New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Fence Sitter]

I think I'm repeating myself, and many other, more experienced posters, but even so, two points need to be made/repeated:

- I don't think modelling work itself has ever been a problem for The Queen. However, cashing in by using a royal title, especially with the erroneous predicate "HRH" as was the case in the Raffles commercial, is another matter. Some might say that this is only a minor detail, but this whole soap opera is a result of minor details leading to bigger and often unintended consequences.

- Previously the system with titles was rigid. Every single person titled "prins til Danmark" or "prinsesse til Danmark" was in the line of succession. And then on the other hand, no one else ever was, at least not without conditions (I avoid the question of Benedikte's children for the time being). By not giving official approval to a royal marriage was the only instrument used by the Sovereign to make the Royal House smaller, and so, marriage to a commoner was only allowed if the commoner was not Danish. I believe that The Queen herself understood that this logic simply didn't work anymore. It would be indefensible to withhold approval from marriages of Joachim's children to Danish commoners. Nobody would understand a decision like that anymore. And because of all the uncertainties of the last years, Covid included, it certainly makes sense to have more people in the line of succession than previously, just in case. Yet having an ever-increasing number of princes/princesses would never do. So, the logical conclusion would have been to end the connection between princely titles and succession rights.

Now Nikolai, Felix, Henrik and Athena can marry who they like and there will be considerably less restrictions to the careers they could make. Each of them loses a title personally, for a limited period of time, but their descendants could possibly enjoy succession rights for generations to come, something that would be of value not just for them but for the institution of Danish monarchy itself.

 

[Prinsara]

I think I'm repeating myself, and many other, more experienced posters, but even so, two points need to be made/repeated:

- I don't think modelling work itself has ever been a problem for The Queen. However, cashing in by using a royal title, especially with the erroneous predicate "HRH" as was the case in the Raffles commercial, is another matter. Some might say that this is only a minor detail, but this whole soap opera is a result of minor details leading to bigger and often unintended consequences.

The entire point of the commercial was an assemblage of people with titles, though, including Nikolai's cousin Olympia (I'm not sure if she was titled "Denmark" or just "Greece"). He works as "Prince Nikolai", not "His Highness of Denmark". Not only is it far more likely Raffles or someone on their side made the HRH error as opposed to Nikolai who knows perfectly well what his title is, we don't know that Nikolai isn't the one who got it corrected.

And again, we do know when Nikolai was asked to do something in the job that would have brought far more embarrassment and concern to the DRF — appear (strategically) nude — he cited his grandmother and said no. There's nothing to show he was ever careless with his position, unconcerned with who he was, or solely bent on "cashing in".

 

[Alison H]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...pc=UE01&cvid=2c71a157214a4de18990ebd16fa7b4fa

They're apparently having "peace talks".

 

[Javaward]

First of all, thank you to the posters who took the time to answer my newbie questions.?

It seems that the central issue is not if Joachim's children should have a prince/princess title but the fact that it was given and taken away.

There just does not seem to be any defensible reason why this happened in the first place - if the CP never had kids, they could have a had a promotion instead of this mess.

As for the negative reactions to the two eldest leaving the army (I think I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure what happened ) - it seems they made the right call in the end.

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I wondered whether anyone here sees a connection between their leaving the army and the (eventual) change in their titles? According to their parents they knew they were not going to be princes forever, right? So why commit to this?

 

[Somebody]

First of all, thank you to the posters who took the time to answer my newbie questions.?

It seems that the central issue is not if Joachim's children should have a prince/princess title but the fact that it was given and taken away.

There just does not seem to be any defensible reason why this happened in the first place - if the CP never had kids, they could have a had a promotion instead of this mess.

As for the negative reactions to the two eldest leaving the army (I think I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure what happened ) - it seems they made the right call in the end.

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I wondered whether anyone here sees a connection between their leaving the army and the (eventual) change in their titles? According to their parents they knew they were not going to be princes forever, right? So why commit to this?

My take on the first part of your comment: at the time of Nikolai's birth they just followed the Danish tradition of making the children of a younger son who were in the line of succession highnesses (not royal highnesses) and princes of Denmark. Over the last 25 years a lot has changed - including the thinking on titles and succession (for example equal primogeniture was introduced). Many fellow monarchies have restricted the use of princely titles (partly due to princes and princesses showing questionable behavior and using their title for personal gain) since and the queen of Denmark is following suit. I assume your solution of 'upgrading' instead of 'downgrading' will be used in future generations if needed.

 

[Kataryn]

The then Princess Margrethe married Count Henri de Laborde de Monpezat. That his title of nobility was only by courtesy was irrelevant to King Frederik IX. Anne, Viscountess Anson, whom he also approved as a dynastic spouse, was a legal commoner as well.

Legally, all princesses of the Blood Royal in the Uk are commoners (Princesses Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Lady Louise, Princess Charlotte) because the UK considers only two classes of people - Peers or Commoners. Plus the souvereign. So while some people belong to the nobility, are even Royal, this is their social class, yes, but overall they are commonoers, as they are only related to a peer, but don't have a peerage themselves. It's a different system than the system of nobility in Denmark, I think. The former Viscountess Anson was a commoner, but from a noble family, as she was one of the Bowes-Lyon. As her cousin was good enough to be a queen in the UK (Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the queen mother) she had to be good enough to be a princess in Denmark.

I'm not sure either why the clip is only gaining traction now, but in regards to here (this forum), Prince Nikolai's (and later Prince Felix's) use of the royal title for the advertisement and various other commercial promotions has been critically remarked on since at least 2018:

2018: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...s-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-5.html
2019: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-11.html
2021 (the "HRH" Raffles commercial): https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-27.html
2022: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-29.html

Interesting links, but it has opened up the question in my mind what would have happened if the princes were not beautiful enough to work as models but musically so talented that they were world-class musicians using their title when performing? Would that have changed the view on their using their talent to make money? A lot of top-musician are sponsored nowadays, so this wouldn't be a career without representing sponsored content. What do you think?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I get your point, SirGyamfi1! However you need to see this in the
context of DRF traditions: Again, Danish princes have been expected
to join the Defence forces at some point, regardless of
their place in the line of succession! It was just done, underlining
the ties between the Armes Forces and the Royal House. It was done,
as an expression of willingness to defend your country and
as a sign of loyalty to and respect for those serving in the
forces.
Danish princes have always been serving a time in the Armed Forces. Period!

Even princes Ingolf and Christian, who were sidetracked at the 1953
change of the Succession Law, did their military service, and Christian
eventually made a career of it.
Apparently, this tradition has not been revised by the DRF, Well
at least it hasn’t up till now!
The times are changing, traditions change, little by little in the various royal
families, realising that these days they need to ‘earn and preserve’
the respect of the people, contrary to say 50 years ago, when they
were respected by default because of the institution they represented.

Back to your question: Should two sons of the spare do their military
service, just because it’s a tradition in the family? No, if you ask me!
No, because the times have changed and the perception of royalty
has changed! My speculation is that someone insisted, because
it’s “ what we’ve always done”, and that neither of the boys were
keen to join! And that’s fair enough!
But somehow they were persuaded to give it a try, and it was
announced to all and sundry that they would join the army. It
goes without saying that the Danes expected that they would
see their time in the military through!

The last bit is nothing but my speculating, but it doesn’t rule out
that there could be a flicker of truth in it!

Thank you for your comment, I appreciate this response.

 

[Viv]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I wondered whether anyone here sees a connection between their leaving the army and the (eventual) change in their titles? According to their parents they knew they were not going to be princes forever, right? So why commit to this?

See my previous post ( currently #1080), it boils down to
tradition in the DRF and I presume that it was what their
father expected of them.
I can’t possibly say whether there is a connection between quitting
their military service and losing their titles. However I won’t entirely
rule out that HM and the Royal Court were a bit miffed about it!

The titel business allegedly came on the agenda in May 2022, and
the boys joined the military before that, at a time they had no
inkling that their titles would be changed!

At the end of the day we don’t
know whether HM was just inspired by the Swedish RF changes
or if something else triggered her decision to change their titles.
However judging by the reaction of Prince Joachim, something
- whatever it was - made HM fast forward the plan she had
presented in May.

 

[Mirabel]

See my previous post ( currently #1080), it boils down to
tradition in the DRF and I presume that it was what their
father expected of them.
I can’t possibly say whether there is a connection between quitting
their military service and losing their titles. However I won’t entirely
rule out that HM and the Royal Court were a bit miffed about it!

That wouldn't surprise me one bit; also that the public felt somewhat contemptuous about them quitting.

I remember the backlash when Prince Edward dropped out of marines training after two weeks; the press was ruthless and the public scornful.

 

[Denville]

True but that was over 30 years ago. Surely in today's world, its not thought necessary for 2 young men who are nowhere near the throne to do military training that will never be used?

 

[Mbruno]

.

- Previously the system with titles was rigid. Every single person titled "prins til Danmark" or "prinsesse til Danmark" was in the line of succession. And then on the other hand, no one else ever was, at least not without conditions (I avoid the question of Benedikte's children for the time being). By not giving official approval to a royal marriage was the only instrument used by the Sovereign to make the Royal House smaller, and so, marriage to a commoner was only allowed if the commoner was not Danish. I believe that The Queen herself understood that this logic simply didn't work anymore. It would be indefensible to withhold approval from marriages of Joachim's children to Danish commoners. Nobody would understand a decision like that anymore. .

This reference seems to confirm the opinion that, since consent to marriages of people in the line of succession is given by the Queen in the Council of State, it is considered an act of government and, therefore, requires ministerial countersignature under Section 14 of the Danish constitution.

I can't see the Danish government taking responsibility for withholding consent to royal marriages on the grounds that the bride is a commoner, or, even worse, is a Danish citizen. That would be politically unacceptable in this day and age. The only way unconsented royal marriages can be used to limit the size of the Royal House nowadays then is if princes in collateral line voluntarily agree not to ask for consent when they get married. Maybe that is the deal the Royal House had in place with Nikolai and Felix. But that would mean that Nikolai and Felix would not only lose their titles, but also their place in the line of succession.

By separating titles from succession rights, Queen Margrethe II is actually offering a more favorable deal in my opinion to her grandchildren.

True but that was over 30 years ago. Surely in today's world, its not thought necessary for 2 young men who are nowhere near the throne to do military training that will never be used?

I think that goes back to a point Somebody made before. In the past, the "career" options for cadet princes in royal families were often in the military or, in imperial monarchies. as governors or administrators of some dependent territory. For princesses, on the other hand, their career option was getting married (often to a foreign prince, sometimes an heir). Royals didn't really have careers in the private sector where their royal connections or titles could be exploited for profit or commercial gain. The fact that junior royals now have such careers has increased the likelihood of conflicts of interest that are politically delicate for the Royal House and may be behind the push to limit princely titles to working royals only.

 

[Durham]

I don't usually post here & I can't pretend to know a lot about the Danish Monarchy but I was surprised that her younger son went public with his objection.

Titles & styles are entirely in the gift of (any) monarch & I would have thought that the family of a king/queen would accept that unquestioningly & without complaint. At least in public.

Seems like very bad form to me. To my mind the only person who should matter in the Danish Monarchy is The Queen. It is for her to command & others to obey.

jmo

 

[Denville]

This reference seems to confirm the opinion that, s

I think that goes back to a point Somebody made before. In the past, the "career" options for cadet princes in royal families were often in the military or, in imperial monarchies. as governors or administrators of some dependent territory. For princesses, on the other hand, their career option was getting married (often to a foreign prince, sometimes an heir). Royals didn't really have careers in the private sector where their royal connections or titles could be exploited for profit or commercial gain. The fact that junior royals now have such careers has increased the likelihood of conflicts of interest that are politically delicate for the Royal House and may be behind the push to limit princely titles to working royals only.

but that's nto the issue i was bringing up. It was the idea that the 2 boys were likely to be raked over for dropping out of mil training.

 

[Denville]

I don't usually post here & I can't pretend to know a lot about the Danish Monarchy but I was surprised that her younger son went public with his objection.

Titles & styles are entirely in the gift of (any) monarch & I would have thought that the family of a king/queen would accept that unquestioningly & without complaint. At least in public.

Seems like very bad form to me. To my mind the only person who should matter in the Danish Monarchy is The Queen. It is for her to command & others to obey.

jmo

Its not exactly the Middle Ages.

 

[Durham]

Well no indeed it isn’t but in a monarchy it’s the monarch who makes the rules. And it seems entirely sensible to limit royal styles/titles to the children of a monarch & those in direct line of succession. So bravo to Queen Margrethe!

And it’s also not unreasonable to expect members of a monarch’s family to have a bit of respect for the ways of the institution that they were born into & have benefited from.

No one’s actually going to suffer from no longer being called a prince.

 

[Denville]

It seems as if Marg did it in a clumsy way which has aroused bad feeling among her family.

 

[Durham]

It seems as if Marg did it in a clumsy way which has aroused bad feeling among her family.

I agree that it appears to have been done in a clumsy way. That said I don't believe that excuses how her second son reacted in public.

 

[rominet09]

Obviously, the Queen decision seems to be brutal BUT never forget we NEVER know what is happening in families !

 

[Toledo]

The royal news in Spain on QMII

In your browser select the pop up translate to your preferred language

Source El Pais (not the exact title)

Joachim tries to reconciliate on a surprise visit to QMII

 

[Emmily]

Obviously, the Queen decision seems to be brutal BUT never forget we NEVER know what is happening in families !

Very true. Did I understand correctly that taking the titles away had previously been discussed?

 

[Muhler]

BB has an article which might be a hint to what Joachim and QMII are negotiating about:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...s-beslutning-faar-stoerre-konsekvenser-athena

All Joachim's sons get the title of Count of Monpezat.
But Athena is only Komtesse = the unmarried daughter of a count. And upon marriage she will lose that title.
- No problem beforehand because a Komtesse married into her husband's family and got his title - or she ended up in a convent or as a "shadow-aunt" at a family estate. (An unmarried spinster who roamed in the background of the main family living at the estate. Being pretty much an nonpaying lodger, such a shadow-aunt had little status and lived on the mercy (financially) of the main family and she was supposed to remain in the background being a companion for the lady as well as an unofficial governess for the children and often also the day to day housekeeper.)

It is within the power of QMII to bestow a personal title on Athena, that cannot be inherited by her children though.

I wonder if that will be a palatable compromise?

- Because Joachim's children will lose their royal titles. The door is closed and there is no public will to pressure QMII to change that.
Nor is there any strong argument to change when the children will lose their royal titles.
So there is very little to bargain on.
An additional title perhaps - but IMO most unlikely.
They may also get the Order of the Elephant, elevating them into the highest rank in society (class 1), including getting an automatic invitation to the New Year Courts and other major DRF events.

 

[Izzie]

BB has an article which might be a hint to what Joachim and QMII are negotiating about:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...s-beslutning-faar-stoerre-konsekvenser-athena

All Joachim's sons get the title of Count of Monpezat.
But Athena is only Komtesse = the unmarried daughter of a count. And upon marriage she will lose that title.
- No problem beforehand because a Komtesse married into her husband's family and got his title - or she ended up in a convent or as a "shadow-aunt" at a family estate. (An unmarried spinster who roamed in the background of the main family living at the estate. Being pretty much an nonpaying lodger, such a shadow-aunt had little status and lived on the mercy (financially) of the main family and she was supposed to remain in the background being a companion for the lady as well as an unofficial governess for the children and often also the day to day housekeeper.)

It is within the power of QMII to bestow a personal title on Athena, that cannot be inherited by her children though.

I wonder if that will be a palatable compromise?

- Because Joachim's children will lose their royal titles. The door is closed and there is no public will to pressure QMII to change that.
Nor is there any strong argument to change when the children will lose their royal titles.
So there is very little to bargain on.
An additional title perhaps - but IMO most unlikely.
They may also get the Order of the Elephant, elevating them into the highest rank in society (class 1), including getting an automatic invitation to the New Year Courts and other major DRF events.

Coming out of lurking to ask one question: Is it possible that when Frederik become King that he could change things so that women can pass their titles on? Would this grandfather Athena in plus make it possible for Isabella and Josephine to pass on any title should their titles change down the line? Hope that makes sense.
Thanks.

 

[Prinsara]

I imagine Joachim would be okay with all his children being treated equally plus Elephant.

However, I'm not him.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Coming out of lurking to ask one question: Is it possible that when Frederik become King that he could change things so that women can pass their titles on? Would this grandfather Athena in plus make it possible for Isabella and Josephine to pass on any title should their titles change down the line? Hope that makes sense.
Thanks.

I don't see how Isabella and Josephine's titles would ever change. Denmark doesn't have a peerage system, at least not that I'm aware of, so Frederik couldn't create one of his daughters as the Duchess of Whatever. The titles they currently have are all the titles they'd ever have unless they married into foreign royalty.

If QMII means to slim down the monarchy so that only the direct line of succession has the HRH Prince/Princess status, I doubt Frederik would reverse that by allowing his daughters and younger son to pass on their HRH Prince/Princess status to their children after they married. They'd keep their status, but their children would be Mr./Miss just like any other untitled person in the country.

 

[Prinsara]

Coming out of lurking to ask one question: Is it possible that when Frederik become King that he could change things so that women can pass their titles on? Would this grandfather Athena in plus make it possible for Isabella and Josephine to pass on any title should their titles change down the line? Hope that makes sense.
Thanks.

No, there's basically nothing that can be done about titles once they're already granted. You have to grant new ones stipulating that they're hereditary and not for life, for example.

Also if Denmark is anything like the UK changing the rules for peerage titles would involve Parliament. It's not just something solely within the monarch's control.

 

[Muhler]

Coming out of lurking to ask one question: Is it possible that when Frederik become King that he could change things so that women can pass their titles on? Would this grandfather Athena in plus make it possible for Isabella and Josephine to pass on any title should their titles change down the line? Hope that makes sense.
Thanks.

No, I don't see that.

Unless you are the Heir to the throne, titles are inherited through the male line - or bestowed personally by the monarch.

After all the whole system of titles is based on unegality.

And I can't see any future public, let alone political interest in changing that through an act of Parliament.
Especially since having a title offers no privileges at all. Except if you are a DRF member - then you enjoy immunity from prosecution and is usually but not invariably issued a diplomatic passport.

I can see a future debate arise if Isabella and Josephine were stripped of their royal titles and made Komtesser (plural) while their bother is made count - a title he can pass on.
Many (including myself) would see that as in principle unfair, but it would not make a difference for Athena, I'm sure.
Anyway, as the system seems to go: The children of a monarch will keep their royal titles, unless they marry out of the DRF or give up the title voluntarily.
So the problem will only arise when M&F's children have children - and really only when Christian has at least one child.

 

[iceflower]

During an engagement at a school in Copenhagen today, October 27, Crown Prince Frederik was asked to comment on the title decision, he replied:

"It is sad to see how affected he (Prince Joachim) has been by the decision. Of course it makes an impression on the other brother. His only (brother). And my only one (..) But then Her Majesty, my mother, has made a decision which is hers alone. And I understand that. And of course I myself am interested in the Danish monarchy being renewed or at least staying lean over time"


** BB: Kronprins Frederik bryder tavsheden efter Margrethes beslutning: Det er trist **

 

[Mbruno]

During an engagement at a school in Copenhagen today, October 27, Crown Prince Frederik was asked to comment on the title decision, he replied:

"It is sad to see how affected he (Prince Joachim) has been by the decision. Of course it makes an impression on the other brother. His only (brother). And my only one (..) But then Her Majesty, my mother, has made a decision which is hers alone. And I understand that. And of course I myself am interested in the Danish monarchy being renewed or at least staying lean over time"


** BB: Kronprins Frederik bryder tavsheden efter Margrethes beslutning: Det er trist **

It sounds like an odd answer. He says that the decision was the Queen's alone, as if he wanted to distance himself from any responsibility, but then he implictly supported it by saying he has an interest in renewing the monarchy and keeping it lean over time. The reasons behind the apparent fallout between the brothers seem to be getting clearer now.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Crown Prince and family must be tired of this title saga going on and on!

 

[Toledo]

Be prepared for this to get heated for a few more weeks in January, when the rule goes into effect and Joachin's children have to change their profiles, name usage for work, etc. all at the same time.