Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022


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Agree.

It's very odd relationship.

But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.
Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?
And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?
Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?
I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?

You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.

Very insightful, Muhler. Also, since Prince Richard's passing a lot of things have changed considerably.
 
Well done HRHAmie, I think you very well could be right! It does look like Carina and she has attended the hunt with Gustav in past years. Regarding Princess Benedikte's birthday celebrations, it was reported Gustav was ill, we don't really know anything further. Regarding Alexandra's marriage to Count Michael Preben Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille this past May, Gustav attended but I've been unable to confirm if Carina was also there. https://www.purepeople.com/article/...lexandra-a-dit-oui-au-comte-michael_a337472/1. (Scroll to 4th pic)



You’re right, he was ill. That’s an acceptable excuse for him, but do you think if Carina still wanted to go she could have? Or is it only with him she could go? I’m not sure on the court protocol of the DRF in these instances. I’d assume since Queen Margarethe is so open Carina would be welcome to come by herself but maybe that doesn’t hold true for her sister as well? Although Princess Benedikte has been quite liberal and welcoming of the relationship thus far. I’m only asking bc I really don’t know.

As for Alexandra’s wedding, I remember Carina posting a photo of her on her god child’s bike so she was definitely in Denmark just not at the wedding. Maybe some sort of conflicting scheduling went on but I still find it odd she’d pick seeing her god daughter - seeing as it wasn’t a christening or anything - over her partner’s wedding.

It’s just so odd.....btw she hasn’t been to Schloss Bad Berleburg in quite some time either. I’d think if they were still together she would be posting from her IG account a lot more in Germany like she used to? ??*♀️
 
Agree.



It's very odd relationship.



But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.

Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?

And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?

Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?

I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?



You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.



It could be! But I find it odd they have been living together for a long period of time now in Schloss Berleburg castle, yet now she decides to live full time in England while not posting anything about Gustaf. It looks to me like a breakup but it could be them just taking time apart...who knows but I agree with you, it’s definitely odd.
 
Agree.

It's very odd relationship.

But then again the marriage between Prince Richard and Benedikte wasn't exactly ordinary either! They lived for considerable periods of their lives apart. Prince Richard around his beloved Berleburg and Benedikte either performing duties in DK or attending equestrian events.
Perhaps that was the secret to their stable marriage?
And perhaps the extended periods apart is the secret to Gustav and Carina's relationship?
Some people simply need a lot of personal space, perhaps that applies to G&C?
I.e. if they lived together they would wear each other out?

You be the judge, because it's a relationship I personally have problems comprehending.



I noticed that they have not be seen for a while but could it be that until the court case is resolved they are laying low as a couple? Wasn't one of the arguements against Gustav the fact that he is in a relationship with someone he could not marry according to his grandfather's will? I thought that came up somewhere.
 
I noticed that they have not be seen for a while but could it be that until the court case is resolved they are laying low as a couple? Wasn't one of the arguements against Gustav the fact that he is in a relationship with someone he could not marry according to his grandfather's will? I thought that came up somewhere.

The judges look at the legal set up of the House properties not to the relationshipa of the individuals. Not even the conditions are at stake (the Chef of the House should marry a fellow protestant noble lady) but the possible workings of the Will as a Fideïcommis (binding the hands of a heir). In many countries outside the Anglosaxon sphere such a Fideïcommis is not allowed.

An example:

A = grandfather
B = father
C = son

A leaves 100.000 Euro to B, on condition he passes this amount to C (but can use the rent on the 100.000 Euro) . This is letting B inherit the 100.000 from A indeed but prohibiting him to use it as he, on his turn, has to pass it to C.

That is a real Fideïcommis: an inheritance in three stages, surpassing generations.

The complicated legal question however is if there is an unlawful fideïcommis here. The Fürst (Prince Gustav) has the complete usufruct of his enormous inheritance. He is not limited like heir B in the example I gave.

The only point is that there is a desire to keep the properties from generation to generation in the hands of the Fürst, respecting House Laws (the Fürst has to maintain the standing and prestige of the House by conducting a marriage within his rank and keep the House Protestant).

Does that affect Prince Gustav's human right to marry anyone he likes? Not at all. He can marry a Hindu bride from New Delhi tomorrow, if he wishes so. No problem. But then he breaks the House Laws and another Berleburg whom did marry according rank indeed will knock at the door and point to the legal arrangements.

The question is if it is illegal to have a condition attached to a Will. We have already seen that it is illegal to limit heir B for the benefit of heir C. But that is not the case here. Is it - for an example- allowed to have a Will which says that money must be kept in trust until the age of 25? Is it allowed to let your son inherit your house on condition that your wife/his mother, may live there for the rest of her life? These conditions are not usual.

The question is: is it reasonble that the Head of an aristocratic and protestant House has the usufruct of the House fortune under condition of keeping said House aristocratic and protestant? Note that the knife has two edges: exactly because of these very same House Laws, Gustav got an imposant ancestral estate, studded with unbelievable artworks, is one of Germany's biggest private landowners and enjoys great wealth.

It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.
 
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It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.

Thank you for your description! And from what I did read the case is even more complicated, because it is in front of a "Landwirtschaftsgericht" [1], a civil court for agrarian issues, which goes back to the Nazi jurisdiction. And part of the case is the question, if Prince Gustav is capable to lead such a big agrarian enterprise[2].

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwirtschaftsgericht
[2] https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/siegen/c-lokales/es-geht-um-500-mill-euro_a114808
 
The judges look at the legal set up of the House properties not to the relationshipa of the individuals. Not even the conditions are at stake (the Chef of the House should marry a fellow protestant noble lady) but the possible workings of the Will as a Fideïcommis (binding the hands of a heir). In many countries outside the Anglosaxon sphere such a Fideïcommis is not allowed.

An example:

A = grandfather
B = father
C = son

A leaves 100.000 Euro to B, on condition he passes this amount to C (but can use the rent on the 100.000 Euro) . This is letting B inherit the 100.000 from A indeed but prohibiting him to use it as he, on his turn, has to pass it to C.

That is a real Fideïcommis: an inheritance in three stages, surpassing generations.

The complicated legal question however is if there is an unlawful fideïcommis here. The Fürst (Prince Gustav) has the complete usufruct of his enormous inheritance. He is not limited like heir B in the example I gave.

The only point is that there is a desire to keep the properties from generation to generation in the hands of the Fürst, respecting House Laws (the Fürst has to maintain the standing and prestige of the House by conducting a marriage within his rank and keep the House Protestant).

Does that affect Prince Gustav's human right to marry anyone he likes? Not at all. He can marry a Hindu bride from New Delhi tomorrow, if he wishes so. No problem. But then he breaks the House Laws and another Berleburg whom did marry according rank indeed will knock at the door and point to the legal arrangements.

The question is if it is illegal to have a condition attached to a Will. We have already seen that it is illegal to limit heir B for the benefit of heir C. But that is not the case here. Is it - for an example- allowed to have a Will which says that money must be kept in trust until the age of 25? Is it allowed to let your son inherit your house on condition that your wife/his mother, may live there for the rest of her life? These conditions are not usual.

The question is: is it reasonble that the Head of an aristocratic and protestant House has the usufruct of the House fortune under condition of keeping said House aristocratic and protestant? Note that the knife has two edges: exactly because of these very same House Laws, Gustav got an imposant ancestral estate, studded with unbelievable artworks, is one of Germany's biggest private landowners and enjoys great wealth.

It is a very complicated legal minefield with pitfalls. Gustav of course also wants to protect the centuries old estate and does not want all protection go, seeing it fragmented over dozens of heirs, subjected to hefty taxes and resulting in loosing the economic model of castle + lands + enterprises together maintaining the ancestral estate.


Thanks so much for the clarification, it's so terribly complicated.
 
:previous: Thank you to both Duc_et_Pair and Victor1319. This is very complicated.
 
Back to if Carina and Gustav are together - I have been following both her accounts on Instagram and I’ve noticed that she is having someone take pictures of her so...she either has an assistant of some sort (although she has never mentioned employing one) OR it is Gustav himself that is with her in England.

Yes, she could have a camera stand or selfie stick but the reason I think this is highly u likely is, in some pics she is on a hike and is sitting down with her dogs. No way she could take a selfie like that. And she has no extra bags or way to carry something like that around with her on a hike. Plus who would want to do that if you’re not a professional landscape photographer.

I’m assuming he goes and stays with her in England for a period of time then goes back to Germany.

But the question still remains, why is she living in the UK full time now when she has lived with him at Schloss Berleburg-Wittgenstein for so long? Now that Prince Richard has passed is she not welcome there? Did someone make her feel unwelcome? I’m wondering if it has something to do with the Will.
 
:previous: I think there are more questions than answers when it comes to their current relationship. If Gustav and Carina are still together it's in England and not Germany. The legal disputes and intricacies stemming from the will Prince Gustav's grandfather left are ongoing. I thought there was another court date set up for July but with covid it may have been postponed. I believe part of the legal dispute has to do with Prince Gustav unmarried, without an heir and appearing to live in a "marriage-like community". Now that Carina lives on her own property in England and not with Gustav at Schloss Berleburg the "marriage‐like community" no longer exists, if that is even still disputed. https://www.castleholic.com/2020/01/the-infamous-sayn-wittgenstein.html?m=1
 
Is he living alone in Berleburg Castle ?

I have visited Berleburg Castle several times. I have seen Princess Nathalie coming back from the horse ride and she is also living there...

Prince Richard and Princess Benedikte also lived there, but not exactly in the very Castle but in a white house behind the Castle, belonging to the property also, but can't be seen from the entrance.

https://www.luftbildsuche.de/info/l...-wittgenstein-nordrhein-westfalen-353708.html

In this link there is aerial view of Bad Berleburg and you will see the white house in front of the Castle where Princess Benedikte and Prince Richard lived...Now Benedikte lives in the house alone when she is in Bad Berleburg.

Prince Gustav and Carinna live in the left wing of the Castle:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad_Berleburg_Schloß.jpg

Central part of the Castle and right wing is currently used as a museum.
 
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Now that Prince Richard has passed is she not welcome there? Did someone make her feel unwelcome? I’m wondering if it has something to do with the Will.

I don't think it has anything to do with Richard. Prince Gustav was someone who was in control of everything even during Richard's life.

As I explained, Gustav and Carinna lived in the very Castle (left wing of the Castle), while Prince Richard and Princess Benedikte lived in a separate white house on the property, so it's not like they all lived under one roof. Based on that I don't think anyone except Gustav can make direct impact on Carinna's life.

I don't think it also has anything to do with a will...Bad Berleburg is a beautiful, but very small place where the Castle and a park with a lake behind is the center of almost everything and I completely understand if someone wants to spend greater amount of time living in a bigger city where you can have more opportunities depending on what you want to do with your life.
 
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I don't think it has anything to do with Richard. Prince Gustav was someone who was in control of everything even during Richard's life.

As I explained, Gustav and Carinna lived in the very Castle (left wing of the Castle), while Prince Richard and Princess Benedikte lived in a separate white house on the property, so it's not like they all lived under one roof. Based on that I don't think anyone except Gustav can make direct impact on Carinna's life.

I don't think it also has anything to do with a will...Bad Berleburg is a beautiful, but very small place where the Castle and a park with a lake behind is the center of almost everything and I completely understand if someone wants to spend greater amount of time living in a bigger city where you can have more opportunities depending on what you want to do with your life.

Isn't teh issue that Gustavs father's or grandfather's will forbids marriage to a "Non Aryan"? so if they mary he would lose his property
 
It is indeed an odd relationship.

But some people thrive on not being together too much. Benedikte and Prince Richard weren't exactly joined by the hips during there long and by all accounts satisfactory marriage.
Perhaps Gustav and Carina simply need a lot of personal space?

They don't have children, so that is no reason for them to be together a lot. Nor are they spring chickens anymore, sooo they may not be... shall we say... be unable to keep their hands from each other as is typical in a newer relationship. ;)

We may hope so.
 
Isn't teh issue that Gustavs father's or grandfather's will forbids marriage to a "Non Aryan"? so if they mary he would lose his property

The supposed Aryan requirement is totally irrelevant here as the minimum bar is: a standesgemäß (equal standing) union with a Protestant nobleman's daughter.
 
I have visited Berleburg Castle several times. I have seen Princess Nathalie coming back from the horse ride and she is also living there...

Prince Richard and Princess Benedikte also lived there, but not exactly in the very Castle but in a white house behind the Castle, belonging to the property also, but can't be seen from the entrance.

https://www.luftbildsuche.de/info/l...-wittgenstein-nordrhein-westfalen-353708.html

In this link there is aerial view of Bad Berleburg and you will see the white house in front of the Castle where Princess Benedikte and Prince Richard lived...Now Benedikte lives in the house alone when she is in Bad Berleburg.

Prince Gustav and Carinna live in the left wing of the Castle:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad_Berleburg_Schloß.jpg

Central part of the Castle and right wing is currently used as a museum.



Wow! Thank you for this picture. This seems very roomy for 3 people. Even the back house that Princess Benedikte lives in is very lovely.

I’m not sure we will ever know what is going on with Carina and Gustav but I just find it very odd that they have lived together for so long in schloss berleburg and now she seems to be living alone in England. The fact that she didn’t attend Princess Alexandra’s wedding either last year and that Gustav seems to be nowhere in sight these days.

Just odd in my opinion.
 
The supposed Aryan requirement is totally irrelevant here as the minimum bar is: a standesgemäß (equal standing) union with a Protestant nobleman's daughter.


With a queen regnant as your aunt, that could be worked through. The queen could have created Carina a countess of something before the marriage and faiths can be changed.



If I could have switched a small part of my genealogy from female to male, so my father was a count and not just the grandson of one, I'd have changed my religion easily for a marriage with a prince like Gustav! Given him a son and then gotten a financially attractive divorce... Why not? As the Aryan requirement is not a problem with me... (not that I agree with that at all, but both my parents had Aryan-passports.)


Point is that Gustav is not married. So IMHO the will was fulfilled. For his grandfather can't force him to marry to fulfill it. He can say what kind of woman he can or can't marry in order to inherit, but he can't force him through withdrawal of inheritance to marry at all.



Plus nowadays (see the Saxony-Gessaphe-case) even Nobles with a Royal lineage prefer to give their inheritance to their sister's children than to a distant cousin. So Gustav leaving Berleburg to one of his sister's offspring is quite thinkable.
 
but it seems if he married the woman he presumably was in lovewith, he would lose his inheritance...
 
but it seems if he married the woman he presumably was in lovewith, he would lose his inheritance...


I think so, yes. If he had married Carina, he would have lost his inheritance. The ruling in the Leiningen and other cases make that clear. It's your money when you make a will and you can use a wrong marriage as a reason to not leave it to a potential heir.



But you can't forece a marriage onto someone who is not willing to marry. That would be against "Treu und Glauben" and thus invalid.
 
With a queen regnant as your aunt, that could be worked through. The queen could have created Carina a countess of something before the marriage and faiths can be changed.



If I could have switched a small part of my genealogy from female to male, so my father was a count and not just the grandson of one, I'd have changed my religion easily for a marriage with a prince like Gustav! Given him a son and then gotten a financially attractive divorce... Why not? As the Aryan requirement is not a problem with me... (not that I agree with that at all, but both my parents had Aryan-passports.)


Point is that Gustav is not married. So IMHO the will was fulfilled. For his grandfather can't force him to marry to fulfill it. He can say what kind of woman he can or can't marry in order to inherit, but he can't force him through withdrawal of inheritance to marry at all.



Plus nowadays (see the Saxony-Gessaphe-case) even Nobles with a Royal lineage prefer to give their inheritance to their sister's children than to a distant cousin. So Gustav leaving Berleburg to one of his sister's offspring is quite thinkable.

I doubt Queen Margrethe can create titles of nobility outside the royal family, let alone to non-Danish nationals. Carina is a citizen of the United States. Gustav is a citizen of Germany.

Ennobling Carina still does not make her a "Protestant Nobleman's daughter".

But all this is no any hindrance for Gustav and Carina. They can marry right now and Carina can become the Fürstin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. No any problem. No any law stops them.

Except possibly a required condition in a Will, which can be contested by other heirs. But marriage on itself: they can order a carriage to the townhall right now.
 
I have visited Berleburg Castle several times. I have seen Princess Nathalie coming back from the horse ride and she is also living there...

Prince Richard and Princess Benedikte also lived there, but not exactly in the very Castle but in a white house behind the Castle, belonging to the property also, but can't be seen from the entrance.

https://www.luftbildsuche.de/info/l...-wittgenstein-nordrhein-westfalen-353708.html

In this link there is aerial view of Bad Berleburg and you will see the white house in front of the Castle where Princess Benedikte and Prince Richard lived...Now Benedikte lives in the house alone when she is in Bad Berleburg.

Prince Gustav and Carinna live in the left wing of the Castle:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad_Berleburg_Schloß.jpg

Central part of the Castle and right wing is currently used as a museum.
The castle is stunning as is the white house of Princess Benedikte,I just assumed the queens sister lived at the castle.
 
I doubt Queen Margrethe can create titles of nobility outside the royal family, let alone to non-Danish nationals. Carina is a citizen of the United States. Gustav is a citizen of Germany.

Ennobling Carina still does not make her a "Protestant Nobleman's daughter".

But all this is no any hindrance for Gustav and Carina. They can marry right now and Carina can become the Fürstin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. No any problem. No any law stops them.

Except possibly a required condition in a Will, which can be contested by other heirs. But marriage on itself: they can order a carriage to the townhall right now.


As I explained before: as long as Gustav does not marry, he has the best chance to become the owner of the inheritance from his grandfather. If he marries Carina, he will loose it. As soon as he has inherited, he can marry Carina without a problem.
 
With a queen regnant as your aunt, that could be worked through. The queen could have created Carina a countess of something before the marriage and faiths can be changed.


But that doesn't make her a truly noble. So the question if it would be accepted. There was one case in the 19th century where one of the Fürst's zu Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt in old age and widowed married His cossen one was a daughter of a Prince Anhalt from a morganatic marriage. In Order to make her equal she was adopted by a relative and became Princess of Anhalt. But this was not accepted by the House of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt.

When the House of Schwarzburg was nearing extinction in the male line their son was later accepted as dynast but only after all other males have died.
 
I doubt Queen Margrethe can create titles of nobility outside the royal family, let alone to non-Danish nationals.

That is my understanding as well. The Danish and Swedish constitutions do not explicitly disallow the monarchs from creating nobility, but they also do not confer the authority on the monarch to do so. Danish and Swedish royal experts generally seem to interpret this constitutional situation as allowing the monarch to create titles only for members of the the royal house.
 
That is my understanding as well. The Danish and Swedish constitutions do not explicitly disallow the monarchs from creating nobility, but they also do not confer the authority on the monarch to do so. Danish and Swedish royal experts generally seem to interpret this constitutional situation as allowing the monarch to create titles only for members of the the royal house.

I also suspect that even if she could or wanted to do so, it would be highly controversial for her to ennoble the girlfriend of her nephew just so that they could marry "equally" in a country that doesn't even legally use/accept titles any more at that

And that still doesn't clear up the "non Aryan" section of his grandfather's will does it?

I suspect we won't know for sure what's going on with these two unless Carina mentions on her blog that she and her boyfriend have split up or are doing something together.
 
I also suspect that even if she could or wanted to do so, it would be highly controversial for her to ennoble the girlfriend of her nephew just so that they could marry "equally" in a country that doesn't even legally use/accept titles any more at that

And that still doesn't clear up the "non Aryan" section of his grandfather's will does it?

I suspect we won't know for sure what's going on with these two unless Carina mentions on her blog that she and her boyfriend have split up or are doing something together.

I think its quite appalling.. but I suppose he is not goig to risk his inheritance by marrying her...
 
But that doesn't make her a truly noble. So the question if it would be accepted. There was one case in the 19th century where one of the Fürst's zu Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt in old age and widowed married His cossen one was a daughter of a Prince Anhalt from a morganatic marriage. In Order to make her equal she was adopted by a relative and became Princess of Anhalt. But this was not accepted by the House of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt.

When the House of Schwarzburg was nearing extinction in the male line their son was later accepted as dynast but only after all other males have died.


Of course she would not be a true noble. But she would have been able to fulfill the will's stipend. Not as an Aryan, though.



But the example you give, Stefan, is from the last but one century, before the nobility was declaired void as a social class. Nowadays it is just the will of the owner of a huge fortune and his testament... People are free to do what they want, only they will not inherit... While back then it was really a question of a social position which you either had or hadn't.
 
That is my understanding as well. The Danish and Swedish constitutions do not explicitly disallow the monarchs from creating nobility, but they also do not confer the authority on the monarch to do so. Danish and Swedish royal experts generally seem to interpret this constitutional situation as allowing the monarch to create titles only for members of the the royal house.
I had a look through the Danish constitution and found Chapter 8 §83 - "Enhver i lovgivningen til adel, titel og rang knyttet forret er afskaffet." (Any privilege attached to nobility, title, rank is abolished). The last paragraph of the commentary states as follows - "Grundlovsbestemmelsen afskaffer rettighederne én gang for alle. Men den afskaffer ikke retten til at adle bestemte folk. Det har dog ikke den store betydning i dag." (The Constitution abolishes these rights once and for all but it doesn't remove the right to ennoble certain individuals. This is of no real importance today.). Apparently the Danish Parliament is of the opinion that the Danish monarch could ennoble someone but that it's deemed irrelevant today.

Regarding Sweden there is no need for the law to disallow the monarchs from creating nobility since, as you write, they don't confer them the authority to do so. The monarch simply lost that authority when the old §37 from the Constitution of 1809 was removed and not included in the Constitution of 1974.
 
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I had a look through the Danish constitution and found Chapter 8 §83 - "Enhver i lovgivningen til adel, titel og rang knyttet forret er afskaffet." (Any privilege attached to nobility, title, rank is abolished). The last paragraph of the commentary states as follows - "Grundlovsbestemmelsen afskaffer rettighederne én gang for alle. Men den afskaffer ikke retten til at adle bestemte folk. Det har dog ikke den store betydning i dag." (The Constitution abolishes these rights once and for all but it doesn't remove the right to ennoble certain individuals. This is of no real importance today.). Apparently the Danish Parliament is of the opinion that the Danish monarch could ennoble someone but that it's deemed irrelevant today.

Thanks! I stand corrected regarding Denmark. I wonder whether the commentary is legally binding (although that would be properly discussed in the Denmark forum).
 
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