"The Diana Chronicles" by Tina Brown (2007)


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Sarah's reminds me of something that I would see on Public Television and Tina's reminds me of something on a Made for TV movie. If that makes sense?
Good comparison. With regards to historical value about the era, it still reads, to me, as written by someone who wasn't quite there. :flowers:

Each person reading the same publication or even being at the same place or time, will take away different impressions. That is why you have people following cult A, B, C or none at all.
 
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Good comparison. With regards to historical value about the era, it still reads, to me, as written by someone who wasn't quite there. :flowers:

That's an impression I often have: if you have no idea how the life of the British upper classes used to be at that time, you don't really understand what was going on. Neither Charles nor Diana were middle class people so trying to explain their behaviour with middle class experiences simply doesn't work. IMHO.
 
That's an impression I often have: if you have no idea how the life of the British upper classes used to be at that time, you don't really understand what was going on. Neither Charles nor Diana were middle class people so trying to explain their behaviour with middle class experiences simply doesn't work. IMHO.

I totally agree with you. Beside human reactions like laughing, crying, etc. People who aren't from this class can't understand why they did this or that. They didn't grew up the same way so how could they react like middle class persons.

Some people also think that because you live in a beautiful castle, with jewels and all you don't have the right to complain but it doesn't work this way IMO. You can be from the upper class and feel terribly lonely. Like the Beatles said : "Can't buy me love" :rolleyes:.
 
Ysbel,

It was, and always has been, my position that neither 'side' was inherently better or worse behaved than t'other. My sense of loyalty to Her Majesty and her Heir has never once wavered. However, I truly believed that Diana engendered a tsunami of difference, i.e. difference of opinion and attitude. To my observation, the Palace and its attendants and lackeys were utterly confounded by her popularity, and, yes, it must be said, adoration, in some quarters. To whit: they were completely at a loss as to how to countermand her prescience and appeal, even in those few instances where they could even begin to comprehend it. That they couldn't accept, much less inhabit, a radically altered world which worshipped celebrity in all of its manifestations, was its major shortcoming. In the final analysis, there are highly paid advisers to advise and inform on social aberrations and indulgences.

From my perspective, I could almost hear the tumbrils rumbling, and was most anxious that Her Majesty would survive, unscathed. In my long view, it was a near run thing, and although I'm not a fan of his, Tony Blair did a great deal to assist in maintaining the status quo in this instance. Both in England and Australia I was horrified to hear the slanders and anger directed at The Queen and her son over Diana's ghastly death, which I always felt was manifestly unfair. Neither of them, no matter what, would have wished her dead!

Still, I believe that Diana was an immense threat to the English so-called Establishment. A.N. Wilson, in The New York Times, commented that if she continues to rock the boat, "the Establishment will simply get rid of her, as they got rid of Edward and Mrs Simpson". The irony here, is, of course, that the Spencers were much more legitmate 'Establishment' than all of the nouveaux and faux-gentry which surrounded the Crown, especially those who inhabited Camilla's world. Its interests, invested in the Crown's patronage, was seriously challenged at a mundane, social level, and therefore Diana's actions were deemed insupportable. The advent of Diana relegated the almost religious reverence which many held for the Royal Family into a more secular milieu.

In an historical sense, the quasi-religious mystique of royalty came full circle with Diana. Monarchy used to be based on divine right. But just as monarchy, traditionally, used religious trappings to justify its rule, modern celebrity has a way of slipping into a form of popular religion, hitherto quite unacknowledged and unappreciated in its power.

In this sense, Diana evolved into a sacrificial symbol in several ways. First she became the patron saint of victims, the sick, the discriminated against, the homeless. Then, partly through her real suffering at the hands of a rigidly formal family trained to play rigidly formal public roles, and partly through her shrewd manipulation of the press, Diana herself projected a compelling image of victimhood. Women in unhappy marriages identified with her; so did outsiders of one kind or another, ethnic, sexual or social. Like many religious idols, she was openly abused and ridiculed, in her case by the same press that stoked the public worship of her. And finally, she became the ultimate victim of her own fame.

I remember some people, devoted monarchists all, bewailing Diana's death. "How could she leave?" For the last 16 years, on the world's stage, Diana had embodied Britain for much of the world. She showed that despite the loss of empire and influence and the heavy weight of history, the country was capable of youth and vigour and immense charm, still. By blood alone and her impeccable lineage, she was an endorsement of all which Britain had been and still could be. If one were to investigate such things, Diana Spencer was a much better bred Englishwoman than anyone else in the Royal Family.

But what mattered most was that Diana was truly the world's princess, a title which no other could ever hope to attain, and no monarch ever has. How many nations embraced expressions of shock and dismay and mourning in public, far beyond diplomacy's or mere politeness' requirements?

There have been many changes for the better in House of Windsor, and 'tis my considered opinion that they are for the better, and that they are due to the late Princess of Wales.

Tina Brown's book endorses this view. Tina Brown's book, though, does not do this at the expense of Diana's ex-royal-in-laws. On the whole, I admire it because it's approps, and casts no heavy stones.

polly i have to say that this is one of the (if not THE) best post i have ever read on any of the royalty discussion boards that i've been on. it makes total sense of things that i have wondered about and it's well thought out and very very logical.
 
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People who aren't from this class can't understand why they did this or that. They didn't grew up the same way so how could they react like middle class persons.

Some people also think that because you live in a beautiful castle, with jewels and all you don't have the right to complain but it doesn't work this way IMO. You can be from the upper class and feel terribly lonely. Like the Beatles said : "Can't buy me love" :rolleyes:.

while i agree with the last part, i have to disagree with the first. i think everyone, no matter what class you come from can relate to everyone if they're honest with themselves. perhaps a lot of the life experiences are different but you know when it all boils down that we're all the same. you don't have to grow up middle class to know that having extra marital affairs is wrong even if it is the "accepted" thing in your social set. and you don't have to grow up upper class to know that all the wealth in the world will make you happy.
 
while i agree with the last part, i have to disagree with the first. i think everyone, no matter what class you come from can relate to everyone if they're honest with themselves. perhaps a lot of the life experiences are different but you know when it all boils down that we're all the same. you don't have to grow up middle class to know that having extra marital affairs is wrong even if it is the "accepted" thing in your social set. and you don't have to grow up upper class to know that all the wealth in the world will make you happy.
I don't think someone from the upper classes could understand a lot of what happens in the middle classes and vice versa. How can someone with plenty of money know what it is to struggle to pay the electricity account, or for someone with no money to understand a £5000 restaurant bill.
Someone once said, having money doesn't make you happy, but it means you can be miserable in comfort. :lol:

Clearly all parties involved in this menage kept it secret for as long as they could. It is often reported that it is accepted by the upper classes, to have affairs, but IMO as a general rule, it is no more acceptable whatever your class.
 
Clearly all parties involved in this menage kept it secret for as long as they could. It is often reported that it is accepted by the upper classes, to have affairs, but IMO as a general rule, it is no more acceptable whatever your class.

Yes I think that also. Perhaps in other culturs or civilizations having affairs is something normal. Although in our princips it's considered like wrong. It's because of these princips that women and men feel betrayed. If Charles and Diana were living and raised in a country that consideres polygamy as a common way of life, there would have been no problems.
 
I don't think someone from the upper classes could understand a lot of what happens in the middle classes and vice versa. How can someone with plenty of money know what it is to struggle to pay the electricity account, or for someone with no money to understand a £5000 restaurant bill.
Someone once said, having money doesn't make you happy, but it means you can be miserable in comfort. :lol:

Clearly all parties involved in this menage kept it secret for as long as they could. It is often reported that it is accepted by the upper classes, to have affairs, but IMO as a general rule, it is no more acceptable whatever your class.

i love that quote! :lol:and i agree with money part of it but what i mean is that people from both classes understand each other perfectly in that they all know right from wrong. there are certainly parts of both lifestyles that the other side would never understand but essentially, morally and to a large degree emotionally people aren't all that different. we all know what it is to hurt and be hurt - to be lonely and to be without "something".
 
Ah skydragon I see my mistake. Of course, Tina Brown wasn't privy to the inner workings of the aristocracy or royalty, you are absolutely right and that's all what society was before the media age.

What I should have said is that Tina Brown is imminently qualified to write of the society that comes from the celebrity culture and from what you are saying, it seems that this celebrity culture is decidedly middle class. Makes sense. :flowers: Interesting. I remember Hugh Grant saying that foreigners thought his movie Three Weddings and a Funeral depicted the upper classes but the characters in the movie were just middle class.

The Tatler was a super magazine subscribed to by aristocrats and the upper classes, Tina Brown turned it into a middle class version of any of the gory gossip magazines, concentrating on wannabe's and celebs. Most people I know cancelled their subscriptions, although there was a rise as the middle classes purchased it instead.

Ah so Tina Brown did with the Tatler exactly what she later did with the New Yorker? :lol: I hated the dumbed down version of the New Yorker after she finished with it. But then I am more academic which is why I enjoyed Sarah Bradford's book. It is academic in tone which to a lot of people is very boring.


Don't forget, Bridget Jones was middle class and that of course was the set she mixed in, (great film). :flowers:
Oh indeed and the book was even funnier! :ROFLMAO:I don't know if the scene where Bridget mimics Tina Brown is in the movie but in the book it was hilarious! I didn't really think about what class BJ and her family was in, but it makes sense that they are middle class.

The Diana 'success' has been followed by a lack of interest in anything that is not celebrity driven, which in turn has led to a lack of basic decency towards others.

Ah, although I am interested in reading Tina Brown's book and I understand what Polly means about the social influences of the celebrity culture, I must say I agree with your opinion of celebrity culture :flowers: especially when people from more traditional and conservative institutions like royalty cross into the celebrity culture. In other areas, the celebrity culture doesn't bother me as much and can be quite fun. I am amused at people outraged at the tackiness of Posh and Becks. He's a ballplayer and she's a former girl singer. In my opinion they are fine for what they are. If David was Charles' son and Victoria his bride and they were in line to the British throne, that would be a little horrifying. But in the position they are as ballplayer and former Spice Girl, to me they are perfectly fine.

I must say though that if the Diana success influenced the lack of interest in anything that is non-celebrity as you say it did then Diana would have been still a very powerful social influence although not a positive one.

From the excerpt I read it seemed that Tina Brown was chronicling Diana's move from the royal society to a more celebrity-driven society. Since I still believe that Tina is an expert in this celebrity culture, I think she may be more qualified to talk about Diana's move to celebritydom and her interactions with that set rather than about Diana's relationship with the Royal Family since as you say, it is a different culture.

I know that Diana was aristocratic in blood but in many ways she did not seem to act very aristocratic. It was said of Diana once that while she had the common touch and could easily relate to underprivileged people and people in pain, she had a hard time relating to people of her own social class. skydragon, I don't think you would say Diana was a typical example of anstocratic English girl, would you?

So while I agree that Tina could not have really understood the class from which Diana sprang, I think because Diana didn't seem to fit within her class very comfortably and did fit into the celebrity culture more comfortably than the aristocratic class, that Tina Brown could understand Diana and what motivated her and probably moreso what drove the decidely non-aristocratic public to adore her.
 
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In my opinion, there is no effort big enough to completely explain the Diana phenomenon or Diana as a person. There were so many “insight” stories about her that we can never imagine there would be another person in this world who would be so closely investigated as her. However, though we knew so much about her, she was still a big question mark to us. Because these stories presented to us were mostly conflicted with each other. The more we knew the more we were confused. I don’t know whether it was because of Diana’s own conflicted personality or because the writers of these books were taking so opposite sides that they tried their best to present us that one-sided “Diana” suited to their purposes. Or because the simple presumption that “Diana was complicated” drove those writers to write their books more conflicted and controversial. For so many books I read about her, I couldn’t find a book which can convinced me that was the true picture of Diana. To each person who knew her, Diana had drew a unique picture of her own.

And I don’t buy the idea that Diana was just a celebrity. I found it so hard to compare her to other celebrities. And I didn’t see any celebrity would have such an impact on people’s mind. Not a small number of people would declared that they were thinking of Diana even now. I am one of these people. But if I were asked why I always thought of her, I couldn’t come out even one word. And I’ve already given up the effort to explain why. To me she was just simply “magical”. If you ask me to use one word to depict Diana, or the Diana phenomenon, I would choose “magical”. However, this world become so rational that people didn’t believe “magic” any more.
 
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I would agree with you Anbrida and of course Polly's excellent analysis quoted above in post #274 by Duchess. Diana was a phenomenon - the manisfestation of what I felt in fairytales. And perhaps that is the only way to describe her: as you said 'magical'.

When a child, I was an avid follower of the Royal Family and dutifully maintained scrap books. The devotion to duty of Her Majesty, the sacrifice of HM the Queen Mother when she became Queen Consort and during WWII made a deep impression on me. Princess Alexandra and Princess Anne fitted into that mold.

I detested celebrities because I felt they did not do anything for their fellow-men but lived a life of leisure from the spoils of exploiting their fellow men. But we were attracted by the glamour.

Jacqueline Kennedy and Princess Grace of Monaco were two first ladies with a glamorous fashion sense. I was resigned to the fact that the Royal ladies are wearing the clothes that befits their status. Sometimes, in the 70s they appeared overloaded with jewels but I reasoned, it was the demands of the positions they hold.

Then there was Mother Teresa whose life of servanthood to the disadvantaged was an inspiration.

But Diana combined the dutiful, the glamorous, the compassionate into one neat little package and yes! it was magical. The fairytale fell apart but I am glad it happenned.
 
But Diana combined the dutiful, the glamorous, the compassionate into one neat little package and yes! it was magical. The fairytale fell apart but I am glad it happenned.

So it seemed like the image of Diana had a little something for everybody - she was not just a princess, not just a humanitarian, not just a humanitarian, a beautiful glamourous figure, not just a glamourous figure, a humanitarian.

anbrida said:
But if I were asked why I always thought of her, I couldn’t come out even one word. And I’ve already given up the effort to explain why. To me she was just simply “magical”. If you ask me to use one word to depict Diana, or the Diana phenomenon, I would choose “magical”. However, this world become so rational that people didn’t believe “magic” any more.

I think Diana's magic was her message that it was OK to use your heart rather than your head.

I'm interested to see what Tina Brown makes of all this in her book.
 
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From the excerpt I read it seemed that Tina Brown was chronicling Diana's move from the royal society to a more celebrity-driven society. Since I still believe that Tina is an expert in this celebrity culture, I think she may be more qualified to talk about Diana's move to celebritydom and her interactions with that set rather than about Diana's relationship with the Royal Family since as you say, it is a different culture.

I know that Diana was aristocratic in blood but in many ways she did not seem to act very aristocratic. It was said of Diana once that while she had the common touch and could easily relate to underprivileged people and people in pain, she had a hard time relating to people of her own social class. skydragon, I don't think you would say Diana was a typical example of anstocratic English girl, would you?
.... think because Diana didn't seem to fit within her class very comfortably and did fit into the celebrity culture more comfortably than the aristocratic class, that Tina Brown could understand Diana and what motivated her and probably moreso what drove the decidely non-aristocratic public to adore her.
I agree with all your points. I expect I have trouble 'understanding' what other people call the phenomenon and the book because I have trouble with the celebrity culture. Many years ago I met the Beatles, but was distinctly under impressed, so much so, I gave their autographs to a friend! :D
Diana could be very well aware of her position and didn't mind using it when she wanted, IMO. She was more taken with the adoration of 'common people', which she hadn't had as the youngest daughter, from people of the same class.:flowers:
 
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isn't it funny that diana didn't really fit into any "mold". she felt more comfortable with people that were in a lower social class than her own, yet all those people that she felt comfortable with still saw her in a higher social class.
 
isn't it funny that diana didn't really fit into any "mold". she felt more comfortable with people that were in a lower social class than her own, yet all those people that she felt comfortable with still saw her in a higher social class.

Well, when you're Princess of Wales you can't be in a low social class, know what I mean ? Although I understand you if you're talking about when she wasn't princess.:flowers:
 
She was more taken with the adoration of 'common people', which she hadn't had as the youngest daughter, from people of the same class.

Is the adoration of higher class worth more than the those of the lower class? As I see it (from afar off, of course, thank goodness), the higher class (especially in Britain) are somewhat restrained in displaying adoration, even to Her Majesty.

The exception of course is that venerable statesman Sir Winston Churchill, incidently, a kinsman to Diana. It's quite something to see pictures of him greeting his young Queen when she came back from Kenya on that memorable occassion or at other functions. Head bowed in reverent affection whenever he shakes her hand. And in his speeches, always with deep respect to his sovereign. Ahh but how times have changed!
 
Is the adoration of higher class worth more than the those of the lower class? As I see it (from afar off, of course, thank goodness), the higher class (especially in Britain) are somewhat restrained in displaying adoration, even to Her Majesty.

The exception of course is that venerable statesman Sir Winston Churchill, incidently, a kinsman to Diana.

Winston Churchill was half-American so I think that is where he got his effusiveness from, LOSSEAN! :D Americans have never been known to hold back and Churchill's mother Jennie Jerome certainly didn't. She scandalized Britons by campaigning for her husband by directly asking for people to vote for her husband for his position in Parliament. The Britons were scandalized; in Britain, politicians didn't directly solicit votes! :eek:

No LOSSEAN, I don't think the adoration of the higher classes is worth more than the adoration of lower classes, but if Diana felt uncomfortable with people of the upper class then I think it may be because she was uncomfortable with some aspects of herself since she was herself a member of the upper class. I think it would be impossible for her to totally discard her upper class upbringing even though she didn't exhibit the upper class parts of her personality too much to the public, does that make sense?

skydragon said:
Many years ago I met the Beatles, but was distinctly under impressed, so much so, I gave their autographs to a friend! :D


Oh I would have killed for an autograph of George Harrison, skydragon. :D But for the most part, I'm the same way as you about the celebrity culture but I like to learn why other people think as they do.

skydragon said:
She was more taken with the adoration of 'common people', which she hadn't had as the youngest daughter, from people of the same class.:flowers:

Interesting, skydragon. I heard some of Diana's schoolteachers say that they thought Diana needed more attention than she was getting from her family (in particular her father) at the time, even though the teachers themselves could tell that the Earl was clearly very fond of his daughter. I haven't gotten the book from the library yet. In the book does Tina Brown mention this at all?
 
Interesting, skydragon. I heard some of Diana's schoolteachers say that they thought Diana needed more attention than she was getting from her family (in particular her father) at the time, even though the teachers themselves could tell that the Earl was clearly very fond of his daughter. I haven't gotten the book from the library yet. In the book does Tina Brown mention this at all?

I didn't read the book yet either so can't help you there. Although I'm pretty sure Sarah Bradford mention a part like that. If you have read the book, maybe you know what I'm talking about.:flowers:
 
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Thanks TheTruth. I've ordered Bradford's book too. :flowers:
 
You're very welcomed. I found it was a great book, very balanced without making someone the 'bad guy'. Tina Brown's one seems quite interesting but I'm waiting less of it. Just my opinion though :D. Have a good reading:flowers:
 
Interesting, skydragon. I heard some of Diana's schoolteachers say that they thought Diana needed more attention than she was getting from her family (in particular her father) at the time, even though the teachers themselves could tell that the Earl was clearly very fond of his daughter. I haven't gotten the book from the library yet. In the book does Tina Brown mention this at all?
There is another one liner regarding this I think, but I can't find it at the moment.

There are one or two sections that show, IMO, Diana's need to be see as better than anyone else. When she heard her Grandfather the Earl had died, instead of a few tears, she rushed along the school corriders telling everyone 'I'm a Lady now, I'm Lady Diana now'.

I also think it is unfortunate that Brown seems to blame the nannies for giving up on Diana, but some of the torture she inflicted was awful. Apart from the pins in a cushion treatment of one, she flushed anothers engagement ring down the loo. These nasty episodes only get a short write up and I find it incredible that everyone seems to gloss over them, including Brown.

IMO, Diana was too busy making sure people from her own class, know she was now a step above them and if they failed to realise that and treat her accordingly, she could I think be quite vindictive. Most of the public treated her as she believed she should be treated, but I don't think she could work out why those from her own class, or Charles' friends didn't treat her that way as well.
 
Interesting, skydragon. I'm surprised one of her former nannies hasn't released a tell-all book then. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, on the subject that I am most interested in, how she got along with Charles' friends, I don't think Tina Brown is in a good position to write about. I do think that played a large part in the scheme of things.

Well I just realized that I reserved Sally Bedell Smith book at the library not Sarah Bradford's book. It was Smith's book I read before, not Bradford's. I can't believe I got those two mixed up. Smith had the analysis of Diana's media appeal that I thought was so striking so I wanted to compare her impression with Tina Brown's.
 
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What should be kept in mind was that a good part of the appeal Diana had to ordinary people (on an international scale) was that on marriage she immediately attained the royal mystique. Without that, she would have been just another largely anonymous aristo.

What makes the "Diana phenomonon" so interesting, and maybe unique, is how, while at the pinnacle of society, she used that mystique to project herself not only as the protector of the downtrodden, but as a victim herself. While she undoubtedly had an ally in the media, she would certainly have been very well-aware of the public persona that was being presented to the world.

The flaw is that on closer examination heroes may have feet of clay; the tragedy is that it all began to unravel towards the end. Like many, I cannot understand why she so willingly became associated with (and allowed herself to be used by) the al-Fayeds, a lapse of judgement which was to prove fatal.
 
Interesting, skydragon. I'm surprised one of her former nannies hasn't released a tell-all book then. :rolleyes:
Give it time! :ROFLMAO:
Unfortunately, on the subject that I am most interested in, how she got along with Charles' friends, I don't think Tina Brown is in a good position to write about. I do think that played a large part in the scheme of things.
I can't see any of Charles friends making any comments that could be made public and certainly not to Tina Brown. :lol:
 
"..............Like many, I cannot understand why she so willingly became associated with (and allowed herself to be used by) the al-Fayeds, a lapse of judgement which was to prove fatal.........."

To humiliate Charles imo
 
There are one or two sections that show, IMO, Diana's need to be see as better than anyone else. When she heard her Grandfather the Earl had died, instead of a few tears, she rushed along the school corriders telling everyone 'I'm a Lady now, I'm Lady Diana now'.

Well, she rarely saw her grandfather who was by the way, a greedy person, obsessed by 'his' Althorp more than everything, even his own children. With someone like that, I wouldn't cry.:flowers:
 
i agree that diana's association with the Al Fayed's was a big mistake and i think it still would have been had she not died. the popular opinion (or at least the one that's been planted by the media) is that she felt Al Fayed's seemingly unlimited resources/wealth could provide her with the kind of protection (and luxury?) she wanted. i guess we'll never know for sure. the only people that she would probably have discussed this with have not, and probably never will, tell the media about it.
 
Well the library told me it will take awhile to get Tina Brown's book but I did get Sally Bedell Smith's book and its interesting to read her analysis of the Diana phenomenon in light of Tina Brown's book.

Smith wrote that Diana's enigma was partly the uniqueness of being a royal princess, partly her espressive beauty (especially her eyes which communicated modesty) and also her air of vulnerablity and accessibility. The total made up a package that was unique. This is similar to quotes I heard from Brown's book.

On the second reading, Smith's analysis is annoying me a little more than before. When I first read it, no one had described Diana from this angle yet so it seemed revolutionary but now on the second read I wish she would support her argument more, if not by quotes at least by explaining how she arrives to some conclusions. She does better when she's writing about Diana's family. It appears that a lot of Diana's family on both sides talked to Smith and their revelations about themselves or each other sound more unguarded and therefore seem sometimes more revealing of Diana's environment and what shaped her than their remembrances of Diana herself.

Smith does seem like she differs greatly with Tina Brown on the impact of Diana's fame but I want to reserve judgment until I read Brown's book. Smith's goal in the book seems to be to uncover the human being underneath the Diana mystique and her opinion was that the fame damaged the flesh and blood human being that was Diana. Tina Brown, from what I've read, apparently frames the postive effects of Diana's media presence in terms of how it affects others so the two viewpoints may not be as contradictory as they first seem.
 
Smith wrote that Diana's enigma was partly the uniqueness of being a royal princess, partly her espressive beauty (especially her eyes which communicated modesty) and also her air of vulnerablity and accessibility. The total made up a package that was unique. This is similar to quotes I heard from Brown's book.
Very similar, however, don't forget that Diana apparently posed for hours for her father to take photos and spent further hours in front of a mirror, to cultivate just such a look. Martin Bashir said on the BBC programme about her interview, that Diana spent almost an hour having the camera and chair moved, so that she looked up and seemed 'vulnerable' to the lens.
 
Very similar, however, don't forget that Diana apparently posed for hours for her father to take photos and spent further hours in front of a mirror, to cultivate just such a look.

Okay she posed for her father but I think you say that this way because you don't like Diana. Why do you get her down like that? I mean, I don't do this for Camilla and I'm sure there's thing to say about her but I never said a bad word on her lol.:flowers:
 
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