Title for Camilla

[Saragli]

The safest way is for her to become HM Queen Consort. HRH Princess Consort makes it confusing and degrading. Best to stick with tradition. When the engagment was first announced people were mad that she was going to be HRH but now they have accepted her and see what a great royal she is. I think the same will happen when she is Queen.

 

[branchg]

when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called

No he cannot, because Parliament is the sole arbitrator of the law, not the Crown. To allow Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort requires legislation to be passed in the UK (and the Crown Commonwealth nations), in which it is stated she will not hold the style, title and rights of Queen Consort.

Once passed, Charles could then issue letters patent granting Camilla the title and style of HRH The Princess Consort of the UK with precedence before all other princes and princesses of the realm, similar to what was done in 1957 for Prince Philip.

This is the only way Camilla could assume the title of Princess Consort.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, Buckingham Palace can announce that HM Queen Camilla has elected to be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and I don't see what anyone could do about it. As far as I understand the law, the only prohibition on calling yourself something other than your legal name is when there's some sort of nefarious intent.

 

[branchg]

Well, Buckingham Palace can announce that HM Queen Camilla has elected to be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and I don't see what anyone could do about it. As far as I understand the law, the only prohibition on calling yourself something other than your legal name is when there's some sort of nefarious intent.

No. Camilla cannot (nor Charles III for that matter) make a decision contrary to common law without the Sovereign being so advised by the Prime Minister. Assuming this was the case, the announcement would be that letters patent were issued to create Camilla "HRH The Princess Consort" and confirming her precedence as the first lady in the land beside HM.

Given the fact there is no legal justification, the Prime Minister would have to consult with constitutional experts and advise the Cabinet and Parliamentary Council of the conclusion before advising the Sovereign. They may have already done this in preparation for the future, but it has not been clarified.

It was stated before the marriage ceremony that legislation would have to be considered when the time came, which leads me to believe there is no consensus for a new precedent. Given the difficulty of getting it through each parliament of the crown commonwealth nations as well, I think it highly unlikely this will come to pass.

 

[Elspeth]

No. Camilla cannot (nor Charles III for that matter) make a decision contrary to common law without the Sovereign being so advised by the Prime Minister.

What part of it is contrary to common law? When Charles becomes King, she's legally Queen; she's choosing not to call herself HM Queen Camilla for reasons of diplomacy or whatever, not with intent to defraud or commit crimes. If they decide that she should be informally referred to as HRH the Princess Consort, who's going to stop them, and how are they going to do it?

 

[Saragli]

I thought that the soverign as the Fount of Honours, could just make up a title for anyone with out the consent of parliment. Did the queen need parliament to grant Andrew the title of Duke of York? I think that Chalres would just give her the title HRH The Princess Consort and make a letter saying she is to be refered to by her lesser title the same way the queen did when she said that Camilla will use her Duchess style. I dont think she will be Princess Consort. I think the times will change in the future. People are much more accepting and the grandness of the coronation and ceremonies will put a spell on people and want her to be Queen. That brief lapse of rationality between a soverigns death and coronation is a good time to introduce her as Queen if people are still hostile.

 

[branchg]

What part of it is contrary to common law? When Charles becomes King, she's legally Queen; she's choosing not to call herself HM Queen Camilla for reasons of diplomacy or whatever, not with intent to defraud or commit crimes. If they decide that she should be informally referred to as HRH the Princess Consort, who's going to stop them, and how are they going to do it?

Well, you're right, assuming the Prime Minister agrees it is a non-issue for the wife of the King to be styled below the rank of Queen. All I'm saying is legally there is no precedent for it and raises questions which require parliamentary clarification and constitutional review before a statement is made. The Sovereign reigns, but does not rule.

If everyone agrees that she can be legally HM The Queen, but styled as HRH The Princess Consort without legislation, then problem solved.

 

[Elspeth]

I agree with you, however, that it's very unlikely to come to that. If the Queen lives for more than a couple of years or so, which appears to be very likely, the objection to Camilla becoming Queen will be really just out on the fringes. I assume the statement about her being Princess Consort was made in response to feeling at the time the statement was made, not in response to the likely climate at the time when it became fact.

 

[branchg]

I thought that the soverign as the Fount of Honours, could just make up a title for anyone with out the consent of parliment. Did the queen need parliament to grant Andrew the title of Duke of York? I think that Chalres would just give her the title HRH The Princess Consort and make a letter saying she is to be refered to by her lesser title the same way the queen did when she said that Camilla will use her Duchess style.

It's different because Camilla still became a princess with the rank of Royal Highness upon marriage to Charles. As the fount of honour, the Queen agreed she would be styled by ONE of her titles, Duchess of Cornwall, rather than another, Princess of Wales. She shares her husband's titles reflecting his peerages, one of which is being used without affecting her legal position as the wife of the Prince of Wales.

Once Charles becomes HM The King, she is automatically HM Queen Camilla and nothing else. There is no other style or title to assume other than Queen without raising the legal question of her rank as the wife of the King. Since the Sovereign represents the Crown, he must take advice from his ministers first, then issue letters patent to grant her the lesser style and title.

Effectively, she would have to reliniquish her rank legally as Queen in order to be Princess Consort, which is not the case now. She is legally a princess of the UK with the rank of HRH through marriage regardless of her style as a Duchess.

 

[Saragli]

Its funny how this nonsense becomes so serious. I think in a couple of years there will be very little objection to her becoming Queen Consort. I think by the end of 2006 the mention of Camilla becoming Princess Consort on the official British Monarchy website will mysteriously disappear. I dont think they will release a statment but it will act as a hint.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, if the loan of the Delhi Durbar tiara wasn't a large step in that direction, I'll be very surprised.

 

[branchg]

Its funny how this nonsense becomes so serious. I think in a couple of years there will be very little objection to her becoming Queen Consort. I think by the end of 2006 the mention of Camilla becoming Princess Consort on the official British Monarchy website will mysteriously disappear. I dont think they will release a statment but it will act as a hint.

Like I've always said, either she was worthy to be his consort now or she never will be. Once the Prime Minister, the Queen and Archbishop of Canterbury all gave their approval for Charles and Camilla to marry, the question really was over the day of the wedding. She is legally entitled to be Queen Camilla as the wife of the King when it comes to pass.

Styling her as Duchess of Cornwall is sensitive (and likely would have been done even if Charles had married someone less controversial) to the fact Diana passed away only a year after the divorce, retained a style as Princess of Wales, and was the mother of the future heir and spare to the throne.

 

[branchg]

Well, if the loan of the Delhi Durbar tiara wasn't a large step in that direction, I'll be very surprised.

I agree!! It certainly sent the message that The Queen believes Camilla should assume her rightful rank someday.

 

[dakodas]

Like I've always said, either she was worthy to be his consort now or she never will be. Once the Prime Minister, the Queen and Archbishop of Canterbury all gave their approval for Charles and Camilla to marry, the question really was over the day of the wedding. She is legally entitled to be Queen Camilla as the wife of the King when it comes to pass.

Styling her as Duchess of Cornwall is sensitive (and likely would have been done even if Charles had married someone less controversial) to the fact Diana passed away only a year after the divorce, retained a style as Princess of Wales, and was the mother of the future heir and spare to the throne.

Duchess of Cornwall and Princess of Wales are NOT styles-they are titles. HRH is a style.

 

[Saragli]

They are titles but she styles herself The Duchess of Cornwall.

 

[branchg]

Duchess of Cornwall and Princess of Wales are NOT styles-they are titles. HRH is a style.

And in the case of Diana, with divorce, her title held through marriage became a style as the former wife of Prince Charles. Same story with Sarah.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I've just found Camilla's full title;

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

 

[Will's princess]

Wow! That's some title for one person and I know other royals have even more. Imagine if she had to introduce herself to everyone using her full title. "Hello I'm Her Royal Highness...um...um!!" LOL! IMO it is up to Charles when he becomes King what she should be called but i think Camilla will have a lot of say in it as it is my opinion that she did not start a relationship to cause uproar and so would not do anything which could potentially harm Charles' reign and so if the public decide against a Queen Camilla she will happily take the title as Princess Consort. I think it will be Charles who will be more upset by a Princess Consort than Camilla herself.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Let us assume she becomes Queen ;

I think her title will be :

Her Majesty, Queen Camilla , Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm not sure where the 'other realms and territories' comes in. She'll also be;

Queen of Antigua and Barbuda, Queen of the Bahamas, Queen of Barbados, Queen of Belize, Queen of Canada, Queen of Grenada, Queen of Jamaica, Queen of Saint Kitts and Nevis, Queen of Saint Lucia, Queen of St Vincent and the Grenadines, Queen of Australia, Queen of New Zealand, Queen of Papua New Guinea, Queen of the Solomon Islands and Queen of Tuvalu

I think that's grand enough! And of course, she'll also be a Lady of the Garter and will have the personal order of Charles III - and probably Elizabeth II by that time. Impressive eh?

 

[pollyemma]

Let us assume she becomes Queen...

very impressive! there will always be those who will contine to call her camilla parker-bowles.

 

[HRH Kerry]

Let us assume she becomes Queen; I think her title will be : Her Majesty, Queen Camilla , Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm not sure where the 'other realms and territories' comes in. She'll also be; Queen of Antigua and Barbuda, Queen of the Bahamas, Queen of Barbados, Queen of Belize, Queen of Canada, Queen of Grenada, Queen of Jamaica, Queen of Saint Kitts and Nevis, Queen of Saint Lucia, Queen of St Vincent and the Grenadines, Queen of Australia, Queen of New Zealand, Queen of Papua New Guinea, Queen of the Solomon Islands and Queen of Tuvalu

Impressive?! Hell, you had me at Her Majesty.

 

[branchg]

She will be "Her Majesty Queen Camilla, Queen Consort of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". She's not Queen Regina of the UK or Commonwealth Crown Countries.

 

[branchg]

I've just found Camilla's full title;

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland

Legally, she is all of the above. But, she is styled HRH The Duchess of Cornwall (Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland) by order of the Queen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Legally, she is all of the above. But, she is styled HRH The Duchess of Cornwall (Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland) by order of the Queen.

When did the Queen give this 'order'?

I have only read that she decided to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall and intends to be known as Princess Consort.

In none of the articles I read at the time of the engagement or since has it been suggested that the Queen actually ordered Camilla to adopt the title Duchess of Cornwall - approving her use of that title is not the same thing as ordering it.


Please provide a link to the details of this 'order'.

 

[pollyemma]

When did the Queen give this 'order'?

I think you're right. Camilla's title is hers by virtue of her marriage.

 

[BeatrixFan]

She will be Queen of all those countries though won't she? Albeit in the status of a Queen Consort.

 

[Skydragon]

What a pity she didn't use Camilla, Princess of Scotland.

It seems unseemly and unfair to say, Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall!

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well it's not incorrect to call them The Prince and Princess of Wales. Because that's just what they are. For years people were able to call Diana 'Princess Diana' with no problems at all - so I intend to use Princess Camilla if I like.

 

[Will's princess]

I agree with you BeatrixFan, I will call her Princess Camilla too if I like.

 

[branchg]

When did the Queen give this 'order'?

I have only read that she decided to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall and intends to be known as Princess Consort.

In none of the articles I read at the time of the engagement or since has it been suggested that the Queen actually ordered Camilla to adopt the title Duchess of Cornwall - approving her use of that title is not the same thing as ordering it.


Please provide a link to the details of this 'order'.

The Queen should have issued a Royal Warrant stating what Camilla's style and title would be, just as she should have with Louise Wessex. She didn't do so in order to leave the door open to a different outcome for both.

However, she still approved and gave assent, as she would to any change in the future.