Monaco's succession issues

[Florestane]

Prince Rainier was 81 (nearly 82) when he died - he was also in poor health for a couple of years beforehand. So Jacques could only be in his early 20s - an adult but what a burden at the start of your adult life!

Anyway, worst case scenario - here's to many years of health for Albert.

 

[MARG]

I totally agree with you. P. Charlene doesn´t seem to have neither the knowledge, nor the experience nor the foreign prestige ( and personally i don't think she has no interesset whatsoever in these matters either... ) to take the reins of a state. On the other hand P. Caroline, because of her cultural and social work within Monaco and abroad seems to me a much more suitable and logical choice foir a regent in case of need...

I don't get it. Charlene is Albert's wife, the considerably younger mother of his heirs and presumably being instructed in the workings of the Principality. We have absolutely no reason to suppose otherwise. Princess Caroline has a long history of charity and cultural work and this makes her more suitable to run a country how? She is older, that's it. Hey, she may even predecease her brother!

It has always been a fascination of mine the way that Monaco became all about Grace when HSH Prince Rainier married her and, since her death, all about her fabulous daughter Caroline. Neither of them had anything to recommend them from any other person of note, other than their beauty. AKA, Hollywood strikes again!

For years as Albert failed to marry, Caroline was de facto First Lady and heir presumptive and her children were heirs by default. But they are all pretty people and it was presumed that when the not so slim Albert finally popped his clogs, Caroline (if she hadn't predeceased her younger brother) would become Her Serene Highness The Sovereign Princess of Monaco, her children, its heirs.

But, Albert did marry and Albert does have legal heirs, two of them and so Princess Caroline is in the same situation as Princess Margaret, Prince Andrew and Prince Harry, basically redundant, barring the death of their sibling and his/her heirs. But the Monaco Dream Machine is still running and it says Caroline will rule. I think even the word "Regent" stuck in her fans throats, but they'd take it if that was as close as she got. But now, not only is she not destined to rule, she is not destined to be Regent either.

So unless something disastrous happens and wipes out the entire Regent family, Princess Caroline and her children's destinies lie elsewhere. And I know that's not the Hollywood way but HSH Charlene will be Regent if worst comes to worst.

But I'm betting that a healthier and happier Prince Albert will continue to thrive as a loving husband and father way past is his heir's 18th birthday.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

It has always been a fascination of mine the way that Monaco became all about Grace when HSH Prince Rainier married her and, since her death, all about her fabulous daughter Caroline. Neither of them had anything to recommend them from any other person of note, other than their beauty. AKA, Hollywood strikes again

The thousands of Monegasques who lined the streets of the Principality on the day of the funeral of HSH Princess Grace would probably not agree with you MARG. And neither would the members of every ruling House in Europe who packed into the Cathedral to mourn her. She was an intelligent, warm dedicated woman who transformed the tiny country from simply a gathering spot for millionaire lounge lizards who liked to gamble...into a place where arts and culture flourished. Her very presence raised the profile of Monaco so that it became a place where VIP's and assorted Beautiful People gathered to raise enormous amounts of money for the Red Cross. Grace left her her dazzling film career behind to devote herself to her new country and it's people and their language with a vengeance. As one Monegasque said when she died..."Monaco was empty before she came here, now it's empty again" (quoted from PEOPLE magazine, Sept 1982)

Her daughter Caroline, despite the scandal and tragedy of her personal life, has done her share to continue to promote the cultural, artistic and intellectual life of Monaco. She is a brilliant woman who is equally at home discussing existential philosophy as she is discussing fashion and ballet...and she can do so in flawless English, French, German, Italian and Spanish, not to mention the Monegasque dialect.

"Nothing to recommend them....other than their beauty"? Really?

The fact that Grace and her daughter were counted among the world's most beautiful women is simply icing on the very large cake.

 

[Florestane]

I don't get it. Charlene is Albert's wife, the considerably younger mother of his heirs and presumably being instructed in the workings of the Principality. We have absolutely no reason to suppose otherwise. Princess Caroline has a long history of charity and cultural work and this makes her more suitable to run a country how? She is older, that's it. Hey, she may even predecease her brother!

It has always been a fascination of mine the way that Monaco became all about Grace when HSH Prince Rainier married her and, since her death, all about her fabulous daughter Caroline. Neither of them had anything to recommend them from any other person of note, other than their beauty. AKA, Hollywood strikes again!

For years as Albert failed to marry, Caroline was de facto First Lady and heir presumptive and her children were heirs by default. But they are all pretty people and it was presumed that when the not so slim Albert finally popped his clogs, Caroline (if she hadn't predeceased her younger brother) would become Her Serene Highness The Sovereign Princess of Monaco, her children, its heirs.

But, Albert did marry and Albert does have legal heirs, two of them and so Princess Caroline is in the same situation as Princess Margaret, Prince Andrew and Prince Harry, basically redundant, barring the death of their sibling and his/her heirs. But the Monaco Dream Machine is still running and it says Caroline will rule. I think even the word "Regent" stuck in her fans throats, but they'd take it if that was as close as she got. But now, not only is she not destined to rule, she is not destined to be Regent either.

So unless something disastrous happens and wipes out the entire Regent family, Princess Caroline and her children's destinies lie elsewhere. And I know that's not the Hollywood way but HSH Charlene will be Regent if worst comes to worst.

But I'm betting that a healthier and happier Prince Albert will continue to thrive as a loving husband and father way past is his heir's 18th birthday.

Whilst I don't agree with you about Grace and Caroline's contributions I do agree there is a new "world order" in Monaco. Albert's family is now centre stage as it should be. Unlike some other observers, I think Caroline is quite happy with her life as it is now.

I too hope Albert has a long life so his children are able to enjoy a certain degree of freedom, as he did, before assuming their responsibilities.

Charlene hasn't been prepared for ruling like Albert but neither had Grace so it doesn't matter. As I said in a previous post, there are plenty of people involved in the state machinery able to support where required. Her most important role would be as a mother to a child in an awful position.

And, although I will no doubt get a bashing from the people who think she's perfect, I do hope Charlene manages to improve her French before (if) such an eventuality comes to pass.

But, here's wishing a long life to Albert. He may be overweight but he's still very sporty so he's probably very fit.

 

[eya]

The Rainier had appointed a regency Grace which made now and Albert appointed the wife and mother of his successor. Because we do not know what the future brings (see Grace) let us hope a happy life with their twins and nothing else.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Let us not forget that any Prince or Regent, no matter in which monarchy in Europe, are "just" the heads of a state machinery.

When Prince Albert II suddenly dies and Princess Charlène is the Regentess, the water will still flow out of Monaco's water-taps, the ATM-machines will still work, the Ville de Monaco will still collect the dustbins in the streets, monégasques who want to marry still can go to the Town Hall. The whole machinery of state just continues. The person of the Regent(ess) is not that important. What Charlène will do is what Albert II already does: signing off the piles of documents which are delivered by the Ministère d'État and the lady from Bulawayo, Zimbabwe, will simply sign these documents.

She will have no idea about the fiscality regulations for foreign entrepreneurs who want to establish a business in Monaco, she will have no idea about the principality's plan to meet the eco-responsible ambitions for the 21st century, she will have no idea about the permission asked by that company outside the city who wants to enlarge the building and purchase a protected nature site for it. Really, she barely masters French language... She will just place her signature and with that, Her Serene Highness the Regentess -in name of the Prince- has approved what was 100% prepared by the Ministère d'État.

 

[MARG]

Well whatever ideas I have about Charlene, perfect isn't one of them. I am always wary when people say someone is perfect because it leaves no room to be and to grow. Damned by faint praise no less. No, I believe Charlene is being and growing, learning and becoming more her own person. But I have no ledger to pass or fail her. How can I? I do no know her.

"Nothing to recommend them....other than their beauty"? Really?

Well no, had that been what I wrote. But it looks great using literary license excepting, of course, the lack of context.

Neither of them had anything to recommend them from any other person of note, other than their beauty.

As to Grace, well IMO she put the visual glamour back into a Monaco that was pitching itself at the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And it worked. But that does not mean that Grace had a great intellect, although she was obviously no slouch. But referencing her death and those that mourned at her funeral is irrelevant to this debate.

The overall perception of Caroline is that she is a very beautiful woman defined by the men in her life. She is educated and very cosmopolitan, but that does not make her more deserving of the role of Regent.

This is not and was not a personal slap about Grace or Caroline, but an opinion about their personal lives and the requirements of a Regent. Further, I cannot comprehend why Prince Albert's choice of Regent has been seen as some sort of personal slight against his sister and the notion that regardless of what is laid down by the law, Princess Caroline or Andrea would be running the show (doing the hard work) behind the scenes and Charlene can flutter about playing princess, going to balls, galas and fronting the House of Grimaldi.

I believe that is exactly what Albert has ensured will not happen.

 

[melina premiere]

I pray that Albert will stay in good health and could learn his son, his future role of ruler

As Duc and Pair said, there is a state machinery which go on to work with advicers and ministere of state


If a sad event would happen , the constitution will be applied and Charlene will be regente after the constitution. The crown Council will meet and will look after that the constitutioon is well applied and nothing could be change , the constitution says the wife of the sovereign will be regente and nobody else would do the work in the shadow , all must be notified in the constituttion, all must be clear for the people of Monaco and for the persons who are working in the ministers of state, there must be one person with whom they are working, the constitution is saying that it is the wife of the sovereign and nobody else .
She will meet the ministers of state, will sign the agreements in the name of her son, she will receive foreign visitors in the name of her son with the miniesters of state,
If Caroline would have a work in this regency , the constitution would have said that there will be a co regency cy with the wife of the sovereign , there is nothing , the constitution says it will be the wife of the soveriegn nobody else , Charlene will be regent in entire part . and the crow Council will look after it will be Charlene who will be regent and nobody else.


The constitution of 2002 said already that in case of the death of the sovereign or his empechement that the wife of the prince sovereign will be the regent , Albert did an ordennance last juni 2th and did not change the articles about the regency. He did not change the articles that his father did in the new constitution , he only changed articles about the birth of the twins, the law of the nationality of the wife of the prince and about the owns of the crown.


Caroline already knew that in case of the death of the prince that it would be the wife of the prince who will be the regent and she knows that there is nothing against her . I think that there are persons here in the royal forums who are dreaming , Caroline would not play a role in the shadow, it is not notified in the constitution and this constitution will be applied in case of a very sad event, there will not be the war of the two roses.
The choice is done .

 

[Moonmaiden23]

[As to Grace, well IMO she put the visual glamour back into a Monaco that was pitching itself at the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And it worked. But that does not mean that Grace had a great intellect, although she was obviously no slouch. But referencing her death and those that mourned at her funeral is irrelevant to this debate]//quote

No, it's not irrelevant at all MARG. Because if the princess had truly not had "anything more to recommend her than any other person of note except her beauty"(your exact words btw) her impact on Monaco and indeed Europe and the world would not have been as powerful as it was. People genuinely grieved for this woman and her physical beauty was just a part of the reason. And I never said she was a great intellect at all...that would be her daughter Caroline.

Few people have been as big a cheerleader for Princess Charlene on this Forum as I have. She is warm and kind, the most elegantly dressed of all the princesses(imo) she has given Monaco TWO beautiful heirs and is passionately devoted to the welfare of children all over the world. I am not saying that it would be a MISTAKE to make her Regent.

But my opinion is that she could do a lot worse than to have the assistance of her sister-in-law if she ever has the misfortune to lose her husband, that's all.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is not important if Princess Charlène glamorous or not, if she is an academic-schooled lady or not, if she is in a wheelchair or not. She just affirms what has been done by the Government. Compare it with M François Hollande, Président de la république française. He will sign hundreds and hundreds of documents, every week again. In 90% of the cases -probably more- he will have no idea what he is signing, but he trusts that the Cabinet, the ministerial departments, etc. will have prepared everyting according all constitutional rules. That is in essence no different to what a Regentess will do. It is all prepared, Princess Charlène will be helped by an excellent and experienced staff, like Prince Albert has been helped the past 10 years.

 

[Marty91charmed]

Albert is not an old man, he is only middle aged. If he lives as long as his father Rainier III(86 years old) Jacques will be about 30 years old when he comes to the Throne, more than old enough to rule.

My hope and prayer is that a Regency will not be needed.

Sorry, I meant there is a important gap of years between Jacques and him

 

[Florestane]

Well whatever ideas I have about Charlene, perfect isn't one of them. I am always wary when people say someone is perfect because it leaves no room to be and to grow. .

Sorry Marg - wasn't saying you personally thought she was perfect, just that some people on this forum take exception to criticism (real or perceived) of Charlene. Should the occasion arise (and here's hoping it doesn't) she will be fine - the state machinery is in place to help her, should she wish to seek advice from the wider Grimaldi family I'm sure she would, but it would be unofficial.

As I said before I really don't think Caroline would expect or want to be regent. She has a very nice life with her own children and grandchildren and the charities and organizations she is involved with.

 

[MARG]

Yes, I understood you were making a general comment, accurate but true.

I am hoping that Albert will live a long and happy life as longevity seems to run in his family. It would also render the Regency decision moot. Albert has appointed the mother of his children to act for them should the worst happen and it can as he well knows.

His sisters have their own lives and families and they attend to them just as Charlene will attend to hers.

 

[principessa]

What does happens with a child born out of wedlock, if its parents have decided to marry and the mother or the father died before the marriage took place? Will it be not included in the line of succession for lifetime or is there a special law to include a child?

 

[TheRoyalCourtisane]

What does happens with a child born out of wedlock, if its parents have decided to marry and the mother or the father died before the marriage took place? Will it be not included in the line of succession for lifetime or is there a special law to include a child?

They are usually not recognize by the Crown or the Royals Family thus not in line to the throne. A good example will be H.S.H Prince Albert of Monaco 2 children born out of wedlock. Even if the parents marry after it will still be considered out of wedlock.

 

[Florestane]

They are usually not recognize by the Crown or the Royals Family thus not in line to the throne. A good example will be H.S.H Prince Albert of Monaco 2 children born out of wedlock. Even if the parents marry after it will still be considered out of wedlock.

But that's not what happened with the Ducruet children - they became part of the line of succession once Stephanie and Daniel married. I think the same was true for Princess Antoinette's children as well in the 1950s - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[TheRoyalCourtisane]

But that's not what happened with the Ducruet children - they became part of the line of succession once Stephanie and Daniel married. I think the same was true for Princess Antoinette's children as well in the 1950s - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

That's absolutely true I had forgotten about the Ducruet Children but do remember that Princess Stephanie has another children who is not in line to the throne.
For Princess Antoinette was the same but do not that her mother Princess Charlotte was pure luck cause her father was unable to have legitimate children

 

[Ish]

What does happens with a child born out of wedlock, if its parents have decided to marry and the mother or the father died before the marriage took place? Will it be not included in the line of succession for lifetime or is there a special law to include a child?

In Monaco, children can be legitimatized by their parents' subsequent marriage provided that they weren't born as the result of adultery. This applies to the succession - if someone in the line of succession has a child out of wedlock then subsequently marries the child's other parent then the child is included in the succession if neither of his/her parents were married to someone else at the time of their birth. However, if adultery was committed or if the parents never marry, then the child can never be in the line of succession.

In practice this means that... Albert II's eldest daughter, Jazmin, can never be in the succession as her mother was married to another man when she was born. His eldest son, Alexandre, theoretically could be in the line of succession if Albert were to marry Alexandre's mother (and would be ahead of both of his younger half-siblings). Similarly, Stephanie's eldest children, Louis and Pauline, were legitimatized when their parents married, but her youngest, Camille, hasn't because her parents aren't but could be as no adultery was committed. Sacha Casiraghi was legitimatized as well when his parents married, and Raphael Elmahel could be if his parents married.

 

[TheRoyalCourtisane]

In Monaco, children can be legitimatized by their parents' subsequent marriage provided that they weren't born as the result of adultery. This applies to the succession - if someone in the line of succession has a child out of wedlock then subsequently marries the child's other parent then the child is included in the succession if neither of his/her parents were married to someone else at the time of their birth. However, if adultery was committed or if the parents never marry, then the child can never be in the line of succession.

In practice this means that... Albert II's eldest daughter, Jazmin, can never be in the succession as her mother was married to another man when she was born. His eldest son, Alexandre, theoretically could be in the line of succession if Albert were to marry Alexandre's mother (and would be ahead of both of his younger half-siblings). Similarly, Stephanie's eldest children, Louis and Pauline, were legitimatized when their parents married, but her youngest, Camille, hasn't because her parents aren't but could be as no adultery was committed. Sacha Casiraghi was legitimatized as well when his parents married, and Raphael Elmahel could be if his parents married.

Ish explained it in more detail that I did. But like I said earlier the only illegitimate child to be in line without her parents getting married was Princess Charlotte Duchess of Massy also Duchess if Valentinois to a change in Succession rights back which became invalid later on

 

[Ish]

RoyalCourtisane, the case of Princess Charlotte was different.

The succession laws were chnaged in 2002 to allow the succession of legitimatized children, to expand the succession to include the siblings and their descendants of the monarch, and to prohibit adopted children from being in the succession.

Prior to then, adopted children could be in the succession and it was as an adopted child that Charlotte was in the line of succession. Her father, Louis II, had no legitimate children or siblings, so he adopted his illegitimate daughter, Charlotte, making her his heir presumptive. When her son, Rainier III, turned 21 she renounced her succession rights, making Rainier the heir presumptive.

Rainier likely changed the succession to allow for the Grimaldi's to continue in the event that his son never married and had legitimate children, while also preventing his son from simply adopting his illegitimate daughter (the rules were changed before Alexandre was born).

 

[fandesacs2003]

I thought that a law existing that if Pc Rainier and after him it was no legitimate heir in Monaco, the the State would be attached to France. The law was done to allow Andrea and Pierre Casiraghi to be in line of the throne. I do not know if Pc Rainier knew Jasmin's existence. Pc Albert recognized her after his father's passing.

 

[Florestane]

I thought that a law existing that if Pc Rainier and after him it was no legitimate heir in Monaco, the the State would be attached to France. The law was done to allow Andrea and Pierre Casiraghi to be in line of the throne. I do not know if Pc Rainier knew Jasmin's existence. Pc Albert recognized her after his father's passing.

That law was changed a fair while ago - sorry, can't remember dates. There was no issue, AFAIK, with Andrea and Pierre, or indeed, Charlotte, inheriting if need be - they were born from a legally recognised marriage.

 

[principessa]

But what happens with a child born out of wedlock with engaged when one of the parents dies in the engagement time (f. e. two days before the wedding take place)? Could there be a legitimation afterwards?

 

[Florestane]

That law was changed a fair while ago - sorry, can't remember dates. There was no issue, AFAIK, with Andrea and Pierre, or indeed, Charlotte, inheriting if need be - they were born from a legally recognised marriage.

Not as the constitution stands at the moment. But the Grimaldi family has always valued the expedient option so should the need arise in the future...

 

[Ish]

I thought that a law existing that if Pc Rainier and after him it was no legitimate heir in Monaco, the the State would be attached to France. The law was done to allow Andrea and Pierre Casiraghi to be in line of the throne. I do not know if Pc Rainier knew Jasmin's existence. Pc Albert recognized her after his father's passing.

Jazmin's mother filed a paternity suit against Albert as early as 1992. While he didn't confirm that he was the father until 2006, Rainier would have certainly known of her existence.

He may or may not have known of Alexandre's - Alexandre was born during Rainier's lifetime but that paternity suit didn't begin until after Rainier's passing.

Prior to the 2002 changes to the succession, it was law that if the Prince died without a heir Monaco would become a protectorate of France. The 2002 changes amended things to put more people in the line itself (the siblings and their descendants of the Prince instead of just the Prince's descendants).

But what happens with a child born out of wedlock with engaged when one of the parents dies in the engagement time (f. e. two days before the wedding take place)? Could there be a legitimation afterwards?

They wouldn't be in the succession. That said, as the Prince(ss) of Monaco has the power to change the succession themselves, if something like that happened and the child was high enough up for it to make a difference (ie if it was Albert's grandchild as opposed to the grandchild of one of his sisters), then they could change the succession to allow for the inheritance.

 

[Denville]

They wouldn't be in the succession. That said, as the Prince(ss) of Monaco has the power to change the succession themselves, if something like that happened and the child was high enough up for it to make a difference (ie if it was Albert's grandchild as opposed to the grandchild of one of his sisters), then they could change the succession to allow for the inheritance.

THe law is still that if the Monarch has not got an heir, the state woudl be annexed to France? But I think the changes were that chhildren who were born out of wedlock, could be legitimated by their parents subsequently marrying. (I may be wrong but I think that Stephanie's first 2 chldren were born before she married Ducruet but they then became legitimate when she married him.

But if the couple coudl not marry, then the child would not be legitimate. I imagine though the child could be adopted and thereby made legitimate, but they would probalby only do that if there were no closer heirs.

 

[titiromi]

When prince Jacques will be the prince sovereign, will princess Caroline, princess Stephanie and their children be out of the line of succession ? Like it was the case for princess Antoinette and her children?

 

[Denville]

When prince Jacques will be the prince sovereign, will princess Caroline, princess Stephanie and their children be out of the line of succession ? Like it was the case for princess Antoinette and her children?

I dont see why they would. I think with Rainier, Antoinette wanted out of hte succession..

 

[Spheno]

When prince Jacques will be the prince sovereign, will princess Caroline, princess Stephanie and their children be out of the line of succession ? Like it was the case for princess Antoinette and her children?

Yes, they will lost their places in the line of succession after Albert's death.

Only descendants of the ruling Prince(ss), his/her siblings and siblings' descendants are in the line.

 

[Denville]

Yes, they will lost their places in the line of succession after Albert's death.

Only descendants of the ruling Prince(ss), his/her siblings and siblings' descendants are in the line.

I didn't know that. But wasn't Antoinette' Rainiers sister? so why were her children excluded?