Monaco's succession issues


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Mmm I still think there sould someone more apt and woth more experience though
 
Marty91charmed said:
Mmm I still think there sould someone more apt and woth more experience though
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Usually such a regent(ess) is helped by a council, which will also guard the interests of the underaged Prince Jacques, so that the Regentess does not do actions which are infringing the rights of her son and daughter. The daily work in the administration will -as always- be done by the gouvernement princier. No problem.

The young and unexperienced German Princess Emma von Waldeck und Pyrmont turned out to become an exellent Regentess for her underaged daughter, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands. The young and unexperienced German Countess Gloria von Schönburg-Glauchau (a.k.a. as "the Punk Princess") turned out to become an excellent Regentess for her underaged son, Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis. Both ladies were helped by an excellent board of advisers and both were able to leave their daughter resp. son a smooth working "family business".

:flowers:
 
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I found this ordonnance signed by Prince Albert on juni 2th 2015.


It stated that if in case of the death or the empechement of the prince sovereign, it would be the prince heridetary who would be the next prince sovereign if he is major , if he is minoe, it would the wife of the former prince sovereign , the mother of the hereditary prince.
There is also an another article who said that the wife of the sovereign receives the monegash nationality the day of her wedding with the prince sovereign.


N° 8228 du VENDREDI 5 JUIN 2015 * Ordonnance Souveraine n° 5.344 du 2 juin 2015 portant statuts de la Famille Souv


In this case nox, it would be the princess Charlene.


I pray that P charlene would never be in this sad case.
 
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You are right, melina p, according to this ordinance, if P Albert should pass away before P Jacques is of a legal age, P Charlene will become the Regent. But I really do pray that it won't be necessary and that both P Albert and P Charlene will live long enough to see their children grow up and become responsible adults. But it also shows how much confidence the Prince has in his wife to make this stipulation.


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:previous: I totally agree. To have a happy life with their twins but must provide everything.
 
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It is a similar settlement as what was done in the Netherlands. In the Regency Act 2013, in case of death of King Willem-Alexander and the new Sovereign is still a minor:
- Queen Máxima will be Regentess

In case both King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima are dead and the new Sovereign is still a minor:
- Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands will be Regent

In the Netherlands the interests of the minor Sovereign will be guarded by a Board of Trustees. This means that the Regentess or the Regent do not have "free hand". She (or he) can not do acts (like selling properties, jewels, whatever) which are not in the interests of the minor Sovereign. I think there will be a similar provision in Monaco. Princess Charlène, the Regentess for Prince Jacques, can not sell the Château de Marchais in Picardie, or give the jewels away to her South-African family, or distribute the art collections to the Casiraghis. Such a board will step on the brakes and try to defend the interests of the minor Prince. That is very important.
 
Ofcourse hopefully this will not have to be used, but I'm a bit surprised in a way that P.Caroline, who I thought was practically as experienced as P.Albert, has no role here

Can't help but feel that her role has changed even more than I thought after the twins were born..
 
Lee-Z said:
Ofcourse hopefully this will not have to be used, but I'm a bit surprised in a way that P.Caroline, who I thought was practically as experienced as P.Albert, has no role here

Can't help but feel that her role has changed even more than I thought after the twins were born..
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I find it quite normal. I prefer to be the mother of the heir of that aunt or anyone else. On the other hand I think that strengthens thereby its position Charlene. Also for Caroline before the birth of twins she was the heir now is not.
 
Has there ever been a Regency in Monaco before?
 
eya said:
On the other hand I think that strengthens thereby its position Charlene. Also for Caroline before the birth of twins she was the heir now is not.
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Yes, I think that's exactly what it does: strenghten the position of P.Charlene and lessen the position of P.Caroline
But when I compare the experience of both ladies, that did surprise me a bit...

but again: let's hope that P.Albert will be fit and healthy until a very old age and he will have plenty of time to teach P.Jacques well for his new role
 
Of course Princess Charlène is a foreigner with only a basic knowledge of French language (no way that she can understand difficult juridical French used in Acts, Decrees or official documents) but such a Regent or Regentess (like the Prince) has a whole machinery of state supporting them.

When the Fürst von Thurn und Taxis died, leaving the enormous assets of his House in hands of his minor son, hus widow Princess Gloria, "the Punk Princess", became the Regentess for the minor Fürst, her son Prince Albert. Supported with an oustanding Board of Trustees, the young widow managed to keep the assets for her son, whom inherited a very good and efficient managed estate, thanks to his mother. Gloria had not so much more than the traditional upbringing on boarding schools. Like Charlène, a South African sportswoman in essence, she was a "newbie" in affairs. So a good board is essential.

An Ard Ri said:
Has there ever been a Regency in Monaco before?
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A sort of. In 1841 Prince Florestan of Monaco suddenly had to succeed his brother Prince Honoré IV who died without issue. As this Prince had no any education (and no interest) he factually left the principality in hands of his spouse Princess Marie Caroline de Monaco née Gibert de Lametz. This lady was no formal Regentess but in daily life held the reins of state. She was nicknamed "la princesse vissionaire" and left a prosperous principality to her son Prince Charles III, who was well-prepared by his mother.

:flowers:
 
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Tatiana Maria said:
Princess Charlene would be the regent under the Monegasque house law.

Google translation: “During the minority of the Prince, the regency is exercised by the late Prince’s wife who has the child's custody or, failing that, the nearest major heir in the order of succession.”
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It seems to me that Albert has complete confidence in the ability of his wife to look after the both their children and his Principality. It is a very prudent move and just like making a will, only this part is public.
 
Charlene is only 37 way younger than Albert or his sisters. She would able be fill in until her son came of age.

There are probably several monarchies with young children as the heir that puts the spouse as regent. Isn't Maxima the regent in case of W-A dying with underage heir? The UK passed a law that made Philip the regent in case of Elizabeth dying before Charles was 18 skipping Margaret who it should have been per the earlier regency act.


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Maybe my view is is too naive or ingnorant, but I have the strong feeling that, should a case or regency presents itself, Charlene would be regent "on the facade", attending balls, galas, cutitng ribbons etc. I think that behind the scenes, it would be Caroline to attend meetings, going to abroad journeys, discussing econimacal and environment topics etc... Just my hunch. In short, Charlene would perform duties expected from a princess, while Caroline would manage the more complex bussiness-like affairs.
 
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Caroline would have no work , nobody else is noticed in the articles of this ordonnance which are part of the constitution.
the constitution says clearly the 'work of the regent, her worl would be big, she would reign in the name of the hereditary prince, she would be responsable to the Council of the crown she would sign decrees in the name of the hereditary prince and nobody else is moticed..
The constituttion of a country must notice all the corcerning persons in the articles of this constitution because there could be a conflict between two parts and the constitution must say who is right . also there are not persons working in the shadow, they must be noticed.
As prince sovereign, If Albert would have wanted that her sister would do something , he had to notice clearly in the articles of the ordonnace, he did not do itt, his ordonnace is saying that the wife of the sovereign would be regent in case of the death or the empechement of the sovereign, nobody else.
I understand that you are desappointed that Caroline would not play a role in this sad case but Charlene is the mother of the hereditary prince and the spare and her role is now more important that Caroline in the constitution.


With this ordonnace , there is new articles which will be noticed in the constitution,
in case of a multiple births, the first child who will born will be the hereditary prince in the male primogeniture.

I pray that Charlene and the children would never be in this sad case.
 
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Presumably there would be a whole collection of "official" people supporting in the background.

As for Caroline, she's older than Albert, so it makes no sense to me that she would be designated regent. I know there is a school of thought that she is gnashing her teeth at "loss of power/status/importance" - personally, I think she seems quite happy with life as it is.
 
Marty91charmed said:
Maybe my view is is too naive or ingnorant, but I have the strong feeling that, should a case or regency presents itself, Charlene would be regent "on the facade", attending balls, galas, cutitng ribbons etc. I think that behind the scenes, it would be Caroline to attend meetings, going to abroad journeys, discussing econimacal and environment topics etc... Just my hunch. In short, Charlene would perform duties expected from a princess, while Caroline would manage the more complex bussiness-like affairs.
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I suspect the exact same thing. Caroline is brilliant and very much respected in Monaco. Princess Charlene is loved and respected too, especially now that she is the mother of the twins. But Charlene's basic shyness, her seeming resistance to completely embracing the idea of being Monegasque(she seems to identify as South African to this day. I notice that on National Day I have never once seen her attempt to sing the Monaco Anthem!:ohmy:) and most of all her apparent difficulty with the French language gives the practical edge to Princess Caroline as the de facto Regent, while Charlene is Regent in name.

But like everyone else, I hope the day will never come when we will see such a scenario in the first place.:sad:
 
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The constitution is Clear, in case of a death or the empechement of the prince sovereign if the hereditart prince is minor
It would be the wife of the prince ,mother of the prince who would rule for the hereditary prince with all the compétences of the prince sovereign and in the name of the hereditary prince.
If the wife of the prince is dead, it would be the the person who is the closest to the hereditary prince in the line of sucession
if there is no regent among the family, it would be the council of the crown who will be the regent.






The constitution is clear, and with the ordonnance signed by the prince Albert, in case of the death or the empechement of the prince sovereign, if the prince hereditary prince is minor, the regent will be the wife of the prince sovereign, the mother of the prince with all the compétences of the prince sovereign, signatures of the desrees , the agreement and so, and nobody else. Princess Caroline will not be playing a role , she is not noticed as parent of the prince in the ordonnace nor in the constitution.
A constitution must be followed at the words it would be princess Charlene and she would be helped by a staff and Caroline or his chidren will have no roles being not noticed in the constitution. and the Council of the crown is designed to make follow the constitution.
I understand you are desappointed , you think that princess Caroline must be designed to be in facto the regent and Charlene would be the regent in the name, it is not like this what you think, the constutution designed the wife of the prince in case of this sad case and any body else .
Princess Charlene is monegash, she prooves at each event thet she is part of the people of Monaco, as the last week end where she was wearing the colors of the flags of Monaco, We never saw prince Rainier singing the anthem of Monaco nor the princess Grace. princess Stephanie never sings the anthem of Monaco. Princess Charene was showing that she was Learning the french language in doing the speech in french during the festivities of the 10 year of reign of Albert, she will do other speechs in french and she will improove she is learinig the rules of the country as she said it in an interview, she is not an idiot person and the prince Albert is judging that she would be a good regent with all the compétences that the constitution is giving her with this ordonnance the prince is designing her and he ddi not design other person .
 
I am sure this is a decision that was taken after much discussion involving all the relevant persons. P Albert must be convinced that his wife will be up to the task, should it be necessary. I believe P Caroline and P Stephanie will give advice in an informal way, but the Council will assist in a formal manner. I also get the impression P Caroline is content to be a doting grandmother and focus her energy on the causes that are close to her heart.

But once again, may this never be necessary!

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C4A, The prince Albert is convinced that her wife will be up to thie task, I think perhaps there will be discussion involoing lawyers, members of the state Council, the members of the Council of the crown and with the minister of the state. but I doubt he had discussions with her sisters, it does not concern them, he surely said what was his will. He is the head of the family and as the constitution is saying, he has a lot of power beeing the prince.
Charlene would be the regent because it is noticed in the ordonnance and in the constitution, there is no co regency notified in the constitution.
It is not new , the constitution of 1962 designed as regente, princess Grace in this constitution with all the powers that the prince has. in 1959, Princess Antoinette wanted to chase from the throne her brother even married with heirs to put her son Christian on the throne and she would be regente to the majority of Christian , she was helped with her future husband Mr Rey, she did not suceed, also prince Rainier made a contitution where it would never happen this case where a prince is chased from the throne by any person, family or somebody else. in the constitution of 2002, there was still an article saying if case of the death or empechement of the prince sovereign, the regente would be the wife of the prince sovereign.
I think Albert waited for the birth of the heirs to do again an ordonnance saying again that the regent would be the wife of the sovereign and mother of the hereditary prince. and only his wife and no co regency.
 
Marty91charmed said:
Maybe my view is is too naive or ingnorant, but I have the strong feeling that, should a case or regency presents itself, Charlene would be regent "on the facade", attending balls, galas, cutitng ribbons etc. I think that behind the scenes, it would be Caroline to attend meetings, going to abroad journeys, discussing econimacal and environment topics etc... Just my hunch. In short, Charlene would perform duties expected from a princess, while Caroline would manage the more complex bussiness-like affairs.
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I totally agree with you. P. Charlene doesn´t seem to have neither the knowledge, nor the experience nor the foreign prestige ( and personally i don't think she has no interesset whatsoever in these matters either... ) to take the reins of a state. On the other hand P. Caroline, because of her cultural and social work within Monaco and abroad seems to me a much more suitable and logical choice foir a regent in case of need... :whistling:
 
But it will be the wife of the prince sovereign , princess charlene who will be regent and not anybody else; not Caroline nor her children. Prince Albert notified it in AN OFFICIAL ORDONNANCE and it is in the constitution. nobody can contest the constitution of a country, it will be the princess Charlene You are pleased or not.

Official people know the constitution and they know that in case of the death of the prince or the empechement , it will be the wife of the sovereign who will be the regent and there will be no contest against the constitution , they like Prncess caroline but they love P Charlene and they will support the princess charlene as mother of the hereditary prince, they will not do a revolution , this regency will not last a long time , the prince will be major at 18 and he will become the new prince sovereign.but I pray that it does not happen and that Prince Albert could learn all the laws to the prince Jacques.
 
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Moonmaiden23 said:
I suspect the exact same thing. Caroline is brilliant and very much respected in Monaco. Princess Charlene is loved and respected too, especially now that she is the mother of the twins. But Charlene's basic shyness, her seeming resistance to completely embracing the idea of being Monegasque(she seems to identify as South African to this day. I notice that on National Day I have never once seen her attempt to sing the Monaco Anthem!:ohmy:) and most of all her apparent difficulty with the French language gives the practical edge to Princess Caroline as the de facto Regent, while Charlene is Regent in name.

But like everyone else, I hope the day will never come when we will see such a scenario in the first place.:sad:
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lazuli said:
I totally agree with you. P. Charlene doesn´t seem to have neither the knowledge, nor the experience nor the foreign prestige ( and personally i don't think she has no interesset whatsoever in these matters either... ) to take the reins of a state. On the other hand P. Caroline, because of her cultural and social work within Monaco and abroad seems to me a much more suitable and logical choice foir a regent in case of need... :whistling:
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Exactly my thoughts too! I think Charlene would be a good ambassor for daily engagements with children, her foundation, the balls, galas etc but not only she doesn't have the basic education for business matters but she dooesn't even speak the language. How could she cope with that? As a regent she would be expected, just for instance, to give long and complicated speeches and she certainly would talk during some meetings with politicians or important head of states...

I think that for those fields Caroline, or better, on of her sons (Andrea most likely) would maybe train her behind the scenes. She would be the regent, but the "hard work" for her training and help would be done behind the scenes. And not necessary the public would know about that. JMO.

Charlene is a good princess consort and sometimes she tries to do her best, but I am afraid to say that she would be totally unsuitable for a regency...

Anyway, I hope this event is never going to happen, and that Jacques will reign when his time comes. But, given Albert's age, this situation is not totally ruled out and thinking about it is not as much ridiculous as it might sound. Just my 2 cents.:flowers:
 
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Marty91charmed said:
Exactly my thoughts too! I think Charlene would be a good ambassor for daily engagements with children, her foundation, the balls, galas etc but not only she doesn't have the basic education for business matters but she dooesn't even speak the language. How could she cope with that? As a regent she would be expected, just for instance, to give long and complicated speeches and she certainly would talk during some meetings with politicians or important head of states...

I think that for those fields Caroline, or better, on of her sons (Andrea most likely) would maybe train her behind the scenes. She would be the regent, but the "hard work" for her training and help would be done behind the scenes. And not necessary the public would know about that. JMO.

Charlene is a good princess consort and sometimes she tries to do her best, but I am afraid to say that she would be totally unsuitable for a regency...

Anyway, I hope this event is never going to happen, and that Jacques will reign when his time comes. But, given Albert's age, this situation is not totally ruled out and thinking about it is not as much ridiculous as it might sound. Just my 2 cents.:flowers:
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As has been said over and over and over, Charlene will be regent. So, why not assume that this preparation is already taking place?
 
casualfan said:
As has been said over and over and over, Charlene will be regent. So, why not assume that this preparation is already taking place?
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i've never said that the preparation is not under way, but as things stand, at the moment, she is not prepared IMO.
Yes, she would be regent (officially). I just gave my opinion on the matter, that's all:flowers:
 
All leaders like Albert of course imagine they have people who support them. The same will happen with the Charlene. I do not think that needs Carolina or especially Andrea :)ohmy:).
 
The choice is done, Charlene would be the regent in case of the death of the prince and without persons in the shadow, there will not be a co regency with Caroline and sons Casiraghi . the constituttion is describing her work as regent in public and in privat. she will depend of the crown council and will be responsable before this Council and nobody else. She will have the work of a prince sovereign , it is all.
Do you know that a constitution is a very official documentary where all the articles are written ?,, the articles are saying that in case of a death or the empechement of the prince sovereign, the regent will be the wife of the prince and nobody else in co regency with Charlene , No Caroline and no sons Casiraghi. all must be done in public, no arrangements in the shadow, all must be written in the constitution and the crown Council is looking after.this
You are desappointed but you are dreaming all awake . The constitution is saying that Charlene will be a regent in case of a very sad event and without co regent with her
We know that you think that Charlene is not prepared but Albert is thinking the countrary and he wants that Charlene will be the regent if Jacques is a minor, he did not want a person working with Charlene in co regency , it would be notified in the constitution, He had to do it. and he did not do it. He is the one person who is thinking that Charlene will be able to do the regancy in waiting that the hereditary prince will be major.


The choice is done with this ordonnance remembering the articles of the constitution.and it is official.
It is your opinion but the palace did the choice of the wife of the prince sovereign without co regency and what you will say , it will not change nothing.










.


.
 
Marty91charmed said:
Exactly my thoughts too! I think Charlene would be a good ambassor for daily engagements with children, her foundation, the balls, galas etc but not only she doesn't have the basic education for business matters but she dooesn't even speak the language. How could she cope with that? As a regent she would be expected, just for instance, to give long and complicated speeches and she certainly would talk during some meetings with politicians or important head of states...

I think that for those fields Caroline, or better, on of her sons (Andrea most likely) would maybe train her behind the scenes. She would be the regent, but the "hard work" for her training and help would be done behind the scenes. And not necessary the public would know about that. JMO.

Charlene is a good princess consort and sometimes she tries to do her best, but I am afraid to say that she would be totally unsuitable for a regency...

Anyway, I hope this event is never going to happen, and that Jacques will reign when his time comes. But, given Albert's age, this situation is not totally ruled out and thinking about it is not as much ridiculous as it might sound. Just my 2 cents.:flowers:
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Albert is not an old man, he is only middle aged.;) If he lives as long as his father Rainier III(86 years old) Jacques will be about 30 years old when he comes to the Throne, more than old enough to rule.

My hope and prayer is that a Regency will not be needed.
 
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