Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Goodness gracious. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The royal families of Europe spoke three main languages, French, German and English, accept Austrians who liked Italian or the Scandinavians so add their languages to their own mix. So what if Alexandra only wrote in English? This doesn't mean she didn't speak French, which most of you say she did but not fluently. This doesn't mean she didn't speak German, which she did since she was the daughter of a German Duke of Hesse.

Just because Alix's father was a German duke does NOT mean Alix spoke German fluently...Alix was raised in England for awhile and she usually used English. Her father doesn't represent what language Alix spoke. Alexandra didn't live in Germany for a long time. She lived in another country where there is another langauge mainly spoken. She didn't like Germany and didn't want to speak the language. Since, the Russians was enemies with the Germans the Russian imperial family (Nicholas and Alexandra) would NOT speak German!

German is a guttural language and it takes great effort to speak it and all my relatives prefer using English, as well. Those who stopped using it after their parents, who spoke nothing but German in their home, passed away, have forgotten most of their German. However, if forced to speak it, again, I'm sure most of them would pick it back up and be able to speak it somewhat or fluently.

Goodness Gracious! Please get back on-topic we are not talking about your relatives. The imperial family guttering German in private is hearsay that hasn't been proven to be true. We are talking about the languages that Alix spoke. You don't know if that was the same for the imperial family. Just because it happened with your family.

What is apparent to me AnastasiaEvidence is your lack of understanding of the royality behind closed doors before WWI. When speaking to each other they didn't speak a complete sentence in just one language.

We are only talking about the Romanov royal family. NOT all the other royalty. There is no evidence that they were talking behind closed doors. This seems very unlikely and how would you know if you weren't exactly there speaking to Alexandra or the family? You didn't personally know the imperial family. This hasn't been mentioned at all with the Imperial family.

They plucked words out of English or German or French or whatever language so one sentence might contain all three languages. Our family use to joke: When we talked politics it was in English. When we made love we spoke in French. When cursing our horse we cursed in German. We spoke Russian to our maids, cooks and stable boys. Of course, saying this might left some eyebrows but before WWI there was a huge social order and people knew what rung of the social ladder they were born. Young people here in the USA today can't even imagine the hard lines drawn between these old social classes. Sure, you've seen some of it in the Jane Austin movies or other PBS specials but until you've actually experienced it, you can't fully understand it.

This doesn't even seem possible, not for the Imperial family. If they were plucking words out of German, I'm quite sure Alexandra would have used that language in her diaries, and letters but, she didn't. She didn't even speak German to Nicholas, or her children as much as English. She used the language that she mainly wrote in. If Alix knew German fluently, then she would have perfered to use that language and not English. The fact that Alix perfered to write in English, instead of German to her cousins,sisters and brother is proof she didn't use German. Alix didn't spend all her life living in Germany.

wasnt jane austin movies set in the early 1800

Yes, Jane Austin's movies were set in the early 1800's. But, that is way way off-topic. Please get back on-topic to the discussion of the languages Alix and Nicholas spoke.

 

[Russophile]

This doesn't even seem possible, not for the Imperial family. If they were plucking words out of German, I'm quite sure Alexandra would have used that language in her diaries, and letters but, she didn't. She didn't even speak German to Nicholas, or her children as much as English.

This is very possible. I have studied French, German, Italian, Spanish and English. When I was in Italy sometimes I answered in Italian and Spanish. Sometimes it was French. Those things just popped out of my mouth without my thinking and I believe that that is what Bear means and I say it's entirely possible for it to happen.

 

[kell]

plucking words is differant then speaking words n mixing up what your using i belive honestly the literature for alix says she mainly spoke english and had a deep seated hatred for all things german if bear is doubting the texts and the litature on the alix we can then arguee and russ if you ever seen a otto von habsburg interveiw you know the training the royals got in any launage they dont mix it up to pluck words out of their mouths the man knew more hungrain then i thought humanly possible

 

[Russophile]

No, she didn't hate German until WWI.
Alexandra, Page 11 by Carolly Erickson:
"Though she showed only average ability in French, her English was fluent (albeit spoken with a strong German accent) and she excelled at the ladylike art of needlework.

Page 13 QV's opinion of Ella and Serge's upcoming nuptials:
"It was common knowledge, the Queen said, that marriages between Russians and Germans were doomed."

They were German and thought themselves thus until they married into the Russian Family then considered themselves Russians. Lili Dehn writes that it was fashionable to have a German nurse/nanny in St. Petersburg. Then it was fashionable to have an English one. And English was spoken at the court.
German fell out of favor (at the Russian Court the anti-German came from Nicholas Nicholaivitch, see "Memoirs of the Crwon Prince of Germany" between 66-70) and everybody switched to another language. But she (Alix) spoke it.

 

[kell]

auctually she did hate germany before ww1 her fathers duchy was aborbed after the franco prussain war check the dairies and comments she said about the kaiser for a example but i m not gonna arguee this its frankly pointless because she grew up in england after her mothers death whom died of yellow fever she was literaly trice crused and this is disrepecting her in more ways then some

 

[Warren]

The Electorate of Hesse-Cassel was annexed by Prussia in 1866; Hesse-Darmstadt retained its status as a Grand Duchy.
Alix was a Hesse-Darmstadt. Her father became Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine in 1877, five years after she was born.

 

[AGRBear]

When any of you get around to having a lengthy conversation with a well educated and multi-language speaking royal, then come back here and tell me if I'm wrong.

A few of you seem to find this need to continue your false ideas that anyone German born in a German state didn't speak German along with other languages from infancy until they left their country and/or their communities. Do you think it makes Alexandra less German because she spoke and wrote English as a teenager and as an adult? It doesn't.

I know Germans and the German-Russian characters in their various social levels as it was at the turn of the 20th century. My background gives me first hand knowledge of Germans and German-Russians.

I haven't denied the fact that Alexandra didn't write German or speak German once she was living with Queen Victoria at such a young age and then wedded to Nicky, the future Nicholas II.

Nor do I deny the facts that the British royal family pushed away their German language and background into a dark dark corner where they hoped it would be forgotten when fighting Germany in WWI and WWII.

Surly you remember reading that the Russian masses believed Alexandra was a German agent and their enemy? Why? Could it have been because she was German born and bred?

And, why did I used Jane Austin as a example? Most young people have seen very little of German royality unless it has to do with Kaiser Wilhelm II, Hitler and the Third Reich. Have any of you read a book or seen a movie or a tv special that didn't make the Germans look like evil Nazis who's aim in life, or so it appears, was that of gunning down the innocent? Since the majority of you haven't, I used Jane Austin's stories, which have been made into movies which show some of the social class differences which existed in the 1800s to WWI, better known at that time as THE GREAT WAR. And that is why I used her stories as an example.

Before WWI, the royal family lineage in Europe and Russia was dominated by those who were German. Have any of you ever ready the book Hessian Tapestry?

What some of you need to do is take up a few books that deal with the German history. There was life before Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. There was life before the German states became part of a country known by most of you as Germany.

Queen Victoria, her husband, Albert, and their children, one of which was Alexandra's mother, did speak German among themselves and behind closed doors. After Albert died, German was no longer used to the degree that it was before his death in 1861.

I've really nothing more to add, accept to suggest you talk to people who are more in tune with the old establishment when royal families ruled and/or were a part of the social classes in Europe, Russia and the rest of the world.

AGRBear

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

This is very possible. I have studied French, German, Italian, Spanish and English. When I was in Italy sometimes I answered in Italian and Spanish. Sometimes it was French. Those things just popped out of my mouth without my thinking and I believe that that is what Bear means and I say it's entirely possible for it to happen.

I don't agree with you at all. But, that didn't happen with the Imperial family. You don't have evidence of this actually occuring with the Imperial family. Unless you can provide proof of the imperial family actual speaking languages this way, that can not be proven.

No, she didn't hate German until WWI.

Alexandra disliked Germany ever since the Coronation of 1896.

Alexandra, Page 11 by Carolly Erickson:
"Though she showed only average ability in French, her English was fluent (albeit spoken with a strong German accent) and she excelled at the ladylike art of needlework.

Naturally, she spoke Russian with a strong English accent, and any European who learned English spoke with an English accent, as Nicholas did.

Alix had a English accent, NOT a German accent. Like I've said just because Alix was German-born does NOT mean German was the language she spoke fluently.English was Alix's natural language rather than German. She even spoke it with her brother most of the time, who was also completely fluent in it.

They were German and thought themselves thus until they married into the Russian Family then considered themselves Russians.

Some sources:
Alexandra wasn't popular in Russia and she became even less popular during war, because she was German born. People accused her of collaboration with Germany, while they forgot that Alix was more English than German(with her children and husband she spoke English never German).

In England she visited her grandmother Victoria for all holidays, and it was Victoria who oversaw her education, plus she was raised by an English nanny, Mary Anne Orchard. As Alix said herself, the German language was her the language of her homeland, but the English language was her birthright. She spoke both well, was awkward in French and Russian, and the whole Russian family spoke English in their private home life, in deference to her.

Alix and her sisters were raised and stayed with Queen Victoria in England. So they were English speaking NOT German speaking during that time.

Lili Dehn writes that it was fashionable to have a German nurse/nanny in St. Petersburg. Then it was fashionable to have an English one. And English was spoken at the court.

French was mainly the language spoken at the Russian court.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

When any of you get around to having a lengthy conversation with a well educated and multi-language speaking royal, then come back here and tell me if I'm wrong.

All I'm just saying here is that the only sources we can get of who Alix talked in general can be from letters Alix wrote, and books based on Alix. You just don't have major evidence to prove that Alix exaclty spoke that way to her family.

A few of you seem to find this need to continue your false ideas that anyone German born in a German state didn't speak German along with other languages from infancy until they left their country and/or their communities. Do you think it makes Alexandra less German because she spoke and wrote English as a teenager and as an adult? It doesn't.

I didn't say ALL German born people don't speak German. Many of the people who are born in Germany, do speak German. But, we aren't talking about the whole people of Germany! We are talking about Alix, she grew up and picked up the language in England were she lived for most of her teenage years since six years old. As Alix said herself, the German language was her the language of her homeland, but the English language was her birthright.

What some of you need to do is take up a few books that deal with the German history. There was life before Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. There was life before the German states became part of a country known by most of you as Germany.

I agree, it's always good to read and do research about German history. Just to have a full understanding.

Queen Victoria, her husband, Albert, and their children, one of which was Alexandra's mother, did speak German among themselves and behind closed doors. After Albert died, German was no longer used to the degree that it was before his death in 1861.

Yes, this is true for Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. But, we are talking about her grand-daughter Alix.

And, why did I used Jane Austin as a example? Most young people have seen very little of German royality unless it has to do with Kaiser Wilhelm II, Hitler and the Third Reich. Have any of you read a book or seen a movie or a tv special that didn't make the Germans look like evil Nazis who's aim in life, or so it appears, was that of gunning down the innocent? Since the majority of you haven't, I used Jane Austin's stories, which have been made into movies which show some of the social class differences which existed in the 1800s to WWI, better known at that time as THE GREAT WAR. And that is why I used her stories as an example.

Jane Austen was a English author, she didn't really have much to do with German history. I do understand what you mean by the social classes.I've seen some movies based on German history, but most of the one's I've seen were documentaries. I think in different countries of Europe people speak their language in many different ways. But, we are only talking about the Imperial family, and I don't believe they guttered other languages in their mouths.

Before WWI, the royal family lineage in Europe and Russia was dominated by those who were German. Have any of you ever ready the book Hessian Tapestry?

 

[Russophile]

Right, AE, which doesn't mean she DIDN'T speak it or she DIDN'T know it. She did.
I am wondering AE, though, how many languages do you speak and when somebody talks to you in one language, can you switch quickly over to that language completely? Or do you encorporate other languages into your conversation as the words pop into your brain. If you can converse completely in one language, good for you. I can't. My brain adds the language as I go along so I sound more like I belong with the Catalonians.

 

[kell]

russ you gotta remember the old school of royal training made sure you never made those mistakes i never heard otto habsburg makeing those mistakes and yes i was there when gergi hasburg came to toronto but honestly lets change topics already this one is way over debated even if warren will string me up for my spelling error on the name

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I am wondering AE, though, how many languages do you speak and when somebody talks to you in one language, can you switch quickly over to that language completely?

I can only speak one language if someone is only talking to me in one language. I really would get very confused if I began to pluck out words in German or any other language.

Or do you encorporate other languages into your conversation as the words pop into your brain. If you can converse completely in one language, good for you. I can't. My brain adds the language as I go along so I sound more like I belong with the Catalonians.

No, I just talk in one langauge. I don't pluck out words from some other language while I'm speaking English. My brain couldn't do that unless, I was talking in only one language at the time. I would get very confused about what I was talking about.

If you can converse completely in one language, good for you. I can't. My brain adds the language as I go along so I sound more like I belong with the Catalonians.

So, when you're speaking English you pluck out some words from another language? in a conversation? It is very odd to do that. I can not do that it would be very difficult.

 

[Warren]

...but honestly lets change topics already this one is way over debated even if warren will string me up for my spelling error on the name

For using a lower-case w instead of W?
No, I'm more concerned with the way the temperatiure of the thread is rising. This could be an interesting discussion as it covers not just 'language' but communication within the Court, society and family across several countries and interrelated dynasties. I don't understand why it's turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" argument and it seems so unnecessary when the contributors have so much knowledge to share.

 

[kell]

i agree with warren on this one

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

No, I'm more concerned with the way the temperatiure of the thread is rising. This could be an interesting discussion as it covers not just 'language' but communication within the Court, society and family across several countries and interrelated dynasties. I don't understand why it's turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" argument and it seems so unnecessary when the contributors have so much knowledge to share.

Sorry, this topic did get very deep to part of the communication and the way the imperial family talked. I really didn't mean to be annoying or anything but, many people don't just pluck out words from another language especially when the other person in the conversation can't understand much.

Please, lets just stop arguing and put this discussion to a rest.

 

[Russophile]

So, when you're speaking English you pluck out some words from another language? in a conversation? It is very odd to do that. I can not do that it would be very difficult.

No, English is my native tongue. But I studied, French, German, Italian and Spanish--when in Spain. When somebody in Spain asked me a question, sometimes the start of a Spanish sentance would come out but with a French noun/subject or an Italian phrase. I believe that is what Bear was talking about when she said they (Royalty) spoke like that.
We asked Luisa (a friend of the family, pure Italian) in Italy, once how she thought. She said she spoke in Italian, drempt in English and swore in French.

 

[kell]

its almost x mas lets give this theard a little steam off period

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

its almost x mas lets give this theard a little steam off period

Thank you! It's good to have someone who understands.It seems everything has already been discussed, and that we need to know and there is no point in getting off -topic.

No, English is my native tongue. But I studied, French, German, Italian and Spanish--when in Spain. When somebody in Spain asked me a question, sometimes the start of a Spanish sentance would come out but with a French noun/subject or an Italian phrase. I believe that is what Bear was talking about when she said they (Royalty) spoke like that.
We asked Luisa (a friend of the family, pure Italian) in Italy, once how she thought. She said she spoke in Italian, drempt in English and swore in French.

Please, let's not start this argument again. When everyone else already said that this discussion needs to be put to rest.

 

[Warren]

A bit more of the Christmas spirit would be in order.
Russophile was not trying to "continue the argument again". She was giving some information about herself, plus an anecdote.

 

[kell]

ya i know meant to anyone whos willing to shoot one accross the bow

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

A bit more of the Christmas spirit would be in order.
Russophile was not trying to "continue the argument again". She was giving some information about herself, plus an anecdote.

Yes, that's true. Warren, I wasn't trying to start anything with nobody. I want all of us to have a good Christmas time without any disagreements and trouble.

No, English is my native tongue. But I studied, French, German, Italian and Spanish--when in Spain. When somebody in Spain asked me a question, sometimes the start of a Spanish sentance would come out but with a French noun/subject or an Italian phrase. I believe that is what Bear was talking about when she said they (Royalty) spoke like that.
We asked Luisa (a friend of the family, pure Italian) in Italy, once how she thought. She said she spoke in Italian, drempt in English and swore in French.

I apologize, you were not trying to start anything. You were only giving more information about the languages you've studied.

 

[Russophile]

You're okay. No apologies needed. Just trying to clairfy things here.

 

[AGRBear]

Happy New Year ALL!

russophile is not the acception but has the commmon problem (if one calls it a problem) of mixing languages.

I still don't understand why some of you are trying to convince everyone that Alexandra couldn't/didn't speak German after she left Hesse and lived with Queen Victoria.

AGRBear

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I still don't understand why some of you are trying to convince everyone that Alexandra couldn't/didn't speak German after she left Hesse and lived with Queen Victoria.

I was posting information and proving that Alix didn't use German.

 

[ChatNoir]

A tidbit from FOTR:
That night, Dr. Derevenko arrived, accompanied by Avdayev. During this visit, as Alexei Sidorov noted in the duty book, Alexandra spoke to her daughters in German, a language that had been forbidden. Avdayev warned her that if she continued to speak in a language he did not understand in front of Derevenko, the doctor would not be allowed any future visits. The following day, when Derevenko arrived at the Ipatiev House, he was turned away owing to the empress's indiscretion.

 

[Furienna]

That was interesting, ChatNoir!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Most likely the language was English and the Bolsheviks didn't know the difference. According to everyone they knew, Alexandra spoke to her children in English and, as Olga A. stated "German was never used in the family." You also have to consider that since Alexandra was known and hated for being 'the German woman/spy' naturally any language she spoke that they didn't understand would be taken by them for German. The Bolsheviks were certainly not was worldy and well educated as the upper classes, many were illiterate and most had never left the region in which they were born, so it's not likely they'd be able to distinguish between western European languages.

 

[ChatNoir]

From FOTR:
Another guard, a former worker from Verkh-Isetsk, remembered:
The first time, I was on guard in the garden, one day in the spring. I came on duty just as the Emperor and his family were let out for their walk. It semed to me as I followed them, that they spoke to each other soto voice in English, remarking on the prettiness of the flowers and the freshness of the air and scent of the trees.

Also:
That evening, when Dr. Derevenko arrived, Avdayev brought him into the Ipatiev House and allowed him to examine the tsesarevich's leg; during his visit, however, Alwexandra again spoke in German, this time to her daughters. Avdayev warned her for a second time that this was forbidden, though he did not, as he had previously threatened, forbid the doctor any further visits. On the following day, however, Derevenko was refused admittance.

 

[kell]

didnt the czars diary say it was in english and how frightened they were

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

It is true that the elder sisters during exile spoke . The elder children Olga and Tatiana- were learning German lessons. They knew very little German. But, they didn't master the langauge though, not like English. The point I was making is that the children did not know any German during their life before captivity.Even after captivity the imperial children's German was NOT spoken fluently!

From the Life and Tragedy of Alexandra
Chapter XVI
All the Grand Duchesses were very Russian in their outlook and ideas. Their only experience of foreign countries had been in short visits to Darmstadt, and once to England, and they preferred life in their own country to anything else. They always spoke Russian among themselves and to the Emperor, English to their mother, and French to M. Gilliard. The elder girls had a smattering of German, but spoke it with difficulty; the younger ones and the Tsarevich did not know it at all.