Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022


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I also suspect that even if she could or wanted to do so, it would be highly controversial for her to ennoble the girlfriend of her nephew just so that they could marry "equally" in a country that doesn't even legally use/accept titles any more at that

And that still doesn't clear up the "non Aryan" section of his grandfather's will does it?

I suspect we won't know for sure what's going on with these two unless Carina mentions on her blog that she and her boyfriend have split up or are doing something together.


The supposed "Non-Aryan section" is an empty egg as any "Protestant Nobleman's daughter" most likely will be "Aryan".


Carina is "Aryan" in both meanings of the word anyway:

- "Indo-European" (the original etmyology of the word), Carina is from scandinavian and hispanic descent

- "Nordic/Germanic/North European" (the narrowing of the original etmyology by Nazi-ideologists): Carina is from a Swedish father
 
The supposed "Non-Aryan section" is an empty egg as any "Protestant Nobleman's daughter" most likely will be "Aryan".


Carina is "Aryan" in both meanings of the word anyway:

- "Indo-European" (the original etmyology of the word), Carina is from scandinavian and hispanic descent

- "Nordic/Germanic/North European" (the narrowing of the original etmyology by Nazi-ideologists): Carina is from a Swedish father


I think the Mexican/Latino-descent would be difficult to explain away.
 
Thursday evening the Oberlandesgericht in Nordrhein-Westfalen ruled that Prince Gustav is entitled to stay at Schloss Berleburg.
https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/bad...bschaftsstreit-entschieden_a205483?ref=curate
https://www.bt.dk/royale/bizar-royal-arvestrid-afgjort-tyske-prins-gustav-maa-beholde-sit-slot

As you may recall, after the death of Prince Richard, Prinz Ludwig-Ferdinand contested Prince/Prinz Gustav's right to live at and live off Schloss Berleburg, because he was living in a de facto marriage with Carina Axelsson.
The local court ruled in favor of Prince Gustav last year, but that ruling was appealed - and now it's final, Prince Gustav is entitled to live at and live off Schloss Berleburg.

I wonder if this is the reason why Gustav and Carina have lived separate lives recently? To help the argument that they do not live in a de facto marriage.
Well, there is nothing to hinder Carina from returning to Berleburg again and take up the life as lady of the manor once again.
The question is of course whether Gustav, based on this ruling, dare marry Carina?
Because it's most unlikely they will now have children of their own. So it is guessed that Prince Richard, the son of Princess Alexandra, who now lives at Egeskov castle married to Count Ahlefeldt, will take over Schloss Berleburg when Gustav dies.
 
Thursday evening the Oberlandesgericht in Nordrhein-Westfalen ruled that Prince Gustav is entitled to stay at Schloss Berleburg.
https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/bad...bschaftsstreit-entschieden_a205483?ref=curate
https://www.bt.dk/royale/bizar-royal-arvestrid-afgjort-tyske-prins-gustav-maa-beholde-sit-slot

As you may recall, after the death of Prince Richard, Prinz Ludwig-Ferdinand contested Prince/Prinz Gustav's right to live at and live off Schloss Berleburg, because he was living in a de facto marriage with Carina Axelsson.
The local court ruled in favor of Prince Gustav last year, but that ruling was appealed - and now it's final, Prince Gustav is entitled to live at and live off Schloss Berleburg.

I wonder if this is the reason why Gustav and Carina have lived separate lives recently? To help the argument that they do not live in a de facto marriage.
Well, there is nothing to hinder Carina from returning to Berleburg again and take up the life as lady of the manor once again.
The question is of course whether Gustav, based on this ruling, dare marry Carina?
Because it's most unlikely they will now have children of their own. So it is guessed that Prince Richard, the son of Princess Alexandra, who now lives at Egeskov castle married to Count Ahlefeldt, will take over Schloss Berleburg when Gustav dies.


Is Schloss Berleburg not property of the House Sayn-Wittegenstein-Berleburg (Wittgenstein-Berleburg'sche Rentkammer)?

When it would be inherited by Gustav's sister Alexandra Gräfin Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille née Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, it will leave the House and become property of her son (from her first marriage) Richard Graf von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth.

It would surprise me that the Fürsten zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg have done everything to maintain their historic patrimonium and it would then become property of the Grafen von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth...
 
:previous:

You tell me. ?

I'm merely the bringer of tidings. :writing:
 
:previous: Well, happy day! ? I had posted a few days ago wondering if the courts had made a ruling yet. Thank you Muhler for this post :flowers: So now what? Certainly a big win for Prince Gustav. Hopefully this is the last Gustav will hear from the aging bad boy great-uncle Prince Ludwig-Ferdinand. Something makes me think Gustav and Carina have been laying very low and now we may see more of Carina at Scloss Berleburg with Gustav. I like happy endings. Of course, there are future inheritance issues to sort out. Hopefully we will continue to see more happy endings, boy gets the girl and the castle!!
 
It would surprise me that the Fürsten zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg have done everything to maintain their historic patrimonium and it would then become property of the Grafen von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth...

Well that might be the next court battle, it doesn't seem they have ruled on inheritance, just that Prince Gustav is allowed to live there. At the moment his heir is Prince Robin but he could wish to leave the property to his nephew and let the patrimony go hang. He wouldn't be the first one.
 
I wonder if Princess Benedikte is still living as Dowager in her Husband Castle ?
She likes to have an officlal life in Denmark as the Queen Sister.
Was she popular among the German Royals ?
 
Is Schloss Berleburg not property of the House Sayn-Wittegenstein-Berleburg (Wittgenstein-Berleburg'sche Rentkammer)?

When it would be inherited by Gustav's sister Alexandra Gräfin Ahlefeldt-Laurvig-Bille née Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, it will leave the House and become property of her son (from her first marriage) Richard Graf von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth.

It would surprise me that the Fürsten zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg have done everything to maintain their historic patrimonium and it would then become property of the Grafen von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth...


When the monarchies ended in Germany, with them ended the exixtence of trust that were entailed, meaning the estate and money had to stay together and had to be inherited by the senior member of the family, who then should have cared for the family.


Back then, the contents of the trust became the properity of the current owner, to do with them as he pleased. Since then, you need to have the okay from all potential heirs when you want to leave the majority of your property to one person. Because of that, a lot of properties have been sold and the gain shared. Other families found a way (like the Thurn & Taxis) but the princesses surely got enough money never to be poor in their life.



Prince Gustav's grandfather had only one child, Prince Richard, so he could do what he did: leave the properties to his (unborn) grandson but give prince Richard the right to enjoy the whole property as long as he was alive. To properly inherit, the grandson, Gustav, had to marry properly.



And here lies the problem with the laws: Grandfather dies, Richard gets the control over the property for life. Son Gustav will get it once his father died and the property becomes his private property then.



He could only loose it once he married the wrong woman. Thus - he doesn't. According to German law no testament can force him to marry at all, it can only say if the choice of bride is okay or not.



IIRC the grand-uncle of Gustav claimed that it wasn't proper to not getting married because he lived together with his girlfriend and in doing so, was trying to omit the "wording" of the testament ("Marriage"), but that he fulfilled the testament's "sense" and thus couldn't inherit.



I have yet to read the reasons for the verdicts but as the lawyer of Gustav's granduncle thinks about moving to the Bundesverfassungsgericht, I think the main problem was if the testament meant "marriage" or in a wider sense "all relationships where the woman was actually the chatelaine of the property". For as I stated, you cannot force an heir to marry, if he doesn't want to.



It seems the courts stuck to the traditional meaning of "marriage" and actually married in that sense, Gustav hasn't been and thus inherited.



Hope this helps to understand the problem.
Now Gustav is free to leave the property to whoever he wants. And of course, to marry Carina. To adopt his sister's son and make him the next prince. Or adopt someone else. He is free to do what he wants.
 
I wonder if Princess Benedikte is still living as Dowager in her Husband Castle ?
She likes to have an officlal life in Denmark as the Queen Sister.
Was she popular among the German Royals ?

I was there last summer for the last time and the tour guide said that she is spending one part of the year there.

But, assuming that her husband Richard died, her eldest daughter Alexandra married Count Ahlefedt who owns a beautiful Egeskov Castle in Denmark, which also means that maybe her Pfeil und Klein-Elguth grandchildren are also spending a lot of time there with their mother, I believe that Benedikte now spends less time in Bad Berleburg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egeskov_Castle

Don't know exactly, but I assume she is popular among German royals, who are mostly "old school", as Benedikte is.
 
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Well that might be the next court battle, it doesn't seem they have ruled on inheritance, just that Prince Gustav is allowed to live there. At the moment his heir is Prince Robin but he could wish to leave the property to his nephew and let the patrimony go hang. He wouldn't be the first one.

If Prince Gustav is "allowed" to live there, that doesn't make sense that Schloss Berleburg is becoming his personal property.

Don't know...I also don't think that future will see Count of Pfeil taking over Schloss Berleburg, with so many Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg living members. It would make even a bigger fuss.

But, don't know.
 
Well that might be the next court battle, it doesn't seem they have ruled on inheritance, just that Prince Gustav is allowed to live there. At the moment his heir is Prince Robin but he could wish to leave the property to his nephew and let the patrimony go hang. He wouldn't be the first one.


That verdict was the ruling of the inheritance. The court ruled that prince Gustav is the heir and has a right to be issued the "Erbschein" - the legal statement of inheritance. There is now a time frame in which hi
os grand-uncle can try to have that overruled by the next, last instance of the Court of Constitutional issues, but honestly I don't see them ruling that "Marriage" is not a formal state of being together, which has to be witnessed by someone with the legal authority, but is based on the simple fact of living together without legal acknowledgement. That would change so much in Germany, I don't see that happening at all!
 
Ok, thank you for clarifying. Interesting.
 
:previous: Well, happy day! ? I had posted a few days ago wondering if the courts had made a ruling yet. Thank you Muhler for this post :flowers: So now what? Certainly a big win for Prince Gustav. Hopefully this is the last Gustav will hear from the aging bad boy great-uncle Prince Ludwig-Ferdinand. Something makes me think Gustav and Carina have been laying very low and now we may see more of Carina at Scloss Berleburg with Gustav. I like happy endings. Of course, there are future inheritance issues to sort out. Hopefully we will continue to see more happy endings, boy gets the girl and the castle!!

There was zero comma zero hindrance for Prince Gustav and Carina to live at Schloss Berleburg anyway. Prince Gustav is the head of the House and for every generation Schloss Berleburg has been at the disposal of the Fürst indeed. As I thought: the Schloss is part of the properties of the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and not private property.

I understood there possibly will be an appeal to the Bundesverfassungsgericht, the German Constitutional Court.
 
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There was zero comma zero hindrance for Prince Gustav and Carina to live at Schloss Berleburg anyway. Prince Gustav is the head of the House and for every generation Schloss Berleburg has been at the disposal of the Fürst indeed. As I thought: the Schloss is part of the properties of the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and not private property.

I understood there possibly will be an appeal to the Bundesverfassungsgericht, the German Constitutional Court.

Hronology of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg case:

Part I year: 2015: https://www.castleholic.com/2015/07/castletalk-infamous-sayn-wittgenstein.html

Part II year 2018: https://www.castleholic.com/2018/08/new-developments-infamous-sayn.html

Part III year 2020: https://www.castleholic.com/2020/01/the-infamous-sayn-wittgenstein.html

It is explained some things I didn't know or understand.
 
There was zero comma zero hindrance for Prince Gustav and Carina to live at Schloss Berleburg anyway. Prince Gustav is the head of the House and for every generation Schloss Berleburg has been at the disposal of the Fürst indeed. As I thought: the Schloss is part of the properties of the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and not private property.

I understood there possibly will be an appeal to the Bundesverfassungsgericht, the German Constitutional Court.

In reviewing recent posts on this thread there appears to be differing opinions. I don't think the question was whether Gustav and Carina could actually physically live together at the Schloss, I think the question was related to recent legal challenges brought to court by Gustav's great uncle Prince Ludwig-Ferdinand.

No doubt Gustav will continue to have further legal challenges in regard to his inheritance. Obviously I have "Zero" knowledge of German inheritance law. However, I am married to an attorney here in the US. I remember when we moved to Idaho and he took additional courses at the University of Idaho law school in land management and contracts in order to pass the Idaho bar. Coming from NYC his background and education at Seton Hall didn't cover that area of law. So it would be great if anyone on the forums who has a background in German law and has read the current case briefs and recent court opinions could enlighten us on the outcome of Gustav's most recent court battle with his great uncle.

Until then, I think I will continue to do a happy dance for Gustav and Carina.
 
Obviously I have "Zero" knowledge of German inheritance law. However, I am married to an attorney here in the US. I remember when we moved to Idaho and he took additional courses at the University of Idaho law school in land management and contracts in order to pass the Idaho bar. Coming from NYC his background and education at Seton Hall didn't cover that area of law. So it would be great if anyone on the forums who has a background in German law

Well, US and UK use different law system than it is used in Continental Europe.

Germany among other European continental countries use Civil law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)

US and UK use different system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

So, the cases in two different systems can't be easily compared as they can be completely differently solved.
 
In contrary to what popular media and many in this forum write, the alleged "Aryan clausule" in Prince Gustav Albrecht's Will is a myth.

In dem Testament sei weder die Rede davon, dass die zu heiratende Frau seines Enkelsohns arisch, noch evangelisch sein müsse.

(In the Will, there was no mention of the fact that his grandson's to-be-married-wife, had to be Aryan or Evangelical.)

So berufe sich Prinz Ludwig-Ferdinand auf eine Passage des Testamentes, die die Nacherbfolge an verschiedene Bedingungen knüpfe, zu denen unter anderem gehöre, dass bei Eingehung einer Ehe die Ehefrau des Nacherben adeliger Abstammung sein und die Aufnahmebedingungen nach der Satzung der deutschen Adelsgenossenschaft aus der Zeit erfüllen muss.

(Prince Ludwig-Ferdinand, for example, refers to a passage in the Will that links the succession to various conditions, including, among other things, that if a marriage is made, the wife of the heir is of noble descent, meeting the conditions according to the Statute of the Deutschen Adelsgenossenschaft from the time.)

So in contrary to popular image, Prince Gustav-Albrecht was not at all a fanatic Nazi handwriting a clausule in his Will, reserving a perfect blonde Nordic noble lady for his grandson. He simply refers to the requirement of a bride meeting the Statute of the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft (which was a legal body, established in 1874, during the monarchy).

In contrary to popular belief the so called "Aryan clausule" has nothing to do with the Nazis. What was the case? In 1918 the monarchy dumbled down. No longer there were sovereigns acting authoritative on matters of nobility. In the Weimar Republic the nobility lost all privileges. To keep the German nobility 'noble" indeed, the admission rules were tightened to keep "scheinadeligen" (fake nobles) away. In this attempt the Adelsgenossenschaft went very restrictive: members could enregister themselves in the Liste des reinblütigen deutschen Adels (List of pure-blooded German Nobility) and in the various Almanachs, this reference would be added to the enlisted family.

In the Hitler era, German society was "gleichgeschalted" which means: all unions, organizations, clubs had to fly the banner of Nazism. In an attempt to prevent a take-over of the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft by the Nazis, the Statutes were "nazified" . This attempt was succesful: until the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 (by Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg and other nobles) the German nobility was relatively kept undisturbed by the Nazi fanatics.

As Prince Gustav-Albrecht made his Will in the Hitler era, logically his reference to the Statutes of the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft has become problematic as this society, until 1945, had this lip service to the Nazis indeed.

The battle is in fact: can a reference to Statutes of an organization which does not exist anymore in that form (it was changed in 1945) still have juridical consequences in 2020? But of course that is not as easy and as juicy as "Nazi Prince Wants His Grandson To Marry An Aryan" which is nowhere to read at all!
 
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:previous:
AFAIK the nobility association added the Aryan-requirement in 1920 already and as the will is based on these statutes, it is indeed a requirement. Protestant not so much, as there are Catholic nobles enlisted as well.


Just to explain German law:

Germany's constitution upholds the idea of the freedom of the individual. That means: what is not ruled in law, can be done as people please.



"Marriage" is something defined by law and you cannot claim the living together of two people is a "marriage", as we don't have a "common law" definition. Prince Gustav is not married.



While I would be happy (I have a German law degree) to explain the case in more details, I don't have access to further information. If someone could send this to me, I'd be willing to explain it for all of us.
 
:previous:
AFAIK the nobility association added the Aryan-requirement in 1920 already and as the will is based on these statutes, it is indeed a requirement. Protestant not so much, as there are Catholic nobles enlisted as well.


Just to explain German law:

Germany's constitution upholds the idea of the freedom of the individual. That means: what is not ruled in law, can be done as people please.



"Marriage" is something defined by law and you cannot claim the living together of two people is a "marriage", as we don't have a "common law" definition. Prince Gustav is not married.



While I would be happy (I have a German law degree) to explain the case in more details, I don't have access to further information. If someone could send this to me, I'd be willing to explain it for all of us.


Indeed, Prince Gustav is not married. But my point was about the portraying of a sort of Evil Grandfather Enforcing His Innocent Grandson To Marry An Aryan. The Prince wanted to ensure that his noble House remains noble, which is on itself not a strange wish. That after 1918 the Adelsgenossenschaft introduced the idea of "reinblütige Deutsche Adel since 1800" has now been infected with the disgusting national-socialist twist to that. But he himself married a countess from a French family which belongs to then "introduced nobility" in Sweden but can hardly be classified as " reinblütige Deutsche Adel since 1800".

Anyway, I hope things will be settled indeed and I am curious what will happen when Prince Gustav has no issue, as the historic fideïcommis holding the massive partimonium was exactly introduced to keep it all together for the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.
 
It might not have been strange 100 years ago to want the house to remains "noble" but that was a long time ago.. and it seems to me quite odd that it is sill considered OK to have a will in place that denies someone the right to marry the woman they choose, because she si not "noble"....
Germany has been a republic now for a very long time. Surely it shoudl Not be possible.
 
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:previous: It is still legal to make wills that contains such stipulations.



You must see it the way it is in Germany: when you make your will, you dispose of your own property the way you see fit. Of course you cannot force an heir to behave in a way that is considered against "good manners" ("Gegen die guten Sitten"). Thus you cannot force an heir to marry. But of course you can request that an heir marries a lady you find suitable. Because you can withhold your inheritance from an heir who has married a lady who doesn't fulfill your stipulations.



So trying to "protect your bloodline" is surely nothing to declare a will void about. That Prince Gustav's grandfather chose this definition, which included the "Aryan"- principle (as invented in the 19. century), well, he was raised during these times.


Family-fideikomisses did not exist anymore in 1943 or were in the process of being dissolved or reformed. This was done to prevent the sale or dismantelling of collections of national interest. Special courts decided which parts of a family's belongings became part of such protected collections and who is the one to handle the collection. As long as it was garanteed that the collection (I guess we could call the palace and the land of the Berleburg that) stayed in the family, the current owner could put stipulations on the offspring to select the new heir according to these rules.



We don't know enough about the Berleburg properties to say more, just that obviously Gustav's grandfather owned such a protected "collection" of heirlooms and Prince Richard was the next to govern it till after his death the collection was looking for a new owner with a right to control it.



Which is Gustav now.
 
It might not have been strange 100 years ago to want the house to remains "noble" but that was a long time ago.. and it seems to me quite odd that it is sill considered OK to have a will in place that denies someone the right to marry the woman they choose, because she si not "noble"....
Germany has been a republic now for a very long time. Surely it shoudl Not be possible.

This does not hinder Prince Gustav in any way to marry the woman he loves. He can order a carriage right now and ride to the townhall to marry whoever he wishes, noble or non noble, male or female.

That this has possible consequences for a Will is a different matter. Imagine that someone has written in his Will that the beneficiary must be 25 years of age and have finished university. Imagine that the intended beneficiary has done nothing but partying and has not enrolled university. Perfectly and rightly his free choice. But with that he misses a condition in said Will.
 
Prince Gustav should have married a Royal, have Children . After Divorce back to Carina.
 
Prince Gustav should have married a Royal, have Children . After Divorce back to Carina.

Are you really advocating he should have used another person as a commodity just to ensure his inheritance?
 
And harm eventual children by breaking up a family.

And by the way, are a racist conditions of receiving inheritance in acordance with current German Constitution?
 
:previous: A big thank you to everyone for further explanations, especially Kataryn and also Duc_et_Pair. Keeping the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg assets and properties together seems to be the main goal of the grandfather's will. How that has been interpreted over time with all of the changes Germany has gone through has come into question, at least in the most recent court proceedings brought by Gustav's great uncle. Going forward we will have to see, but for now the Berleburg properties are intact and Gustav is in charge. Again, feel free to correct me on this.
 
And harm eventual children by breaking up a family.

And by the way, are a racist conditions of receiving inheritance in acordance with current German Constitution?

What you label as the so-called "racist condition" is not in the Will, so has been revealed. One of the conditions of the Will was that the beneficiary must be married with a lady whose family meets the admission requirements of the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft. With other words: the family must be enlisted in their Almanach.

That is the - on itself not so spectacular - condition. However, with the fall of the monarchy in 1918 and the loss of authoritative sovereigns to decide in matters of Nobility, in an attempt to keep the Nobility (which lost all rights and privileges) and to fence off "fake nobles", the Statutes were made stricter: "reinblütige Deutsche Adeligen" (German Nobles of pure blood). In the Nazi era, in a (succesful) strategy to escape a take-over by the Nazis, the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft introduced the term "Aryan" in their Statutes (read: no Jews allowed).

That is it. This Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft is no more. The current Deutscher Adelsrechtsausschuß is the successor in juridic matters.

It would have been no problem if the grandfather of Prince Gustav had required: the beneficiary of his Will must marry a partner whose family is enlisted in the Handbuch des Deutschen Adels. Had the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft been existing today, they for sure would have updated their Statutes.

The Will is victim of being frozen in time (the grandfather went missing in action in 1944, during WWII) and the Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft was in ruins after 1945 now half of their members lost all and everything under Communist rule and the loss of enormous German territories to Poland, Czechoalovakia, the USSR, etc.

Only in 1969 the grandfather was declared dead and only then his Will (which he could never update) was executed.
 
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This does not hinder Prince Gustav in any way to marry the woman he loves. He can order a carriage right now and ride to the townhall to marry whoever he wishes, noble or non noble, male or female.

That this has possible consequences for a Will is a different matter. Imagine that someone has written in his Will that the beneficiary must be 25 years of age and have finished university. Imagine that the intended beneficiary has done nothing but partying and has not enrolled university. Perfectly and rightly his free choice. But with that he misses a condition in said Will.

That is hardly the same thing. Gustav is it seems a hard working man who is willing to look after his inheritance.. ad he's told that if he marries the woman he loves, he may/will lose that inheritance.. just because she is not "noble" or !"aryan."
 
What a story , I remember Prince Richard Mother was not allowed to wear the family Fringe tiara at his Son's Wedding ...
 
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