Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[lexi4]

Well Alix's father Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse reportedly got into an argument with Alexandra, Princess of Wales at Queen Victoria's and the language they fought in was German.

Princess Alice named her daughter Alix because it was the only way that Germans could pronounce her name correctly.

Alix and her father though hated the Prussian influence with the Kaiser though.

That's really interesting Ysbel. Do you remember where you read that?

 

[Russophile]

That's okay Bear, you won't get flak for it here, just good, intellectual discussion!
Hey Felix, how'z it going? I should have told you over at our other forum that you need to put your introductions into the Members corner. This way the Mod's and Admin's know you're here. But good to see you!

Bear, on the languages, always informative as usual!

 

[ysbel]

Nicky did not speak or write Danish. He and his mother communicated in French and the Marie spoke Russian, more than wrote it. So, I doubt, that OTMAA had Danish lessons. Reference King, Kaiser, Tsar, by Catherine Clay.

I believe my reference was Massie's book which he could have been wrong in but he offhandedly mentioned that the children were going off to their Danish lessons.

 

[ysbel]

Mod Note:

I moved the posts about Anna Anderson to our pending forum for the new Questions of Identity forum.

The forum is not ready for discussion yet, many apologies from your poor moderators. This will be a top priority for us this weekend.

Thanks for your patience.

Cheers.
ysbel
Russian forum moderator

 

[ysbel]

That's okay Bear, you won't get flak for it here, just good, intellectual discussion!
Hey Felix, how'z it going? I should have told you over at our other forum that you need to put your introductions into the Members corner. This way the Mod's and Admin's know you're here. But good to see you!

Bear, on the languages, always informative as usual!

Its nice but its not required for new members to post an introductory post into the Members corner.

 

[lexi4]

I believe my reference was Massie's book which he could have been wrong in but he offhandedly mentioned that the children were going off to their Danish lessons.

Thank you. I thought that was probably where it came from. I'll look now to see if he sourced his information.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Alexandra spoke to the children in English.Nicholas did speak to them in Russian. The girls spoke Russian together. I think they also knew French too. The girls had childish Russian and fair English. Alexei didn't learn English until like 1914. He usually spoke mainly Russian.

 

[lexi4]

Alexandra spoke to the children in English.Nicholas did speak to them in Russian. The girls spoke Russian together. I think they also knew French too. The girls had childish Russian and fair English. Alexei didn't learn English until like 1914. He usually spoke mainly Russian.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[ChatNoir]

Alexandra spoke to the children in English.Nicholas did speak to them in Russian. The girls spoke Russian together. I think they also knew French too. The girls had childish Russian and fair English. Alexei didn't learn English until like 1914. He usually spoke mainly Russian.

From Gleb Botkin's book: The Woman who rose again:
"But the Grand Duchesses and the Czarevich spoke not only fluently but so rapidly that at first I was hardly able to understand them. In addition to this, they had an accent which seemed English when they spoke in Russian and Russian when they spoke in English, and in actual fact was an accent quite their own."
Nothing here about Alexis not speaking English before 1914. And since he was the heir to the throne and had to be groomed from day one, it seems very strange that his English lessons did not begin before 1914. And I cannot see his mother speaking Russian with him all those years. From Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book: Anastasia, the survivor of Ekaterinburg:
"With Mamma we always spoke in English. If alone with Papa, we ofteh spoke Russian; but when we were all together, English alone was always spoken."
Now I would like to see your sources, if I may.

ChatNoir

 

[AGRBear]

Alexandra spoke to the children in English.Nicholas did speak to them in Russian. The girls spoke Russian together. I think they also knew French too. The girls had childish Russian and fair English. Alexei didn't learn English until like 1914. He usually spoke mainly Russian.

Alexandra spoke to her children in English. Then you tell us that Alexis didn't learn English until 1914. So, Alexandra and everyone else must have just spoken to Alexei just in Russian from 1904 to 1914. But this doesn't seem correct. Not when parents and siblings are speaking Russian and English as their main languages and learning others during those years.

What was the next (third) language Alexei learned?

AGRBear

PS Chat, seems like we're on the same wave length and posted almost at the same time.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I just don't agree with you people. Alexei learned Russian but, he spoke in French to Alexandra. I seen many letters he wrote to her in French. I have seen many documentaries and read many books that explain that Alexei did learn English in 1914. He also wrote his first letters to Alexandra in English in 1916.

 

[Furienna]

Well, French seems to have been a popular language in Russia, so it wouldn't be too strange if the tsar's children learned French.

 

[lexi4]

I just don't agree with you people. Alexei learned Russian but, he spoke in French to Alexandra. I seen many letters he wrote to her in French. I have seen many documentaries and read many books that explain that Alexei did learn English in 1914. He also wrote his first letters to Alexandra in English in 1916.

How about listing some of those sources? I think that would be helpful.

 

[ChatNoir]

I just don't agree with you people. Alexei learned Russian but, he spoke in French to Alexandra. I seen many letters he wrote to her in French. I have seen many documentaries and read many books that explain that Alexei did learn English in 1914. He also wrote his first letters to Alexandra in English in 1916.

In 1912, when Alexei was 8 1/2 years old, he had his first French lesson with Mr. Gilliard. Gilliard complained about the girls who never learnt to speak fluent French, and even less fluent German. But the Tsesarewich was the only one who eventually mastered French. In 1913 Gibbs was employed to improve the girls' English, and of course, Alexis took lessons as well. Maybe this is why Anastasia Evidence is confused.

ChatNoir

 

[COUNTESS]

It seems odd to me that the children wouldn't be able to speak French, as that is the language the court spoke and, at that time, the language of diplomacy. Nicholas wrote to his mother in French. The only writing language they had in common. So a Danish born Princess and a Russian Tsar could only write to each other in French. English, secondly, was the language most used by Alix. She wrote to Nicholas in English, she had English nannies for the children, who, I am sure spoke English to them. Nicholas' strong point was his knowledge of languages. He spoke excellent English and French and German very well. Source: Nicholas II The Interrupted Transition. Tatiana wrote to her mother in English. That no one spoke English to Alexei until 1914 seems bizzarre.

 

[ChatNoir]

Of course they spoke English to Alexei all the time. As I pointed out, he did not have his first French lesson until he was eight and a half years old. English was the language used when the whole family were together, but when the children were alone with the Tsar, they often used Russian. According to AA, she always spoke English with her grandmother.

ChatNoir

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

According to Massie, and the books of those who knew Alix well (Vyrubova, Buxhoevedon, Dehn, Gilliard) her main language was English. It's common and well accepted knowledge that this was true, and that she and Nicky spoke English to each other. Her letters and diaries are English, and she spoke mostly English with the children. As has been mentioned by others, the children learned English young and had some British nannies. No one is saying that Alix didn't speak German, I'm sure she did. She spoke it to her father. However, English was clearly her language of choice. It should tell you something that her correspondence with her siblings, also half German, was in English. They were raised by British nannies, and after their mother died, spent a great deal of time in England with Grandmama Queen Victoria. English was the most used language in her family growing up, and since it was her best language, it became used very much among her own family (Nicky and the kids) Those who were close to Alix described her as having the ways of a Victorian Englishwoman. No one who knew Alix in real life ever said anything about her using German with any frequency, if at all.

On the subject of the guards saying she spoke German, I agree with the poster who said that the guards likely didn't know the difference. Most of the people who became Bolsheviks were peasants, mostly uneducated, many illiterate, few if any had been exposed to foreign languages. Because of all the rumors about Alix being a German spy, being called The German Woman by her enemies, naturally they would assume any language she spoke other than Russian must have been German, but that doesn't mean it was. In The File On the Tsar it says that the Bolsheviks forbid the family to speak any language other than Russian, so that they could be understood. Summers and Mangold wrote that the family was forbidden to use their usual English.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Of course they spoke English to Alexei all the time. As I pointed out, he did not have his first French lesson until he was eight and a half years old. English was the language used when the whole family were together, but when the children were alone with the Tsar, they often used Russian. According to AA, she always spoke English with her grandmother.

ChatNoir

Yes, I agree.
It's very bad, to confirm that information from AA, (a Polish factory worker fraud) who that never even met or knew NAOTMAA. AA was not Anastasia and she never knew any Russian, barely English and French. She didn't even resemble her at all! I don't believe that Alexei spoke English with OTMA. I think they all spoke Russian together- OTMAA. It is true that Nicholas spoke Russian with OTMAA. Then, Alix spoke English with the children. But, sometimes Alix and Nicholas wrote in French to each other. Alix was learning French, and Nicky would assist her with her French. They would write in English often. I'm postive that OTMAA didn't know German at all. Except- Olga and Tatiana they knew very little they were studying it while they were in Ekateringburg.

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, I agree.
It's very bad, to confirm that information from AA, (a Polish factory worker fraud) who that never even met or knew NAOTMAA.

Why is it bad to confirm information from AA when it turns out to be absolutely correct?

AA was not Anastasia and she never knew any Russian, barely English and French.

According to the protocols at Dalldorf, she conversed in Russian with the nurses there. Many other people testified to her knowledge of Russian.

She didn't even resemble her at all!

See for yourself.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia1916-1976.jpg

I'm postive that OTMAA didn't know German at all. Except- Olga and Tatiana they knew very little they were studying it while they were in Ekateringburg.

From Gilliards own time tables, we know that the Grand Duchesses were tutored in German even when in Tobolsk. From Anastasia's schoolbooks, we learned that she wrote German with fewer mistakes than her Russian.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

< ed Warren: unnecessary >

According to the protocols at Dalldorf, she conversed in Russian with the nurses there. Many other people testified to her knowledge of Russian.

You have to get information from the people who personally knew Anastasia! duh! Such as, Olga Alexandrovna, Ernest of Hesse and Gilliard. Anna Anderson made up big excuses for not speaking Russian:'' forgot it'', ''don't remember it'' and '' don't want to speak the language of the people who murdered so called 'family'.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia1916-1976.jpg See for yourself.

I've just looked at the photo, and I don't see a similarity between those two. It does look like someone made a attempt, to try to digitally alter AA's photo. AA is five years older than Anastasia. She was born on December of 1896. She lacks the features of Anastasia. Don't you see how different AA's eyes are from Anastasia? Her handwritting is different, languages, attitude, appearance, and looks. Anna Anderson was mentally ill, remember when she had a very dirty house full of too many cats and many declaired her insane. She also had very bad English. Many had trouble understand what she meant. Someone had to explain it! She also had a mental breakdown when she went to America. Even, before she claimed to be Anastasia she was mentally ill. She even tried to kill herself. FS and AA act the same in everything because they're the same person. You can't deny that!

From Gilliards own time tables, we know that the Grand Duchesses were tutored in German even when in Tobolsk. From Anastasia's schoolbooks, we learned that she wrote German with fewer mistakes than her Russian

No, Gillard never said that! He said NONE of OTMAA knew any German, just very little. They never wrote in German. There not any letters of them writting in German, threrefore they barely knew any.

 

[AGRBear]

According to Massie, and the books of those who knew Alix well (Vyrubova, Buxhoevedon, Dehn, Gilliard) her main language was English. It's common and well accepted knowledge that this was true, and that she and Nicky spoke English to each other. Her letters and diaries are English, and she spoke mostly English with the children. As has been mentioned by others, the children learned English young and had some British nannies. No one is saying that Alix didn't speak German, I'm sure she did. She spoke it to her father. However, English was clearly her language of choice. It should tell you something that her correspondence with her siblings, also half German, was in English. They were raised by British nannies, and after their mother died, spent a great deal of time in England with Grandmama Queen Victoria. English was the most used language in her family growing up, and since it was her best language, it became used very much among her own family (Nicky and the kids) Those who were close to Alix described her as having the ways of a Victorian Englishwoman. No one who knew Alix in real life ever said anything about her using German with any frequency, if at all.

On the subject of the guards saying she spoke German, I agree with the poster who said that the guards likely didn't know the difference. Most of the people who became Bolsheviks were peasants, mostly uneducated, many illiterate, few if any had been exposed to foreign languages. Because of all the rumors about Alix being a German spy, being called The German Woman by her enemies, naturally they would assume any language she spoke other than Russian must have been German, but that doesn't mean it was. In The File On the Tsar it says that the Bolsheviks forbid the family to speak any language other than Russian, so that they could be understood. Summers and Mangold wrote that the family was forbidden to use their usual English.

Alexandra's first language was the language spoken in the German state of Hesse since her father was the Grand Duke. Guess what language Alexandra, her father and family spoke? German.

Queen Victoria was married to a Prussian and behind closed doors, the Queen, her husband and family spoke German.

German nor French nor English was used in the Russian Royal court and legal matters. Russian was. Not sure when this changed. I know Alex. III demanded everything become Russianized during his reign, so French may have been on the "outs" during his reign. Anyone know exactly when it changed?

As for the peasants in Ekaterinburg,whom some of you think, were unable to know if they heard German or not. Give me a break. Ekaterinburg wasn't an isolated small Siberian tribal village. Ekaterinburg was filled with all sorts of nationalities. It was a thriving community and it's rich mines brought in all sorts of people from across the world. There were streets cars, a telephone company, railway stations, hospital, schools (one being the School of Mines)....banks...

I believe there is a Ekaterinburg web site in English which can give you more information on it's history. I may have used it as a source over on AP when we were talking about the phones. If I find it, I'll bring it here.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

It seems odd to me that the children wouldn't be able to speak French, as that is the language the court spoke and, at that time, the language of diplomacy. Nicholas wrote to his mother in French. The only writing language they had in common. So a Danish born Princess and a Russian Tsar could only write to each other in French. English, secondly, was the language most used by Alix. She wrote to Nicholas in English, she had English nannies for the children, who, I am sure spoke English to them. Nicholas' strong point was his knowledge of languages. He spoke excellent English and French and German very well. Source: Nicholas II The Interrupted Transition. Tatiana wrote to her mother in English. That no one spoke English to Alexei until 1914 seems bizzarre.

Do you really believe Alexei was unable to communicate with his mother in English, only French?

It was true, French at that time was considered the language for diplomatic relationships and was taught to all the upper class children.

Of course Alexei spoke Russian. He was the future Tsar of Russia.

Alexandera had a terrible time speaking Russian, which was another one of her failures since she was the Tsarina of Russia. Kinda like her ancestor George I of England who couldn't speak English and was known as "the farmer". Didn't go well for Georgie nor Alexandra.

Like Chat Noir stated, there are German lesson books of Anastasia's,which were provided to the German court in AA's case. [Just because I mention AA doesn't mean I believe AA was GD Anastasia. I don't.] The lesson book/books did survive, and, did end up in the German courts. The reason we know this is because the discussion occured around the lesson book which probably held GD Anastasia's fingerprints. At that time, the method of lifting the print/prints would have destroyed the lesson book, so, it was keep in once piece, and, now, is somewhere in someone's vault.



AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Alexandra's first language was the language spoken in the German state of Hesse since her father was the Grand Duke. Guess what language Alexandra, her father and family spoke? German.

She did speak German with her father, but English with her mother and siblings. Her 'first' language waws probably English considering she had Miss Orchard, who was British, as a nanny (who had also been Alice's nanny) All of their lives the siblings communicated in English. We all know Alexandra spoke German, of course she did. The point is that you can see by all the correspondence left behind, and by the eyewitness accounts in books written by those who knew the family up close, that English was the language used by Alexandra and her siblings, Alexandra and Nicholas, and was a second language to the children. French was an acquired language, German was not used. Just because you study it a little doesn't mean you can speak it. I know someone who took 2 years in high school and 1 year in college but can't function in German at all. Regardless of all this, it's a fact that German was by far the least known and used of the Romanov children and would not have been the only one Anastasia could speak a year and a half later. AA spoke German as her main language because she was FS, not AN.

German nor French nor English was used in the Russian Royal court and legal matters. Russian was. Not sure when this changed.

From all I've heard, French was the language of the court. This is not to mean the court as in legal court system, but the court of the Tsar and the Imperial family in the palaces.

As for the peasants in Ekaterinburg,whom some of you think, were unable to know if they heard German or not. Give me a break. Ekaterinburg wasn't an isolated small Siberian tribal village. Ekaterinburg was filled with all sorts of nationalities. It was a thriving community and it's rich mines brought in all sorts of people from across the world. There were streets cars, a telephone company, railway stations, hospital, schools (one being the School of Mines)....banks...

I disagree. Also remember most of them were not local people. I know many Americans who have access to world travel, TV and the internet who can't tell one language from another, so there's much less of a chance poor and likely illiterate peasants knew languages. The fact that they forbid the family to speak in anything other than Russian proves this was so they could understand, since they knew no other languages.

Quote from Olga Alexandrovna in her biography, on her meeting with AA:

My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family."

 

[plkbvt]

Chat -- actually, Gibbes was employed in 1908, after King Edward VII complained to his niece (Alexandra) that her daughters' English was "abominable." But in all these questions of languages we need to remember that there was (and is) a difference between "proper" or educated conversation and the sort of "house use" of languages that the grand duchesses grew up in and around. They probably couldn't have conducted an elegant or sophisticated conversation in French or German -- let's say, something that involved IDEAS -- but they could certainly snap out words and phrases for practical purposes. And they could *follow* conversations with ease. As Nancy Wynkoop put it to me about the royal generation just above her, "The family was so polylingual that, when speaking among themselves, they chose a word simply for its precision, from one of several languages."

Gilliard, of course, said whatever suited his purposes: later he claimed that the girls spoke no German at all -- this was in response to AA, and it's a sheer absurdity -- no royal princess of that era escaped tutoring in German. pk

In 1912, when Alexei was 8 1/2 years old, he had his first French lesson with Mr. Gilliard. Gilliard complained about the girls who never learnt to speak fluent French, and even less fluent German. But the Tsesarewich was the only one who eventually mastered French. In 1913 Gibbs was employed to improve the girls' English, and of course, Alexis took lessons as well. Maybe this is why Anastasia Evidence is confused.

ChatNoir

 

[AGRBear]

Alexander III Russianized Russia and did so with an iron fist. He wanted Russian to be the first language. The schools were no longer allowed to be completely German or whatever language a community held as their language, because Alexander III required all schools to be taught in Russian, although, hours were given for other languages to be spoken, accept in Poland. I have the date this orders was given around here somewhere....

I agree with Peter Kurth that the upper class and royals mixed their languages with great ease and the words they chose depended upon what they were trying to express in conversations among themselves. I believe, however, during officials functions, Russian was used.


AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

...[in part]....

I disagree. Also remember most of them were not local people. I know many Americans who have access to world travel, TV and the internet who can't tell one language from another, so there's much less of a chance poor and likely illiterate peasants knew languages. The fact that they forbid the family to speak in anything other than Russian proves this was so they could understand, since they knew no other languages.

Quote from Olga Alexandrovna in her biography, on her meeting with AA:

My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family."

What each individual knew or did not know depended upon the person. Peasant may not be able to read or write but this doesn't mean they are stupid. They knew a Turk or a Italian or a German not just by their language but by their clothes and many times by there occupations.

Just look at the old photos of the late 1800s and 1900s and you'll understand what I'm trying to convey.

AGRBear

 

[Furienna]

I still think it would be hard for ordinary people to tell the difference between different foreign languages.

 

[acdc1]

On page 130 of my Nicholas and Alexandra book, Robert Massie writes " Nicholas read equally well in Russian, English and French and he could manage in German and Danish." So, I'm not sure how fluent he was in any of these languages, but I'm guessing the Russian, English and French were better than the German and Danish. For the Danish, I don't know how fluent he would be, but it would not surprise me at all if he knew some basic Danish, since that is his mother's native tongue. However, it is possible to read in a language and not be fluent. I, for instance, know some Danish, but am very, very far from being fluent. Yet I can still read it, though I'm not sure of everything I read sometimes.

 

[Furienna]

Thanks for sharing that with us!

 

[Russophile]

I'm reading a bio. on Ella, Serge's wife and sister to Alexandra who was taught German, English, and French, then latin and Italian later. Of course we know things changed when Princess Alice died and I haven't gotten there yet. Alexandra, as we all know, was younger than her sister Ella and the change of climate due to Princess Alice's death would have affected her in every way, especially education.