Royal Ascot 2: 2008-2018

[Pranter]

Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession?



LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

Is this a fact or just a nasty lie started by the tabloids?

Where is the copy or press release when the Queen issued this?
From BP and not from the DM. BP issued them for Charlotte so where is the one claiming to demote Camilla?

Is the 2005 or 2006 edition of The royal blue book court and parliamentary guide available or did they cease publication?

Order of Precedence in England and Wales

This information comes from when Margret and the queen mum were alive, based on the legal precedents of the time.

The Queen putting her daughter and other blood relations ahead of Camilla and Kate is said to have been done for informal family occasions, so there is no real proof whether this is true or not. Legally, when she is with her husband Camilla should come ahead of all women, but fall behind Anne without.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I learned a long time ago, on the precedence thing that it is the Queen's prerogative. I have always thought, especially at Ascot, she loads the carriages in ways that suit the riders to converse and look smashing together as they go in. JMO

 

[Queen Camilla]

Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession? LaRae

Do not know.
Mary joined the Royal Family before Camilla but some years back she curtseyed to Camilla.

Order of Precedence in England and Wales

The Queen putting her daughter and other blood relations ahead of Camilla and Kate is said to have been done for informal family occasions, so there is no real proof whether this is true or not. Legally, when she is with her husband Camilla should come ahead of all women, but fall behind Anne without.

No proof so it is something made up by the media and repeated as fact by others.

 

[Zonk]

Okay...time to move on....

 

[Dman]

Everyone looked great at Royal Ascot. I also like the tie tacks the men wore.

 

[TLLK]

Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession?



LaRae

I agree. Both ladies hold equal rank being married to the heirs.

 

[hel]

Wentworth Beaumont is Viscount Annadale. He and his wife are friends of William and Kate and were guests at their wedding. His sister Lucy married Viscount somebody or other just before George was born and Pippa was a guest at the wedding, one of those innumerable weddings the Daily Fail used to film her attending. The Annadales have homes in Northumberland and Yorkshire and are seriously wealthy.

Actually, it's Viscount Allendale and I think the couple with the Cambridges were actually Viscount Allendale's son and his wife, not the Viscount and Viscountess. The Viscount was born in 1948. The Honorable Mr. Beaumont was born in 1979, so is a contemporary of the Cambridges.

They're tricky, those Allendale's; all of the first born sons have been named Wentworth (including the Honorable Mr. and Mrs' first born, who was born in 2013).

You can see the family here:
Current Viscount Allendale
Hon Mr. Beaumont
Lucy Beaumont (who married Julian Marsham, who's actually the second son, not the Viscount Marsham)

There's a really interesting article about the current Viscount and his work on his estate: Lord Allendale, head of Allendale's 20,000 acre estate - The Journal

There's a bit about the Wentworth-at-Ascot:

Allendale and his staff are currently returning 100 acres of coniferous woodland to its original habitat of heather moorland to enhance the moor. By allowing Natural England and Durham University to fence an area of moor, the partnership are looking into possible regeneration methods.

“My son Wentworth plays a very big part in the running of the estates nowadays and has a keen interest in the shooting side of things,” says Allendale. “He’s an art dealer in London but through regular emails and conference calls we can communicate frequently and he can still help run the business from London when he’s not here in Northumberland.”

There are some interesting parallels with William -- both of their fathers are very interested in conservation and both love shooting. It's not hard to see why they'd be friends.

 

[Osipi]

Kate looks smashing! Great dress! Loving the hats this year as they are less 'fascinators' and more approaching real hats (more to them). They have my approval.

Ascot has its own requirements of what is allowed and not allowed as far as what one wears to the races. IIRC, flimsy fascinators are not considered hats and are not acceptable for Ascot. Whatever is worn must cover the crown of the head.

Did some digging back through this thread and for a real in depth look into the rites and rituals of Royal Ascot week, around post #592 in this thread, we get quite an extensive report that was put together by a former member here called Diarist. She not only explains the ins and outs of all things Ascot but also writes from her own personal perspective. Worth taking a look at.

 

[EllieCat]

Which is a change, for during Diana's time, whether her husband was present or not, the Princess of Wales was only out ranked by the queen and queen mum.

And after Diana, Sophie, for a time was third lady in the land, until The Queen changed the rules. I don't think this was a press-made up thing; i can recall several pictures of Royal ladies together, where this 'new' rule was shown, e.g. one pic of The Queen, with Princess Anne, Sophie and Birgitte following in that order.

As for Ascot, the thread I'm supposed to on, , I was thrilled to see Frederick and Mary with the Wessexes, a real Ascot bonus.

 

[Countessmeout]

Here is a basic over view. I found the same information on the Ascot website, it is just compiled here

Royal Ascot dress code for the 2016 races and Ladies Day - Get Reading

These are the guidelines for the royal enclosure. Note the bolded on fascinators

Formal daywear is a requirement in the Royal Enclosure, defined as follows:

• Dresses and skirts should be of modest length defined as falling just above the knee or longer.
• Dresses and tops should have straps of one inch or greater.
• Jackets and pashminas may be worn but dresses and tops underneath should still comply with the Royal Enclosure dress code.
• Trouser suits are welcome. They should be of full length and of matching material and colour.
• Hats should be worn; however a headpiece which has a solid base of four inches (10cm) or more in diameter is acceptable as an alternative to a hat.

Ladies are kindly asked to note the following:

• Strapless, off the shoulder, halter neck and spaghetti straps are not permitted.
• Midriffs must be covered.
• Fascinators are not permitted; neither are headpieces which do not have a solid base covering a sufficient area of the head (four inches/10cm). [/QUOTE]

 

[Osipi]

What I also found very fascinating is that even in the 1980s, admission to Ascot in various boxes was denied to divorcees. Once again, I reference Diarist's wonderful breakdown on what's what for Ascot.

"Interestingly, both Sarah [no surprise, I suppose] and Diana were banned from Royal Ascot. In the year following her separation, Diana reputedly said that she wished to go to Royal Ascot on the Thursday [ Gold Cup Day aka Ladies' Day] but was told that she had been banned..........."

There is a lot of protocol and tradition that, to this day, kind of reflects an old standard and may be considered archaic. IMO though, no one does traditions better than the British.

 

[TLLK]

Thank you hel for sharing these facts with the forum.

 

[VictoriaB]

What I also found very fascinating is that even in the 1980s, admission to Ascot in various boxes was denied to divorcees. Once again, I reference Diarist's wonderful breakdown on what's what for Ascot.

"Interestingly, both Sarah [no surprise, I suppose] and Diana were banned from Royal Ascot. In the year following her separation, Diana reputedly said that she wished to go to Royal Ascot on the Thursday [ Gold Cup Day aka Ladies' Day] but was told that she had been banned..........."

There is a lot of protocol and tradition that, to this day, kind of reflects an old standard and may be considered archaic. IMO though, no one does traditions better than the British.

Princess Margaret attended Ascot (in the Royal Box) after her divorce which happened before Diana even married into the family.

I doubt Diana was "banned".

 

[Countessmeout]

The royal box is 'by invitation only'. Margaret would of course be welcome, just as I assume Anne was even after her divorce. Diana could have attended Ascot, but considering how the divorce went, I'd not be shocked if an invite to the royal box was not extended.

 

[Dman]

No, the late Princess of Wales was not banned from Royal Ascot. Sarah has attended Royal Ascot on occasion.

 

[Iluvbertie]

And after Diana, Sophie, for a time was third lady in the land, until The Queen changed the rules. I don't think this was a press-made up thing; i can recall several pictures of Royal ladies together, where this 'new' rule was shown, e.g. one pic of The Queen, with Princess Anne, Sophie and Birgitte following in that order.

As for Ascot, the thread I'm supposed to on, , I was thrilled to see Frederick and Mary with the Wessexes, a real Ascot bonus.

Then rules you are referring to are for private events only.

The daughters of the monarch takes precedence over the younger sons of the monarch.

Precedence and order of succession are different things - which is why yesterday the son of the monarch and his spouse were in a carriage ahead of the 2nd in line who is only the grandson of the monarch.

Precedence is based on personal relationship to the monarch with the eldest son first, then the daughters and then the younger sons - why I have no idea but that is the public precedence. We rarely see it in the UK as they tend to arrive in family groups and so it appears that precedence and line of succession are the same but the order of precedence is different.

I have it somewhere at home but not with me at the moment.

The private precedence the Queen introduced was that when only the ladies were present then the 'born' princesses were ahead of the married-in ones. This was after Camilla married Charles and it means that if Camilla and Alexandra arrive at a room at Windsor at the same time Alexandra enters first.

 

[Muhler]

Do not know.
Mary joined the Royal Family before Camilla but some years back she curtseyed to Camilla.

To show respect for someone older?
A minor mistake?
Old habit so to speak? - I.e. the BRF used to be her royal family.

Whatever, no harm done.

 

[Curryong]

Diana was probably refused a ticket to the Royal Enclosure, which is different to the Royal Box and to the Ascot racecourse proper. You can't get into the Royal Enclosure without an application. The ticket is sent to you if you are considered of sufficient rank and 'respectability'.

Divorcees were refused at one time, not sure if they still are. However the Queen has a say as to who enters and so Charles, Camilla and Andrew Parker Bowles, as well as Margaret and Anne are considered fine and OK, but Diana, whose ex and son and daughter in law were here today, and Sarah, whose ex and daughter were at Ascot yesterday, were not, and presumably the ban still stands in Sarah's case.

 

[Muhler]

More about Mary, and her dress, from Daily Mail: Crown Princess Mary stuns in a vibrant orange dress at Royal Box at Ascot | Daily Mail Online

DM know perfectly well that comparing the BRF with foreign royals results in loads of comments among the wack... among the readers.

Notice the caption on one of the pics. Clear click-bait! - To me it looks more like Frederik is leaning forward to hear what Sophie is saying.
Not to mention referring to Kate as Kate Middleton, but Mary as Princess! - DM know exactly what they are doing!

I understand it's protocol for the gentlemen only to lift their hats slightly at Ascot?

 

[ricarda]

Princess Mary and Frederik outranks William and Catherine

Princess Mary curtseyed to Camilla so Catherine should have curtseyed to Mary, if she had not done so privately.

When was that? Because AFAIR CP Mary did not curtsey to Camilla when Prince Charles and Camilla visited Denmark some years ago (whereas Mette-Marit in Norway did). And Mary was right, she did not have to curtsey because the couples are on the same level.
And I am actually not sure Catherine is supposed to curtsey to Mary as they are on the same level too (it does not matter so much that one husband is 1st in line of succession and the other 2nd). When Frederik and Mary were in Sweden lately nobody of the SRF curtsied to them.

 

[Roskilde]

Pictures Crown Princess Mary chatting with Queen Elizabeth II:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/54...9kQZgdpT6g8AEjykscKU6imI6yH8fr8hZ3bW9+zwbng==
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/54.../psrd5O14c725HGwmTht1Sut/t/6AMW7nYmrvk+TiRQ==
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...zabeth-ii-attend-day-2-of-picture-id540475750
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/54...kDaHWa8lRI6cbON/21SRCkb83feJMiVUOSdFi5EJ9eA==


Frederik and Mary chatting with William and Kate:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...rince-frederik-of-denmark-picture-id540419522
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...-princess-mary-of-denmark-picture-id540419514
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...rincess-mary-of-denmark-2-picture-id540475796


ADDED:

Bets were made.. and the horse girl Mary won, here a picture of her winning ticket
http://www.rexfeatures.com/search/?...=N&sft=&timer=N&iprs=f&search_action_desktop=

I'm almost 100 percent sure Mary's and Sophie's horse won here Excellent pictures
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=b039e3b09871ce88223c3b3fdc1526d2&oe=57C72D3D
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=8cf9044f90ed0a49435f3f18a4f1514e&oe=57DECD89
http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi...rage_1/media/10.5733004bg_1.jpg?itok=95apL5dF

 

[Rudolph]

Royal Ascot 2016 - Day Two - Ascot Racecourse

https://www.paimages.co.uk/headline/861382

 

[Curryong]

When was that? Because AFAIR CP Mary did not curtsey to Camilla when Prince Charles and Camilla visited Denmark some years ago (whereas Mette-Marit in Norway did). And Mary was right, she did not have to curtsey because the couples are on the same level.
And I am actually not sure Catherine is supposed to curtsey to Mary as they are on the same level too (it does not matter so much that one husband is 1st in line of succession and the other 2nd). When Frederik and Mary were in Sweden lately nobody of the SRF curtsied to them.

It does matter, actually. Kate is not on the same level as Mary. Mary is Crown Princess of Denmark and her husband, the Crown Prince, will be the next King when Queen Margrethe dies (which I hope will not be for a long time.)

Kate is married to the heir to the heir to the British throne. When, in the next reign, William and Kate are Prince and Princess of Wales, then they will be on the same level that Frederik and Mary are now. Until then they aren't.

 

[Lumutqueen]

So today we've got Princess Anne, Princess Eugenie and Princess Alexandra in the carriage procession.

ROYAL ASCOT: CARRIAGES LIST FOR LADIES’ DAY, 16 JUNE 2016
FIRST CARRIAGE
The Queen
The Duke of Edinburgh
The Duke of York
Mr John Warren

SECOND CARRIAGE
The Princess Royal
The Rt Hon Sir Christopher Geidt
Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Princess Sarvath El Hassan

THIRD CARRIAGE
Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy
Princess Eugenie of York
The Duke of Fife
The Duchess of Fife

 

[Molly2101]

I am loving Princess Eugenie's hat today!

 

[Dman]

Are my eyes playing tricks on me? Is The Queen wearing the diamond and sapphire brooch that Diana used to wear as a chocker?

 

[Pranter]

Links?


LaRae

 

[Dman]

Richard Palmer:
The Queen's Arrival at Ascot-
https://mobile.twitter.com/RoyalReporter/status/743431588344639488

It appears to be the oval diamond and sapphire brooch.

 

[Pranter]

Thanks for the link!

She reminds me of her mother in that pic. I can't get a close enough look at the brooch...but didn't all of Diana's personal jewelry go to the boys? I can't remember the status of that particular piece..?


LaRae