New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
So first the kids are stripped of the titles, and now around here Joachim is losing his money...?

Like Harry, he probably has some source of private income or inheritance, anyway (or else it's Marie's well-off family). Even assuming rent-free, half a million is not enough for a family of four and a posh lifestyle in Paris.
 
so are they trying to get rid of Joachim's apanage, it seems unfair to take it away form him in middle age. If they do surely the RF should give him some private support?

No, I don't think they're trying to take it away from him now. I think what is being said is that in the future, someone in Joachim's position will not get an apanage. In other words, Christian's siblings.
 
That's right.

No one is taking apanage from Joachim. He is keeping his apanage, just like count Ingolf.
In the future, meaning when Frederik becomes king, apanage won't be given to all 4 of his children when they grow up, only to Christian.

The one who will stop receiving money is Alexandra.
Ever since her divorce, she's been receiving the alimony, but it is payed by the Danish taxpayers, and not by her ex husband Joachim as one would expect.
The public became quite negative about it so few years ago Alexandra said that she won't receive the money ones her two boys grow up (finish education and get jobs).
 
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The one who will stop receiving money is Alexandra.
Ever since her divorce, she's been receiving the alimony, but it is payed by the Danish taxpayers, and not by her ex husband Joachim as one would expect.
The public became quite negative about it so few years ago Alexandra said that she won't receive the money ones her two boys grow up (finish education and get jobs).

Alexandra stoped receiving the alimony when Felix turned 18, the allowance that she received was later revealed to be based on the request of QMII her self.
 
According to BT, Prince Joachim was in Denmark this week to speak with Queen Margrethe II and returned to Paris on Thursday night.

This information was confirmed by the royal house to BT:
"Yes, it is true that the Queen and Prince Joachim spoke together at Fredensborg. Everyone agrees to look forward to it and, as the Queen herself expressed, she and Prince Joachim want calm to find their way out of this situation," said Lene Balleby, head of communications for the Royal House.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/bt-afslorer-prins-joachim-har-vaeret-i-danmark-for-at-tale-med-dronningen
 
Regarding all the comments which have called this a retroactive change: A change which takes effect on a future date (January 1, 2023) is not retroactive, even if it is applied to living persons.

By definition, a retroactive change is applied to the past. A hypothetical decision that Prince Joachim's children's princely titles had never truly existed would be retroactive. A decision that Prince Joachim's children will discontinue their princely titles is not retroactive.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/retroactive


I don’t like the condescending tone directed at prince Jochaim, Marie, Alexandra and their children for thinking that titles do matter and that it’s a part of their identity.

Like many did say it was important enough for princess Elizabeth to decide against marriage of her 20 years partner.

Princess Elizabeth was never labeled as self entitled, spoiled or shallow for wanting to keep her identity as a princess even though she would have still kept her own fortune and get to be styled as a countess like her siblings.

It doesn't change the point you were making, but unlike male ex-princes, Princess Elisabeth would have been styled as plain Mrs. Hermansen if she had married her partner Claus Hermansen (just as Princess Dagmar was styled as Mrs. Dagmar Castenskiold after contracting an unequal marriage to Danish nobleman Jørgen Castenskiold).

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...pril-2004-june-2018-a-2075-4.html#post1777071


1. The older two grandchildren were given the title of prince in order to be "on reserve" in case the CP didn't have kids? Why not make them Counts and elevate them later on if needed? Isn't that what the Japanese Royals are doing (or have done, I am not up on this House either)?

A warm welcome to you and all the other new posters.

Japanese royals historically have streamlined when necessary by demoting members of the royal/imperial family to nonroyal noble or commoner status. On occasion a person who had exited it the royal family was permitted to return, but descendants not born royal have never been elevated to royal status (other than by marrying back into the royal family).



Regarding taxpayer funding, it seems appropriate to repost what the original announcement stated about the future apanage and its relationship to the decision to downscale the number of princes(ses):

In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult.

As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided that, as of 1 January 2023, His Royal Highness Prince Joachim’s descendants can only use their titles as counts and countess of Monpezat [...]

With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/en/news/changes-in-titles-and-forms-of-address-in-the-royal-family
 
According to BT, Prince Joachim was in Denmark this week to speak with Queen Margrethe II and returned to Paris on Thursday night.

This information was confirmed by the royal house to BT:
"Yes, it is true that the Queen and Prince Joachim spoke together at Fredensborg. Everyone agrees to look forward to it and, as the Queen herself expressed, she and Prince Joachim want calm to find their way out of this situation," said Lene Balleby, head of communications for the Royal House.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/bt-afslorer-prins-joachim-har-vaeret-i-danmark-for-at-tale-med-dronningen




Goot to hear but but it should have taken place before announcments were made.
 
This! It seems pretty clear that titles are everything to royalty. …..

2. Someone posted earlier that Prince Joachim's kids are not financially dependent on the Queen. So how does stripping them help? Is it just the literal number of people in Denmark with the title of Prince/Princess?
!

Javaward, I think that you are spot on: titles mean everything to royalty, and you could add that we untitled ‘ mortals’ are unable to fully comprehend how much it means to them!

As for your second point: With four children, the crown princely couple
have provided sufficient royals for the future ( and I’m not getting
into how that will unfold ). The kids of Joachim are nowhere near getting
to cut ribbons and the like, and they will have to make their own living!
In this scenario some professions would be more acceptable than others
( and I’m not sure that modelling for luxury brands is one if them!).
By removing their titles they would be less restricted in their choice
of profession.
( another thing: the two elder princes took a lot of flak for quitting their
military service after a few weeks! And rightly so! They were perceived
as spoiled brats by many Danes, and it reflects badly on the Royal House and family.)
 
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Javaward, I think that you are spot on: titles mean everything to royalty, and you could add that we untitled ‘ mortals’ are unable to fully comprehend how much it means to them!

As for your second point: With four children, the crown princely couple
have provided sufficient royals for the future ( and I’m not getting
into how that will unfold ). The kids of Joachim are nowhere near getting
to cut ribbons and the like, and they will have to make their own living!
In this scenario some professions would be more acceptable than others
( and I’m not sure that modelling for luxury brands is one if them!).
By removing their titles they would be less restricted in their choice
of profession.
( another thing: the two elder princes took a lot of flak for quitting their
military service after a few weeks! And rightly so! They were perceived
as spoiled brats by many Danes, and it reflects badly on the Royal House and family.)

There is absolutely no reason for them to have a Prince etc title. It doesn’t look good on the family having them modelling etc and it isn’t a good PR look anyway and for them they don’t can be far freer not having them and have so many options in life.
 
I'll add in QMII's decision is also being represented in the media from a point of view I see a bit chauvinistic, if compared to her cousin Charles III pondering on the same situation to shrink the HRH down to working royals. I'm getting the feeling she is being passed judgement upon more for being a woman taking strong decisions on family matters than as a head of state making decisions on who is expected to represent Denmark and the Crown as HRH.

[...]

Her decision was as a leader, to thin down the HRH titles and responsibilities. But I get the feeling she is being judged for her gender more than for her determination. We have to wait and see if the headlines and well worded articles emphasizing on emotions will also be similar by the time King Charles III and other male heads of state address the same situation in their families too. :ermm:

And as I've said before, I don't think gender is responsible for this, as much as a small bit of thoughtfulness and decency, combined with a proper court machinery plan. If Carl Gustav had done the same thing, people would have been equally appalled.


I think King Carl XVI Gustaf or King Charles III would have been on the end of negative judgments if they had made the same moves, but certain language directed at the Queen, such as "ice queen" (used in the press), "b***h" (used earlier in this thread) and "cow" (which I have seen used on multiple forums), has a blatantly gendered element which is absent from the criticism of Carl XVI Gustaf's or Charles III's own failures in their family lives.

ETA: There is also a perceptible difference between the appalled reactions to this removal of titles and the widespread indifference or even enthusiasm for the idea of Princess Madeleine of Sweden or Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of the UK losing their titles, even though these women have had their titles for longer than Prince Nikolai, which gives the impression that many see it as more appalling for princes to be stripped of their titles than princesses.


The Raffles commercial that seems to cause so much uproar now was covered here when it came out. It basically caused no interest and certainly not of "this should cause you to lose a title" kind, other than watching his title be corrected for broadcast and noting Nik deferred to Queen Margrethe when asked to do something that could have caused the DRF embarrassment.

I'm not sure either why the clip is only gaining traction now, but in regards to here (this forum), Prince Nikolai's (and later Prince Felix's) use of the royal title for the advertisement and various other commercial promotions has been critically remarked on since at least 2018:

2018: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...s-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-5.html
2019: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-11.html
2021 (the "HRH" Raffles commercial): https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-27.html
2022: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-athena-news-part-2-july-2018-a-45226-29.html
 
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If this sets a precedent, all it means is that Isabella, Vincent and Josephine's children won't be princes and princesses. Which, barring changes, wouldn't have been the case for the girls either way.

It is unclear, but I think that barring the recent changes, the expectation would have been that if Isabella and Josephine married with the consent of the Queen/King, keeping their children in the line of succession to the throne, their children would have been Princesses and Princes to Denmark until marriage. (Whether the crown would have granted consent to the daughters marrying commoners is another question, given the treatment of Princess Elisabeth and her partner.)

We know that if Princess Benedikte and her husband had taken up residence in Denmark, her husband would have been Prince of Denmark and her children would have been in line to the throne. That suggests to me that in that scenario, her children would have been Prince and Princess to Denmark as well.


https://web.archive.org/web/2017042...rdhost.com:80/scandinavia/msg/1489509361.html


Prince Richard is not a person who keeps his thoughts to himself – as these quotes from old interviews show. They are of course taken out of context, but at least they prove that it’s never boring to read an interview with him. He often speaks tongue-in-cheek and likes to tease his wife, so don’t take it all too seriously.

About his princely status:
"To be honest, I am not interested in titles at all – unlike certain others in the family."

[...]

About his rejection of a Danish princely title:
"I never regretted, and I never took the proposal seriously. Neither did I take it seriously when it was suggested from Danish quarters that I should give up Berleburg and settle in Denmark. I spat out a ‘No’ as fast as I could."


https://hoelseth.com/royalty/denmark/dk-suc-law.html

The only time that consent to the marriage of a dynast has been given only under certain specific conditions was June 3rd 1967, when HM King Frederik IX gave consent "in the Council of State" to the marriage of his daughter, HRH Princess Benedikte to HSH Prince Richard zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. The consent was given subject to a number of conditions agreed to in writing by Princess Benedikte:

[...]

That any child born in the marriage, and any descendant of such, in order to maintain succession rights to the throne:
take up permanent residence in Denmark
at the time where he (or she) should become the closest heir to the throne,
and no later than when he (or she) reaches the age of mandatory schooling according to the Danish educational laws​
 
Why do people keep on the bringing up the marriages to commoners issue? The Queen herself married a commoner and as did her two sons so how the hypothetical marriage of the female grandchildren of the current Queen would be affected by status is strange to me. Plus you cannot compare the issue of status with Princess Elisabeth because of the context of the timing. Really, the status issue won’t affect anyone whether they are going to marry a foreigner or a Dane. People should also stop thinking that Nikolai would have lost his status because he may or may not marry his Danish girlfriend.
 
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The kids of Joachim are nowhere near getting
to cut ribbons and the like, and they will have to make their own living!

In this scenario some professions would be more acceptable than others
( and I’m not sure that modelling for luxury brands is one if them!). By removing their titles they would be less restricted in their choice
of profession.


What I find so amusing is that finding suitable jobs with enough pay to go on as they were raised is not going to be easy. That's why most "anonymous" families owning millions raising their kids to study something suitable so they can work in the family's estate. Eg becoming manager of a hotel the family owns. I can't see the DRF buy a hotel (or something else) to give Joachim's kids a secure place to work. (Makes me wonder what really happened to the Shakenborg estate!) Or working in the marketing department. Can't see the DRF employing Athena as their PR wizzard sometime in the future. Or just possessing some houses in a holiday place to rent it out to tourists (see where F&M left that!)



Reducing the titles to Count/ess of Monpezat is a bit like leaving them at sea. They are still part of the nobility raised in the RF (so no modelling it seems) They only have a title, no money or estate to go with it, but not high enough a title any longer to attract a bride like their cousin Crown Prince Pavlos did with the billionaire-heiress Miss Miller. Quite the miffle they are in now, just when I thought Nicolai and Felix at least could use their European/Asian-mix in the way they look to make money as models with a title. Maybe it will still work out for them. Considering the Raffles-ad, it still works for some Habsburg-"Archduchesses".



Another thing: the two elder princes took a lot of flak for quitting their
military service after a few weeks! And rightly so! They were perceived
as spoiled brats by many Danes, and it reflects badly on the Royal House and family.)


The Danes can't have a democracy with human rights but no duty to join the army and then not accept that two young men after trying out army life deciding it's not for them. This bad reflexion on the Royal House shold be nothing a serious or even tabloid paper should be opinionated about and what the people think the people may discuss, but without negtive publicity for the prince's decision. Do you want to serve with the Danish troops in a war zone? No? Then let them live their life without war as well!


My point is that as it is, the Danish Royal family has no longer a great financial support from the Danish taxpayer but for those the taxpayer "employs" in some way. They don't have that much private money, so they can't supply their offspring with a good income. Maybe some hundreds of thousend EUR as an inheritance (like in a house in Copenhagen), but even that is hard when you are the second son and have 4 children.

And still a lot of politicians and journalists obviously niggle about them being much more privileged than others. So it seems a well-thought through plan to get rid of the connotations of being part of the DRF and let them fight for themselves, but with a good starting point. The queen should have only told them about these thoughts. Even if she started to fear for the future of the monarchy and hopes that by excluding them that way they might be allowed to stay on in Denmark when the Royal rest is pushed out of the country after a referendum for a president. (Even if I don't think so! But she saw what had happened to her sister...)
 
Javaward, I think that you are spot on: titles mean everything to royalty, and you could add that we untitled ‘ mortals’ are unable to fully comprehend how much it means to them!

As for your second point: With four children, the crown princely couple
have provided sufficient royals for the future ( and I’m not getting
into how that will unfold ). The kids of Joachim are nowhere near getting
to cut ribbons and the like, and they will have to make their own living!
In this scenario some professions would be more acceptable than others
( and I’m not sure that modelling for luxury brands is one if them!).
By removing their titles they would be less restricted in their choice
of profession.
( another thing: the two elder princes took a lot of flak for quitting their
military service after a few weeks! And rightly so! They were perceived
as spoiled brats by many Danes, and it reflects badly on the Royal House and family.)
I understand the streamlining and need for fair criticism, but I don’t see why Nikolai and Felix quitting the military be an issue? For one thing, they will never be on the throne and their lives aren’t taxpayer funded. I think the titles should have transitioned to Counts when they turned 18 instead of now waiting to do it.

What I find so amusing is that finding suitable jobs with enough pay to go on as they were raised is not going to be easy. That's why most "anonymous" families owning millions raising their kids to study something suitable so they can work in the family's estate. Eg becoming manager of a hotel the family owns. I can't see the DRF buy a hotel (or something else) to give Joachim's kids a secure place to work. (Makes me wonder what really happened to the Shakenborg estate!) Or working in the marketing department. Can't see the DRF employing Athena as their PR wizzard sometime in the future. Or just possessing some houses in a holiday place to rent it out to tourists (see where F&M left that!)



Reducing the titles to Count/ess of Monpezat is a bit like leaving them at sea. They are still part of the nobility raised in the RF (so no modelling it seems) They only have a title, no money or estate to go with it, but not high enough a title any longer to attract a bride like their cousin Crown Prince Pavlos did with the billionaire-heiress Miss Miller. Quite the miffle they are in now, just when I thought Nicolai and Felix at least could use their European/Asian-mix in the way they look to make money as models with a title. Maybe it will still work out for them. Considering the Raffles-ad, it still works for some Habsburg-"Archduchesses".






The Danes can't have a democracy with human rights but no duty to join the army and then not accept that two young men after trying out army life deciding it's not for them. This bad reflexion on the Royal House shold be nothing a serious or even tabloid paper should be opinionated about and what the people think the people may discuss, but without negtive publicity for the prince's decision. Do you want to serve with the Danish troops in a war zone? No? Then let them live their life without war as well!


My point is that as it is, the Danish Royal family has no longer a great financial support from the Danish taxpayer but for those the taxpayer "employs" in some way. They don't have that much private money, so they can't supply their offspring with a good income. Maybe some hundreds of thousend EUR as an inheritance (like in a house in Copenhagen), but even that is hard when you are the second son and have 4 children.

And still a lot of politicians and journalists obviously niggle about them being much more privileged than others. So it seems a well-thought through plan to get rid of the connotations of being part of the DRF and let them fight for themselves, but with a good starting point. The queen should have only told them about these thoughts. Even if she started to fear for the future of the monarchy and hopes that by excluding them that way they might be allowed to stay on in Denmark when the Royal rest is pushed out of the country after a referendum for a president. (Even if I don't think so! But she saw what had happened to her sister...)
The estate that Joachim received didn’t work out well and he gave up on it. He has been struggling to get himself together for a long time.
 
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Why do people keep on the bringing up the marriages to commoners issue?

Because, prior to 1995, the class status of the spouse was the determinant of whether a marriage was treated as dynastic or non-dynastic. Again:

  • Christian X stripped Prince Aage, Prince Erik and Prince Viggo of their HRH predicates and "to Denmark" designations due to their marriages to foreign noble (Aage) or foreign commoner (Erik and Viggo) women. He fully stripped Princess Dagmar of her royal titles due to her marriage to a Danish nobleman.

  • Frederik IX liberalized enough to approve marriages to foreign noble(wo)men, but stripped Prince Oluf, Prince Flemming, Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian of all their royal titles upon their marriages to Danish commoner women.

  • Margrethe II liberalized even further and approved the marriages of her two sons to foreign commoner women, but made it clear to Princess Elisabeth, who was in a twenty-year partnership with a Danish commoner until his death in 1997, that if Elisabeth married her partner she would be stripped of all her royal titles.


The Queen herself married a commoner

The then Princess Margrethe married Count Henri de Laborde de Monpezat. That his title of nobility was only by courtesy was irrelevant to King Frederik IX. Anne, Viscountess Anson, whom he also approved as a dynastic spouse, was a legal commoner as well.


and as did her two sons so how the hypothetical marriage of the female grandchildren of the current Queen would be affected is strange to me. Plus you cannot compare the issue of status with Princess Elisabeth because of the context of the timing.

It may or may not be strange, but the the Queen apparently never granted Princess Elisabeth permission to marry her Danish commoner partner, who passed away still unmarried in 1997. That was two years after the Queen's younger son married a (foreign) commoner in 1995, so it was not purely an issue of timing.


People should also stop thinking that Nikolai would have lost his status because he may or may not marry his Danish girlfriend.

Again, it is not only "people" who think so, but Nikolai's own mother.

In a telephone conversation with CNN, Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen, press secretary to Countess Alexandra, said the countess was “very sad and in shock.

“She can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europe/denmark-queen-grandchildren-scli-intl/index.html
 
Good to hear but it should have taken place before announcements were made.

7:47 browsing updates while I sip on my morning coffee. As I read your reply my thought is on a now law term in the USA called the Streisand Effect.

In this situation I relate it to Alexandra, Joachim and Co bringing up a situation they knew would happen in advance (Joachim knew, right?) that should be kept private or discussed in-house with QMII. But, when they aired complaints to the Danish media, the whole thing got even more coverage and attention worldwide.

And my suspicion on why is getting so much attention here is because the ever present 'yellow press' needs a scandal on King Charles III and the extended family. In the USA the yellow journalism news has grabbed QMII's actions and run with it to an unrelated KCIII's speculation on titles that hasn't even happened yet.

Alexandra, Joachim and Co, congratulations on being this year's recipients on the Streisand Effect Award :ermm:
 
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I understand the streamlining and need for fair criticism, but I don’t see why Nikolai and Felix quitting the military be an issue? .

It’s an issue, because as princes to Denmark, they’re
expected to get military training regardless of their place in the
Line of succession! It’s been like that for generations and
off hand, i don’t remember whether there have been exceptions.
Nikolai and Felix’ father and their uncle, especially the latter,
were good role models in this respect. It’s an issue, because
our royals are expected to see through what they commence
and not to whine when things get uncomfortable!

Perhaps they - the boys- weren’t too thrilled about joining the army,
and perhaps their father pushed too hard, I have absolutely no
idea. However any reluctance on their part could and should have
been nipped in the bud, and Prince Joachim could have resigned
himself to the fact they weren’t going to join. And then perhaps
no one would have noticed, exactly because of their place
in the line of succession!
So I beg to differ! But then again, I’m only a Dane, living in
Denmark, knowing a little bit about the Danish mindset,?
 
but they are the sons of a younger son. I can undersand the heir's children having to do a stint in the military but is it necessary in 2020 for a younger son's children?
 
but they are the sons of a younger son. I can undersand the heir's children having to do a stint in the military but is it necessary in 2020 for a younger son's children?
You read my mind. I still don’t get why it was a big deal to some people.

It’s an issue, because as princes to Denmark, they’re
expected to get military training regardless of their place in the
Line of succession! It’s been like that for generations and
off hand, i don’t remember whether there have been exceptions.
Nikolai and Felix’ father and their uncle, especially the latter,
were good role models in this respect. It’s an issue, because
our royals are expected to see through what they commence
and not to whine when things get uncomfortable!

Perhaps they - the boys- weren’t too thrilled about joining the army,
and perhaps their father pushed too hard, I have absolutely no
idea. However any reluctance on their part could and should have
been nipped in the bud, and Prince Joachim could have resigned
himself to the fact they weren’t going to join. And then perhaps
no one would have noticed, exactly because of their place
in the line of succession!
So I beg to differ! But then again, I’m only a Dane, living in
Denmark, knowing a little bit about the Danish mindset,?
Well, I am asking because they are sons of a second son. So why should it really have been a big deal to anyone? Especially as they will never reign so whether it looks bad or not would be pointless.

Because, prior to 1995, the class status of the spouse was the determinant of whether a marriage was treated as dynastic or non-dynastic. Again:

  • Christian X stripped Prince Aage, Prince Erik and Prince Viggo of their HRH predicates and "to Denmark" designations due to their marriages to foreign noble (Aage) or foreign commoner (Erik and Viggo) women. He fully stripped Princess Dagmar of her royal titles due to her marriage to a Danish nobleman.

  • Frederik IX liberalized enough to approve marriages to foreign noble(wo)men, but stripped Prince Oluf, Prince Flemming, Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian of all their royal titles upon their marriages to Danish commoner women.

  • Margrethe II liberalized even further and approved the marriages of her two sons to foreign commoner women, but made it clear to Princess Elisabeth, who was in a twenty-year partnership with a Danish commoner until his death in 1997, that if Elisabeth married her partner she would be stripped of all her royal titles.




The then Princess Margrethe married Count Henri de Laborde de Monpezat. That his title of nobility was only by courtesy was irrelevant to King Frederik IX. Anne, Viscountess Anson, whom he also approved as a dynastic spouse, was a legal commoner as well.




It may or may not be strange, but the the Queen apparently never granted Princess Elisabeth permission to marry her Danish commoner partner, who passed away still unmarried in 1997. That was two years after the Queen's younger son married a (foreign) commoner in 1995, so it was not purely an issue of timing.




Again, it is not only "people" who think so, but Nikolai's own mother.

In a telephone conversation with CNN, Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen, press secretary to Countess Alexandra, said the countess was “very sad and in shock.

“She can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europe/denmark-queen-grandchildren-scli-intl/index.html
To your first comment, I am aware of the issue of marrying commoners prior to the current generation, but my point was that seeing as the Queen married a commoner herself, regardless of him being foreign or not, the fact is that she married a commoner. Nikolai’s hypothetical marriage should not matter because he is the son of a second son. Also, Henrik was no Count or at least not a confirmed member of the former French nobility.

You can’t really compare Henrik to Viscountess Anson because although her titles were courtesy and weren’t held in her own right, the difference is that her ties to nobility were confirmed and genuine and she had ties to the British Royal house via QEQM. Maybe status mattered a lot to Princess Elisabeth of Denmark, but I’m not so familiar with her.

The thing with Alexandra’s statement we don’t actually if Nikolai will marry his Danish girlfriend so I won’t say anything until it actually happens.
 
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but they are the sons of a younger son. I can undersand the heir's children having to do a stint in the military but is it necessary in 2020 for a younger son's children?

According to one of our Danish members, Viv, it is expected of Princes of Denmark. So, it's part of the expectations that comes with the title (as well as for example refraining from a commercial career) - and they are not willing to conform to those expectations. Their grandmother set them free from those expectations by removing their princely title next year.
 
According to one of our Danish members, Viv, it is expected of Princes of Denmark. So, it's part of the expectations that comes with the title (as well as for example refraining from a commercial career) - and they are not willing to conform to those expectations. Their grandmother set them free from those expectations by removing their princely title next year.

I'm not sure about "not willing". It was always made perfectly clear to Nikolai and Felix that they would not be working for the DRF, so while attempting to be as respectful to the institution as possible, they've been trying to make their own way — and their grandmother may have damaged Nikolai's career by "setting him free" in this manner.
 
If losing your princely title damages your career (because the whole saga afterwards is due to his parents making damaging statements to the media - not to the decision itself), this proofs that she made the right decision as his career shouldn't be built on his connection to the royal family.

And again, why are the brothers studying for a business degree if they don't intend on a commercial career - which is NOT compatible with the expectations of a Danish prince. So, would they rather take up a completely other career path to remain princes of Denmark? Wouldn't that be more damaging to their careers?
 
I'm pretty sure that having to change the name you work under is a result of the decision, not any comments that were made afterwards. And also that you can say "oh, well, if his career gets damaged because of rules that were in place before" — rules that he accepted, obeyed, and didn't make up in the first place — "too bad", that's a bit callous.

It's also interesting you keep insisting business is not an acceptable career for princes of Denmark when it's been a perfectly acceptable career for multiple Dutch princes (including sons of the monarch), however controversial some of them may be.

And again, if the Queen (or someone at the court, since we're not sure how much contact she has with her family) had an issue with either grandson modeling or studying business, why did she not make it known long before now? I continue to believe Nikolai and Felix are not responsible for this decision.
 
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I'm pretty sure that having to change the name you work under is a result of the decision, not any comments that were made afterwards. And also that you can say "oh, well, if his career gets damaged because of rules that were in place before" — rules that he accepted, obeyed, and didn't make up in the first place — "too bad", that's a bit callous.
I see. The name change is indeed something that is a bit harder - although I do think it's something he can overcome. And the unfair advantage he had due to his decision to use his royal title (while knowing that he would loose it one day - as his mother confirmed) probably still puts him in a better position compared to when he would have used his Monpezat title from the start.

It's also interesting you keep insisting business is not an acceptable career for princes of Denmark when it's been a perfectly acceptable career for multiple Dutch princes (including sons of the monarch), however controversial some of them may be.
Different countries have different rules and expectations. Another difference is that they do not use either the name 'prince' nor the name of the country in their business adventures as the sons of princess Margriet aren't 'princes of the Netherlands' but 'princes of Orange-Nassau' - and use 'first name 'van Oranje'' in their day-to-day life. Not 'HH Prince X of Orange-Nassau'.

And whether it is 'perfectly acceptable' is also up to interpretation. While they kept their titles (but don't use it in their careers - unlike prince Nikolai), a different decision was made for future generations.

And again, if the Queen (or someone at the court, since we're not sure how much contact she has with her family) had an issue with either grandson modeling or studying business, why did she not make it known long before now? I continue to believe Nikolai and Felix are not responsible for this decision.

I don't think anyone other than the 'queen' is responsible for this decision. She did so with the best intentions for primarily the Royal House of Denmark and secondary her grandchildren in mind.

And again, according to their mother, they've known that they would lose their titles at some point (the time of their marriage). The queen, however, decided that it was important to get it arranged in her reign, so the decision itself has mainly been 'sped up'. I don't think that is more damaging than losing it upon marriage.

In terms of family relationships, of course, it should have been handled differently by both the queen and Joachim and his wife and ex-wife. The grandchildren are 'caught in the middle' and that shouldn't have happened, had all of them behaved with a bit more foresight and tact.
 
I'm pretty sure that having to change the name you work under is a result of the decision, not any comments that were made afterwards. And also that you can say "oh, well, if his career gets damaged because of rules that were in place before" — rules that he accepted, obeyed, and didn't make up in the first place — "too bad", that's a bit callous.

It's also interesting you keep insisting business is not an acceptable career for princes of Denmark when it's been a perfectly acceptable career for multiple Dutch princes (including sons of the monarch), however controversial some of them may be.

And again, if the Queen (or someone at the court, since we're not sure how much contact she has with her family) had an issue with either grandson modeling or studying business, why did she not make it known long before now? I continue to believe Nikolai and Felix are not responsible for this decision.

Denmark isn't the Netherlands and vice versa. Different countries, different rules and expectations. In the Netherlands, princes can marry commoners from their own country and keep their titles. In Denmark, thus far, they can't. It remains to be seen if that changes when Frederik and Mary's children come of age, particularly Christian. Will he be allowed to marry a Danish commoner and retain his status as the future Christian XI or will he have to marry a foreigner, commoner or otherwise?
 
Well, I am asking because they are sons of a second son. So why should it really have been a big deal to anyone? Especially as they will never reign so whether it looks bad or not would be pointless.

I get your point, SirGyamfi1! However you need to see this in the
context of DRF traditions: Again, Danish princes have been expected
to join the Defence forces at some point, regardless of
their place in the line of succession! It was just done, underlining
the ties between the Armes Forces and the Royal House. It was done,
as an expression of willingness to defend your country and
as a sign of loyalty to and respect for those serving in the
forces.
Danish princes have always been serving a time in the Armed Forces. Period!

Even princes Ingolf and Christian, who were sidetracked at the 1953
change of the Succession Law, did their military service, and Christian
eventually made a career of it.
Apparently, this tradition has not been revised by the DRF, Well
at least it hasn’t up till now!
The times are changing, traditions change, little by little in the various royal
families, realising that these days they need to ‘earn and preserve’
the respect of the people, contrary to say 50 years ago, when they
were respected by default because of the institution they represented.

Back to your question: Should two sons of the spare do their military
service, just because it’s a tradition in the family? No, if you ask me!
No, because the times have changed and the perception of royalty
has changed! My speculation is that someone insisted, because
it’s “ what we’ve always done”, and that neither of the boys were
keen to join! And that’s fair enough!
But somehow they were persuaded to give it a try, and it was
announced to all and sundry that they would join the army. It
goes without saying that the Danes expected that they would
see their time in the military through!

The last bit is nothing but my speculating, but it doesn’t rule out
that there could be a flicker of truth in it!
 
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