Reburial of the remains of Alexei and Maria

[AristoCat]

How odd that they weren't buried with their family in the first funeral?

 

[BeatrixFan]

The remains hadnt been discovered at that time.

 

[J Kendrick]

From Interfax/Religion:

Talk of reburying remains of Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria premature - House of Romanov (updated) 2011-10-13 18:53:00

See: http://www.interfax-religion.com/print.php?act=news&id=8800

Moscow, October 13, Interfax - The Imperial House of Romanov led by Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna believes that it is premature to ask the Russian authorities to create a state commission for the reburial of Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria's remains, Alexander Zakatov, Director of the Chancellery of the House of Romanov, told Interfax on Thursday.

Earlier, some representatives of the House of Romanov circulated a statement at a press conference in St. Petersburg, arguing that the remains of Alexey and Maria should be buried in the St. Catherine Chapel of the St. Peter & St. Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg.

"The Russian Imperial House believes that everyone has a right to one's own opinion, including royal relatives. But what we see in this particular case is an ill-thought-out statement. Creating a commission and carrying out the reburial is impossible until the Russian Orthodox Church says its word," Zakatov said.

"At first the Church must spell out its substantiated and ultimate position and only then decisions can be made on reburying the remains found near Yekaterinburg. If those are the remains of members of the royal family, then they should certainly be buried in the sepulcher," he said.

Earlier, the House of Romanov questioned the remains' identity but said that it would wait for the Church to speak up on the issue.

"If it turns out that those are the remains of some other nameless martyrs, they also deserve proper burial. But it's impossible to repeat the sad situation of 1998, stage a show again, ignoring the opinion of the Church and that of the Imperial House," Zakatov said, referring to the first set of "Yekaterinburg remains".

As for the remains of two young bodies found in 2007, 70 km south of the first burial site, representatives of the Romanov family, who are pushing for the remains' speedy reburial, "are free to raise the issue as private persons", he said, adding that it was sad that they ignored the position of the Church.

A grave with nine bodies was found on Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road near Yekaterinburg in July 1991. The remains were identified as those of Tsar Nicholas II, his 46 year-old wife Alexandra Fyodorovna, their daughters Olga, 22, Tatyana, 21, and Anastasia, 17, doctor Yevgeny Botkin, aged 53, servants Anna Demidova, aged 40, Aloizy Trupp, aged 62, and Ivan Kharitonov, aged 48.

Fragments of human bones and teeth were discovered during archaeological excavation works 70 kilometers south of the first grave, at a depth of 60 centimeters, on July 26, 2007. The remains were not identified and the circumstances of the death were not established, but the location and look of the grave suggested that the remains were those of Crown Prince Alexey and his sister Maria.

Investigator Vladimir Solovyov, who was probing the criminal case of the murder of Nicholas II and his family, told Interfax in January that he does not doubt the identity of the remains found near Yekaterinburg.

Just one observation about the above report...

As I recall, the second burial site was just 70 metres from the first... whereas this latest news report now quotes Zakatov as having said that it was 70 kilometres... not 70 metres. So... has Zakatov been misquoted here... or has somebody in Maria's group been getting their wires crossed?

There is a thousand-fold difference between 70 metres (just under 50 yards) and 70 kilometres (forty three and a half miles). Surely, that's not the problem here. If Maria's group really do think that it's actually 70 kilometres between the two burial sites... and not just 70 metres... well...

Then, what does that tell us?

 

[BeatrixFan]

It seems to me that Her Imperial Highness is once again being cautious about such a big event. She said in an RT interview that the reason she was cautious about the first funeral was that she didn't feel that there was 100% proof that the remains were those belonging to the Tsar and his family. Her reasoning is that if she supported a reburial and said without question that they were the remains then faithful Orthodox Christians might venerate the remains as relics. If they were later proved not to be genuine then people would be deeply offended. So HIH is being cautious again and I can understand that. I think it's now unlikely that such a funeral would take place on the request of the lower branch of the Romanov family when it's obvious that the Kremlin regards Maria as the Head of the family.

 

[J Kendrick]

Church still to decide on identity of Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria's remains
2011-10-14 10:04:00
See: Interfax-Religion

St. Petersburg, October 14, Interfax - The issue of the identity of the remains of Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria's remains has not been discussed by the Russian Orthodox Church yet.

The remains were found near Yekaterinburg in 2007.

"No commission has been set up by the Church to identify the remains. The Synodal Canonization Commission has not discussed the issue either," Archpriest Georgy Mitrofanov has told Interfax-Religion.

The hierarchs have not asked the commission to look into the issue, he said.

On Thursday, representatives of the Imperial House of Romanov voiced their intention to ask the Russian authorities to set up a commission for the reburial of Alexey and Maria's remains.

Meanwhile, the head of the House of Romanov, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, said that any talk of reburial would be premature until the Church spelled out its position.

During the 1998 campaign for the reburial of the first set of "Yekaterinburg remains" - the remains of the imperial couple, three princesses and servants - the Church announced that it could not confirm their identity because there were questions to which answers had yet to be found.

"But some questions still have no answers. The Church has not changed its position as far as the 'first' remains are concerned: we stick to the Synod's decision passed in 1998. But this does not mean that it cannot be changed," the priest said.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The confusing part here is that the Imperial House hasn't asked for the Russian authorities to set up a commission at all. Relatives of the Romanov family have asked for the commission. The Imperial House is headed by the Grand Duchess, the Orthodox Church recognises her as such and I assume will only form such a commission if she asks them to.

 

[kell]

it isnt that confuseing they asked for the dagmar reburial last time as well in 2001 or 2000 something from both the denmark royal family and putin its expected for any relative to ask for a burial of such a important family

 

[BeatrixFan]

"They" being Maria as Head of the Imperial House and the Danish Royal Family. Again, it's who the request comes from that causes these problems. Another reason why the "relatives" should just let one person organize the affairs of the Imperial Family.

 

[kell]

they being the others not maria 2nd she hasnt done the planning since the kremlin kicked the special status thing in 1998 for her i should have been a lil more clearer in my earlier post keep forgetting what camp some are in and i rather not ruffle feathers

 

[AristoCat]

Why don't the Romanovs do this themselves instead of relying on the government? Cripes, there are members of the Russian government that are still descended from the people that butchered their family! Besides, the Russian government has a lot more on their mind than this.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The Imperial House can't just rock up to the Fortress with a couple of coffins. I assume (based on the reburial of Marie Feodorovna) that foreign royals and representatives would be invited, there's the practical side of things (road closures, security etc) and above all else, it's a cultural event which makes it very much a government matter.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

BeatrixFan is right -- there is more to this than just accommodating a family's wishes.

 

[AristoCat]

The Imperial House can't just rock up to the Fortress with a couple of coffins. I assume (based on the reburial of Marie Feodorovna) that foreign royals and representatives would be invited, there's the practical side of things (road closures, security etc) and above all else, it's a cultural event which makes it very much a government matter.

Quite right; in all honesty I don't see how on earth this owuld be done, but without it being a few years ahead of time.

 

[alexxiic]

Alexei Romanov

Alexei Nikolaevich Romanov did not die in Russia in 1918.
He survived and died in Australia in 1971.
He led a life not very unsimilar to his auntie Olga who passed away in Canada in 1960. Both simply wanted to live in peace on a farm far away from "Babylon".

If , at last, the world is interested and ready to listen...I can write more.
In 1918, he was found, very badly wounded, by my great-grandfather Alexei Orlov. With one leg in the grave, he survived and lived firstly in Latvia and then in Germany.
I am named after my grandfather...and also share his desire for peace and quiet...but...the burial and proposed reburial of "Alexei Nikolaevich" ...was simply too much...
God bless Russia

 

[Alexey 1904]

Sure, alexxiic, I'm ready to listen to/read another one of those 'miraculous' escape stories' of Anastasia or Alexis Romanov which seem to be appearing more and more lately. Was your great-grandfather 'The Kitchen Boy'?

AristoCat: I agree wholeheartedly with your post #40. The Russian gov't members do indeed have more on their minds than this topic. It is not just the gov't, either. Private citizens also say that 'it is just not important' to them. The remains will stay in the refrigerator for who knows how long, and that is not right they can't be put with their family, but apparently, such is the way it is with the Russian Church and the gov't.

 

[alexxiic]

Dear Alexey1904, My great grandfather was Prince Alexei Orlov. He saved a very badly wounded boy in 1918. The wounded boy was named Alexei and was born in 1904.His family was also killed in 1918. My grandmother Maria was the youngest daughter of Alexei Orlov. I also have a sister Maria.
My family is only just one example of those who lost their country, belongings, and identity . The most important thing that nobody could take away from us was our faith , Eastern Orthodox and love for our country.

 

[NGalitzine]

For all of the imposters that claimed to be rescued members of the Imperial Family it is a wonder that the Revolution succeeded at all. The Soviets must have been very bad shots given the number of people who claimed to have survived the basement shootings in the Ipatiev house. And poor Alexis who could be brought to deaths door merely by bumping his leg must have been truly miraculous to have survived both a storm of bullets and then the bayonet.
It is bizarre that nearly 100 years after the revolution these stories still come to light, long after the 20's & 30s when they were quite common.

 

[Alexey 1904]

Dear alexxiic: Fine. There's nothing wrong with having only your faith and love of your country to sustain a family when they have lost their identities,belongings and said country. But just because your great grandfather found a boy who said his name was Alexei and that he was born in the year 1904 does not make him the Tsarevich. It was good that your grandfather found him and he was .able to lead a life away from war in Australia. I have nothing else to say on the topic.

 

[alexxiic]

bizarre world

Like it or not, YES IT IS A VERY BIZARRE WORLD. Who thought that the bolsheviks would seize power? ...and when they actually did seize power ...now that was truly bazarre. Many Russian families were indeed "fortunate" to have escaped the Revolution of 1917 and ensuing Civil War 1918- ...Once abroad, in safety, many thought themselves safe whilst others were indeed traumatised especially those who had lost their entire family.Of course, these people changed their identities, and kept silent until their death. Whilst living in Germany, my family were in touch with certain Russian emigre families such as Galitzin , Naryshkin. Some moved on to the USA and Canada.My great grandfather Alexei Orlov- chose to remain near his SPb home... in Riga, Latvia. He was a very careful man, but notwithstanding this, he was nevertheless arrested when Latvia was occupied in 1940. He chose to stay.

 

[kell]

i gotta do it
AND THE BEAT GOES ON

 

[Daria_S]

For all of the imposters that claimed to be rescued members of the Imperial Family it is a wonder that the Revolution succeeded at all. The Soviets must have been very bad shots given the number of people who claimed to have survived the basement shootings in the Ipatiev house. And poor Alexis who could be brought to deaths door merely by bumping his leg must have been truly miraculous to have survived both a storm of bullets and then the bayonet.
It is bizarre that nearly 100 years after the revolution these stories still come to light, long after the 20's & 30s when they were quite common.

Indeed. The idea of anyone surviving that blood bath was always preposterous to me. No one, outside of a superhuman could have walked (or crawled) out of that basement. The Soviets may have been bad shots, but they certainly made sure that every single person that was supposed to be dead, was (and even if bayonets and bullets didn't completely kill, then being burned in the pit certainly completed the job). Whenever anyone would start talking about a 'survival story' they have seen on the History or the Biography Channel, I would roll my eyes and not even bother, since people will always believe exactly what they want, and swaying them has absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

 

[Stefanie]

When they had to make DNA-Tests to find out who is who was it accidentely figured out (or able to figure out) which of the four daughters had the Haemophila gen?

 

[stevek06]

Morality

But, the funeral will be very expensive.
In my opinion, I think it would be best to bury the remains of the children as soon as possible because the children deserve to have a proper burial along with the rest of the family. It's been over 90 years and it's time for them to give the children the resting place they've been waiting for 90 years. The economic crisis might take over four years to end, so that will still be a long time later.

The remains of the final two Romanov children should happen NOW. They were murdered in the most inexcusable way. Their bodies were treated with no respect. They were dumped !!

The economic crisis is irrelevant. They must have a Christian burial with the rest of their family. Anyone who fails to do this, when they can, is no better than Yurovski.

Bury them NOW !!!!

 

[stevek06]

I have a special interest. My own daughter died on 17th July, the anniversary of this disgraceful event

 

[stevek06]

This is very sad news. I was hoping that the remains of Alexei and Maria were going to be burried soon. But, after the economic crisis ends, the bones will be burried. The Russian Gov't is more concerned about handling the economic crisis.

I agree with Dr. William Maples. The remaining unburied daughter is NOT Marie. Her name is Marie, not Mariya ! When teh mass grave was uncovered the bodies were examined. Tatiana and Olga were easily identified but ther was disagreement over the identity of the third daughter who had been discovered. The Russians believed it was Anastasiya but Dr. Maples believes it is Marie. Olga was 5'3" tall, Tatiana was 5'4" tall but Marie, at 19 was taller. She was nearly 5'6" tall and this skeleton was clearly taller. Anastasiya was only 5'2" tall

But the sad and inexcusable fact is that she and Alexei remained unburied. They belong with their family and they must have a decent Christian burial NOW.

This was a terrible crime and the crime shall continue until the final two children are buried.

 

[stevek06]

When they had to make DNA-Tests to find out who is who was it accidentely figured out (or able to figure out) which of the four daughters had the Haemophila gen?

Unfortunately DNA has limitations and it is not possible to discover whether the daughters were carrying haemophilia. But it is passed on by the mother to the son and there is no reason to believe that any of the girls were carrying it. It originated from Queen Victoria's family but she was clear. So the four girls probably did not have it !!

 

[TomBert]

The gene can also pass also from mother to daughter, so there is every reason to believe that one or more of the girls were carriers. I think the probability for a carrier's daughter also being a carrier is 50%.

 

[stevek06]

The gene can also pass also from mother to daughter, so there is every reason to believe that one or more of the girls were carriers. I think the probability for a carrier's daughter also being a carrier is 50%.

I think that you are probably right. 50% is the probable likelihood. Haemophilia was in the genes of the family of Queen Victoria. This is the origin of Alexei's affliction. But Queen Victoria was NOT a carrier. It is possible that the Romanova girls could have been carriers but it is just as reasonable to assume that they were clear.

What are your views on the remaining two bodies ?

I believe that it is VERY wrong to abandon them. They should be buried decently, with the rest of their family, regardless of the cost and inconvenience. I am also convinced that the girl is Anastasiya and NOT Marie, as is being claimed. In the picture of the mass grave, body 5 clearly has long legs. Marie was taller than her sisters and I agree with Dr. Maples. This is the body of Marie. There is no short girl in the mass grave so it is clear to me that Anastasiya was certainly missing.

Interested in your opinions !

Steve

 

[LauraS3514]

The gene can also pass also from mother to daughter, so there is every reason to believe that one or more of the girls were carriers. I think the probability for a carrier's daughter also being a carrier is 50%.

"Traditional" hemophilia is genetically recessive - i.e. if you have one "good" gene you aren't affected. A woman carrier has a 50/50 chance of having an affected son, and each of her daughters has a 50/50 chance of also being a carrier. It's possible for the bad gene to pass "silently" for several generations - especially if only daughters are born. However, since the gene is carried on the X-chromosome and men have only one X, if they get their mother's "bad" gene, then they get hemophilia- and ALL their daughters are carriers. It is theoretically possible for there to be a female hemophiliac: if an affected father has a daughter with a carrier mother; this is very rare. Before modern medicine and artificial clotting factors such girls usually died at puberty.

 

[stevek06]

Thanks for the information. But whether Olga, Tatiana, Marie or Anastasiya were carriers of Haemophilia seems rather irrelevant now. We will never know and it really does not matter.
This vicious murder should never have happened and it could have been avoided and now the remaining two children must be laid to rest with the rest of the family. There is no question of this. It does not need to be a full state funeral. A private Romanov funeral would suffice.

As far as blame is concerned I know that the Russians blame King George V but I believe that teh Germans must accept a great part of the responsibility. In 1918 the Bolsheviks wee force to enter the Brest Litovsk Treaty with Germany to end the hostilities of the First World War. The Germans appear to have been more interested in taking control of Ukraine. But they should have insisted that Tsar Nicholas II be surrendered to them as a prisoner of war. Alexandra was a German so she should have been released into the custody of the Germans. If this had happened the lives of the daughters would have been spared. Alexei would have gone with his mother because of his health problems. It would have been a much better way to deal with the Romanovs.

I believe that the Germans should accept very much of the blame and it would be quite fitting if the present German Government contributed to the cost of the funeral of Alexei and Anastasiya ( or Marie depending on what you believe )