The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 2: December 2020-March 2021


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The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.

Thank you for your post it is an excellent summary of the situation.
I do not intend taking sides in the debate but I am a bit fed up of blanket statements that staff in the palace were / are lazy or workshy.
Saying nothing or putting forward valid points are more successful.
 
I agree with you that it really depends on the job you do, industry you are in and the company's work environment (in terms values or how you fit in). Personality does come into play as well.

For example, if you are an improviser, you might find a job or company that has rigid schedules, difficult and even frustrating. In contrast, those who are planners would find it easier. The same could be said for someone who is a free-spirit and opinionated finding a workplace with rigorous protocol, very restrictive.

Plus to be at the top position of an organisation is not as simple as giving order to your subordinate. I’m not sure Meghan had multiple persons (staff) work for her before she married Harry. Considering she did a side jobs, I don’t think she’s at the level of an actor who has a whole entourage of manager, stylist, helper etc working for her. On set, she was at the “same level” as the make-up artist, fellow actors, and such. So other than culture clash (I’m not talking about work ethic, but the way you communicate), she might haven’t find the “gist” on how to manage people working for her.

There’s a reason why there’s a course on how to be a good manager. Some subordinate might less capable than other, but hovering behind them and directing their every move just because you can’t 100% trust them to do the job just like you want most of the time is just counterproductive, and worse if you do it openly in front of their colleagues. There’s also an art of reprimanding your subordinate, calling them stupid even behind the close door is never a good approach.

I had a very demanding manager and he’s an owl, his brain only starts working after 4 pm so 10 pm call or 2 am email was not unusual (my job was not the kind of Mon-Fri 9 to 5 job, but sort of 4-weeks-24/7-on-and-2-full-weeks-off kind of job), but he’s very popular amongst us. He knew how to manage and to delegate, to give credit when it’s due, and how to communicate when someone made mistake (and to say sorry to us, his subordinate, when he’s the one at fault).

On the Guardian article above
And the war of words is unlikely to abate. “This is an institution that is meant to live by the motto ‘never complain, never explain’,” said Scobie. “But it spends its whole time complaining and explaining, and doing even more damage in the process.”
I kind of want to ask him who’s the person he’s been referring to?:whistling:

In the short term, it has been suggested one explanation for the story’s emergence now could be the summary judgment in Meghan’s favour in her privacy and copyright case against Associated Newspapers, a legal victory which prevented a trial in which courtiers would have given evidence. A recent Sunday Times story suggested senior royal sources were “shocked” by the outcome.
I’m with Murphy (or Bland?) here. I doubt the palace and those people related in this bullying debacle know about the content of the interview, especially with the story on how CBS has safe-guard it tightly.

And this narrative of “blame the Cambridge for whatever wrong that happens to the Sussex” is quite interesting. It’s Kate’s fault that the two Duchesses are not besties, it’s William’s fault when Harry made blunder or unhappy. Can I say that it might be an attempt of smearing campaign against the Cambridges?:ermm::cool:
 
The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.

It is mind boggling isn't it?
when you compare these people resumes to Meghan's. I mean it's like the joke are writing themselves.
I am far more impressed by these people, even those in the low levels, because I have no doubt getting a palace position, even a assistant to assistant one, probably requires you to have an impressive resume.



Also I really wish her friends would stop they are doing way too much. This does not paint them in a good light at all. in fact: 'like attracts like', ala Jessica and her bullying, comes to mind and makes me believe that they essentially mean girls pretending to be nice too - these are a group of very privileged individuals who talk about compassion and supporting victims.. but I guess one of their own is alleged?

They need to realize the immense difference in power dynamic between the woman they know as their friend and the people who worked beneath her.
Someone can be super nice to you because you are their equal, their friend, but be a total bully to their subordinate (I can attest to this first hand as a survivor of workplace bullying). one can be smart and cruel, funny and humiliating, one does not contradict the other.
Their experience can be 100% different from someone else with her.

Just don't say anything! that's always the safest.
See the Jussie Smollett and Ellen situations.

And given how Meghan is now talking about the BRF and literally victim shaming the allegation victims these friends should actually be weary that if they ever get her bad side.. they would be next!
 
:previous:

I agree with your general assessment of many people behaving differently to subordinates than to 'equals' but I am not quite sure if we can accuse the Duchess of shaming victims at this point. She has not said anything about the matter AFAIK.
 
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The interesting thing is that, looking at the profiles above , what strikes me is that none of them (a director of strategy at GCHQ _the UK's equivalent to the NSA in the US_ and Principal Private Secretary to the PM ; a former employee at the Royal Bank of Scotland; a chief press secretary at HM's Treasury; a former aide to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, etc.) fit the image claimed by some posters here of "lazy Brits" who could not handle Meghan's "American work ethic" and "perfectionism".


In fact, it is instructive to compare Meghan's "superior" American CV to Simon Case's for example.

Yes, none of these people just happened to land in their jobs by accident after a lifetime of laziness and low pressure. They’re all accomplished people who were more knowledgeable than Meghan about the new work environment and professional culture she’d married into.

It was Meghan’s job to adapt to her new role and fit into the organization, not the other way around. The BRF wasn’t going to turn itself into an American production company to suit her.

Speaking of cultural differences, how about the one in the American entertainment industry where people are allowed to get away with essentially any sort of bad behaviour once they reach a certain level of success? Bad attitudes, raging drug problems, bullying, harassment, spousal abuse, rape - it’s all good as long as the person remains profitable. The support team around the person in question works night and day to keep them happy and their behaviour out of the press. Not everyone is like that, and Meghan wasn’t successful enough that the worst of this would apply to her - it would have been easy enough to replace her or write her out of Suits - but this was the sea she swam in before she married Harry, her big break.
 
I think it is a long held myth about American work practices and often likely to be perpetuated by the British themselves for whatever reason. It is nonsense. The teams work very hard and are very poorly renumerated for it. And they all have high class careers outside or within the royal circle.

Knauf himself is American although I am not sure about where he grew up.

I think it is fair really that this may give a balanced view. I think it's fair it is looked into.

Much of the myth is tied in to Americans attitudes about work. It defines who they(we) are much more than in Europe.

An Italian friend described it this way... " Americans live to work. Italians work to live".

He said that taking a few hours off to lunch or nap during the day would not raise eyebrows in Southern Europe especially....but in the US it would be unheard of.

I much, MUCH prefer the European way.:cool:
 
Much of the myth is tied in to Americans attitudes about work. It defines who they(we) are much more than in Europe.

An Italian friend described it this way... " Americans live to work. Italians work to live".

He said that taking a few hours off to lunch or nap during the day would not raise eyebrows in Southern Europe especially....but in the US it would be unheard of.

I much, MUCH prefer the European way.:cool:

Well Southern Europe is very different from the North. And the Southern lot do look lazy compared to the northerners but the very real difference in climate slows down life no end.
 
:previous:

I agree with your general assessment of many people behaving differently to subordinates than to 'equals' but I am not quite sure if we can accuse the Duchess of shaming victims at this point. She has not said anything about the matter AFAIK.

I agree but one also can't deny that some people will look down at people in higher position than them because they feel they are superior. Like women in a all male space.... or POC positions of power. We have seen incidents all last year where people accused people of things and weaponized parts of themselves only to be discovered it was false.

So yes lets have a true investigation to see what happened.

---

In other news...

The Mail on Sunday has been ordered to post a statement/apology on their front page in the same front size as their articles about the letter. It has to run for a week.

 
That was the liberal view? That was an a appalling view. To dismiss people's allegations of bullying. Meghan is not some baby fignting agai st the msn. If anything g the staff were. That they were grossly misinformed is fine but thatsegment was awful.

You misunderstood my comment. I was giving a general description of the show in response to a comment that was made about it by a previous poster about it. I was not addressing anything about this specific situation. I am appalled by her and Harry's behavior. I am happy the palace is giving the former employees if H&M a voice. Furthermore, I am appalled by Harry and Meghan's behavior I feel they are a couple of whiners who have thrown everything the Queen has done for them back into her face. They have disrespected her and Prince Philip and the entire family. I hope the results of the review of bullying will be published and if it is found that Meghan and Harry bullied their staff, they will be publicly admonished by the palace and their Duke and Duchess titles taken away.
 
You misunderstood my comment. I was giving a general description of the show in response to a comment that was made about it by a previous poster about it. I was not addressing anything about this specific situation. I am appalled by her and Harry's behavior. I am happy the palace is giving the former employees if H&M a voice. Furthermore, I am appalled by Harry and Meghan's behavior I feel they are a couple of whiners who have thrown everything the Queen has done for them back into her face. They have disrespected her and Prince Philip and the entire family. I hope the results of the review of bullying will be published and if it is found that Meghan and Harry bullied their staff, they will be publicly admonished by the palace and their Duke and Duchess titles taken away.

The palace /queen can't take their ducal titles away..
 
Much of the myth is tied in to Americans attitudes about work. It defines who they(we) are much more than in Europe.

An Italian friend described it this way... " Americans live to work. Italians work to live".

He said that taking a few hours off to lunch or nap during the day would not raise eyebrows in Southern Europe especially....but in the US it would be unheard of.

I much, MUCH prefer the European way.:cool:


But (many ?) Brits don't like to think of themselves as "Europeans" (see Brexit as a case in point). Furthermore, Italians are different from Germans, or Swedes, or Dutchmen. In fact, I can tell you from personal experience (my family is part Italian, part Portuguese and, in a very smaller part Spanish) that even southern Europeans are not equal to each other (for example, the Portuguese have a fairly different culture from the Italians and the Spaniards). And I am not even getting into Eastern Europeans like the Poles, the Czechs or the Hungarians.


Bottom line, I don't want to get into an argument which may turn political (because of Brexiteers on one side and EU-enthusiasts/Eurofederalists on the other), but "European" is actually an artificial concept that is sometimes used to describe 400 million+ very diverse people.


Finally, I also take the claim that "Americans live to work" with a grain of salt. As I see it, many Americans work longer hours than in some other countries or have multiple jobs because, quite frankly, live is tougher in the US than in other advanced economies due to the lack of a proper social network or welfare state. So many people have to work harder to have a decent living. I also think it is fair to say, compared to other countries I know, that the American workplace is more competitive/brutal and that Americans tend to be culturally more driven by ambition or a desire to be "successful"in life (also because, again, not being a social-democratic country, it is harder to be a "loser" or just mediocre in America).



On the other hand, however, there are things that strike me in America. I went to Graduate School in a STEM field and I can say that, over 50 % of the PhD students were definitely born overseas (mostly Indian and Chinese, but some Europeans, Russians, Middle-Easterns and other Asians too). And then there were American-born kids who were first generation Americans (again, many East Asians and Indians). There may be more traditional WASP Americans in more "lucrative fields" like Business or Law school, but it surprises me how many young people in those demographics shy way from "hard science" and engineering careers. Does that mean American students are "too lazy" for science or math?



Anyway, I won't go any further because I am obviously off topic. It is just that this attitude of assuming Meghan is somehow superior to the Palace staff because she is American and they are lazy Brits irritates me somewhat.
 
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I heard today on the TV from a former royal reporter that the bullying accusations refer to them and that Harry is involved too.
 
I agree but one also can't deny that some people will look down at people in higher position than them because they feel they are superior. Like women in a all male space.... or POC positions of power. We have seen incidents all last year where people accused people of things and weaponized parts of themselves only to be discovered it was false.

So yes lets have a true investigation to see what happened.


Certainly, there are such people and such incidents have recently come to light - thankfully! But I would like to add to that that Kensington Palace was not an all male space and that the employees who have accused Meghan of bullying are all women. So in this particular case, there is no indication of male subordinates not accepting a woman in power.

Knauf, who raised concerned, has been described by the papers as American and politically liberal. I'm just saying that because this situation tends to get framed as "men in grey suits" being unaccepting of Meghan as a woman & a woman of color. But the grey suits are at Buckingham Palace and at Kensington Palace, Meghan worked with a younger crowd, many of them women.
 
While that friend will now be ghosted - what is that saying no good deed goes unpunished.
 
But (many ?) Brits don't like to think of themselves as "Europeans" (see Brexit as a case in point). Furthermore, Italians are different from Germans, or Swedes, or Dutchmen. In fact, I can tell you from personal experience (my family is part Italian, part Portuguese and, in a very smaller part Spanish) that even southern Europeans are not equal to each other (for example, the Portuguese have a fairly different culture from the Italians and the Spaniards). And I am not even getting into Eastern Europeans like the Poles, the Czechs or the Hungarians.

Poland, Czechia and Hungary are located in Central Europe.
 
Poland, Czechia and Hungary are located in Central Europe.


According to the UN Statistics Division, they are located in Eastern Europe.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoscheme.svg


The classification above does not include the category "Central Europe" though (only Western, Eastern, Northern and Southern). The CIA World Factbook distingushes between Western, Central and Eastern Europe as you did, but I guess this is a matter only of terminology that is not relevant to the point I was trying to make.
 
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While that friend will now be ghosted - what is that saying no good deed goes unpunished.

You forgot that "/s"
You know this is part of the PR to discredit the victims.

Some of her other famous friends are talking.


Poland, Czechia and Hungary are located in Central Europe.

At least Poland (and Czech republic) are most certainly not considered "central Europe" by any european.
Sincerely,
A european.
 
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...I don't think it has anything to do with work ethic and more so cultural differences and the way certain people are, certain personalities will clash.
grrrr too the staff editing my posts
 
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...I don't think it has anything to do ith work ethic and more so cultural differences and the way certain people are, certain personalities will clash.

I'm sure that there were some culture clashes. But what's being alleged here goes beyond misunderstandings or "running a tight ship". There are accusations of creating almost PTSD among people work previously came from other high powered, very stressful environments who then accepted other jobs in even more high stress environments in other words people who aren't likely to run to complain about a genuine misunderstanding or if things get lost in translation. Now journalists from respected publications are going "yeah we heard about this at the time at it was awful".

All from two people who have made "be kind" and "are you okay?" their slogans and decrying bullying. Instead of calling people who are less powerful than them liars or stooges, maybe they should welcome an investigation that will clear them or make life in "The Institution" better for everyone.
 
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While that friend will now be ghosted - what is that saying no good deed goes unpunished.

I think that the friend probably posted with Harry and Meghan's permission. With how protective they are of Archie I find it very unlikely that someone who claims to be such a close friend would post a picture of him without their knowledge or approval. I actually wonder if it's some sort of "damage control" from the Sussex end- one of the most low-effort ways to boost your image is to "bring out the baby" in a sense. They've been known to have friends release things or leak info on their behalf, and it really wouldn't be a total shock to me if they'd asked her to include a picture of him.
 
According to the UN Statistics Division, they are located in Eastern Europe.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoscheme.svg


The classification above does not include the category "Central Europe" though (only Western, Eastern, Northern and Southern). The CIA World Factbook distingushes between Western, Central and Eastern Europe as you did, but I guess this is a matter only of terminology that is not relevant to the point I was trying to make.

I guess the point here is that, on a Royalty forum, it is better for an American not to make sweeping statements about the different types of European! It's never going to go down well.
 
If there was an image of Archie, it has now been removed.
 
The stories that at the start Harry was trying to mediate between his wife and the staff but soon started to completely take her side is an interesting take from the interview with the author of the piece in The Times. This suggests that somehow Harry at first understood that things weren't going well and that Meghan's way of going about things wasn't what was expected of her but it seems that wasn't that comfortable being the 'middleman' and instead of making sure his wife understood what could be reasonably expected of her, he fully followed her lead that she was unjustly treated by 'The Firm'.
 
I heard today on the TV from a former royal reporter that the bullying accusations refer to them and that Harry is involved too.

The original Times article said that Harry had sought to stop any inquiry into reports of his wife's conduct. I wasn't aware that he was accused of bullying as well. Very disappointing if true.

Re geographical divisions of Europe. I know that the part of Europe discussed has been categorised differently at various times so everyone's right!. It's an area that older British history books sometimes refer to by the German term Mittleuropa. Central Europe is an area referenced in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I suspect the Austro-Hungarian Empire was often referred to as central Europe. Maybe Russia up to the Urals is the real eastern Europe?:confused:

Don't want to start a geography dispute on top of all the other drama.:lol:
 
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Assuming that the Mail is capable of some accurate reportage...

It was said that the ‘grey men’ were well aware of the bullying that so traumatized some of the staffers, and that no action was taken to report it further, to the HR Dignity of Work department.

If the Sussex behavior so ‘destroyed’ some of their aides, then Senior Staff should have reported it. Why didn’t they? Maybe these older, more worldly employees were less likely to identify the ordinary conflicts of a busy office as anything other than the usual back and forth of daily work life. These aides were described as ‘traumatized’ and ‘broken’.

Maybe it didn’t look that way to those who should have taken it to a higher level.
I’m inclined to think this situation has been dramatized and exaggerated by some who waited years to bring it up.

Most of us have worked in situations where the “boss” upset us; but we let it go and kept on working.
 
It was said that the ‘grey men’ were well aware of the bullying that so traumatized some of the staffers, and that no action was taken to report it further, to the HR Dignity of Work department.

If the Sussex behavior so ‘destroyed’ some of their aides, then Senior Staff should have reported it. Why didn’t they? Maybe these older, more worldly employees were less likely to identify the ordinary conflicts of a busy office as anything other than the usual back and forth of daily work life. These aides were described as ‘traumatized’ and ‘broken’.

Maybe it didn’t look that way to those who should have taken it to a higher level.
I’m inclined to think this situation has been dramatized and exaggerated by some who waited years to bring it up.

Most of us have worked in situations where the “boss” upset us; but we let it go and kept on working.

Maybe. Or maybe they were covering it up or downplaying it to protect Meghan and her image which would, in fact, be the total opposite of what she claims. Based on reporting I read yesterday (I don't remember where) the Palace inquiry may not be complete until 2022 but would be available in the Household Reports for 2022 so would become available for all to read. My guess would be that they knew that if an investigation was begun earlier it too would end up in the Household Report because that's how these things are done and, should Meghan and Harry have decided to stay or to come back, it could have looked incredibly bad for them (depending on the results or findings, obviously). It makes quite a lot of sense, actually, to say that they probably didn't push for an earlier investigation and downplayed what was happening in the hopes that with time, things would smooth over, staff could be transferred, discussions with Meghan and Harry regarding their behavior could be had, etc. and that they might be able to be retained since at that time they had not yet begun to launch their "we're leaving" grenades.
 
I'm not sure that the investigation into the bullying allegations is an investigation of Meghan and Harry. It is more likely an investigation into how these complaints were handled by senior staff. It's not like Meghan and Harry would have been fired - he is the grandson of the Queen. However, the palace may have guidelines on how to handle complaints about the family members and the issue is whether they were followed.

If it were true, and we don't know that it is, I imagine that if complaints about Harry and Meghan persisted and senior staff couldn't deal with it, the complaints would have been brought to Prince Charles's attention. If he decided not to intervene or the intervention was unsuccessful, there is not a lot that could have been done. I suspect they would be very careful about who would be assigned to work with Meghan and Harry (some people can withstand negative treatment) Some of this is the perils of working for a family owned company or working for a bad boss who owns the company. People have to make choices about their careers.
 
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