Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[Anna was Franziska]

I just got finished watching the new National Geographic Explorer episode "Finding Anastasia". At the end, they showed some of the DNA results in chart form. I think it must have been nuclear DNA of Nicholas and Alexandra. They showed how one body, a male, matched up on so many lines to both N and A, proving he was their son. The second body, a girl, also matched both parents, and matched the boy so closely that the scientist said it would be 'more than a million to one chance' they were not siblings. With that good of a match, there's no more doubt. They know for sure they have Alexei because he was the only son, and while they can't prove if the burned body is AN or Maria, they know for sure all the bodies are accounted for and no one got away.

 

[J Kendrick]

A hypothetical problem...
There were seven teeth in this discovery of last summer. We also know
that the victims may have been hit by rifle butts in the half-cellar
room at Ipatiev...

So...

Let us suppose for a moment that when Yurovsky's men had buried the
bodies that they did have in Pigs Meadow... that they had also swept a
number of loose teeth off the deck of the truck that were there as a
result of the victims having been hit in the face with rifle butts and
thrown them in the pit as well... but *after* the body... or bodies...
of the missing had been carried away by persons unknown.

Then the researchers would now have the DNA evidence that could allow
them to make their claim that all of the family had been found...

... but we could still be missing a Romanov or two...

... because teeth alone do not prove death.

Thoughts, anyone?

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The problem with that theory is that the burned bodies were first. When they realized they didn't have time to dismember and burn them all before dawn and were afraid of getting caught when the sun came up they dumped the rest of the bodies in the other hole and poured acid on top of them. Any residue left over would have been in the second grave, not the first.

Also if you see the National Geographic show, it wasn't just the teeth. They had other bone fragments and ground parts of the bone up into fine powder. It looked like they used the pelvis of the girl and the arm/shoulder of the boy. There were clearly two sets of remains since one had a Y and one had only X chromosomes. The Y couldn't be anyone but Alexei since his nuclear DNA was a perfect match to elements in the nuclear DNA patterns of both parents. The two bodies were proven to be siblings and the biological children of N and A.

 

[AGRBear]

Very earlier in the Nat. Geo. special, they mentioned that they would need to prove that the bones of the female found in the new grave in 2007 were not from the mass grave.

They never answered this question at the end of the special. The fellow who was working on the DNA/mtDNA just flatly stated that the two remains found in the two pits this last summer (July 2007) were siblings. And that was that. Okay. But, Alexei had four siblings, three of whom we know about in the mass grave. So, does the DNA/mtDNA show us that there were four female siblings with their own markers? Maybe, I missed that part.

I, also, noticed, the special continued to voice that it was either Anastasia or Marie in the pit.

I couldn't help but zero in on the fact that the pork ribs which the scientist burned for 1 hour then 3 hours did not show the same damage as found on the bones in the two pits.

All in all, I wished they had shown us all the items found.

Nor could I help being annoyed at the Russians and their treatment of the bones which they exposed time and time again and didn't seem to be worried about contamination which did concern our two Americans.

What were the names of our two Americans?

Wish I would have taped the special. Oh well, guess it'll be on the market soon and I'll have a copy then.

AGRBear

 

[Michael HR]

Following on from what bear said would it not be possible to look at the DNA of the females found and compare them against each other. We know that sisters will have DNA that is very alike but not quite a 100% match to each other but will match mtDNA. If we look at the sibling DNA and compare against each other it should show that each has a mtDNA match to the Empress and that each DNA is very alike but not identical and this would show that there were 4 siblings of the female line in the grave(s) and acount for each of the GD's. So far as the male DNA found in the second grave I do not see who else this could be but Alexis as there is a mtDNA match to the Empress and there is no one else that it could be unless I have missed something.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The fellow who was working on the DNA/mtDNA just flatly stated that the two remains found in the two pits this last summer (July 2007) were siblings. And that was that. Okay. But, Alexei had four siblings, three of whom we know about in the mass grave. So, does the DNA/mtDNA show us that there were four female siblings with their own markers? Maybe, I missed that part.

No that was not that. I have it on tape and when I have time I can transcribe exactly what he said. I know they said that both samples were compared to the Tsar and Tsarina and both the male and the female (x) were the biological children of both. Then they said 'this is their son' and compared the boy and girl and said they were siblings. Finally they said that it didn't matter if it was AN or Maria because they were all now accounted for.

The grasping at straws theory that these are scraps from the other grave is false for two reasons, one, as shown in the show based on Bolshevik reports, the burned grave was FIRST! It was covered up and over with before they put the other bodies in the mass grave. As I explained to JK over the teeth, if there had been any residue it would have gone in the mass grave not the burn pit. Also the bones in the burn pit show signs of fire damage the others did not. The Bolsheviks said they burned 2 bodies and buried them separately. This is what has been found. Why is this so hard to believe or understand.

What were the names of our two Americans?


AGRBear

One was Dr. Falsetti the same man who challenged the Russian ID of Anastasia in the 1991 grave and Maria being missing, in 2000 along with Maples and Dr. Diane French. I don't know the other off hand.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

So far as the male DNA found in the second grave I do not see who else this could be but Alexis as there is a mtDNA match to the Empress and there is no one else that it could be unless I have missed something.

No there is no one else it could be, there is only one boy who shares DNA markers from both Nicholas and Alexandra. As the scientists in the show said, this is Alexei, this is their son. Since there was only one son there's no doubt. Even though they can't ID the girl for sure they do know all four bodies have been found. They had a partial pelvis bone of a female which is what they used to extract the DNA sample. All the other bodies in the 1991 grave still had their pelvis bone. This was the burned remains of the fourth daughter.

 

[AGRBear]

Did the remains of the three females found in the mass grave have complete pelvis bones?

Did they say they used the pelvic bone for DNA/mtDNA?

AGRBear

PS Here is the familiar drawing of the bones found in the mass grave:

author=AGRBear RomanovsRussia

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/ColorBonesWeb.jpg

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie*
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

Note:
*Maples, the American forensic scientists, believed #5 was GD Maria and not GD Anastasia as the Russians believe

Two bodies are missing, Tsarvich Alexei and one G D [Grand Duchess]

 

[AGRBear]

Following on from what bear said would it not be possible to look at the DNA of the females found and compare them against each other. We know that sisters will have DNA that is very alike but not quite a 100% match to each other but will match mtDNA. If we look at the sibling DNA and compare against each other it should show that each has a mtDNA match to the Empress and that each DNA is very alike but not identical and this would show that there were 4 siblings of the female line in the grave(s) and acount for each of the GD's. So far as the male DNA found in the second grave I do not see who else this could be but Alexis as there is a mtDNA match to the Empress and there is no one else that it could be unless I have missed something.

This is what I'd like to see. Proof of 4 siblings which are not identical but similar and showing their own matches with Nicholas II and Alexandra.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Did the remains of the three females found in the mass grave have complete pelvis bones?

Yes and even if they were broken they weren't burned. And remember- they dumped the other 3 in the mass grave AFTER they completed the burning.

(and yes bear I thought of you and your bonfire/bbq when the guy did the pork burning experiment!)

Did they say they used the pelvic bone for DNA/mtDNA?

They showed it and Falsetti said "here is the pelvic bone of a female" and then they show parts of it being removed and ground up and put in a glass container and put in a device to extract DNA. I think that was the only part of the female large and solid enough to get DNA out of.

 

[AGRBear]

Yes and even if they were broken they weren't burned. And remember- they dumped the other 3 in the mass grave AFTER they completed the burning.

I don't quite follow your logic.

If someone took a piece of pelvic bone out of the mass grave, you mean to say someone couldn't have burned it later then reburied it?

Which leads me to this. The burning of the pork ribs.

(and yes bear I thought of you and your bonfire/bbq when the guy did the pork burning experiment!)

Funny? He proved, again, bones couldn't be destroyed in 1 to 3 hours by burning. So, where did all the bones go that were NOT found in the two pits this last July? And, why were the ones found in the condition they were? Some part of this story is missing, I think. And the teeth? Where are the rest of them? More than thirty are missing. And teeth are nearly impossible to destroy by even the hottest of fires.

They showed it and Falsetti said "here is the pelvic bone of a female" and then they show parts of it being removed and ground up and put in a glass container and put in a device to extract DNA. I think that was the only part of the female large and solid enough to get DNA out of.

I don't recall which bone or bones they used for the DNA/mtDNA testing. I do recall them making a decision that they had two remains "X" and "Y" and that the pelvic bone was female.

If you look closely at the drawing of the bones in my illustration above, I'm not so sure all the pelvic bones of the grand duchesses were intact.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I don't quite follow your logic.

I'm having no easy time with yours, that's for sure. I'm saying if the burned grave was finished and covered first, that nothing from the mass grave would be in it because the mass grave was the last thing they did.

If someone took a piece of pelvic bone out of the mass grave, you mean to say someone couldn't have burned it later then reburied it?
AGRBear

Oh come on! Are you really saying somebody took a piece of pelvis out of the mass grave and burned it and reburied it in the burned grave? I'm sorry but that may be the wildest, most improbable stretch you've ever come up with!

 

[Michael HR]

Sorry I started an argument! DNA is the one way to show that there are 4. each one would have an mtDNA to the Empress and a very close match to each other but not 100% thus showing that they are members of the same familly and related to each other.

If all pelvic bones were present in the mass grave then this pelvic bone must be of a 4th daughter and therefore case closed.

There must be photos, and notes, of the bones from the mass grave and they should be able to say that this portion of bone from the second grave is present in each of the daughters from the mass grave and therefore this pelvic bone must be a 4th daughter.

That way no one will argue one way or the other if it is shown there are 4 individual females related to each other and to the Empress and therefore 4 GD's accounted for.

 

[AGRBear]

... [in part]... DNA is the one way to show that there are 4. each one would have an mtDNA to the Empress and a very close match to each other but not 100% thus showing that they are members of the same familly and related to each other.

If all pelvic bones were present in the mass grave then this pelvic bone must be of a 4th daughter and therefore case closed.

There must be photos, and notes, of the bones from the mass grave and they should be able to say that this portion of bone from the second grave is present in each of the daughters from the mass grave and therefore this pelvic bone must be a 4th daughter.

That way no one will argue one way or the other if it is shown there are 4 individual females related to each other and to the Empress and therefore 4 GD's accounted for.

This is what I expect to be proven but thus far I've not seen any evidence presented to us which shows there are four female remains with their own markers.

Maybe this is why they need farther testing.

Also, I'd like to know if any the 4 females are carriers of hemophilia and that Alexei's remains proves he was a hemophiliac.

>> "....If all pelvic bones were present in the mass grave then this pelvic bone must be of a 4th daughter and therefore case closed."<<

Only if all four match the DNA/mtDNA with the rest of the bones for each grand duchess.

AGRBear

 

[Michael HR]

Bear,

If it is the only way to clear this up then the tests should be done to show all four daughters are present and therefore beyond doubt and argument. For myself I think they are all present but while there is the slightest doubt that can be raised by anyone it must be cleared. If they have the DNA profiles of four daughters it would not be difficult to do this I assume as it would be a simple job to compare the profiles already on record. we must make sure that there is no suggestion that one daughter has been counted twice by mistake.

I am not so worried about Alexis as there is no one else it could be with a mtDNA match but it would be intresting to see if the DNAmatch is there for his illness or if not it might suggest that it was something else that looked like hemophilia as that would be of great intrest to us all.


Michael

 

[AGRBear]

I agree.
We do have the tests of Dr. Gill, who tells us that he used pieces from their femur bone.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/bonesColorRotated.jpg

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

You can see in the photos the other girls still have their pelvic bones. Bear please say you don't actually believe that a part of them was broken off from one of the bodies in the mass grave, burned to match the burned corpses and reburied in the already covered and hidden burn pit? WHY? To plant evidence to be found 90 years later when tests inconcievable to people of that time would exists? The Bolsheviks were trying to hide bodies not spread them around. They were in a big hurry, not plotting to mix the contents of the graves. I also would like a nuclear DNA test of all four girls, but not if it's only to satisfy outrageous conspiracy theories like this, because they never will. Just for fun, if they did get four different ones, then what excuse would you use? Dust from one contaminated another? Bear you know very well NOTHING is ever going to satisfy you if it tells us all the Romanovs died and were buried that night.

 

[AGRBear]

You can see in the photos the other girls still have their pelvic bones. Bear please say you don't actually believe that a part of them was broken off from one of the bodies in the mass grave, burned to match the burned corpses and reburied in the already covered and hidden burn pit? WHY? To plant evidence to be found 90 years later when tests inconcievable to people of that time would exists? The Bolsheviks were trying to hide bodies not spread them around. They were in a big hurry, not plotting to mix the contents of the graves. I also would like a nuclear DNA test of all four girls, but not if it's only to satisfy outrageous conspiracy theories like this, because they never will. Just for fun, if they did get four different ones, then what excuse would you use? Dust from one contaminated another? Bear you know very well NOTHING is ever going to satisfy you if it tells us all the Romanovs died and were buried that night.

I am well aware of what you assume, which is oft times incorrect, (this post is an excellent example).

[Bear takes a deep sigh.]

In order to back my final conclusion, whatever it will be, I would like to know all there is. This has meant I have posted many different theories, speculations, inquiries, questions, demanded sources, debated sources, made phone calls, written letters, and have read a huge number of books, newspapers articles, posts on forums, as well as created my own forum. The list is longer, however, I will end it here and not bore you farther. What I have learned is: I still don't know very much and I want to continue to learn about the Romanov and the Russia which they ruled and where my ancestors lived for more than a 100 years.

Now, can we get back to the subject?

What photos are you suggesting that I view which has all four pelvic bones so I and others can compared?

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

In order to back my final conclusion, whatever it will be, I would like to know all there is.

Does this include actual evidence or wild guesses and unsubstantiated speculation? If you're only going on 'truth' you have it now, unless you deny the truth as some sort of conspiracy and look into offbeat stuff for answers you'll never validate. If this is your 'path' it's truly an unending circle much akin to a dog chasing is tail, or a road to nowhere. You do NOT want the truth, you want a game.

 

[AGRBear]

So, now, that you have that off your chest, could you tell me what photos are you telling us to view?

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear I don't have time to look for the pics but I bet you do. They're all over, we've all seen them dozens of times. Even the drawings you post of the body positions in the grave have pelvises. Your idea is whack!

 

[AGRBear]

I am up to my neck in adding on five rooms to our house, caring for aging parents, getting ready for six weeks for a husband who's about to have his ankle bones fused, family, friends, two dogs, three cats, ten chickens, rose garden, veg. garden, my huge web sites, and, some sleep in there someplace, HOWEVER, when I find the time and find the photos, I'll be more than happy to post them.

Oh, incidently, not all of the pelvic bones are completely drawn on some of the grand duchesses by the scientist who made the original drawing I've provided.

AND, according to Dr. Maples, not all of the bones were placed with the correct skeletal remains. He used the example of the arm bone which the Russians placed with Nicholas II's skeletal remains. He believed it should have been placed with Trupp remains. In fact, if I remember correctly, he wasn't pleased with the way the Russians were so careless with the bones AND the way they pasted the skulls together.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well Bear since you're into weird theories, how about this- the body buried in 1998 as Anastasia has Anastasia's head but Maria's body- that explains why it's tall and over 18 but supposedly has AN's face! I read one account where AN's head was missing, don't know if it's true or not. So where would Maria's head be? I have no idea, just a bear-esque idea I had. I believe all bodies are accounted for, but what part goes to whom we may never know.

 

[AGRBear]

Well Bear since you're into weird theories, how about this- the body buried in 1998 as Anastasia has Anastasia's head but Maria's body- that explains why it's tall and over 18 but supposedly has AN's face! I read one account where AN's head was missing, don't know if it's true or not. So where would Maria's head be? I have no idea, just a bear-esque idea I had. I believe all bodies are accounted for, but what part goes to whom we may never know.

I really do wish you'd take time and find your sources. I've even offered to look up the sources, since you don't keep the books you've gotten from the library, if you'd remember which book you've read such things as

>>AN's head was missing<<

By the way there were heads missing from the mass grave and then placed back by the group who had found the mass grave. I believe I have this information on my forum. I'll go get it and added to this post when I find it.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I have read so many books and accounts over the years I don't know where they all came from, most of the books I never owned but were from various libraries and the books are now discarded. I just know the story went that they had run AN's face through with a bayonet, and later at the burial site they couldn't find the head with the bayonet thrust. (don't even know if it's true but that's what was said)

Here is the account I have names now but not a book

Piotr Voikov who was commissar for supplies in the Ural Soviet and later soviet ambassador in Poland where he was shot by a Russian monarchist,Boris Koverda in 1927. He wrote a tale of the execution and maintained he was present there and even said that it was he who gave the coup de grace to Nicholas. The actual passage about the bayonet thrust says "At that moment Ermakov exclaimed: The tsarina´s maid Anna Demidova and the youngest daughter Anastasia,are still breathing. Two of the letts from the cheka ran forward to finish off Anna Demidova and the youngest daughter Anastasia.One of the Letts drove a bayonet through Anastasa´s face

The report goes on to say that later the head (not whole body and not living) of AN, distinct because of the bayonet thrust, was missing when they went to dump the bodies.

 

[AGRBear]

Thank you AWF. Now, I can see what else I can find.

Here is the information about THREE skulls being removed from the mass grave in 1979.

author AGRBear RomanovsRussia=1 post_id=1952 date=1203611495]

p. 436 of Edvard Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR:
"...1979 they decided to dig it up. Then they removed three skulls from the grave, made casts, and put them back."



"Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone, which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out. The box was taken up and opened."


AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

While some of you are trying to discover more facts about the "hip bones", I went to google to find out more about Peter Voikov.

Here is the first site I found:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/20/russia

According this article, some people do give him credit for having killed Nichaols II.

A P. Voikov is mentioned in Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR pps. 269-70:

>>The investigators .... ... found a note from the supply commissar, "Intellectual", P. Voikov, in the Ekaterinburg pharmacy about supplying a large quanitity of sulfuric acid.<<

AGRBear

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

The report goes on to say that later the head (not whole body and not living) of AN, distinct because of the bayonet thrust, was missing when they went to dump the bodies.

I have never read anything about Anastasia's head being missing - or indeed anyone's head being missing at the time of burial etc. Can you give us more information about this report?

 

[AGRBear]

grave: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/PigMeadowGraveSm.jpg

diagram: http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/bonesColorRotated.jpg

I'm duplicating the post diagram so you can see which bones belong to whom.

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie*
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

 

[AGRBear]

Here are the bones which scientists believed are GD Olga [#3].

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/OlgaBones.jpg

Photographed by Maples crew.

AGRBear