Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[J Kendrick]

So how would politics today benefit from all the above?

Surely, answering that question here would be straying off-topic and require starting a new thread.

Would it not?

JK

 

[Menarue]

Well ON, this is one of the things we're trying to figure out here. There are a myriad of reasons, one main one being that a heir or survivor could have claim to the throne of Russia. Though there isn't one at this time--and obviously the blood would be thin from merging with those not of a Royal Household, the popularity of one so-called survivor would put a mighty bee in the bonnet of the current regime of Russia, don't you think?
Then there are the crown lands, the resources, the money, speculations of deposits in off shore accounts. It's a big mystery.
You are very much entitled to feel the way you feel, and those of us trying to figure out the truth are very well entitled to feel the way we feel and will keep researching this subject to our hearts content.

From Wikipedia.
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia, (Mariya Vladimirovna Romanova, Cyrillic: Мари́я Влади́мировна Рома́нова) (born December 23, 1953) has been a claimant to the Headship of the Imperial Family of Russia and title Titular Empress and Autocrat of All the Russias since 1992. Throughout her life she has used as her title and style of pretension Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia.

Here it says she is a claimant to the throne. Who supports her in this claim?

 

[lexi4]

Surely, answering that question here would be straying off-topic and require starting a new thread.

Would it not?

JK

Yes, I think it would. But it would make a good topic.
Have any of you read Has anyone here read Sisu, the autobiography of Oskari Tokoi? While not about the IF or their murders at all, it does give a good idea of the lengths the Bolshiveks went to to search for survivors. What he write is only a mention but a good indicator nonetheless.
It's a good book. I highly recommend it.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

So how would politics today benefit from all the above?

This is what I keep asking too. What is supposed to be the big coverup, by who and why? If there's this big conspiracy of hiding that Anderson really was Anastasia please explain your reasons for believing this and why it would still be relevant today because to me it makes no sense at all. All I can see is the facts came in that Anderson wasn't really Anastasia and some people don't like that and want the mystery to continue so they keep coming up with strange theories of why it's all a conspiracy but so far I have seen no evidence or even any realistic theories to back this up. Please explain what you think happened and give names and reasons for your suspicions please.

 

[Russophile]

And Anna Anderson does not have any descendats anyway, so what would be the catch there?

I'm shocked you haven't read your Anna Anderson history. I thought everybody knew that when she was Mrs. Tchaikovsky she claimed to have a son, was examined and found indeed to have had a child. < ed Warren: spruiking >

 

[Marengo]

I didn't know that she was examined and that she actually gave birth to a child. Still, the childs identity is unknown to the world and there is no evidence that Mr. Tchaikovsky ever existed either, Greg King and Penny Wilson established the names of the executioners and Tchaikovsky was not one of the names.

 

[Russophile]

I didn't know that she was examined and that she actually gave birth to a child. Still, the childs identity is unknown to the world and there is no evidence that Mr. Tchaikovsky ever existed either, Greg King and Penny Wilson established the names of the executioners and Tchaikovsky was not one of the names.

And who's to say that they weren't lying about their names? If the survival story is true who wants it to be known that they plucked a surviving Grand Duchess up from a botched execution to go traipsing all over the Russian countryside with?

 

[BorisRom]

Tchaikovsky

I didn't know that she was examined and that she actually gave birth to a child. Still, the childs identity is unknown to the world and there is no evidence that Mr. Tchaikovsky ever existed either, Greg King and Penny Wilson established the names of the executioners and Tchaikovsky was not one of the names.

Recently Ekaterinburg researcher Vladimir Momot has found in military archives the list of the soldiers of protection of Ipatiev’s House. The soldier of 1-st command Anton Chaikovsky (Tchaikovsky) was registered in this list! It was 1-st command (rota - in Russian) of 1-st Ural shooting division (polk - in Russion), created in Ekaterinburg in March, 1918.
Just yesterday (!!) V.Momot has published the article about it («Ночь без рассвета» - “Night without a dawn”):
http://www.arimoya.ru/ (in Russian)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

There is a new book out called "Ekaterinburg: The Last Days of the Romanovs" by Helen Rappaport. It's already available for those of you in Britain, US release is next year. If someone has this book perhaps they can read the accounts of Sir Thomas Preston, the British counsalate in Ekaterinburg. In his memoirs, he explained how everyone was forbidden to be on the streets that night, under penalty of death. There is no way anyone could have sneaked out unnocticed, and this especially shoots holes in the 'hidden in the house across the street' theory.

 

[ChatNoir]

I may be wrong, but I have also read that Thomas Preston was nowhere near Ekaterinburg that night.

 

[J Kendrick]

What is supposed to be the big coverup, by who and why? If there's this big conspiracy of hiding that Anderson really was Anastasia please explain your reasons for believing this and why it would still be relevant today because to me it makes no sense at all.

Misdirection would be a far more accurate description than cover-up... and no matter whether it was either misdirection or a cover-up... why does everyone always assume that raising such questions must automatically have something to do with the Anderson case?

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Misdirection would be a far more accurate description than cover-up... and no matter whether it was either misdirection or a cover-up... why does everyone always assume that raising such questions must automatically have something to do with the Anderson case?

JK

Because why else would anyone allege a cover-up or doubt the findings unless they were a supporter of a claimant whose story they didn't want to die out?

 

[J Kendrick]

Because why else would anyone allege a cover-up or doubt the findings unless they were a supporter of a claimant whose story they didn't want to die out?

First off, Anderson is a very long way from being the only claimant case that is of serious concern on the planet.

Second, as has already been said earlier in this thread, we now know from the news reports published by Interfax earlier this week that they still have not found all of the missing members of the family.

To repeat an earlier post:

The leading spokesman for the investigation, Nikolai Nevolin, was quoted by Interfax on June 17th as just having said these words: "... the quantity of the remains which have been found in "the second burial place" is not enough of that what should remain at burning two bodies".

That can only mean one thing. There are only enough bone fragments for one... and, therefore, one must still be missing.

These are facts of public record that have nothing to do with alleging a cover-up or doubting the findings. These are the facts of the current investigation as it now stands.

JK

 

[lexi4]

First off, Anderson is a very long way from being the only claimant case that is of serious concern on the plan.

JK

True enough. Others just haven't been as public as the Anderson case. I find that interesting. I can think of at least two others I would consider serious and very little is known about them by the general public.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

First off, Anderson is a very long way from being the only claimant case that is of serious concern on the planet.

I meant claimants in general, and she is a claimant. Honestly, I have seen no such questioning from anyone but AA supporters and you, a supporter of Heino Tammet, an Alexei claimant.

Second, as has already been said earlier in this thread, we now know from the news reports published by Interfax earlier this week that they still have not found all of the missing members of the family.

Oh really? Where? All I saw was something from interfax badly translated from Russian that said something like that they had to keep looking to find out if one of the bodies had hemophilia. It was a big thing when they announced they were found an then identified, all over all the major news sources, I never head anything like that about your allegations!

The leading spokesman for the investigation, Nikolai Nevolin, was quoted by Interfax on June 17th as just having said these words: "... the quantity of the remains which have been found in "the second burial place" is not enough of that what should remain at burning two bodies".

Again, roughly translated from Russian, and this does not mean they haven't found the bodies! It might mean they are going back to look for more. But honestly after being partially cremated and left in the mud for 90 years, I am not surprised there wasn't much left.

That can only mean one thing. There are only enough bone fragments for one... and, therefore, one must still be missing.

So you admit one is found?

These are facts of public record that have nothing to do with alleging a cover-up or doubting the findings. These are the facts of the current investigation as it now stands.

JK

That's because it never happened.

 

[AGRBear]

Sorry for going being late on my response to earlier posts but I've been up to my ears in adding on an upper story to our home.

When some of you were talking about Yurovsky's public statements [he made more than one] about the burning and buriel of two bodies, (one being Alexei and the other Demidova), it appears you are not aware that in Yurovsky's private statement, which was saved by his son, and not published, tells us that a "single" body was burned and buried. That's right, a "single" body not two.

Take a look at all his statements on my web site:
RomanovsRussia :: Login

RomanovsRussia :: Execution: Nich II.,Fam, Others :: Investigation Into Murder of Imp :: Yurovsky's Different Statements

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, if you want to direct people to specific threads on your site, you need to fix it so lurkers can read. If it only goes to the log in page, nobody can see the forum, You need to post a direct link. If you don't want to open the forum to lurkers, why not do what I'm doing, copy and pasting stuff from my own site, rather than just posting a link.

Here are some quotes on the burning of the last two bodies:

Ermakov p. 169 FILE ON THE TSAR by Mangold and Summers:

...we built a funeral pyreof cut logs big enough to hold the bodies, two layers deep. We poured five bucketsof gasoline over the corpses, and two buckets ofsulphuric acid,and set the logs afire.

Sukhorukov in Last Act of A Tragedy p. 144:

We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so. For our sacrificial altar we got the last heir. The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia. After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburnt remainders, made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.

 

[AGRBear]

The posts are very long and I haven't the time to copy it all and repost it here.

It is simple to join my forum and read what is there.

I really wish I could open my forum so lurkers could see the information without joining, unfortunately, the forum was almost destroyed by hackers who had placed thousands of links to porn sites.

Here is what Yurovsky wrote in 1934 which is only a part:

>>I ordered that we begin the burning with Alexei. We laid his body down and soaked it with gasoline and quickly set it on fire, just to see if it would work, since no one knew how to go about this. At the same time, we were digging a grave about three arshins square. It was already morning. It was not possible for us to burn any more of the bodies, for the farmers and workers were beginning to be about, and therefore, we had to bury the remaining bodies in the grave. After they had been dumped into the pit, we covered them with acid, then dirt, and finally laid railroad ties over them. We then drove over it to help flatten it out. On the place where we had tried to burn the body, we dug another grave and threw the bones in. We built another fire over this grave to hide all traces. Then we kicked around the ashes to further blur the traces. The traces were covered. Thus Nicholas and his family were buried; by six everything was over. <<

Only a "single" body was burned and buried in this statement / memoirs.

So what happen to the second body? The one he thought was Alexandra's but admitted that it wasn't the Tsarina's but her maid's Demidova, which later proved wrong because both Alexandra and Demidova were found in the mass grave. A body is missing. A body the Russians claim is GD Marie and the American's believe was GD Anastasia.

The latest article from the Russians seem to be telling us they might have just the bones of Alexei and will return this summer to look for more...

This is the male bones they claim had the height of 4 feet 8 inches... But he was between 5 feet 2 inches and 5 feet 6 inches by July of 1918.... Or do they, now, claim the male was about 5 feet 2 inches... If they continue to claim the female remains are GD Marie's then the bones would show she was 5 feet 6 inches but they claim the bones show she was only 5 feet 2 inches... Confused? I am. I hope all this is explained in their report in July... or August, maybe, Sept. ?

AGRBear

PS As for the burning of the corpses, I've gone into depth of burning a body or bodies over on the AP where lurkers can view without joining my forum:
What Questions Would We Ask About The "New Grave" discovered 29 July 2007

I provide information about burning a body either on a stack of wood or with just gasoline

 

[J Kendrick]

>> as has already been said earlier in this thread, we
>> now know from the news reports published by Interfax
>> earlier this week that they still have not found all of
>> the missing members of the family.

Oh really? Where? All I saw was something from interfax badly translated from Russian that said something like that they had to keep looking to find out if one of the bodies had hemophilia. It was a big thing when they announced they were found an then identified, all over all the major news sources, I never head anything like that about your allegations!

Yes, Really. This is not an allegation. It is a reported fact, as posted here earlier in the week in a translation by "BorisRom" in post #139.

See: The Royal Forums - View Single Post - Have the remains of the Imperial Family been found?

There were two reports published by Interfax on Tuesday June 17th. Only one of those reports was translated by Interfax on their English language site. The first of those two reports in which Nikolai Nevolin has been quoted as saying that there not enough remains for two was only published in Russian.

See:http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=24962

Again, roughly translated from Russian, and this does not mean they haven't found the bodies! It might mean they are going back to look for more.

Translate it from the Russian any way that you like. Any way you cut it, it still means they have only found enough bone fragments for one.... which can only mean that one is still missing.

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Translate it from the Russian any way that you like. Any way you cut it, it still means they have only found enough bone fragments for one.... which can only mean that one is still missing.

JK

I really think the poor translation leaves an impression unintended by the writers. How do you explain the literally dozens of stories that say the remains were of 'a male 10-14 and a young woman about 20'? It's also been said that the skull was from the boy and the hip bone was from the girl. It's too soon to jump to conclusions, especially when testing is still being done.

For the record, surely it's Alexei you are saying is still missing, and Anastasia the one who is dead, right? (going by your theory of only one body)

 

[J Kendrick]

I really think the poor translation leaves an impression unintended by the writers. How do you explain the literally dozens of stories that say the remains were of 'a male 10-14 and a young woman about 20'? It's also been said that the skull was from the boy and the hip bone was from the girl.

Those stories were being reported in September and October of last year... based only on visual observations of the samples that had been made more than eight and nine months ago... before the DNA testing, which is now almost complete, had even been started.

The piece of skull in question has since been included in the most recent DNA work that has now been done in Moscow, in Ekaterinburg, at the US AFIP, the University of Massachusetts, and in Innsbruck, Austria... and Nikolai Nevolin has now said... after that testing has been done... that they do not have enough fragments for two.

Nikolai Nevolin's most recent public statements now make it clear that some of those initial visual observations of the bone fragments that were done before the DNA testing was started... have now proved -- after testing -- to be incorrect.

For the record, surely it's Alexei you are saying is still missing, and Anastasia the one who is dead, right? (going by your theory of only one body)

For the record, it is not my "theory"

It is Nikolai Nevolin... the official spokesman for the current DNA investigation... who has now said, after the testing, that they do not have enough bone fragments for two. Not me.

You have answered your own question by now having said: "...and the hip bone was from the girl".

We know for a fact that the largest of the 44 broken bone fragments is a piece of female pelvis. The only part of the human skeleton in which gender can be determined accurately by visual observation alone is the pelvis.

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Those stories were being reported in September and October of last year.

JK

What about this

DNA Confirms Remains Of Czar's Children, Bone Fragments Exhumed In Woods Settle Mystery of Royal Family Members Who Disappeared - CBS News

and all the other numerous news stories from late April- Early May of this year from all major networks, CNN, BBC, Yahoo, AP, etc...that verified the same thing, yet all you are going on is ONE obscure link from a religious Russian language site that may not even be translated right. If the story you posted is so true, why haven't all the major news services picked it up?

 

[ChatNoir]

What about this

DNA Confirms Remains Of Czar's Children, Bone Fragments Exhumed In Woods Settle Mystery of Royal Family Members Who Disappeared - CBS News

and all the other numerous news stories from late April- Early May of this year from all major networks, CNN, BBC, Yahoo, AP, etc...that verified the same thing, yet all you are going on is ONE obscure link from a religious Russian language site that may not even be translated right. If the story you posted is so true, why haven't all the major news services picked it up?

I am back with my usual question: What was the name of the lab that announced that the two children had been found?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Lab? It was the archeaologists, local authorities and the news services. Several labs are working on it, and will give their peer reviewed report when it's all finished.

I have a question for you Chat! Do you agree with JK that one body is found and one is still missing? If so, I'm sure you're at odds since JK obviously believes Alexei escaped and you'd say it was Anastasia. Right?

 

[J Kendrick]

What about this

DNA Confirms Remains Of Czar's Children, Bone Fragments Exhumed In Woods Settle Mystery of Royal Family Members Who Disappeared - CBS News

and all the other numerous news stories from late April- Early May of this year from all major networks, CNN, BBC, Yahoo, AP, etc...that verified the same thing, yet all you are going on is ONE obscure link from a religious Russian language site that may not even be translated right.

The statement that was quoted by the media back in April was made by Ekaterinburg Governor Edvard Rossel... who is not an official spokesman for the current investigation. Gov. Rossel was only claiming that he had been told the results by somebody else... who had been told by somebody else... which means, in fact, that Gov. Rossel's claim in April was actually nothing more than hearsay.

Gov. Rossel's then very public claim to have known the results back in April was also made before the testing at the US AFIP had been completed... and before the testing at Innsbruck, Austria had even started.

If the story you posted is so true, why haven't all the major news services picked it up?

For the very same reason that you didn't pick up on it either... because it was only published in Russian... and because it was deliberately worded in just such a way that it confuses the reader if they don't pay close attention to the details.

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

For the very same reason that you didn't pick up on it either... because it was only published in Russian... and because it was deliberately worded in just such a way that it confuses the reader if they don't pay close attention to the details.

JK

The other breaking stories also started out as Russian on interfax, too, but when they hit the major wires we knew they were for real. This one never did.

 

[J Kendrick]

The other breaking stories also started out as Russian on interfax, too, but when they hit the major wires we knew they were for real. This one never did.

Yes, but the fact this latest news story has not yet made it to the major wires... other than the Russian language Interfax... does not make it any the less real.

Just as Peter Kurth has explained elsewhere earlier this week, the news editors who skim through the wire stories coming though their news rooms will take just one quick look at it... think that they've reported this same subject two months before when Gov. Rossel had first made his still unverified claim back in April... and give it miss.... without ever spending the time to actually read carefully what Nikolai Nevolin is now saying.

To those in the newsrooms -- who really do not know the details of this story anywhere near as well as they should -- the past week's news report that they still haven't found any genetic evidence of haemophilia does look to them like fresh news. Any other mention of DNA and missing Romanovs, however, no longer stirs their interest... and if the news editors aren't interested... the chances are good that you're not going to hear about it.

If Nevolin had said outright that one is still missing... then that might have grabbed the headlines... but...

By deliberately saying it in the way that he did... by saying that they still don't have enough bones for two (which means the same thing)... almost nobody noticed.

Almost....

JK

 

[ChatNoir]

Lab? It was the archeaologists, local authorities and the news services. Several labs are working on it, and will give their peer reviewed report when it's all finished.

I have a question for you Chat! Do you agree with JK that one body is found and one is still missing? If so, I'm sure you're at odds since JK obviously believes Alexei escaped and you'd say it was Anastasia. Right?

In my humble opinion, those bones have NOTHING to do with the IF.

 

[J Kendrick]

I have a question for you Chat! Do you agree with JK that one body is found and one is still missing? If so, I'm sure you're at odds since JK obviously believes Alexei escaped and you'd say it was Anastasia. Right?

I did say that Nikolai Nevolin's statement of this past Tuesday does mean that one body is still missing, but I did not say that one body was found.

They must still prove that the fragments found last July are not just bones that have come from the bodies that were found in 1991.

They still must produce proof that the few bone fragments that they do now have from the discovery of last July are actually new evidence that is related by family to... but clearly different from ... the bones that were uncovered in the first burial pit.

JK

 

[lucien]

I did say that Nikolai Nevolin's statement of this past Tuesday does mean that one body is still missing, but I did not say that one body was found.

They must still prove that the fragments found last July are not just bones that have come from the bodies that were found in 1991.

They still must produce proof that the few bone fragments that they do now have from the discovery of last July are actually new evidence that is related by family to... but clearly different from ... the bones that were uncovered in the first burial pit.

JK

Sorry to spoil the fun for all conspiracy theorists/hack writers and pretending scientists but this much is for sure,there are sets of remains found,one a boy fitting Alyosha's age,the other a girl fitting Marie's age,that much is for certain.

Within the next thirty days an official statement will be released on the findings,until then,anything else is hasbash really,by those I mention at the start of this post.All will be revealed at this statement,all.