Reburial of the remains of Alexei and Maria


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What purpose would that serve?
 
:previous:
In short ... The ROC has been maintaining that the authorities failed to definitely prove the identity of the remains. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, in her turn, has been supporting the view of the ROC on the matter.
It is impossible to tell why the Russian authorities decided to give in and re-open the case. The official reason is that new evidence has surfaced and new tests will be carried.
 
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Al_bina said:
:previous:
In short ... The ROC has been maintaining that the authorities failed to definitely prove the identity of the remains. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, in her turn, has been supporting the view of the ROC on the matter.
It is impossible to tell why the Russian authorities decided to give in and re-open the case. The official reason is that new evidence has surfaced and new tests will be carried.
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Yeah... I'm still not getting the purpose of this.

To me, the ROC's refusal to accept the conclusions of the study/studies that have been done is rather silly. I get that the testing was done by Western scientists but it seems to me that the whole denial is basically them going "well, of course Western scientists wouldn't tell us the truth/actually know the truth."

Ultimately though, the idea that a church is insisting on the exhumation of human remains so that scientists can take samples from them, then take samples from other remains, then process these samples (and in doing so destroy them) in order to determine if all the remains are related is absurd. I get the scientists wanting to do it because of the great search for knowledge and all that, but the church... the church is supposed to protect people after they've passed. I can't see how this does that.

That's what kind of disgusts me about this. Not the fact that Russian scientists want to do it, or that Russian authorities are consenting to it. I would expect the same of any scientists in any nation, and I think most authorities given enough pressure and not enough resistance to an idea will consent after a time. But that the ROC is the driving force behind it is another matter. It goes against what a church should be doing to me.
http://www.theroyalforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 
The reality is that the ROC is an organ of the Russian State.. it was under Tsarism, was under Communism and is now under what ever 'ism' one chooses to classify the current regime.

It goes against what a church should be doing to me.
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The Heads of the ROC in Russia sound like a bunch of bullheaded individuals. If they didn't recognize the rest of the Tsar and his family, why are they buried in a Russian Church?
 
:previous:
Fairly speaking, the ROC expressed its doubts from the very beginning. It has not changed its stance on the matter. That is all.
Jul. 10 1998 00:00

ST. PETERSBURG -- With a week left before the burial of Russia's last tsar and his family, the already scandal-tainted ceremony suffered a further blow to its credibility this week when a leading branch of the Romanov family said it would be staying away.

Grand Duchess Leonida Georgiyevna, grandmother of 16-year-old Prince Georgy, one of the leading pretenders to the Romanov throne, said her family would not be attending because they were unhappy with the organization of the funeral.

Patriarch Alexy II, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, said earlier this year that doubts about the authenticity of the remains, to be buried in St. Petersburg July 17, meant he could not take part. President Boris Yeltsin signaled soon after that he will not attend.
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Romanovs Stay Away From Tsar's Burial | News | The Moscow Times
The Russian Orthodox Church and the House of Romanov still dispute the authenticity of the remains of the royal family discovered near Ekaterinburg and buried in St. Peter and Paul's Fortress.

The Russian Investigative Committee does not doubt the authenticity of the remains of Tsar Nicholas II and his family, and additional examinations will be conducted following a request from the Russian Orthodox Church, committee spokesman Vladimir Markin has said.

"The recent resumption of the criminal inquiry is not an attempt to revise the earlier received evidence and the established facts. Rather, it is an exclusive need to additionally examine the newly uncovered facts, which has been requested by the Russian Orthodox Church," he said.
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ROYAL RUSSIA: News, Videos & Photographs About the Romanov Dynasty, Monarchy and Imperial Russia - Updated Daily
 
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I wonder whether the Russian Orthodox Church may be requiring further authentication because of the family's canonisation as Martyrs or Passion-Bearers: would that have a bearing on the importance of the location of their interment being correctly ascertained?
May they rest in peace.
 
Yes this is about canonization and relics and how they need absolute verification. They believe these are the remains and canonized them anyway but had doubts and have waited for more verification before burying Alexei and Maria. There are discrepancies between the location and state of the bodies vs the Sokolov group investigation, the 1918 White Guards Investigation and other documentation - i.e. bodies were expected to be dissected and destroyed all together with sulphuric acid yet these bodies weren't. They also now have DNA from the remains of the Tsarina's sister Grand Duchess Elizabeth Fyodorovna and Tsar Alexander II. So once this is all authenticated they can do a burial ceremony for Alexei and Maria. In 2018 on the 100th anniversary the church will again remember them and they want there to be no doubt of the authenticity of the relics by then.

Russia exhumes bones of murdered Tsar Nicholas and wife - BBC News
 
Alexey 1904 said:
The Heads of the ROC in Russia sound like a bunch of bullheaded individuals. If they didn't recognize the rest of the Tsar and his family, why are they buried in a Russian Church?
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The Russian Orthodox Church has canonized Tsar Nicholas II and his family, martyrs in the eyes of the Church. The official stance is that the Church wants to be absolutely sure that the remains, attributed to the Tsarevich and his sister Grand-Duchess Maria, are indeed theirs and can be added to their parents and siblings. As they are canonized, the graves of the last Tsar and his family are a place of pilgrimage. The Church does not want to rely on external testing but wants to have a full and detailed report from experts they themselves have appointed. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Valerie Rose said:
I wonder whether the Russian Orthodox Church may be requiring further authentication because of the family's canonisation as Martyrs or Passion-Bearers: would that have a bearing on the importance of the location of their interment being correctly ascertained?
May they rest in peace.
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Yes that is it. They do not want to see people making pilgrimages to visit graves of Martyrs and Saints but not being sure if it indeed are the Tsarevich and his sister Grand-Duchess Maria.
 
Video report of the forthcoming burial of Alexei and Maria -

Началась дополнительная генетическая экспертиза останков Романовых / Новости культуры / Tvkultura.ru

On 18 October - Saint's day of Tsarevich Alexei, the last heir to the Russian throne. After almost a century, this day can find one more symbolic meaning - it is regarded as a possible date for the burial of the remains of Tsarevich Alexei and his sister Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna.
Details of the upcoming ceremony is kept in strict confidence. But in St. Catherine chapel, where is buried the family of the last Russian emperor, is works in full preparation. Access is closed, and before it is installed a picture: it shows the plate with the names of Maria Nikolaevna and Alexei Nikolayevich which were established in 1998. They are no different from the rest, except for one detail - they left the place where, after October 18 will be carved the last date.
"The family clearly believes that those remains. The family clearly recognizes the remains. For history is important because it closes some pages, some of the stages of Russian history"- said the representative of the Association of the Romanov dynasty in Russia Ivan Artsishevsky.
Now will be buried children - emphasize the Peter and Paul Cathedral staff - representatives of the Romanov dynasty. That is what will determine the scenario of the ceremony first. And secondly, the high status of Tsarevich Alexei and Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna.
 
It is praised that maximum clarity is wanted about the DNA of the Tsarevtich and his sister.
 
I have a theory about the latest round of testing. In 1998 Patriarch Alexy II could not (or would not) recognise the remains. He died in 2008 and his successor Patriarch Kirill may now want to settle this issue once and for all. But if Patriarch Kirill just recognised them without further testing, it might be seen as a criticism of Patriarch Alexy II's stubborn refusal to do so, and his failure to preside at the funeral of the glorified Passion Bearers. This way, Patriarch Kirill can recognise the remains of those already buried, and those still languishing in the Russian State Archives. Because his decision will be based on new evidence, he can do so without the implied criticism of his predecessor. Then the entire family can finally be laid to rest with the appropriate liturgy. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens after the exhumation and testing of Emperor Alexander III.
 
I agree with your assessment. It is walking eggs for the Russian Orthodox Church, they want to avoid the fathful to venerate "Saints" and "Martyrs" while in reality it are the bones of an unknown Mr X or Mrs Y.
 
I wonder if the remains of the last Tsars sisters Xenia and Olga will ever be reburied in their native Russia?


Grand Duchess Xenia is buried in the South of France
Grand Duchess Olga is buried in Canada
 
Was the exhumation of Tsar Alexander III done to obtain DNA to confirm his son Nicholas's identity, or those of his grandchildren Alexei and Maria?

May they all rest in peace.
 
Remains of Tsesarevich Alexey, Grand Duchess Maria transferred to Novospassky Monastery

Moscow, December 24, Interfax - The remains of two children of Russia's last Emperor Nicholas II, Tsevarevich Alexey and Grand Duchess Maria, are in the Novospassky Monastery in Moscow, Sergey Mironenko, a member of the State Archive and a member of the governmental working group, told Interfax.
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Remains of Tsesarevich Alexey, Grand Duchess Maria transferred to Novospassky Monastery | A Russian Orthodox Church Website
 
Why would you canonize people who were hardly saints.
 
The Roman Catholic Church does it all the time, so why not the Russian Orthodox?
 
Those poor innocent murdered offspring of the Tsar and Tsarina might not have been saints but were hardly devils either and they were by all accounts extremely devout.
I just hope that this latest investigation doesn't take years. The family should lie in peace together.
 
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