New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I was referring to the current commenters on social media who you mentioned.



If (emphasis on if) the commenters' issue is truly with the titles themselves, then there is no difference between what happened in the 1960s-70s to Ingolf and Christian and what happened four weeks ago to Prince Joachim's children. Each was demoted from prince(ss) to count(ess).

Sorry, no. That's not how it works. How young people on social media may or may not have reacted to something 55 years ago cannot be known. I find this to be a sort of strawman. :ermm:

Again, it's hilarious TO ME, that folks on social media are ignoring Marge about their titles on her own social media pages.?:lol::
 
Joachim's kids remaining in the public eye is absolutely something that would be relevant. They are in the public eye because they are "royals". As they no longer have this formal association, then they are now free agents who can do and say whatever they want, in addition to making whatever questionable, commercial deals they would like. That sounds great BUT...the idea that this won't be reflected on the institution does not seem realistic. Particularly for the older two who have not only grown up in the public eye, but have (lets face it) more "teen-age girl appeal" than most.

To be clear, I am not arguing for or against the title change per se, only that the motivations seem to be muddled at best, counter-productive at worst.

The Dutch King's late brother Friso and cousin Bernhard made themselves multi-millionaires with profitable investments they could exactly do because they were only in the periphery of the Royal House at first and later ceased to be members of the Royal House. So the loss of their position only openes a world of opportunities.

Once Friso was the beau of the Oranges, like Nikolai is the beau now, but soon he changed into a grumpy overweight thirtysomething businessman the Dutch almost have forgotten.

In twenty years time, when Nikolai has lost his modellish looks, is a papa of three or so, the girlies on Instagram have forgotten him. No problemo. Look at William, hard to believe that girls screamed and fainted when they saw Diana's beau. Before one realizes it, all is over and the remnant is a dullish baldy gentleman.
 
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However, I was responding to a post on online commenters who say that Joachim's children "will always be princes(ses) to them". If we take those commenters at their word, they would be dissatisfied even if the removal had been managed perfectly and even if only happened much later upon marriage as it did for Princes Ingolf and Christian - so I wondered whether those particular commenters would defend Ingolf's right to keep his title for life in the same way.

No, I think the amount of people who say "You'll always be a prince/ss" only comes from the perception of abruptness and unfairness with which this was done. It was not a public referendum nor a long-held expectation like marriage.

I think had Nikolai married and become a Count, people would be saying "Congratulations", not "You'll always be a Prince".

I also do not think the majority of people on social media remember Count Ingolf, for one thing, but I assume the succession change is taught in school and has probably had at least one documentary made, so Danes probably have some sort of general opinion on it?
 
No, I think the amount of people who say "You'll always be a prince/ss" only comes from the perception of abruptness and unfairness with which this was done. It was not a public referendum nor a long-held expectation like marriage.

I think had Nikolai married and become a Count, people would be saying "Congratulations", not "You'll always be a Prince".

I wonder about that too - perhaps not every one of the "always a Prince" comments is meant literally?


I also do not think the majority of people on social media remember Count Ingolf, for one thing, but I assume the succession change is taught in school and has probably had at least one documentary made, so Danes probably have some sort of general opinion on it?

I assumed those events remained widely known; after all, the first demotion is the sole reason why the monarch today is Queen Margrethe II and not King Ingolf Christian Frederik X, and with Count Ingolf still alive and attending the jubilee, even foreign royal watchers who are interested enough in the royal family to follow their social media accounts should be aware. But that was only my impression and I would be interested in what Danish posters have to say (please feel free to move this to the appropriate thread).


Sorry, no. That's not how it works. How young people on social media may or may not have reacted to something 55 years ago cannot be known. I find this to be a sort of strawman. :ermm:

Without reciprocating your accusation of "strawman", the idea that no person (regardless of age, as I do not know if the commenters you mentioned were young or old) has a view on events 55 years or longer in the past, particularly those relevant to recent events, is contrary to my experiences; from what I have seen, even the actions of royals from centuries ago (colonialism, slavery) still arouse strong opinions, including on social media.

In any case, I indeed have no way of knowing the views of those commenters - thus the "I wonder". However, with the exception of those who are unaware of those events, either a Royal House instagram follower condones the treatment of Ingolf and siblings or they do not, whether they make their opinion known on social media or not. Since the Royal House apparently does not post birthday wishes for Count Ingolf, there is less opportunity to discuss it than there is for Athena.
 
That seems to be the case for the majority of the public, to judge from the scientific opinion poll posted here a few months ago, wherein the populace supported the change by 2:1. (Has there been any more recent public opinion polling?)

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/efter-titelfratagelsen-flertal-af-danskere-enige-med-dronningen

However, I was responding to a post on online commenters who say that Joachim's children "will always be princes(ses) to them". If we take those commenters at their word, they would be dissatisfied even if the removal had been managed perfectly and even if only happened much later upon marriage as it did for Princes Ingolf and Christian - so I wondered whether those particular commenters would defend Ingolf's right to keep his title for life in the same way.
I see.

Yeah, there have probably been more surveys made. However, in all I have seen so far a majority says: Agree with the decision, very badly handled.
People say a lot when they comment online.
I think Duc et Pair and Prinsara explains it well.

No, I think the amount of people who say "You'll always be a prince/ss" only comes from the perception of abruptness and unfairness with which this was done. It was not a public referendum nor a long-held expectation like marriage.

I think had Nikolai married and become a Count, people would be saying "Congratulations", not "You'll always be a Prince".

I also do not think the majority of people on social media remember Count Ingolf, for one thing, but I assume the succession change is taught in school and has probably had at least one documentary made, so Danes probably have some sort of general opinion on it?

Once Friso was the beau of the Oranges, like Nikolai is the beau now, but soon he changed into a grumpy overweight thirtysomething businessman the Dutch almost have forgotten.

In twenty years time, when Nikolai has lost his modellish looks, is a papa of three or so, the girlies on Instagram have forgotten him. No problemo. Look at William, hard to believe that girls screamed and fainted when they saw Diana's beau. Before one realizes it, all is over and the remnant is a dullish baldy gentleman.
 
Without reciprocating your accusation of "strawman", the idea that no person (regardless of age, as I do not know if the commenters you mentioned were young or old) has a view on events 55 years or longer in the past, particularly those relevant to recent events, is contrary to my experiences; from what I have seen, even the actions of royals from centuries ago (colonialism, slavery) still arouse strong opinions, including on social media.

In any case, I indeed have no way of knowing the views of those commenters - thus the "I wonder". However, with the exception of those who are unaware of those events, either a Royal House instagram follower condones the treatment of Ingolf and siblings or they do not, whether they make their opinion known on social media or not. Since the Royal House apparently does not post birthday wishes for Count Ingolf, there is less opportunity to discuss it than there is for Athena.


I'm gonna peace out on this conversation since in my opinion it cannot be answered.....
 
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I'm gonna peace out on this conversation since in my opinion it cannot be answered.....

Just in case it was unclear: My original remarks/wondering about the Instagram commenters were never meant to be directed at you or your post in any way. :flowers: I did not have links to the actual comments at hand, so it was simply quicker for me to quote your generalized post about them.
 
The Dutch King's late brother Friso and cousin Bernhard made themselves multi-millionaires with profitable investments they could exactly do because they were only in the periphery of the Royal House at first and later ceased to be members of the Royal House. So the loss of their position only openes a world of opportunities.

Once Friso was the beau of the Oranges, like Nikolai is the beau now, but soon he changed into a grumpy overweight thirtysomething businessman the Dutch almost have forgotten.

In twenty years time, when Nikolai has lost his modellish looks, is a papa of three or so, the girlies on Instagram have forgotten him. No problemo. Look at William, hard to believe that girls screamed and fainted when they saw Diana's beau. Before one realizes it, all is over and the remnant is a dullish baldy gentleman.

Aside from the fact no one will be using Instagram at all in twenty years, it's rather more relevant if Nik and Felix do anything that reflects negatively on the rest of the family in the next five or ten or so. Henrik and Athena? Probably ten to fifteen, since they are so young.

And what Alexandra said is "they can't lose their ties; anything they do wrong will be reflected back, anyway", and she is 1000% right (maybe 1010%, since she's so media-aware).

(For that matter, William may be a dullish baldy dad, but he's still not completely unattractive, and I imagine lots of people are like me and have a soft spot for him and the days when he was gorgeous. The difference is Will is going to be king and remains highly visible, no matter what.)
 
:previous: Respectfully, I very much disagree with that argument. Naturally, their ties to the DRF would be brought but the difference is that they wouldn't be held to the same standards as their cousins and the DRF wouldn't be held accountable for wrongdoings. That's a pretty significant change.

Joachim's kids remaining in the public eye is absolutely something that would be relevant. They are in the public eye because they are "royals". As they no longer have this formal association, then they are now free agents who can do and say whatever they want, in addition to making whatever questionable, commercial deals they would like. That sounds great BUT...the idea that this won't be reflected on the institution does not seem realistic. Particularly for the older two who have not only grown up in the public eye, but have (lets face it) more "teen-age girl appeal" than most.

I don't think I ever commented on the relevance of them remaining in the public eye. (Which, by the way, is largely dependent on their own choices – as is already reflected in Nikolai and Felix where, so far, Felix has chosen to be significantly less "on" than Nikolai which the press has respected).

As I mentioned above, obviously their affiliation to the DRF will be brought up if they put a foot wrong but for the DRF at least, there's a significant difference between them having to answer for any blunders and the kids being accountable for their own actions.
 
so as not to derail the other thread about her interview, This is what the Queen says about the title change:
"I'm not really happy to get into it, to be honest. I could say something, but you shouldn't say everything. For me, it has been important that it should not be Frederik's lot to make such a decision. It was better that it was me,' says the Queen and elaborates:

"Because then it is the old queen who has decided it. But it's a little too close yet to talk about.'
https://www.bt.dk/royale/derfor-tog-dronning-margrethe-titlerne-fra-prins-joachims-boern
 
The fact that this was announced soon after Elizabeth's death and with reference to other royal houses, made me think one of her main motivations was to ensure that she was the one to make the decision [and nobody knows how many more years they are given - so waiting until Joachim came around wasn't really an option], so good to see it confirmed. And I applaud her for 'taking one for the team' (or in this case 'her successor').
 
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Her explanation makes sense and goes along the lines of what many here have guessed: She'd rather be the one to do it than leave the dirty work for Frederik. Given that it apparently wasn't on the table to let the kids keep their titles, I think it was a smart choice for her to be the one to remove them.

How they went about it... less so, but again, we only know very little (and from one party's perspective) of how the process went.
 
I understand that it was better for her to make the decision than to leave this matter to Frederik to resolve.
So when Frederik becomes king, this matter is already forgotten.
 
:previous: perhaps not forgotten, but certainly settled once and for all.
it would be most unusual if frederik were to change a decision his mother made, especially after she has openly said that she did it to spare him for future grievances.
it will also (or rather was intended) to put an end to speculations in the press about to what extent frederik was involved. - i won't mention anyone, but the BT is out again tonight speculating about to what extend frederik was involved.

- in a roundabout way i suppose it does make sense, if she "suddenly" took the decision without informing frederik, because then frederik can claim plausible deniability both in regards to the public and joachim. that should help heal the rift within the family we may hope.

- however, there is something seriously wrong with the family dynamics and the communication within the family, if they can't all sit down and discuss an amiable solution. so something is still amiss within the DRF.
 
Not impressed with how the Queen handled this issue of removing her grandchildren’s title.
She lacks being tactful in her judgement. I do wonder how she is handling other issues her country does not know about. Might be time to hand over “the reins” with dignity. Jmoo
 
Problems in the state of Denmark

Not impressed with how the Queen handled this issue of removing her grandchildren’s title.
She lacks being tactful in her judgement. I do wonder how she is handling other issues her country does not know about. Might be time to hand over “the reins” with dignity. Jmoo

I fully agree with you, it would never happen in the kingdom of the Netherlands when queen Beatrix was queen, it was all resolved before queen Beatrix abdicated,
 
I fully agree with you, it would never happen in the kingdom of the Netherlands when queen Beatrix was queen, it was all resolved before queen Beatrix abdicated,


But the resolved all of this before persons who would be affected were born.
 
Not impressed with how the Queen handled this issue of removing her grandchildren’s title.
She lacks being tactful in her judgement. I do wonder how she is handling other issues her country does not know about. Might be time to hand over “the reins” with dignity. Jmoo


We don't know how QM handled it. We only know how Joachim and his wives handled it, moaning about it publicly, in the gossip rags. Bad form, and very immature.
 
We don't know how QM handled it. We only know how Joachim and his wives handled it, moaning about it publicly, in the gossip rags. Bad form, and very immature.


We do know her oldest grandchild hasn't spoken to her in months and we know her younger son, his wife, his ex-wife weren't happy with her at all and that they hadn't spoken for a long period of time. So I would say that no, everything wasn't handled well regardless of what side you're on. Someone who was attune to her family's feelings and had great communication with them wouldn't have gotten the reaction she did.
 
So nothing new really, I'm intrigued though because it seems it was agreed long ago the children would loose their titles upon marriage anyway, even Alexandra said that and made it seem that had been accepted so what was Daisy saving Fred from? She could simply have made a point to reiterate the fact the agreement was for the children to loose their titles upon marriage, an agreement made by her. Putting that out there in some way (which would seem easier to do during a jubilee year IMO) would maybe have been enough.
I can see it from her point of view in a way, its doing something to save Frederik but it also IMO suggests there is a real unease in the relationship between the brothers and so Daisy felt best to take one for the team rather than create even more tension between them? All that said a part of me actually wonders if this isn't just a case of finding an answer to fit the question after the fact. This answer makes it look like Daisy was doing something for the good of at least one of her sons which given the bad PR she has had because of it all, especially with a focus on how cold a grandmother she seems to be, at least salvages something. A clever PR move maybe now they've had time to regroup from the initial shock at the reaction. Call me cynical but when Communication teams mess up as bad as this was intitially they do usually step up their game.

I actually find these comments begs more questions than they answer - just a different set of questions.

What is clear though, Daisy thinks she has done the right thing for the right reasons - to save Fred looking bad. The family dynamic is odd as anything with, seemingly, Fred and Joachim not in a great place (hence Daisy's need to do Fred's dirty work) and Joachim and Daisy now not in a great place because of it. As was always the case it really was how it was done rather than what was done that was the biggest PR nightmare and likely caused the most pain for the RF so that is all on Daisy still. She clearly has very little sensitivity towards her family and seems very much focussed on the succession - fair enough you may say that is her job, but still it says much about her to be unable to juggle family and crown.
 
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I go back to this part of her quote, "I could say something, but you shouldn't say everything" and agree with her 100%.
Not everything should be exposed to the media, it could be saving some members some blushes. Very wise of the Queen : )
 
Well I certainly hope she doesn't mean anything like that - poor form to lead speculation like that about your own family. There is no reason to suggest for one second the grandchildren have done anything wrong other than not being born to the oldest child of their grandmother.
 
We do know her oldest grandchild hasn't spoken to her in months and we know her younger son, his wife, his ex-wife weren't happy with her at all and that they hadn't spoken for a long period of time. So I would say that no, everything wasn't handled well regardless of what side you're on. Someone who was attune to her family's feelings and had great communication with them wouldn't have gotten the reaction she did.

Well given what she said about Prince Henrik in the interview, your last sentence makes much sense.
 
Yet again, I don't think Margrethe has really thought about what she is saying. Frederik is 54 years old, and needs his mother to do the hard work for him? This doesn't inspire faith in Frederik's future abilities and brings me back to the days before he was married and many whispered that he wasn't cut out to be King. I don't think Queen Margrethe's latest comments are helping anyone but the tabloids create new fodder. I certainly don't think her new comments help any of her children, or her.

The Queen's continued commentary regarding removing the titles could be a Royal Master Class in how *not* to handle difficult family situations publicly. I hope other royal families are at least watching and learning from this. (I also still fail to see how Joachim's children having prince/princess titles until marriage would plunge the Danish Monarchy into chaos and darkness.)
 
Well given what she said about Prince Henrik in the interview, your last sentence makes much sense.

We do know her oldest grandchild hasn't spoken to her in months and we know her younger son, his wife, his ex-wife weren't happy with her at all and that they hadn't spoken for a long period of time. So I would say that no, everything wasn't handled well regardless of what side you're on. Someone who was attune to her family's feelings and had great communication with them wouldn't have gotten the reaction she did.

that is indeed the point. she was not, and has a history of not, being attuned to her family's feelings. certainly not when she is wearing her "queen-hat".

in the interview she admitted - again - freely that she was not aware of her husband's grievances. as she puts it he was not a type to plat second violin.

she may simply have problems noticing, acknowledging and responding to the feelings of other people. - at least while in the present. because afterwards, upon reflecting, she is perfectly able to see her mistakes.
i suspect QMII can be a formidable, perhaps even stubborn, opponent to approach. - not as in tyrannical, but more like: the cupboard is to stand there! end of discussion.
she may be tonedeaf so to speak, because she has been in charge for so many years and she is used to making the decision.
i also suspect she is not in the habit of asking for advise or discussing something before making a decision. unless it immediately makes sense to her or it's something she really doesn't know anything about, say law or economy or whatever.
in other words: if you fail to persuade her early on, she is not open for further discussion. stubbornness runs deep within the DRF!

the interview leads me to conclude that there is nothing wrong with QMII's mental faculties. she is as sharp as ever.
it is no secret that one of my many theories was that QMII was suffering from some sort of dementia. that theory, i think it's safe to say, is now out the window. - while that theory would explain many things it would also be horrible for me to be right! dementia in whatever form is not a trivial matter! it's something i genuinely fear both for myself and my loved ones.
another thing to back up the dismissal of the dementia-theory is the journalist. he is a vet competent journalist with a high and respected sense of integrity. this interview would not have been published had QMII appeared unhinged. - not least in the light of the last meeting between the press and PH, where he was clearly no longer himself. the DK-press don't want to publish something like that again.

having said that, i believe the buck mainly lies at QMII. there was, at least on the face of it, no obvious need for QMII to act the way she did. it showed a fundamental lack of empathy with members of her family.
she ought to have been able to call a family-pow wow and ensure a reasonable amiable solution was found. she clearly didn't.
if she hasn't learned that family-members have feelings as well (also pretty irrational feelings) by now, i doubt she ever will.

and finally repeating myself: this would never have happened had PH still been around, because he knew his family. and i think he knew other sides of his family, that QMII either didn't notice or really didn't care about.

she also says in the interview that communication was lacking within the family and that is something that is worked on. - well, Margrethe, you could start by inviting your two oldest grandsons over for a cup of tea and a very long talk. where nikolai and felix do the talking, that is! because you cannot talk and listen at the same time... no one can.
 
Yet again, I don't think Margrethe has really thought about what she is saying. Frederik is 54 years old, and needs his mother to do the hard work for him? This doesn't inspire faith in Frederik's future abilities and brings me back to the days before he was married and many whispered that he wasn't cut out to be King. I don't think Queen Margrethe's latest comments are helping anyone but the tabloids create new fodder. I certainly don't think her new comments help any of her children, or her.

My interpretation is not that Frederik cannot handle it (he most certainly can) but that it is much easier to remove titles as a grandmother (as they are your own descendants(!)) versus removing titles as an uncle (as you might be accused of not caring about your nephews and niece).
 
She is a very intelligent, capable, and accomplished person who for whatever reason remains (more than) a bit insecure.

Perhaps she's gotten used to 50 years of the "queen-hat" as a way to avoid confrontations and other people's unsettling feelings, the way Elizabeth used the dogs and simply ignoring things (and her EQ may have been a touch higher than QMII — she still really disliked confrontation, however).

And perhaps she feels if she makes the decisions as Queen Margrethe, they cannot be blamed on Daisy the nervous lady who hasn't quite mastered close relationships and perhaps doesn't want to or even fears upsetting people, but does it anyway.

My interpretation is not that Frederik cannot handle it (he most certainly can) but that it is much easier to remove titles as a grandmother (as they are your own descendants(!)) versus removing titles as an uncle (as you might be accused of not caring about your nephews and niece).

How is it better to be seen as punishing or not caring about your grandchildren? :ermm:
 
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My interpretation is not that Frederik cannot handle it (he most certainly can) but that it is much easier to remove titles as a grandmother (as they are your own descendants(!)) versus removing titles as an uncle (as you might be accused of not caring about your nephews and niece).

indeed. and in this case frederik can continue to be the nice brother, brother-in-law and uncle.

it was still handled in a very unfortunate manner though. so now uncle frederik is left with the tedious task of mending things within the family. on top of the many other problems he has to deal with, when he takes over.
 
How is it better to be seen as punishing or not caring about your grandchildren? :ermm:

It isn't better. However, if people still claim that her decision was made because she couldn't care less about her OWN descendants that's on them. She most definitely cares: they are her own flesh and blood. However, she made a decision that in her eyes is the right decision for the monarchy - so, even while her own descendants are 'at stake', she is willing to do what needs to be done.
 
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