Royal Ascot 2: 2008-2018

[DanyT]

Since (I think) CP Mary outranks Kate (right?)...were there any curtseys?


LaRae

Its my understanding that HRHs don't have to curtsey to one another

 

[wyevale]

is this just a comment to pick apart Kate for the sake of unfairly criticizing her.

That was exactly my reaction to this post !

 

[Pranter]

Its my understanding that HRHs don't have to curtsey to one another

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?


LaRae

 

[Muhler]

A couple of observations.

I actually enjoy the hats. If you are to do something, why not go all the way!

Florence Brudelnell-Bruce is described as an old flame of Harry. She's very attractive! Why on earth did he let her go?

I notice the natives, perhaps very prudently, mostly carry umbrellas.

And I like the concept of placing a bet on the color of QMII's hat.

 

[carlota]

interesting to see the visitors from outside the UK this year! how come frederik and mary attended specifically this year? since they have never attended previously, either ascot or other british races, i wonder what prompted them coming this year. personal interest? an invitation extended by the brits?

 

[Muhler]

interesting to see the visitors from outside the UK this year! how come frederik and mary attended specifically this year? since they have never attended previously, either ascot or other british races, i wonder what prompted them coming this year. personal interest? an invitation extended by the brits?

My guess would be an invitation from the Wessex'es. Since they accompanied M&F. And they know each other well.

 

[VictoriaB]

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?





LaRae

They are all Royal Highnesses so nobody needs to bow/curtsey to anyone else, just to the Queen (should they choose to do so).

Nice to see Frederick & Mary with Edward & Sophie.

Love the colour of the Queen's outfit and the baby blue on Sophie, not sure about Sophie's dress though. It looks a little long & doesn't flatter her figure (to me).

Love Camilla's hat but haven't seen a good photo of the rest of her outfit.

Hated Anne's outfit the first time I saw it and, sorry Anne, it hasn't improved.

 

[Lumutqueen]

interesting to see the visitors from outside the UK this year! how come frederik and mary attended specifically this year? since they have never attended previously, either ascot or other british races, i wonder what prompted them coming this year. personal interest? an invitation extended by the brits?

They were invited guests of HM, DOE but more than likely they were asked by Sophie and Edward.

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?





LaRae

Ascot isn't such a formal event in that regard. Bows/Curtsies are given to The Queen out of respect in this environment.

 

[An Ard Ri]

What a lovely surprise to see the Danish Crown Prince and Princess present today.

 

[Dman]

Since (I think) CP Mary outranks Kate (right?)...were there any curtseys?


LaRae

No, there were no curtsies. The Cambridge's would bow and curtsey to The Queen of Denmank, but not the Crown Prince and Princess.

 

[Queen Camilla]

In 2013, the Windsor Forest Stakes were renamed the Duke of Cambridge Stakes.

In 2016, William, the Duke of Cambridge, makes his first appearance.

 

[Marchesina]

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?


LaRae

Probably two hundred years ago they would have followed the rule of precedence as you described it. As far as I know, the pre-revolutionary French court also distinguished between royal princes, princes of the blood and so on. Nowadays, when it comes to greetings and addressing the style (HM,HRH...) is what matters. This way, Frederik, Mary, William and Catherine are all equal.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Love the colour of the Queen's outfit and the baby blue on Sophie, not sure about Sophie's dress though. It looks a little long & doesn't flatter her figure (to me).

Love Camilla's hat but haven't seen a good photo of the rest of her outfit.

Hated Anne's outfit the first time I saw it and, sorry Anne, it hasn't improved.

Camilla is in a repeat of the outfit she wore on June 6, 2014 for the 70th anniversary of D Day. The coat, dress, hat, shoes and clutch are all the same only the jewelry is different.

 

[Dman]

In 2013, the Windsor Forest Stakes were renamed the Duke of Cambridge Stakes.

In 2016, William, the Duke of Cambridge, makes his first appearance.

Yeah, it has taken him and his wife a while to get to Ascot. Although, it think it's due he and Catherine now stepping up.

 

[Roskilde]

Indeed, a lovely surprise to see the Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary present today

They look to have had a blast.

It's nice to see Frederik and Mary with William and Kate again. I hope William and Kate will be seen mingle more and more with F&M and the other young Crown Prince couple. It could be nice for them.

But lovely to see Frederik and Mary arriving with Edward and Sophie. I have always had the feeling that Mary and Sophie are the type of women who would get along very well. And the two couples have been seen together quite some times. Great.


Pictures:
http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi.../media/article/10.5733004ag.jpg?itok=0MrvrWWg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/15/16/354FCC8100000578-3643123-image-a-1_1466003410653.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/15/14/354F5BCB00000578-3642602-image-a-58_1465999085631.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...ary-of-denmark-and-prince-picture-id540328084
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/54...w3HVTQ/pCW5dPOQcMFZpswZmOCSEnjO9u1UZQM5nYEg==
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=a3b6b2bdb8c05ec13d4b2fcd5e966a94&oe=57F893AC
http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi...rage_1/media/10.5733004bg_1.jpg?itok=95apL5dF
http://herognu.dk/Upload/her-og-nu/2016/24/Onsdag/FrederikmedEdward.jpg

 

[Countessmeout]

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?


LaRae

Kate is not 'only a duchess'. She is a HRH Princess...., Duchess is simply her husband's peerage. As Sophie is not simply a Countess. HRH's don't bow to one another. HRH bow to a HM, but not one another. Kate isn't referred to as Princess as she isn't in her own right, and they would have to call her Princess William. Unlike Princess Michael, Kate has her husband's peerage to go by instead.

Nice to see Fred and Mary there. They seemed to be having a good visit with the Wessexes. Though Sophie and Edward know all the continental royals, they seem to have good bond with both Fred and Joachim and their families.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?


LaRae

Both Kate and Mary are princesses. Sure Mary is the Crown Princess - the same rank as Camilla but that doesn't mean that Mary isn't also a Princess and I don't think anyone has ever seen Kate curtsey to Camilla so she wouldn't be expected to curtsey to someone else of the same rank.

In the UK the designation Prince/Princess is an indication of someone of lower rank than someone who is a HRH Duchess/Countess as it means they are married to a man who has no title of his own.

When Birgitte married Richard in 1972 she was given the styling of HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. When he inherited his father's titles she also stopped using the lower styling of Princess and started to use the higher title of Duchess.

Only one married in wife in the UK uses the style of Princess - Princess Michael of Kent. The others, Camilla, Kate, Sophie, Birgitte and Katherine all use Duchess or Countess as their titles because their husbands are peers of the realm while Prince Michael is still a commoner with no additional title to give his wife.

 

[Nordic]

Both Kate and Mary are princesses. Sure Mary is the Crown Princess - the same rank as Camilla but that doesn't mean that Mary isn't also a Princess and I don't think anyone has ever seen Kate curtsey to Camilla so she wouldn't be expected to curtsey to someone else of the same rank.
.

Curtseying or not curtseying,
Does Prince Charles and Camilla, the equivalent of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary in Denmark, outrank his son and the wife of his son, or not?

 

[wartenberg7]

Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?

LaRae

But both of them are Royal Highnesses, none of them is a "Majesty" - so Mary will only outrank Catherine when she became Queen of Denmark when it comes to curties. Royal Highnesses, normally, do not curtsey each other (yes, we´ve seen exceptions to the rule. But these have been performed just because of personal preference, not for reasons of royal protocol).
When it comes to seatings, walking in a procession etc. heirs to the throne certainly do outrank other prince/esses.

It´s such a treat for a Royalist that both the D and Dss of Cambridge attend Ascot for the first time while also the CP and CPss of Denmark also turn up! For me, only Haakon and Mette-Marit visiting the races could top that!

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

It was a wonderful surprise to see Frederik and Mary attend Ascot today, I wasn't expecting them to attend. It was to see the Cambridges there too for the first time, I liked seeing the photos of Catherine and Mary together. It would be nice, I agree, if the Cambridges could become closer to them, perhaps friendships between the Cambridges and other royals could then form as a result. It bothers me when newspapers/magazines compare Mary and Catherine though, their dresses were totally different today for me, I personally see no comparisons.

I also agree that it's possible that Frederik and Mary got an invitation from the Wessexes, since they've been friendly with each other for a while IIRC. However, HM is also friends with Queen Margrethe so it could have been HM herself who asked them to come.

Harry has been attending for quite a few years now.

Thanks for answering, I thought so but was still a little unsure. I remember seeing a photo of him at Ascot before, but my memory as a little hazy on that, so wanted to confirm.

 

[Countessmeout]

Curtseying or not curtseying,
Does Prince Charles and Camilla, the equivalent of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary in Denmark, outrank his son and the wife of his son, or not?

Yes. There is an order of precedence. Women's place of precedence changes a bit though if their husband is not present.

1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry
-James
-Peter
6. Brothers of the sovereign (none)
7. Uncles of the sovereign (none)
8. nepehews of the sovereign- Viscount Linley (so he comes after Peter)
9. grandsons of the former sovereign who are Dukes
-Duke of Gloucester
-Duke of Kent
10. grandsons of the former sovereign who don't hold a peerage- Prince Michael
Then you move into the clergy and nobility. The Duke of Norfolk is the highest ranked peerage outside the royal family.

The ladies take their precedence from their husbands. But if the men are not present then:

1. The Queen
2. Princess of Wales/duchess of Cornwall
3. queen's daughters- Princess Anne
4. queen's granddaughters-
-Bea
-Eugenie
-Louise
-Zara
5.daughters of the former sovereign (none)
6. granddaughters of the former sovereign- Princess Alexandra
7.wives of the son of the heir apparent- Kate
8. wives of the younger sons of the sovereign- Sophie

9. wives of the grandsons of the former sovereign (who are duchesses)
-Duchess of Gloucester
-Duchess of kent
10. wives of the grandsons of former sovereign who are not duchesses
-Princess Michael
-Patricia Lascelles

Husband being present makes a huge difference in the case of Kate.


Elizabeth changed it up though. Prior to 2005, Camilla would have taken precedence over all ladies, save for the queen, and Sophie after her. Princesses of the blood do rank in precedence above those married in, when their husbands are not there. But this is in a private.

 

[Nordic]

Yes. There is an order of precedence. Women's place of precedence changes a bit though if their husband is not present.
.

Thank you for your answer

My question was, in an oddly roundabout way, if Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark (and his wife), the British equivalent of Prince Charles, does outrank Prince William (is that his correct title?) and his wife, or not.

My question was not about who curtseys to whom, or who doesn't.

 

[TLLK]

"1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry"

Actually I believe it is the following based upon succession to the throneAdults only)
1.Sovereign-QEII
2. Spouse of sovereign-DoE
3. Eldest son of the sovereign-PoW aka the heir and spouse (Camilla)
4. Eldest son of the heir-Duke of Cambridge and spouse (Catherine)
5. Second son of the heir-Prince Harry
6. Younger sons of the sovereign-DoY and adult children then EoW and spouse (Sophie)
7. Princess Royal and spouse (Timothy)/adult children
8. Gloucesters
9. Kents

 

[Roskilde]

Nice pictures of Frederik/Mary, William/Kate and Edward/Sophie:

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=b09999a832fdfb01cc426c9cc5037d37&oe=57CEA470
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=fcbce4f9418cf633a95d9dd7e192b823&oe=57E585FF
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=94b61cb45054f0193f8dd964557f6a39&oe=57C91323
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=38a50fd4a6d2065666ec1d429a5d779c&oe=57E3ACF7
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=05471b338476bef123d71a0c6e2032b3&oe=57DDE3CB
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=3f2d490211382f937d31c12b8d17b406&oe=57C949EB
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/54...w3HVTQ/pCW5dPOQcMFZpswZmOCSEnjO9u1UZQM5nYEg==
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=5c688190231411168a8c7f527b914d69&oe=57E5A286

I'm almost 100 percent sure Mary's and Sophie's horse won here Excellent pictures
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=b039e3b09871ce88223c3b3fdc1526d2&oe=57C72D3D
https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=8cf9044f90ed0a49435f3f18a4f1514e&oe=57DECD89
http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi...rage_1/media/10.5733004bg_1.jpg?itok=95apL5dF

 

[Countessmeout]

Whether Crown princess or not, no Mary and Fred do not out rank William and his wife. Foreign royals do not feature in the order of precedence (which in recent years has also seen Will/Harry put above their Uncles). May and Fred would only out rank a HSH or HH, as their status is lower than a HRH. HRH's are all at the same level.

Precedence really comes only into play while ranking of the titles HM, HRH and so on. Among the sovereigns, they tend to be ranked depending on the length of their reign.

Just among the Europeans:
1. QEII
2. Margrethe
3. Carl Gustaf
4. Hans Adam
5. Harald
6. Henri
7. Albert of Monaco
8. WA
9. Philippe
10. Felipe

 

[Countessmeout]

"1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry"

Actually I believe it is the following based upon succession to the throneAdults only)
1.Sovereign-QEII
2. Spouse of sovereign-DoE
3. Eldest son of the sovereign-PoW aka the heir and spouse (Camilla)
4. Eldest son of the heir-Duke of Cambridge and spouse (Catherine)
5. Second son of the heir-Prince Harry
6. Younger sons of the sovereign-DoY and adult children then EoW and spouse (Sophie)
7. Princess Royal and spouse (Timothy)/adult children
8. Gloucesters
9. Kents

Precedence is not simply based on order of succession.QEII has made changes in the past few years, to better reflect the order of succession. So yes, William and Harry take precedence over their Uncles, in recent years. But that is only when the men are present. Kate still falls behind Anne and others when her husband is not present, as does Camilla. Which is a change, for during Diana's time, whether her husband was present or not, the Princess of Wales was only out ranked by the queen and queen mum.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Duke and Duchess of Cambridge make first Royal Ascot appearance | Daily Mail Online

Kate looks smashing! Great dress! Loving the hats this year as they are less 'fascinators' and more approaching real hats (more to them). They have my approval.

 

[Queen Camilla]

1. The Queen
2. dowager (none)
3. queen's daughters- Princess Anne
4. queen's granddaughters-
-Bea
-Eugenie
-Louise
-Zara
5.daughters of the former sovereign (none)
6. granddaughters of the former sovereign- Princess Alexanda
7. wife of the heir apparent- Camilla
8. wives of the son of the heir apparent- Kate
9. wives of the younger sons of the sovereign- Sophie
10. wives of the grandsons of the former sovereign (who are duchesses)
-Duchess of Gloucester
-Duchess of kent
11. wives of the grandsons of former sovereign who are not duchesses
-Princess Michael
-Patricia Lascelles

Husband being present makes a huge difference in the case of Camilla and Kate. Camilla, when her husband is there, is only second to the queen and DOE.


Elizabeth changed it up though. Prior to 2005, Camilla would have taken precedence over all ladies, save for the queen, and Sophie after her. Princesses of the blood do rank in precedence above those married in, when their husbands are not there.

Is this a fact or just a nasty lie started by the tabloids?

Where is the copy or press release when the Queen issued this?
From BP and not from the DM. BP issued them for Charlotte so where is the one claiming to demote Camilla?

Is the 2005 or 2006 edition of The royal blue book court and parliamentary guide available or did they cease publication?

 

[Queen Camilla]

Princess Mary and Frederik outranks William and Catherine

Princess Mary curtseyed to Camilla so Catherine should have curtseyed to Mary, if she had not done so privately.

 

[duchessrachel]

Both Kate and Mary are princesses. Sure Mary is the Crown Princess - the same rank as Camilla but that doesn't mean that Mary isn't also a Princess and I don't think anyone has ever seen Kate curtsey to Camilla so she wouldn't be expected to curtsey to someone else of the same rank.

In the UK the designation Prince/Princess is an indication of someone of lower rank than someone who is a HRH Duchess/Countess as it means they are married to a man who has no title of his own.

When Birgitte married Richard in 1972 she was given the styling of HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. When he inherited his father's titles she also stopped using the lower styling of Princess and started to use the higher title of Duchess.

Only one married in wife in the UK uses the style of Princess - Princess Michael of Kent. The others, Camilla, Kate, Sophie, Birgitte and Katherine all use Duchess or Countess as their titles because their husbands are peers of the realm while Prince Michael is still a commoner with no additional title to give his wife.

This is where I get confused. You said that Prince/Princess is someone of lower rank than a HRH Duchess/Countess. Wouldn't that make Kate higher than blood Princesses Bea and Eugenie? Yet, I read that the order of precedence was changed so that the blood princesses were actually of higher rank than Kate. That info may have been false that I read.