Royal Ascot 2: 2008-2018

[Iluvbertie]

Technically - yes. It is more about who enters rooms before whom etc but yes if HM didn't suggest otherwise then Princess Alexandra - the Queen's first cousin and one to whom she is very close - would sit with her while her daughters-in-law would sit on the next blanket.

As the size of the family grew and there were issues about who would be entering rooms first and sitting closest to The Queen it was easier to come up with an private order of precedence - it stops fights etc. It meant that Camilla wouldn't sit ahead of Anne and Alexandra (as the wife of the heir to the throne that was her right - even in private) and it seems there was some upset about that idea back in 2005 so the private precedence order which placed 'born princesses' ahead of 'married-in princesses' was issued and somehow made public. It may have been around earlier than that but in the 'anti-Camilla' era of much of the press they grabbed that tit-bit and run with it.

 

[Countessmeout]

In private?! That doesn´t makes sense to me even less...
You mean, when they´re on their Scotland holidays, doing a picnic, Princess Alexandra, a, sorry for that, minor Royal, and daughters of a Queen´s younger son, are allowed to sit with HM on blanket 1, while the future Queens have to sit on blanket 2...?!

Yes, when it comes to women, order of precedence is based on physical relation to the queen. The more closely related, the closer you sit. When they are accompanied by their husband it changes, as they take their husband's place in the pecking order.

The change in private really only affects Camilla. Though not physically related to the queen, in public, she comes second to her. The queen's changes simply put Camilla in her proper placement when Charles isn't there. We go from closest to the queen and move out.

So if they had a pinic:

if the blankets seated 4:
Queen
Anne
Bea
Eugenie

blanket 2:
Louise
Zara
Alexandra
Camilla

blanket 3:
Kate
Sophie
D of G
D of K

In public, say carriages if only the women

carriage 1:
queen
Camilla
Anne
Beatrice

carriage 2:
Eugenie
Louise
Zara
Alexandra

carriage 3:
same as blanket 3

 

[Muhler]

Thanks, Wartenberg.

Fascinating!
There is nothing so complicated that you can't make it even more complicated.

 

[Queen Camilla]

The changes only apply in private.

The change in private really only affects Camilla. The queen's changes simply put Camilla in her proper placement when Charles isn't there. We go from closest to the queen and move out.

It may have been around earlier than that but in the 'anti-Camilla' era of much of the press they grabbed that tit-bit and run with it.

The highlighted speaks volumes.

Again, if it was private and existed in the 1980s but it only affects Camilla because the Queen want to put her in her place.

Yet the Queen made Camilla a Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order in 2012 but expects her fall behind a 12 year.

This is not logical.

This is just nonsense created by an unnamed source just to trash Camilla and it keeps getting repeated.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

More about Mary, and her dress, from Daily Mail: Crown Princess Mary stuns in a vibrant orange dress at Royal Box at Ascot | Daily Mail Online

DM know perfectly well that comparing the BRF with foreign royals results in loads of comments among the wack... among the readers.

Notice the caption on one of the pics. Clear click-bait! - To me it looks more like Frederik is leaning forward to hear what Sophie is saying.
Not to mention referring to Kate as Kate Middleton, but Mary as Princess! - DM know exactly what they are doing!

I understand it's protocol for the gentlemen only to lift their hats slightly at Ascot?

You are absolutely right, but they did not succeed because the article received only 29 comments.

And although the Daily Fail has begun to write small articles about foreign royals after the abdications in the Netherlands, Belgium and Spain, there are no ordinary Brits who neither cares or knows anything about foreign royalty.

Pictures Crown Princess Mary chatting with Queen Elizabeth II:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/54...9kQZgdpT6g8AEjykscKU6imI6yH8fr8hZ3bW9+zwbng==
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/54.../psrd5O14c725HGwmTht1Sut/t/6AMW7nYmrvk+TiRQ==
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...zabeth-ii-attend-day-2-of-picture-id540475750
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/54...kDaHWa8lRI6cbON/21SRCkb83feJMiVUOSdFi5EJ9eA==

As a poster said when King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima meet HM: What a great honor it must be to meet the Queen. Both US Presidents, Popes, other heads of state and royalty is in awe of her.

 

[soapstar]

As has been already stated, let's get back on topic. If you wish to discuss order of precedence, you can take it to the Precedence - Who Outranks Who? thread. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[Osipi]

I just love it when the unexpected happens. With mentioning Diarist's excellent and informative posts here, I guess I caught her attention and she sent me more information via private message. As she has been gracious enough to give me permission to share her insights with you all, I am including the bulk of her PM here.

From Diarist:

Just to clarify - Divorcees were [as I said] allowed into the Royal Enclosure in the early 1950's, after Queen Mary had handed in her veto.

I've read through what people have been saying and I think that posters are getting muddled between Royal Ascot and the Royal Enclosure and the Royal Box. Basically, anyone can buy a ticket for Royal Ascot, but this will only admit you to the 'public enclosures' - formerly known as the 'Grandstand' and the 'Silver ring'. You only get tickets for these enclosures. You don't get a badge - badges [and they bear your name and so are not transferable] are only available for members of the Royal Enclosure. I have to say that the R.E. is becoming less exclusive year by year - you used to be very positively vetted - not so much now. The badges that are bi-coloured - red and purple, to echo the Queen's horseracing colours. Incidentally, the talk today in the R.E. was how wittily the Queen's outfit colours [blue and orange was a very clever reference to the colours of the winner of the Gold Cup - check it out yourself! The Queen was clearly signalling 'racing tip' to those of us who could read the 'code'.

A word about age limits. You have to be at least 16 to attend the Royal Enclosure, apart from Fridays and Saturdays where, as a special treat, school children from the age of 10 years old are permitted to attend. [I used to be granted half a day's leave from school to do so!!] Elsewhere on the course, there is theoretically no age limit, but because this is still school term time, it is highly unlikely that people would get permission to remove their children from school to attend. There is an exception to every rule - Zara P. attended the Royal Enclosure when she was under 10 and not on a Friday. This caused great comment, which happily diverted the attention of the Press from Princess Anne, who was going through a just-announced divorce!

A bit more 'gossip'. We in the R.E. are noticing how, little by little, small adaptations are being made to cope with the Queen's advancing years. She does not leave the Royal Box to attend the parade ring as much as she used to. There was a lovely informal moment today when Sophie, in the Parade Ring [standing near me] looked up and saw the Queen standing on the balcony above in the Royal Box which overlooks the Parade Ring on one side. [it overlooks the course on the other side]. Sophie immediately waved to her mother-in-law and then executed a perfect curtsey to her.

Harry has attended Royal Ascot on several previous occasions, unlike his brother. I believe that this is because Harry is much more interested in racing - don't forget he was part-owner of a horse wittily called Usain Colt [after the sprinter!] Diana was banned from the Royal Enclosure, but could have bought a ticket for the other enclosures. It was stated by biographers that what had happened was that just after the bitterness of the separation, Diana said that 'she would attend Gold Cup day', meaning the RE. Apparently the Queen thought this was a bit 'rich', as it is at the discretion of the Queen who attends the RE and the Royal Box. Diana was therefore told she could not attend the R.E. If you want to put this into context, the Royal Family at that time were still reeling from the shock of Morton and Panorama etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...fgFGBz9L_4V5dRQnfCxQmxBVJWX4vpQD1Lqf1U9fQ.jpg

 

[duchessrachel]

I am so much enjoying learning about Royal Ascot from Diarist. I have always been fascinated by it, but I have recently become obsessed with it. I even have a pinterest board where I have put together outfits that I might would wear should I ever get to go.

So, today, I was thinking about the passing of the glove at Ascot. It seems to be a generational thing.

Today, The Queen, The Princess Royal, The Duchess or Cornwall, Princess Alexandra, Princess Michael and the Duchess of Gloucester still wear gloves to Ascot.

Of course, it’s impossible to know if there are gloves in the odd handbag, and Getty searches can be incomplete, but here’s an unofficial list of the last time I could spot these ladies with gloves at Ascot. In no particular order.

Princess Haya – 2011 http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/15...WUn9g+2gAT96aSNvhVXc8uIAZGaT/bdPMdVcGgWOtBA==
Sarah Ferguson- 2015 http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/47...5RhzQ1Mt9sIwvhkgVtBvMb/3tXjJ+Jv4S3aIeBa360Q==
Countess of Wessex – 2002 http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/52...l6twm95XPxoBPWU/bZcSDq0Vu8qo3n5KGnsp+EV0FK+A=
Serena Linley - 2013 http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/17...eP9GMx96wyiB1fETsm3a+yxYtjlWEOnI3NsoT1ZUOiQ==
Zara Tindall – 1989, (interestingly, Mom is gloves off in the photos I found, but Anne is carrying a large handbag that year. And I suspect, Moms find gloves a bit of a handful when with their bit of a handful). http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/52...kI6L4Sb7+flME7YC1kKwOOI2C2qNc4IQBFThPl+Xy6ZQ=
Diana, Princess of Wales, 1991 http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...diana-at-royal-ascot-races-picture-id79730131
BTW – if you ever have an odd hour, old Royal Ascot photos are a treat to look through.

Is there a good source, other than Google, to find old Royal Ascot photos?

 

[Countessmeout]

Many of the sites google takes their photos from.

Getty images is a great source always. Allows you to search specific years (my link shows 1997 for interest)
Royal Ascot 1997 Stock Photos And Pictures | Getty Images

Ascot's website has some great old footage and pictures
https://www.ascot.co.uk/royal-ascot-content-hub

 

[EllieCat]

Great to see the Duke and Duchess of Fife today; the Duke being a great-great-grandson of Edward VII. His wife wore the magnificent Fife tiara on her wedding day.

 

[duchessrachel]

Many of the sites google takes their photos from.

Getty images is a great source always. Allows you to search specific years (my link shows 1997 for interest)
Royal Ascot 1997 Stock Photos And Pictures | Getty Images

Ascot's website has some great old footage and pictures
https://www.ascot.co.uk/royal-ascot-content-hub

Thanks. I have been wondering how to get to the getty images.

 

[VictoriaB]

Off topic but I do miss Diarist's posts. They were wonderful and informative and, as I read various posts on various topics, I often find myself wishing she had never chosen to leave the board.

Thank you for posting her message to you Osipi.

 

[HRHHermione]

Off topic but I do miss Diarist's posts. They were wonderful and informative and, as I read various posts on various topics, I often find myself wishing she had never chosen to leave the board.

Thank you for posting her message to you Osipi.

Oh I miss her too! Her posts were the very best.




Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Lumutqueen]

FIRST CARRIAGE
The Queen
The Duke of Edinburgh
The Duke of Fife
Viscount Linley

SECOND CARRIAGE
Prince Michael of Kent
Princess Michael of Kent
Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Princess Sarvath El Hassan

THIRD CARRIAGE
Earl of Hopetoun
Countess of Hopetoun
Mr John Warren
The Lady Carolyn Warren

FOURTH CARRIAGE
Lieutenant Colonel Francis Lukas
Mrs Francis Lukas
Mr Stuart Janney
Mrs Stuart Janney

 

[Mbruno]

Great to see the Duke and Duchess of Fife today; the Duke being a great-great-grandson of Edward VII. His wife wore the magnificent Fife tiara on her wedding day.

It is curious that the Duchy of Fife can be inherited in female line. Why is that the case ?

 

[Stefan]

It is curious that the Duchy of Fife can be inherited in female line. Why is that the case ?

There was a second creation in 1900 for the 1 Duke because of the absence of a male Heir. Meaning trhat the Title could pass to his oldest daughter ond if her male Heir would became the extinct to the male Issue of the second. daughter.
This is also the case for the Title Earl/Countess Mountbatten of Burma. It will go to her male Issue and they should became extinct to the male Issue of her sister.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It is curious that the Duchy of Fife can be inherited in female line. Why is that the case ?

Letters Patent created on 24th April 1900 for the second dukedom of fife were given special remainder that allowed the dukedom to pass to the daughters of the first Duke, in default of a son, and then to the male heirs of those daughters. It was created twice for the same person, more than likely because in 1900 Alexander Duke of Fife had two daughters and 33 year old wife with one stillborn son.

 

[Iluvbertie]

When Edward VII's daughter married into the Fife family she and her husband didn't have any sons and so Victoria issued specific LPs to allow for the female inheritance so the title would pass to her descendants and not to a collateral line. These new LPs only allow for inheritance through the daughters of Princess Louise and then their sons not through all subsequent female lines so if their is no male heir from Princess Louise's daughters - as has already happened from the elder daughter, then the title would follow the normal procedures for a title - a collateral line or extinct.

 

[Frelinghighness]

Thank you Osipi for your facts about ascot and personal observations

 

[Lumutqueen]

The Duke of York is with his ex-wife and Princess Beatrice today.

The Queen is wearing coral/pink,

 

[Countessmeout]

His ex-wife unless I missed an elopement




Some of the others


Earl/Countess of Hopetoun, Lady Warren and her husband
http://www.gettyimages.ca/license/540904994


the queen, Prince Philip, Viscount Linley and duke of Fife
http://www.gettyimages.ca/license/540904760
http://www.gettyimages.ca/license/540904714

 

[Al_bina]

FIRST CARRIAGE
The Queen
The Duke of Edinburgh
The Duke of Fife
Viscount Linley

SECOND CARRIAGE
Prince Michael of Kent
Princess Michael of Kent
Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Princess Sarvath El Hassan .... [snipped]

Thanks for information!
I am looking forward to seeing Serena's photos.

 

[Lumutqueen]

His ex-wife unless I missed an elopement

Both Beatrice and Eugenie are there with their parents

Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York with Princess Eugenie and Princess... News Photo | Getty Images
Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York with Princess Eugenie and Princess... News Photo | Getty Images
Princess Beatrice of York, Sarah Ferguson, Princess Eugenie of York... News Photo | Getty Images
Princess Beatrice, Dave Clark and Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York on... News Photo | Getty Images
Princess Eugenie, Princess Beatrice and Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of... News Photo | Getty Images
Princess Eugenie and Princess Beatrice watch the racing as they... News Photo | Getty Images

Those pictures are from last year. It's certainly not that sunny today.

Sarah is in cream and Beatrice in mint green;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClKAGGWWYAABlW4.jpg

Camilla and Charles in the pre-parade ring ready for Garntop to walk through;
https://twitter.com/RoyalReporter/status/743803083931672576

 

[Lumutqueen]

Fergie is excited to greet the Queen at Royal Ascot | Daily Mail Online

 

[wartenberg7]

I´m more than surprised to see the RF taking part in this day´s races, obviously with no cares in the world, after yesterday´s tragic event in Bristall!
Who cares about royal ladies wearing gloves or not on a day like this?!

 

[carlota]

i noticed that all the royal ladies wore long skirts (well below the knee) - i wonder if this is to help ascot reinforce their dress code which they 'politely reminded' everyone of some years ago.

also, i am confused as ato the protocol used for riding in the carriages: apparently the carriages order was:

carriage 1: Queen of the United Kingdom and her husband the Duke of Edinburgh and guests
carriage 2: Prince Charles of Wales and his wife, the Duchess of Cornwall and guests
carriage 3: Frederik and Mary accompanied by Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, and Sofie Countess of Wessex
carriage 4: Duke and Duchess of Cambridge

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGrL9pUzaLn/

how come F&M didn't go in the second carriage with C&C (heirs to the throne), since they have the same rank, and instead went with E&S? it seems odd to put lord and lady vestey with C&C, having other heir couple attending.... if for some reason lord and lady vestey had to ride with C&C, why weren't F&M sat with the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge in their carriage, as they are the next in line to the throne?

a picture of mary meeting queen elizabeth at ascot:

http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi...c/media/article/18.03084161.jpg?itok=1Y-YMFub

is this the only picture there is of them together at ascot? i also wonder if this is the first time mary met the queen, at least publicly.

and some pictures with the cambridges:

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9e286524f8fc798257f8ffdaad1a270b
http://www.glamorous.pk/wp-content/...nmark-and-Kate-Middleton-Lookalike-Twins2.jpg
http://fashion.hellomagazine.com/im...sex-ascot/0-37-680/princess-mary-ascot5-a.jpg

 

[duchessrachel]

i noticed that all the royal ladies wore long skirts (well below the knee) - i wonder if this is to help ascot reinforce their dress code which they 'politely reminded' everyone of some years ago.

a picture of mary meeting queen elizabeth at ascot:

http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi...c/media/article/18.03084161.jpg?itok=1Y-YMFub

is this the only picture there is of them together at ascot? i also wonder if this is the first time mary met the queen, at least publicly.

Speaking of dress codes, I am surprised that Princess Sarvath is not wearing a hat. I thought the dress code was strict. I am not criticizing, just wondering?

 

[duchessrachel]

Oh I miss her too! Her posts were the very best.




Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Why did Diarist leave? I just read one of her posts about Royal Ascot from several years ago and it was so informative. Is there a way to search for posts that she wrote?

 

[HMQueenElizabethII]

It is not the first time that Mary has met the Queen. I believe they did meet in private for The Prince of Wales's 60th birthday dinner/concert hosted by the Queen in 2008.

Regarding the carriage seating arrangement, I think it is decided by the big boss, Her Majesty herself. I think it was done so solely based on the well-established relationship that the Wessexes couple have formed with the Danish Crown Prince couple over the years. The Cambridges have only met them for once on public engagement plus it was their first time being at Ascot, so they were arranged to sit with their friends whom they can closely refer to rather than those they do not know very well.

 

[TortillaChips]

Why did Diarist leave? I just read one of her posts about Royal Ascot from several years ago and it was so informative. Is there a way to search for posts that she wrote?

In theory, this is a link to some