by the decision of her parents and the approval of HM the Queen is publically known & referred to as, Lady Louise (ne; Mountbatten-Windsor).

When she comes of age, it is her Ladyships decision (solely) as to whether or not she wishes to keep her current title (which I think she shall), or infact revert back to the title & status of HRH & Princess of the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland.

'MII"

 

[crisiñaki]

If I am correct...

HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is the childs actual birthright title, however, by the decision of her parents and the approval of HM the Queen is publically known & referred to as, Lady Louise (ne; Mountbatten-Windsor).

When she comes of age, it is her Ladyships decision (solely) as to whether or not she wishes to keep her current title (which I think she shall), or infact revert back to the title & status of HRH & Princess of the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland.

'MII"

Thank you!!!

 

[Margrethe II]

Thank you!!!

You're welcome...

"MII"

 

[branchg]

The Marquessate of Milford Haven isn't extinct according to this geneological table or the Roll of the Peerage.

For it to be extint there has to be no male heir to the 4th Marquis and according to this he is still alive and has a son and a brother both still living.

My mistake! You are correct. George Mountbatten (great-grandson of Prince Louis) is the 4th Marquess and has a son, Henry, Earl of Medina.

 

[Skydragon]

However he will inherit the title the instant Charles becomes king and will be known as the Duke of Cornwall for a period of time before becoming Prince of Wales, assuming that Charles gives him that title.

A lot of people miss the fact that when Charles becomes King, it is up to him to decide whether to offer the title Prince of Wales to William.

 

[Zonk]

So who is Ivar Mountbatten? Do I have the name right?

In regards to Lady Louise, yes she might not have perform in official duties but I doubt she will lead a truly "normal" life. Not to wish harm on the little girl, but she is the granddaughter of a Monarch and the media will need a new "princess" to focus on in about 16 years or so. Zara has had her fill....Beatrice and Eugenie are getting older and you will be seeing them more in the public eye.

 

[HRH Kerry]

Most of the marquesates are held by non-royal Dukes who were granted hereditary titles through the centuries by various Sovereigns, working their way up the peerage for service to the Crown. So for instance, they may have become a Sir Tom Smith, then another ancestor became an Earl of X, another became a Marquess of X and then another became a Duke of X. So slowly they have all of these other hereditary titles inherited after the death of the last male holder, along with their primary rank of Duke of Whatever.

Hope this helps!

branchg,
Thanks to you and Elspeth. With the two of you I might just learn something yet!

 

[AgnesK]

Thank you very much for that post

 

[Iluvbertie]

So who is Ivar Mountbatten? Do I have the name right?

Ivar Mountbatten is George's younger brother.

He would only succeed to the title if his older brother and nephew both died without further legitimate male issue.

 

[Iluvbertie]

In regards to Lady Louise, yes she might not have perform in official duties but I doubt she will lead a truly "normal" life. Not to wish harm on the little girl, but she is the granddaughter of a Monarch and the media will need a new "princess" to focus on in about 16 years or so. Zara has had her fill....Beatrice and Eugenie are getting older and you will be seeing them more in the public eye.

Whether she is called Lady or Princess the fact that she is the granddaughter of a monarch means that she will get the attention when she reaches that age anyway.

Afterall Zara has no title such as Lady or Princess and gets the attention as did Lady Sarah Chatto (Princess Margaret's daughter and therefore granddaughter of a monarch to show another example).

With or without the title she is still a member of the RF.

 

[branchg]

Whether she is called Lady or Princess the fact that she is the granddaughter of a monarch means that she will get the attention when she reaches that age anyway.

Afterall Zara has no title such as Lady or Princess and gets the attention as did Lady Sarah Chatto (Princess Margaret's daughter and therefore granddaughter of a monarch to show another example).

With or without the title she is still a member of the RF.

Until the Queen issues a Royal Warrant, Louise is automatically a Royal Highness and Princess of the UK under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V as the daughter of a son of the Sovereign, just like Beatrice and Eugenie. Her style as Lady Windsor means nothing.

It's rather strange to me that Louise would be styled differently, but I guess they are leaving the door open to future changes with issuance of new letters patent governing the style and title of members of the royal family.

 

[branchg]

A lot of people miss the fact that when Charles becomes King, it is up to him to decide whether to offer the title Prince of Wales to William.

Well, every male heir to the throne since 1301 has been created Prince of Wales, so it's a foregone conclusion he will be.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Well, every male heir to the throne since 1301 has been created Prince of Wales, so it's a foregone conclusion he will be.

Tradition suggests that at some time William will become Prince of Wales BUT it is the monarch's peroragative (sp) unlike the title Duke of Cornwall, which is automatically his once his father becomes King.

Charles may wait 5 minutes, a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade or anything time period he chooses.
It is Charles decision as to when, and therefore if, he creates William Prince of Wales.
He might plan on making the creation after a year and die before that happens and thus William is not created Prince of Wales.
It is Charles' decision and not automatic, which is the point we are making.

 

[Warren]

The senior Mountbattens

So who is Ivar Mountbatten?

Well off-topic from "Title for Camilla", but since there's nothing much more to add to that subject, we'll go off on a tangent...

Lord Ivar Mountbatten is a descendant of Queen Victoria.

VRI > Princess Alice (m Grand Duke of Hesse and bei Rhine) > Princess Victoria (m Prince Louis of Battenberg, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven) > Prince George of Battenberg, 2nd Marquess of Milford Haven > David, 3rd Marquess (d 1970).

The 3rd Marquess had two sons:
> George Mountbatten, 4th Marquess of Milford Haven (b 1961), who has two children:
- Harry, Earl of Medina (b 1991)
- Lady Tatiana Mountbatten (b 1990)

> Lord Ivar Mountbatten (b 1963), who has three daughters:
- Ella (b 1996)
- Alexandra (Alix) (b 1998)
- Louise (Luli) (b 2002)

source: Queen Victoria's Descendants 1997 and Companion Volume 2004, by Marlene Eilers.

 

[Frothy]

Interesting speculation: Branch, you guess the Queen would change Camilla's title if Charles predeceased her?

To me she could just go on being Duchess of Cornwall and then when William had a son after acceding, the HRH the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall.

Or maybe they would go back to that rather old, rather lovely useage: HRH the Princess Dowager, as I believe Henry styled Catherine of Aragorn before and after her marriage to him.

I wondered last night what would happen (God forbid) if the Queen died suddenly and unexpectedly, of a heart attack or something. In such an unprepared cas Charles and Camilla would be King and Queen, and nothing else, for Camilla would not have yet been gazetted as Princess Consort. So if that were to happen - a sudden death - then there would have to be an active downgrading, vs, if the Queen got sick, they could see the writing on the wall and gazette Camilla before Charles' accessio.

Perhaps in this scenario the British public would say "Don't bother" "Oi, Charles, leave it! " and she could just be Queen - as should have happened all along.

 

[milla Ca]

Royal diarist insists Britain´s Camilla will be Queen

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006237606

Britain´s Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, will be Queen, according to a close friend of the late Queen Mother.