"Revenge" by Tom Bower (2022)

[Hallo girl]

And I'm still convinced they could have made a positive change, but if you want to change things you have to roughly understand the current situation and what are the basic starting points:
if you get on a soccer team and want to make a change so suggest they play volleyball instead because it's also a teamsport with a ball, that may not be a change that is useful for anyone. Nothing wrong with soccer, or with volleyball, but they are two separate things that exist perfectly fine along side eachother, but just coming in, not taking the time to understand the game, and just state that they have to change games will have very little chance to be succesful, and not just because the management of the club consist of 'stale' or 'grey' or 'male' persons...

I agree, they did have much to offer, and yes Meghans experience could have been drawn on, but they wanted to take over the world on their terms and had a tantrum when they were told no.

 

[kalnel]

Many thanks to our members who have had the opportunity to read Revenge and have taken the time to share their thoughts on it.

I agree. I'm about halfway through the book. I don't think people will find it nearly as controversial as they might assume.

 

[Hallo girl]

I agree. I'm about halfway through the book. I don't think people will find it nearly as controversial as they might assume.

I would concur, although I am going to back and read it again as I have been told that Tom Bower has a way with words that he can say things while remaining untouchable , you just need to work it out.

 

[Alison H]

I hate this whole "pale stale male" thing. It's hardly a crime to be white, middle-aged and male, and I don't know why people seem to think that it is.

And, yes, other people have acted unwisely in the past, but a) they've learnt from their mistakes and b) they've never attacked the Royal Family in a high profile TV interview. I'm sure that Edward's got plenty to say about the hassle he got from his family over leaving the Marines, but he's never said it publicly, and he's certainly never told a pack of lies about the way he thinks he was treated. I think that that Oprah interview was the point of no return. And, because of the animosity it caused, we'll keep getting books like this, until people get sick of hearing the same old, same old.

 

[Ista]

After finishing the book, I'd agree that it is not especially controversial, unless the reader has entirely accepted the Sussex version of every event. It covers a lot of familiar ground, gives background, offers details from interviews, and overall provides some context. I'd say that it is worth reading and making up your own mind over how reliable the many, many cited sources are in what they have to say.

 

[kalnel]

I'd say that it is worth reading and making up your own mind over how reliable the many, many cited sources are in what they have to say.

Good point, Ista. While the stories seem pretty credible, I've hit a few references where I wondered if Bowers was stretching things a little.

I shook my head a little reading the part about Meghan refusing to study "theatre" at Northwestern. Meghan literally was a "theatre major." It wouldn't have been optional for her, which the professor certainly would have known.

 

[Sun Lion]

Good point, Ista. While the stories seem pretty credible, I've hit a few references where I wondered if Bowers was stretching things a little.

I shook my head a little reading the part about Meghan refusing to study "theatre" at Northwestern. Meghan literally was a "theatre major." It wouldn't have been optional for her, which the professor certainly would have known.

I agree kalnel, there are some things that need fixing.

Not just typos, but errors, none of which would change the tone of the book, but there are a few stumbles on silly details.

 

[Sun Lion]

I would concur, although I am going to back and read it again as I have been told that Tom Bower has a way with words that he can say things while remaining untouchable , you just need to work it out.

I agree Hallo girl.

It seems crafted in a certain way that presents a scenario and you think, oh well there is what it says and then there is what it implies, almost like pregnant pauses in a conversation.

You come away thinking Mr Bower hasn’t shared everything he knows about a topic, he’s written just enough, but you have to engage as the reader.

Some passages leave you hanging a bit, very clever.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The problem for Charles is that he can't remove it from Archie and Lilibet without claims of racism unless he also includes other children of younger sons.

My suggestion by the way would see the Kent's, Gloucester's and Wessex's keep their HRHs.

My idea only affects the descendants of Elizabeth II - so not the Gloucester's or Kent's.

[...]

The only well-known adult HRHs who would definitely lose their HRHs in my suggestion are Beatrice and Eugenie - two of the least popular royals and most importantly non-working royals (and two who have been told that they never will be working royals).

I responded to your points here:

Stripping the York daughters wouldn't enable King Charles to avoid allegations of racism against the Sussex children. Following the Duchess of Sussex's interview with Oprah Winfrey, online discussion was replete with allegations of racism based on Archie being born without a royal title, despite the Wessex children, the Phillips children, the Snowdon children, and numerous other children of princes and princesses of the UK being in the same condition.

Besides, as matters currently stand, one could point at Princess Eugenie being the one other member of the royal family who recently has been visibly close to the Duke and Duchess of Sussex and allege that the stripping of the York daughters was an extension of anti-Sussex bias.

It would be off-topic and against forum rules to discuss other debates about the Sussex family, so suffice it to say that there have also been allegations of racism and Cambridge favoritism based on entirely different matters, and in order to avoid all such allegations the King would need to offer the Sussex branch not only titles but security funding, etc. equal to the Cambridge branch.

 

[Hallo girl]

I agree Hallo girl.

It seems crafted in a certain way that presents a scenario and you think, oh well there is what it says and then there is what it implies, almost like pregnant pauses in a conversation.

You come away thinking Mr Bower hasn’t shared everything he knows about a topic, he’s written just enough, but you have to engage as the reader.

Some passages leave you hanging a bit, very clever.

I read it in order but I am now going back to pick out certain chapters, to see if I can read between the lines so to speak.

 

[tommy100]

Without getting into the legalities of the the method, if Charles does take action to prevent Archie and Lili getting titles couldn't he simply point out that Harry and Meghan have left the Royal Family for a private life, talked repeatedly about the toll being part of the RF has had upon their mental health and decided to lead a life away from the RF and monarchy including living outside the country? He could in fact point out that he is following their wishes to "step back as senior members of the Royal Family" and is allowing them and their children time and space to lead lives independent of the Royal Family and without burden. He could also point to the couple's decision not to use the noble titles they are legally entitled to be using now as the parents setting the example.

TBH given how much Harry and Meghan clearly hate the whole "institution" and system it would be more surprising in many ways if they do allow their children to use royal titles.

Of course their most devoted fans will call racism whatever happens and will feel whatever decision is taken Harry and Meghan have been wronged. The above may be hard to sell to Sussex fans in the US and elsewhere but IMO would actually be well understood here in the UK and parts of the Commonwealth.

 

[Iluvbertie]

If Charles were to use such an excuse to only target Archie and Lili he will be called out on that as Beatrice and Eugenie don't do royal duties - at his insistence. So he either has to remove the HRH from all grandchildren of a sovereign other than those via the heir apparent or be called a racist or a hypocrite.

 

[Hallo girl]

Tatiana Maria

They cannot and will not receive equal to the Cambridges, firstly they do not carry out royal duties, secondly they do not even live here, and most importantly William is second in line to the throne followed by his children. Why should Harry and Meghan receive the benefits ,when they do not do any of the work. These are the facts regardless of any other spin that is put on it .

I will add that they were not exactly living as paupers when they were here.

 

[Alison H]

Of course their most devoted fans will call racism whatever happens and will feel whatever decision is taken Harry and Meghan have been wronged. The above may be hard to sell to Sussex fans in the US and elsewhere but IMO would actually be well understood here in the UK and parts of the Commonwealth.

I agree. Whilst obviously nothing that's happened is the fault of Archie or Lili, Harry and Meghan have criticised both the Royal Family personally and the Royal Family as an institution, over and over. And no-one seriously thinks that Charles is a racist: he's always worked very hard to bring different communities together. It is not Charles's job to sell anything to "Sussex fans in the US".

It would cause a lot more controversy to withdraw Beatrice and Eugenie's HRH styles. Both young women are now very popular with the public, and they haven't done anything wrong.

 

[Denville]

there is no reason why charles should take away the titles for |Bea and Eugeine... but it seems to me very odd that Harry and Meghan would want thier children to use HRH.. even if they have a right to it.

 

[muriel]

there is no reason why charles should take away the titles for |Bea and Eugeine... but it seems to me very odd that Harry and Meghan would want thier children to use HRH.. even if they have a right to it.

IMO, H&M only want titles for themselves and their children so that they can be monetised. Why else would they continue to use their titles in the US, titles provided by an institution and system they so despise, and one that has caused them so much pain.

 

[Alison H]

And, having turned down Earl and Lady, it would be very hypocritical of them to accept HRH Prince and Princess.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I suspect that they were trying to pressure HM into giving them HRH from birth and when that didn't happen they decided to go with the 'we don't want to burden them' route. The instant the Queen dies they will start using HRH Prince/Princess I am sure, with a condolence message being put out 'from HRH The Duke of Sussex, HRH The Duchess of Sussex, HRH Prince Archie of Sussex and HRH Princess Lilibet of Sussex' being issued literally within minutes.

 

[muriel]

I suspect that they were trying to pressure HM into giving them HRH from birth and when that didn't happen they decided to go with the 'we don't want to burden them' route. The instant the Queen dies they will start using HRH Prince/Princess I am sure, with a condolence message being put out 'from HRH The Duke of Sussex, HRH The Duchess of Sussex, HRH Prince Archie of Sussex and HRH Princess Lilibet of Sussex' being issued literally within minutes.

All entirely plausible.

 

[Denville]

IMO, H&M only want titles for themselves and their children so that they can be monetised. Why else would they continue to use their titles in the US, titles provided by an institution and system they so despise, and one that has caused them so much pain.

however I agree with the poster who said that if Charles made any moves towards changing the system, he would be accused of racism..... so he problaby will let things ride for now, when he becomes king.. and automatically, the children will get the HRH. however that does not mean they have to use it.

 

[JR76]

so he problaby will let things ride for now, when he becomes king.. and automatically, the children will get the HRH. however that does not mean they have to use it.

All this dawdling means that we now have several people who have HRH, but either can't or chose not to use it. Wouldn't it be better to make a decision and rip off the band aid now instead of postponing it. For Charles and William it would be better for it to happen now during the reign of Queen Elizabeth than one of them having to make that decision and face the attention it will get.

 

[muriel]

All this dawdling means that we now have several people who have HRH, but either can't or chose not to use it. Wouldn't it be better to make a decision and rip off the band aid now instead of postponing it. For Charles and William it would be better for it to happen now during the reign of Queen Elizabeth than one of them having to make that decision and face the attention it will get.

I agree with you, it may be better to "fix" the system in the current reign rather than be seen to be taking it away in the next one.

 

[kalnel]

Getting back to the book...it does discuss the issue of Meghan's reaction to Archie's title. Bowers points out something that had never really occurred to me: When Archie was born, Meghan and Harry were adamant that he not be call "prince" or use the title Earl of Dumbarton.

But, less than a year later, she was complaining to Oprah that he was being blocked from receiving the title of prince.

Maybe I slept through the coverage, but that does seem to be a huge about-face. It's the kind of thing a journalist of Oprah's level should have jumped on in the interview.

Bowers also repeats the claim that Meghan didn't want Archie to use Harry's subsidiary title Earl of Dumbarton, saying, "Hell no. No son of mine is going to be called 'Dumb.'"

I've read that in other places, but something about that comment has never rung true to me. I doubt Meghan is so unsophisticated that she'd say that, especially since I'm sure she heard all about Harry's titles when he received them at the wedding.

But if it is true, wow... (And thank goodness Harry wasn't made Earl of Atholl. Imagine what they'd call poor Archie then!)

 

[Denville]

All this dawdling means that we now have several people who have HRH, but either can't or chose not to use it. Wouldn't it be better to make a decision and rip off the band aid now instead of postponing it. For Charles and William it would be better for it to happen now during the reign of Queen Elizabeth than one of them having to make that decision and face the attention it will get.

so then the queen would be accused of racism

 

[Hallo girl]

so then the queen would be accused of racism

Either way they will be accused of something.

We cannot be sure what the original intention was, maybe Charles had always wanted Harrys children to be HRH, or maybe not and that is what Harry and Meghan were told at the time of Archies birth.

If they are given the titles they will be accused of giving in to them and admitting wrong doings if they refuse it then it will appear to back up Meghans story. I think somebody further up the thread had said maybe it should have all been laid out long before this with clear announcements to the effect not just discussions within the palace.

 

[Denville]

Either way they will be accused of something.

We cannot be sure what the original intention was, maybe Charles had always wanted Harrys children to be HRH, or maybe not and that is what Harry and Meghan were told at the time of Archies birth.

If they are given the titles they will be accused of giving in to them and admitting wrong doings if they refuse it then it will appear to back up Meghans story. I think somebody further up the thread had said maybe it should have all been laid out long before this with clear announcements to the effect not just discussions within the palace.

the children automatically become HRH when Charles becomes king. Im sure he would not wish to take away these titles from his grandchildren, and he expected Harry and Meghan to be working royals supporting him and William for life. but now they have walked out, and acted like they do not want to be royal at all.. and if Charles were now on becoming king, to raise the issue, its likely that the Sussexes will accuse him of wanting to attack their children because he's a racist, even if he only were to call them for a discussion on hte issue.

 

[Hallo girl]

the children automatically become HRH when Charles becomes king. Im sure he would not wish to take away these titles from his grandchildren, and he expected Harry and Meghan to be working royals supporting him and William for life. but now they have walked out, and acted like they do not want to be royal at all.. and if Charles were now on becoming king, to raise the issue, its likely that the Sussexes will accuse him of wanting to attack their children because he's a racist, even if he only were to call them for a discussion on hte issue.

Exactly he is in a no win situation.

Like you I thought he would want the children to have titles, and like you and me and lots of royal watchers we understood that they received the titles once Charles becomes king. Meghan put the cat among the pigeons when she inferred that Archie did not receive the title at birth for other reasons.

Once again she either didn't understand or wanted to stir the pot.

I have a feeling there is more to come from all this, it is far from over.

 

[Denville]

Exactly he is in a no win situation.

Like you I thought he would want the children to have titles, and like you and me and lots of royal watchers we understood that they received the titles once Charles becomes king. Meghan put the cat among the pigeons when she inferred that Archie did not receive the title at birth for other reasons.

Once again she either didn't understand or wanted to stir the pot.

I have a feeling there is more to come from all this, it is far from over.

well they WILL become HRH once charles becomes king unless the queen issues new letters patent which Im sure she would not do.....
. but now that Meghan has raised the issue in the way she did, I think that ANY attempt even to discuss whether younger children or grandchildren should have HRH will been a problem because Meg has basically said that Archie was not given HRH or security because of his color/race

 

[Stefan]

. but now that Meghan has raised the issue in the way she did, I think that ANY attempt even to discuss whether younger children or grandchildren should have HRH will been a problem because Meg has basically said that Archie was not given HRH or security because of his color/race

The RF should simply make a Statement why Archie didn't get a royal Titel because of the 1917 Letters Patent so there should be noe Issue about race7colour etc.

 

[Denville]

The RF should simply make a Statement why Archie didn't get a royal Titel because of the 1917 Letters Patent so there should be noe Issue about race7colour etc.

THey are not going to start a slanging match, they have just ignored the remarks with the queen saying that recollections may vary