Monaco's succession issues

[Tatiana Maria]

Purely theoretical, but should P.Albert and P.Charlene divorce and P.Albert remarry the mother of his daughter Jazmin (or his son's mother for that matter).... would Jazmin then be elligible to be in the line of succession?

Jazmin is ineligible because of the nature of the affair that lead to her conception - her mother was still married to another man, so she can't be legitimatized under Monegasque law.

Monegasque law does not make children of adulterous relationships ineligible to be legitimated.

Refer to the laws of legitimation here, particularly Article 226-9:

https://legimonaco.mc/code/code-civil/#wbwfCVEpb7chXLtLTS0ari

Article 226-9

La légitimation peut bénéficier à tous les enfants nés hors du mariage pourvu que, par reconnaissance volontaire ou par jugement, leur filiation ait été légalement établie à l'égard de leurs deux auteurs.

Article 226-9

Legitimation may be applied to all children born outside of marriage provided that, by voluntary recognition or by judgment, their filiation is legally established in regard to their two parents.​

This has been the law since 1986, so not a recent development. Can anyone explain why the myth that children of adulterous relationships cannot be legitimated by their parents' subsequent marriage is so widely accepted as fact?

But I think the changes were that hhildren who were born out of wedlock, could be legitimated by their parents subsequently marrying.

As far as I know it has always been the general rule of law that children born out of wedlock could and would be legitimated by their parents subsequently marrying. In the past there were certain exceptions to the rule, but these were eliminated by the Civil Code reform of 1986.

 

[kalnel]

I find myself in unfamiliar waters here. Can anyone explain to me why the Monaco succession is being argued so passionately as regards Prince Albert legal heir? I had assumed that with Albert and Charlene married and blessed with twins, an immediate heir and spare, that any quibbling about who was in the line of succession would be merely academic and not a still a cause of considerable quibbling.

When you have a 65-year-old sovereign and an 8-year-old heir — plus a mother whose problems make her an improbable regent — interest in the laws that could pertain in the future doesn’t seem odd to me.

Add to that prospective heirs whose status in the succession is unclear and at least one child born out of wedlock with an interest in a future role, and the situation seems less than certain.

 

[sophie25]

When you have a 65-year-old sovereign and an 8-year-old heir — plus a mother whose problems make her an improbable regent — interest in the laws that could pertain in the future doesn’t seem odd to me.

Add to that prospective heirs whose status in the succession is unclear and at least one child born out of wedlock with an interest in a future role, and the situation seems less than certain.

Even if Albert died tomorrow the situation isn't uncertain. I'm sure there will be a group of people already organised by Albert to take control until Jacques reaches maturity if the worst happened. Jacques is the heir and he will only not become the Sovereign if he chooses not be or if something unfortunate happens to him.

 

[kalnel]

Even if Albert died tomorrow the situation isn't uncertain. I'm sure there will be a group of people already organised by Albert to take control until Jacques reaches maturity if the worst happened. Jacques is the heir and he will only not become the Sovereign if he chooses not be or if something unfortunate happens to him.

Albert almost certainly has advisors who could help Jacques with his personal assets, but Monaco's laws determine who will run the country. Right now, it would fall to Charlene.

Beyond that, the succession is not clear. Gabriella and Caroline appear to come next, but after that, who? It isn't clear if Caroline's children or Stephanie and her children are in line.

 

[Biri]

IMHO, it's Gabriella who should be the heiress of the throne, after all she was born first.

All European countries have already renounced Salic law.

 

[Countessmeout]

When you have a 65-year-old sovereign and an 8-year-old heir — plus a mother whose problems make her an improbable regent — interest in the laws that could pertain in the future doesn’t seem odd to me.

Add to that prospective heirs whose status in the succession is unclear and at least one child born out of wedlock with an interest in a future role, and the situation seems less than certain.

65 is barely retirement age, you make him sound like he is half way in the grave. If he lives as long as his dad, 81, he has another 16 years. The twins will be done college by then.

There are also suitable regents within the family if not Charlene, if something happened to Albert in the next ten years.


Children have inherited thrones for centuries. No need to search for a new heir.Not going to choose Albert's illegitamite son as a regent for his half-brother over one of Jacque's aunts or cousins who have grown up in the royal life.

Albert almost certainly has advisors who could help Jacques with his personal assets, but Monaco's laws determine who will run the country. Right now, it would fall to Charlene.

Beyond that, the succession is not clear. Gabriella and Caroline appear to come next, but after that, who? It isn't clear if Caroline's children or Stephanie and her children are in line.

How is it 'apparent' that Gabriella and her aunt come next???

There is a clear line of succession. Monaco doesn't follow salic law, females can inherit. Yes Gabriella is second in line to the throne. Nothing apparent about it.

The line of succession beyond the twins is Clear as any other monarchy's. in 2002 changes were made to the constitution of Monaco allowing for the crown to pass to the siblings of the monarch if he has no surviving children (prior it was limited to children of monarch). So yes Caroline, her children and grandchildren would come next. Followed by Stephanie and hers.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The line of succession beyond the twins is Clear as any other monarchy's. in 2002 changes were made to the constitution of Monaco allowing for the crown to pass to the siblings of the monarch if he has no surviving children (prior it was limited to children of monarch). So yes Caroline, her children and grandchildren would come next. Followed by Stephanie and hers.

Regarding your point about clarity: I would say the common insistence that Caroline's and Stéphanie's married children are definitely still in line to the throne, in spite of the House Law clearly stating that marriages contracted without formal authorization from the Sovereign Prince cause the person who married to lose their place in line (unless they later divorce without having children), is evidence that it is not "as clear as any other monarchy's".

Compare it to the Dutch monarchy: Because the Royal House and Government clearly communicated the situation, few royal watchers seem to doubt that Friso lost his right to the throne when he married without the formal authorization from Parliament.

For those who have not read the preceding discussion, here is Article 24 of the House Law again.

Art. 24.

Sans préjudice des dispositions de l’article 21, le mariage d’un membre de la Famille Souveraine contracté sans l’autorisation du Prince Régnant emporte exclusion de l’ordre successoral, tant pour celui qui a contracté ce mariage que pour ses descendants.

Néanmoins, en cas de dissolution du mariage et en l’absence d’enfant issu de ce dernier, l’héritier qui l’a contracté recouvre sa place dans l’ordre successoral si aucune succession n’est intervenue à la date où la dissolution est devenue définitive.

L’autorisation prescrite en vertu du premier alinéa est délivrée par Décision Souveraine.


Translation:

Art. 24.

Without prejudice to the provisions of article 21, the marriage of a member of the Sovereign Family contracted without the authorization of the Reigning Prince excludes the one who contracted the marriage from the order of succession as well as his or her descendants.

However, in the case of dissolution of the marriage and in the absence of any child from it, the heir who contracted it recovers their place in the order of succession, if no succession has occurred before the date on which the dissolution became final.

The authorization according to the first paragraph is issued by Sovereign Decision.
​

 

[victor1319]

IMHO, it's Gabriella who should be the heiress of the throne, after all she was born first.

All European countries have already renounced Salic law.

Really? Liechtenstein too? I do not think so!

Anyway, the "other" European countries are more or less democracies with some well paid actors and actresses with quite long names in some castles, which have nothing to say.

That the oldest son inherits, is quite widespread among nobility - still! And Monaco, yeah, it is tiny, but in the UN and a real Royalty!

 

[Stefan]

IMHO, it's Gabriella who should be the heiress of the throne, after all she was born first.

All European countries have already renounced Salic law.

Spain has still males first.

 

[Biri]

Spain has still males first.

I am sure it will be changed if Leonor has daughter as a firstborn.

 

[kalnel]

65 is barely retirement age, you make him sound like he is half way in the grave. If he lives as long as his dad, 81, he has another 16 years. The twins will be done college by then.

There are also suitable regents within the family if not Charlene, if something happened to Albert in the next ten years.

Children have inherited thrones for centuries. No need to search for a new heir.Not going to choose Albert's illegitamite son as a regent for his half-brother over one of Jacque's aunts or cousins who have grown up in the royal life.

I haven't characterized Albert in any way, except for his age, which is a fact. I'd note that his mother, though, who also appeared to be in excellent health, died unexpectedly at age 53. Things happen.

Keep in mind that the prince of Monaco has actual political power ruling the state, unlike most European monarchs. The idea that an 18-year-old -- or even a 22-year-old fresh out of college -- would be ready to take on a job like that is laughable. It would be like becoming CEO of billion-dollar multinational company on your first day.

I don't think anyone is "searching for a new heir," but understanding what the succession laws are and how the country would handle a minor sovereign are legitimate questions. The royal house should clarify the situation.

I do wonder why you've brought up Alexandre, though. He hasn't been part of this discussion. What is your bias against him as opposed to anyone else in that family?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

IMHO, it's Gabriella who should be the heiress of the throne, after all she was born first.

I fully agree with you. A woman should not be treated as less qualified than a man to reign over the principality.

I must apologize for making an inaccurate statement in the discussion about a possible regency some months ago, when I claimed Prince Albert II had not updated the House Laws in regards to regency since 2015. It slipped by me at the time that the Prince did make a major and surprising update to the regency laws last year.

First, to review the regency rules as they were set out in 2015. Read them here:

https://journaldemonaco.gouv.mc/Jou...2015-portant-statuts-de-la-Famille-Souveraine

Under these rules, if Prince Albert II died and Jacques succeeded as Reigning Prince while still a minor (Article 4), the regency would be exercised by Princess Charlene, provided that she lived in Monaco (Article 9), had Monegasque citizenship (Article 9), and did not remarry (Article 17).

If Prince Albert II became impeded from exercising his powers (such as by severe illness) and Hereditary Prince Jacques were still a minor (Articles 7-8), the regency would also be exercised by Princess Charlene, again, as long as she lived in Monaco (Article 9), had Monegasque citizenship (Article 9), and did not remarry (Article 17).

A Regency Council would advise Princess Charlene, but she would not be required to follow its advice, only to give it a hearing (Article 12). The Regency Council would be comprised of the President of the Crown Council, the Secretary of State, the President of the Council of State, and four persons nominated by Sovereign Decision (Article 11), that is, by Prince Albert II.

Again, those were the rules which were in place, set out in the House Law, from 2015 to 2022.

 

[Countessmeout]

I haven't characterized Albert in any way, except for his age, which is a fact. I'd note that his mother, though, who also appeared to be in excellent health, died unexpectedly at age 53. Things happen.

Keep in mind that the prince of Monaco has actual political power ruling the state, unlike most European monarchs. The idea that an 18-year-old -- or even a 22-year-old fresh out of college -- would be ready to take on a job like that is laughable. It would be like becoming CEO of billion-dollar multinational company on your first day.

I don't think anyone is "searching for a new heir," but understanding what the succession laws are and how the country would handle a minor sovereign are legitimate questions. The royal house should clarify the situation.

I do wonder why you've brought up Alexandre, though. He hasn't been part of this discussion. What is your bias against him as opposed to anyone else in that family?

Yes the only reason to bring up his age is to suggest there is a concern he will die before his kid comes of age. He could be 20 and die from an accident. The age is not a matter. We're not talking Margrethe, Harald and so on.


Do you need clarity on who is heir in Spain? Netherlands? Sweden etc.? If not then why Monaco. Because there is a clear legal sign of succession. There is no ambiguity to who comes after Jacques.

I have never even mentioned Alexandre. He isn't in the line of succession so therefore I never mentioned him. How is that bias?

 

[Somebody]

I am sure it will be changed if Leonor has daughter as a firstborn.

You might recall that Felipe had a daughter as a firstborn - and still the law wasn't changed. Had Sofía turned out to be a boy, they might have tried to come up with new legislation really quickly but they waited at least until Letizia's second pregnancy to decide whether any changes were deemed necessary.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Continued from my previous post:


Prince Albert II amended the House Law's statutes on regency by a Sovereign Ordinance of July 29, 2022. Read it here:

https://journaldemonaco.gouv.mc/Jou...ce-Souveraine-n-5.344-du-2-juin-2015-modifiee

Under the new regency rules, if Prince Albert II died and Jacques succeeded as Reigning Prince while still a minor (Article 4), the regency would be exercised by a Regency Council. This Regency Council would be comprised of the President of the Crown Council, the Secretary of State, the President of the Council of State, and four persons nominated by Sovereign Decision, that is, by Prince Albert II (Article 11).

If Prince Albert II became impeded from exercising his powers (such as by severe illness) and Hereditary Prince Jacques were still a minor (Articles 7-8), the regency would also be exercised by the Regency Council. However, in this scenario, the Regency Council would - in addition to the aforementioned seven people - also include and be presided over by Princess Charlene, as long as she was not legally or factually separated from Prince Albert II (Article 10).

In any event, no more than two persons without Monegasque citizenship may serve on the Regency Council (Article 11).


Concerning the four seats on the Regency Council to be filled by Sovereign Decision, Prince Albert II already made his four nominations to the Regency Council in a separate ordinance on January 26, 2022. None of his nominees are family members.

In addition to these modifications to the laws of regency, the same Sovereign Ordinance of July 29, 2022 promulgated a Code of Procedure for the Regency Council. The Code of Procedure is extremely detailed; for example, it even regulates the dates and times that must be recorded in each memorandum of a council meeting.



I referred to these changes as surprising because they went against not only Monegasque tradition, but the current norms of other monarchies in Europe. Throughout the centuries of Grimaldi rule over Monaco, regencies have always (to the best of my knowledge) been exercised by relatives of the monarch. And while some other monarchies in Europe allow the government or parliament to appoint anyone as a regent, royal or not, no other monarchy in Europe has a regency law which automatically bypasses family members in favor of bureaucrats.

From now on, if Prince Albert II dies while Hereditary Prince Jacques is under 18, Monaco will be governed by a council made up of government and court officials, while the prince's mother and aunt(s) will be sidelined from any ruling role. That would be a novel situation.

Prince Albert II's new rule that if the Reigning Prince(ss) and their spouse are legally or factually separated, the spouse loses the right to serve on the Regency Council for their spouse if and when their spouse is impeded, is also unusual. Other European monarchies may demote a consort upon divorce, or more rarely upon legal separation, but under the new Monaco rule, even a de facto separation without any legal separation will affect the spouse's rights.


A question for the Monegasque princely family experts here: Prince Albert signed these amendments, as said, on July 29, 2022. Did anything happen in the period leading up to that date which might have prompted these reforms?

 

[Somebody]

Prince Albert II's new rule that if the Reigning Prince(ss) and their spouse are legally or factually separated, the spouse loses the right to serve on the Regency Council for their spouse if and when their spouse is impeded, is also unusual. Other European monarchies may demote a consort upon divorce, or more rarely upon legal separation, but under the new Monaco rule, even a de facto separation without any legal separation will affect the spouse's rights.

A question for the Monegasque princely family experts here: Prince Albert signed these amendments, as said, on July 29, 2022. Did anything happen in the period leading up to that date which might have prompted these reforms?

This reform took place in the year after Charlene was in South Africa and couldn't return home (for over 6 months) and after returning home had to leave within days as she couldn't face life at home, so it seems that Albert concluded that his wife was not up to the task of becoming a regent, so he made other provisions.

And some might even argue that Albert and Charlene were 'factually' separated at that time - which could be one of the reasons for this regulation to be included.

 

[Prinsara]

From now on, if Prince Albert II dies while Hereditary Prince Jacques is under 18, Monaco will be governed by a council made up of government and court officials, while the prince's mother and aunt(s) will be sidelined from any ruling role. That would be a novel situation.

That's exactly what I expected of Albert, given it's fairly clearly in neither Charlene's nor Monaco's (nor the twins', for that matter) interest to impose a Regency on her.

I'm surprised that it's in codified law and not more widely-known here.

 

[Granada]

Looks like a tempest in a teapot, for us, anyway.

I doubt The Monaco Royal Family IS in the least bit concerned. Albert is 65, Jacques is his Heir and and Gabriella "the Spare". That IS the line of Succession. Then Caroline's Children. Seems pretty cut and dried. Totally unambiguous.

With measures in place, in case of a horrible accident or illness that Albert would unfortunately die from. As Monarchies, Companies-Corporations and Wealthy Families do. Succession. Who leads ? Whether The CEO dies OR a Monarch, but with the case of a under age Heir, ALL contingencies are in place. Locked in place.

Charlene doesn't strike me as someone interested in Court Power Plays anyway. I think She is concerned *mostly* as a Mom, inspite or because of her health issues.
I could sort of liken it to two of my favorite First Ladies. Jackie Kennedy and Michelle Obama. Neither one was interested in their own WH power base. It just wasn't them.
Other First Ladies, Eleanor Roosevelt and Hilary Clinton had a more political bent. The nuts and bolts REALLY interested them. Change and policy ISSUES were a great passion of both.

So .....Albert has two elder children. Unfortunately, they are OUT. Not in the line of Succession. Seemingly, Albert has in recent years moved to include them in Monaco Public Events, which is nice. And they have some sort of relationship with the Twins. How much ? I have no idea.

In any case, life usually isn't fair. For many harsh, Many worldwide have it ROUGH.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

This reform took place in the year after Charlene was in South Africa and couldn't return home (for over 6 months) and after returning home had to leave within days as she couldn't face life at home, so it seems that Albert concluded that his wife was not up to the task of becoming a regent, so he made other provisions.

And some might even argue that Albert and Charlene were 'factually' separated at that time - which could be one of the reasons for this regulation to be included.

That's exactly what I expected of Albert, given it's fairly clearly in neither Charlene's nor Monaco's (nor the twins', for that matter) interest to impose a Regency on her.

I wonder why Prince Albert II decided on such a permanent solution (he could have simply added a rule that the regent could be temporarily substituted while ill), and one which took the radical step of excluding not only his wife, but Caroline and all members of his family (in line to the throne or not), from the regency.

I'm surprised that it's in codified law and not more widely-known here.

I agree!

I have never even mentioned Alexandre. He isn't in the line of succession so therefore I never mentioned him.

I believe the original poster referred to your comment "Not going to choose Albert's illegitamite son as a regent for his half-brother over one of Jacque's aunts or cousins who have grown up in the royal life."

Then Caroline's Children. Seems pretty cut and dried. Totally unambiguous.

Could you please share the "cut and dried, totally unambiguous" evidence that Princess Caroline's married children asked and received consent under Article 24 of the House Law to conserve their succession rights after marriage?

 

[Prinsara]

I wonder why Prince Albert II decided on such a permanent solution (he could have simply added a rule that the regent could be temporarily substituted while ill), and one which took the radical step of excluding not only his wife, but Caroline and all members of his family (in line to the throne or not), from the regency.

There's a lot of difficulty and pitfalls when it comes to defining "ill", and well, and "temporary".

Perhaps it just makes sense. Dedicated as Caroline is, there's never been much suggesting she actually wants to do Albert's job.

Aside from issues of nepotism and bias, you can also have future family members who aren't suited for the job, for whatever reason. The change at least ensures that presumably there will be more than one person whose only interest in a Council will be Monaco (and can be more easily replaced if not).

 

[MARG]

I am sure it will be changed if Leonor has daughter as a firstborn.

Yes, the law of succession in Spain may change from male preference primogeniture to absolute primogeniture in line with most other European monarchies.

As to the succession in Monaco, it looks like any real change will not come until Prince Jacques ascends to the throne. As to the change in regency, I believe that as far as Albert is concerned, Charlene is his mother and will continue to raise him, but the real body of the throne would be beyond her and so he has appointed those whom he believes will maintain the integrity of the throne and not unduly influence a young prince.

Thankfully, I believe the prolonged absence of Princess Charlene has highlighted the gulf between his wife and his sister now should the worst come to the worst, an appointed Regent from within the family would be deleterious to both the family and the principality. This way, both can continue to do what they do best, no harm no foul.

 

[Stefan]

I am sure it will be changed if Leonor has daughter as a firstborn.

That has been said since Leonor's birth but nothing has been done so far.

 

[JR76]

That has been said since Leonor's birth but nothing has been done so far.

The Spanish politicians have more pressing issues to deal with than changing the Order of Succession. As has been said here before starting to change the constitution might be a can of worms that nobody who believes in the integrity of the Spanish state wants to open.

 

[iceflower]

Let us please stay on topic of this thread. Thank you!

 

[Granada]

Tatiana Marie.
I stand by my post. The Line Of Succession is clear. Crystal to me anyway. Jacque and Gabriella. Then God forbid, if something happens, Caroline and and Family.
That's it. And if you think it would be different otherwise, well that's nice, but not happening. Do you really think that would fly with the People of Monaco either ? That Jazmin Grace Grimaldi would be the future Ruler, if something happened to The Twins ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Tatiana Marie.
I stand by my post. The Line Of Succession is clear. Crystal to me anyway. Jacque and Gabriella. Then God forbid, if something happens, Caroline and and Family.
That's it. And if you think it would be different otherwise, well that's nice, but not happening. Do you really think that would fly with the People of Monaco either ? That Jazmin Grace Grimaldi would be the future Ruler, if something happened to The Twins ?

As you know, absolutely nothing in my posts suggested that Caroline was not in the line of succession (she is) or that Jazmin could be the future ruler (she is not in the line of succession, and her father has shown no interest in changing this).

I stand by my posts as well. You may be "crystal clear", but so are the laws of Monaco (which I quoted in previous posts), and it is the laws of Monaco which establish the line of succession.

Perhaps I can ask the same question you posed: "Do you really think it would fly" with Prince Albert II, the sovereign family, the government, and the people of Monaco for the House Laws to be treated as disposable and Pierre Casiraghi to become ruler against both his and Prince Albert II's wishes?

 

[Granada]

Tatiana Maria, I'm confused. I honestly don't know where this is going.
For argument sake in your thinking, if something, God Forbid happened to Jacques and Gabriella, who would be the next Heir ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Tatiana Maria, I'm confused. I honestly don't know where this is going.
For argument sake in your thinking, if something, God Forbid happened to Jacques and Gabriella, who would be the next Heir ?

Princess Caroline.

 

[Granada]

Tatiana Maria, I mean AFTER Princess Caroline, who will be 67 in January.

In an abstract future.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Tatiana Maria, I'm confused. I honestly don't know where this is going.
For argument sake in your thinking, if something, God Forbid happened to Jacques and Gabriella, who would be the next Heir ?

Tatiana Maria, I mean AFTER Princess Caroline, who will be 67 in January.

In an abstract future.

I am also quite confused as to where this is going. To reiterate, this is the comment you made at which my original question was directed:

Then Caroline's Children. Seems pretty cut and dried. Totally unambiguous.

So, unless I have misunderstood your post, it was you who said it was "totally unambiguous" who would be the next heir after Caroline.

Therefore, for the sake of preventing further confusion, could you answer your own question about who, in your thinking, would be the "cut and dried" new heir if Jacques, Gabriella, and Caroline were all to die at this moment?