Edinburgh and Wessex Titles

[Iluvbertie]

To me the only thing I would like to see happen, with the Edinburgh title, if it isn't to be given to Edward as both Philip and The Queen wanted and Charles promised on Edward's wedding day would be for it to be declared to be the title for all future Consorts of a Queen Regnant. That would mean it wouldn't need to be recreated as it would be an automatic title when a Queen Regnant acceded to the throne and would be held by that person until their own death or the death of their spouse, whichever came first with a widower consort being styled as Duke of Edinburgh Emeritus.

 

[Toledo]

To me the only thing I would like to see happen, with the Edinburgh title, if it isn't to be given to Edward as both Philip and The Queen wanted and Charles promised on Edward's wedding day would be for it to be declared to be the title for all future Consorts of a Queen Regnant. That would mean it wouldn't need to be recreated as it would be an automatic title when a Queen Regnant acceded to the throne and would be held by that person until their own death or the death of their spouse, whichever came first with a widower consort being styled as Duke of Edinburgh Emeritus.

That would be a great solution!

 

[JR76]

No Charles can't make it a 'life peerage'. When the life peerage title act was passed it said that life peerages could only be a Baron/Baroness.

Thanks for clearing that out. I thought it was more of a custom than a set practice that all life peers are either baron or baroness,

 

[Sionevar]

To me the only thing I would like to see happen, with the Edinburgh title, if it isn't to be given to Edward as both Philip and The Queen wanted and Charles promised on Edward's wedding day would be for it to be declared to be the title for all future Consorts of a Queen Regnant. That would mean it wouldn't need to be recreated as it would be an automatic title when a Queen Regnant acceded to the throne and would be held by that person until their own death or the death of their spouse, whichever came first with a widower consort being styled as Duke of Edinburgh Emeritus.

The only risk here is if Scotland gains independence from the UK.

An independent Scotland might keep the monarchy, so the Queen Regnant in question would be Queen of Scotland and Queen of EW&NI separately and concurrently. The dukedom of Edinburgh could still be held by her spouse, but only with respect to his Scottish position. He would really need a new title in EW&NI. It would be a bit odd for him to be known as DoE there.

 

[Somebody]

I wonder if Prince Philip would have a change of mind had the Duke of York's scandals happened while he was both alive and aware of the news outside of his circle. I got the feeling QEII kept many bad news from his knowledge as hi health and mind deteriorated with age.

KCIII as the king, in the know and awareness of his brother's antics at a more personal level, should find another way to pay tribute to his father Prince Philip. He, King Charles, is the decision maker. He oversees the entire family to be kept in check and away from scandals that would reflect on his rule, William's and George's after him.

The dukedom of Edinburgh is not to be given away like an old chair, a toaster or any heirloom just because. Especially when the people of York are protesting to have their town name associated with the Duke of York.

Just imagine Andrew as the hereditary Duke of Edinburgh only because Prince Philip wanted him to have his title? He would be a tabloid ammunition leading to the next referendum in Scotland. Let's face it, Andrew's reputation has become so toxic he should be thanked and retired from The Firm. Then save or pass the Edinburgh title to another future generation, and possibly be gender neutral and non-hereditary so it can be reused on different lines.

I'd say that Edward has proven himself (and Sophie) to be reliable members of the royal family. So, while the recent second sons might have misbehaved that is no reason to withhold the ducal title from a younger son - while all others were given theirs.

That is not 'giving a way the title like an old chair' but continuing a royal tradition that sons of a monarch are given a dukedom (including the next generation - so feel free to change it for future generations; but not for the previous of which Edward is part) - and adhering to the expressed desire of the former queen and her husband who held the title for many decades.

 

[Toledo]

The only risk here is if Scotland gains independence from the UK.

An independent Scotland might keep the monarchy, so the Queen Regnant in question would be Queen of Scotland and Queen of EW&NI separately and concurrently. The dukedom of Edinburgh could still be held by her spouse, but only with respect to his Scottish position. He would really need a new title in EW&NI. It would be a bit odd for him to be known as DoE there.

If Scotland became an independent republic, would all Scottish titles held by English royals and aristocrats be invalidated? As in the new country placing a cease and desist on everything named for a title? Not to mention all Scottish aristocrats will also be invalidated

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thanks for clearing that out. I thought it was more of a custom than a set practice that all life peers are either baron or baroness,

I agree with that thought.

My understanding is that the Life Peerages Act 1958 was passed to empower the government to have the monarch appoint life peers to Parliament, not to eliminate the crown's prerogative to create other non-hereditary peerages.

As life peerages under the Life Peerages Act 1958 automatically have the rank of baron, the creation of a non-hereditary dukedom would be deemed not to have been a creation under that Act. As a result, the duke would not be entitled to a seat in the House of Lords. But that would not prevent the monarch from creating a non-hereditary dukedom outside of that Act.

Life Peerages Act 1958
1958 CHAPTER 21 6 and 7 Eliz 2

An Act to make provision for the creation of life peerages carrying the right to sit and vote in the House of Lords.

[30th April 1958]
1 Power to create life peerages carrying right to sit in the House of Lords.

(1) F1... Her Majesty shall have power by letters patent to confer on any person a peerage for life having the incidents specified in subsection (2) of this section.

(2) A peerage conferred under this section shall, during the life of the person on whom it is conferred, entitle him—

(a) to rank as a baron under such style as may be appointed by the letters patent; and

(b) subject to subsection (4) of this section, to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly,

and shall expire on his death.​

(3) A life peerage may be conferred under this section on a woman.

(4) Nothing in this section shall enable any person to receive a writ of summons to attend the House of Lords, or to sit and vote in that House, at any time when disqualified therefor by law.​

well Edward referred to it as a Pipe dream of his father's, so it sounds as if he 's not that keen on receiving it.

I would say "pipe dream" in this context sounds more as if the speaker believes it is not likely to happen (which would be the case indeed in 2021 if the decision had already been made by the time he was created Earl of Forfar in 2019, as wbenson and others speculated), than the speaker not being keen for it to happen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

This Act was the act that allowed the monarch to create Life Peers. That power didn't exist before 1958 and so any Life Peer has to met the criteria of this act. Thus a life peer can only be at the baron level.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

This Act was the act that allowed the monarch to create Life Peers. That power didn't exist before 1958 [...]

Here is a list of life peerages granted by English and British monarchs from 1377 to 1758:

Life Peerages

 

[Curryong]

The Fail is at it again! Now Princess Charlotte will be getting the Edinburgh title according to this article, replete with ‘a source said’ unnamed of course, and ‘it is expected’ etc. The King is saving it for his granddaughter!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...aving-Edinburgh-title-Princess-Charlotte.html

I wish there would be a short statement from the Palace, making it clear whether Edward will be getting the Edinburgh title or not. All this speculation is getting ridiculous.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The mere fact that the source is unnamed is not particularly "fail". Even for official announcements reported by the likes of the BBC, the palace generally communicates through unnamed sources.

However, this unnamed source does not truly claim that Charlotte will be getting the Edinburgh title. They only claim it is "the favored outcome", but at the same time admit that "discussions are under way" - i.e., that no such decision has actually been taken.

So, I agree that it appears to be pure speculation. Their justification for the speculation - that Edward is not in the direct line of succession - is also weak, as the same is true of Charlotte.

A source said: ‘Discussions are under way, but the favoured outcome for the King is that this title ought to go to Princess Charlotte.

‘It would be a fitting way to remember the Queen – who, of course, had the title Duchess of Edinburgh – and a way for His Majesty to honour the line of succession.’

[...]

A source said: ‘Charlotte’s position is historically significant because she is the first female member of the Royal Family whose place in the line of succession will not be surpassed by her younger brother.

‘So it is constitutionally significant that Charlotte should be given such a corresponding title, because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that she will accede the throne if, for example, Prince George does not have children.’

[...]


The move by the King to focus on the line of succession is significant, as Charles III plans a modernised, slimmed-down monarchy.

A Royal insider said: ‘It shows you what the King is thinking. It’s about promoting those directly in line to the throne rather than those on the edges.’

However, this section of the article is interesting, as I don't believe the previous leaks addressed the (potential) reaction from the Earl of Wessex:

A source close to Edward said that the lack of movement on him being granted the title Duke of Edinburgh from the King ‘had not gone unnoticed’.

Now discussions are taking place at the Palace as to what title, if any, Edward will be awarded under the new reign. While the Wessexes are said to be ‘relaxed’ about titles, it will no doubt come as a blow. Should Edward be granted a Dukedom it would stay in his family. At present, his children are styled Lady Louise and Viscount Severn.

[...] A Buckingham Palace spokesman declined to comment last night.

 

[Toledo]

The title Duke of Edinburgh should be kept and reused like the nice dishware in our home, for special occasions. I would be happy if it's given to Charlote to emphasize that she is to be the first woman in the history of the UK monarchy that doesn't have to take a back seat to the boys born after her.

Edward can get an upgraded title, but Edinburgh is too grand, and King Charles III is the boss now, he decides his direct line is a priority over side lines.

 

[Molly2101]

The title Duke of Edinburgh should be kept and reused like the nice dishware in our home, for special occasions. I would be happy if it's given to Charlote to emphasize that she is to be the first woman in the history of the UK monarchy that doesn't have to take a back seat to the boys born after her.

Edward can get an upgraded title, but Edinburgh is too grand, and King Charles III is the boss now, he decides his direct line is a priority over side lines.

If it’s “too grand” as you say, why would the queen and Philip want Edward to have the title upon their deaths and allow him to become so invested in the DoE award?

Philip clearly wanted Edward to have the title; Edward and Sophie said in their interview with the Telegraph that he approached them after their engagement to say he eventually wanted Edward to have the title.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I agree. If the DoE wanted his title to pass to his youngest son, that is exactly where it should go. Edward and Sophie have kept their heads down, raised their children well and been two of the steadiest hands in the BRF.

They don't deserve this latest slight from Charles (if it's true).

Other than being a cute little girl, what has Charlotte done to merit Edinburgh and why does she need it??

 

[MARG]

The Fail is at it again! Now Princess Charlotte will be getting the Edinburgh title according to this article, replete with ‘a source said’ unnamed of course, and ‘it is expected’ etc. The King is saving it for his granddaughter!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...aving-Edinburgh-title-Princess-Charlotte.html

I wish there would be a short statement from the Palace, making it clear whether Edward will be getting the Edinburgh title or not. All this speculation is getting ridiculous.

It is way past time that the Machine that is the BRF got with the programme so to speak. It needs to be dragged (probably kicking and screaming) into the 21st Century. Never Complain, Never Explain, can no longer be their excuse for everything. It is feeble and makes them look impotent and so unsure of their decisions that they leak them to take the public temperature of the public before they do anything.

This method of dissemination of information went the way of the dodo decades ago and is certainly not fit for purpose in the world of instant access and dissemination of news. While everyone keeps talking about the notion of the BRF being "slimmed down", I cannot help but snigger at the notion that they believe it will happen.

It is time for Buckingham Palace to own its leaks so the people of the UK and Commonwealth can have a reasonable belief that a statement from Buckingham Palace is either a message from the King or authorised by him, full stop. The same goes for Kensington Palace statements being released or approved for release by the Prince of Wales.

On top of this, it is essential that the King follow through on the well-known wishes of both his parents, in this case, creating the Earl of Wessex Duke of Edinburgh, a position for which Prince Philip groomed him. It is within King Charles's purview to elevate his younger brother and this dragging along is making room for what is merely the Fail's latest "Breaking News" that Charlotte is the latest contender.

 

[Alisa]

Brava Marg!
I echo your sentiments exactly!!

 

[Claire]

You can expect that PR to move quick along the rest of the publication - the spin came from BP directly.

 

[Meee]

To me the only thing I would like to see happen, with the Edinburgh title, if it isn't to be given to Edward as both Philip and The Queen wanted and Charles promised on Edward's wedding day would be for it to be declared to be the title for all future Consorts of a Queen Regnant. That would mean it wouldn't need to be recreated as it would be an automatic title when a Queen Regnant acceded to the throne and would be held by that person until their own death or the death of their spouse, whichever came first with a widower consort being styled as Duke of Edinburgh Emeritus.

This is one of the two things that I can see happening with Edinburgh, and which would explain Edward’s ‘pipe dream of my father’s’ comments. At the time of the original agreement, it wasn’t known that succession would be gender neutral within 15 years to eventually create a purpose for the Dukedom of Edinburgh in this way, that would honour both the late Queen and the late DoE as they were the first.

It’s a little odd that the Duke of Edinburgh awards are run by someone who isn’t the DoE when the title is available, but the moment it is given to Edward, it will eventually go to James rather than someone closer to the throne. They will be aware of the Dukedoms that are soon to be non-royal and in time, that would happen to Edinburgh under the original plans (unless of course it is a lifetime only grant to Edward, after which it would be available for use by future consorts.) Of course the future consorts won’t (or are very unlikely to be) descendants of Philip’s so there would be a need to acknowledge they were going against his wishes to a degree.

My other thought was Louis. There is a role for a firstborn and a daughter, monarch and Princess Royal, but nothing for a second son as such (as said above, there are a lot of Dukes, so it’s not as special a title/role.) Giving Louis DoE instead would be a prestigious role for him rather than wondering what to do with him. Philip made DoE his own but not everybody granted a Dukedom would be able to build something up from scratch; also with the Queen’s children, there were two without roles as such (Andrew and Edward,) while it seems that Louis will be alone in that, as Harry was. If DoE goes to Louis, it still continues among Philip’s descendants. Wessex, as highlighted probably means more to Edward to pass down himself. If DoE were created exactly as before, he would probably feel it should go to Louise given her bond with the late DoE, but she would be ineligible despite being the eldest. Ultimately they were brought up without the expectation of a Royal role, so he probably thinks it’s best not to burden either of his children with it. Whoever is the next DoE, they’ve got big shoes to fill.

 

[Silverpot]

Could this, seemingly, reluctance to transfer the title to Edward have something to do with Scotland possibly leaving the UK?

Wouldn't it be odd to have a prince/ess of England to hold a Scotish title?

 

[Denville]

It seems obvious to me anyway that the PTB are holding off at the moment on that particular title because of the possiblity of Scotland leaving.

 

[Somebody]

This is one of the two things that I can see happening with Edinburgh, and which would explain Edward’s ‘pipe dream of my father’s’ comments. At the time of the original agreement, it wasn’t known that succession would be gender neutral within 15 years to eventually create a purpose for the Dukedom of Edinburgh in this way, that would honour both the late Queen and the late DoE as they were the first.

It’s a little odd that the Duke of Edinburgh awards are run by someone who isn’t the DoE when the title is available, but the moment it is given to Edward, it will eventually go to James rather than someone closer to the throne. They will be aware of the Dukedoms that are soon to be non-royal and in time, that would happen to Edinburgh under the original plans (unless of course it is a lifetime only grant to Edward, after which it would be available for use by future consorts.) Of course the future consorts won’t (or are very unlikely to be) descendants of Philip’s so there would be a need to acknowledge they were going against his wishes to a degree.

My other thought was Louis. There is a role for a firstborn and a daughter, monarch and Princess Royal, but nothing for a second son as such (as said above, there are a lot of Dukes, so it’s not as special a title/role.) Giving Louis DoE instead would be a prestigious role for him rather than wondering what to do with him. Philip made DoE his own but not everybody granted a Dukedom would be able to build something up from scratch; also with the Queen’s children, there were two without roles as such (Andrew and Edward,) while it seems that Louis will be alone in that, as Harry was. If DoE goes to Louis, it still continues among Philip’s descendants. Wessex, as highlighted probably means more to Edward to pass down himself. If DoE were created exactly as before, he would probably feel it should go to Louise given her bond with the late DoE, but she would be ineligible despite being the eldest. Ultimately they were brought up without the expectation of a Royal role, so he probably thinks it’s best not to burden either of his children with it. Whoever is the next DoE, they’ve got big shoes to fill.

But why Louis and not Edward. Edward is the youngest son of the former duke and queen who reigned for 70 years. Louis is the youngest son of the heir... and hopefully one day will rise to the position of youngest son of a monarch.

So, if it is not reserved as the unofficial title for future husbands of queen reignants as Iluvbertie suggested I see no reason at all to give it to someone else than Edward whom was promised this title a long time ago and has served the monarchy faithfully over the years.

 

[Granada]

I really like and respect Edward and Sophie and hope they get the prestigious Edinburgh Title. It was promised to them, and it was the wish of Prince Philip that Edward succeed him. So what if it passes to James, and then his potential sons down the line? He is Elizabeth and Philip's much loved grandson.

Many Duchy Titles are passing "out" of the HRH Royal connection anyways. Gloucester and Kent are also. Both present Dukes are grandsons of George V.
Eventually York would have also, had Andrew had a son. Funny and interesting how historically York keeps reverting back to The Crown.

I too hope that Buckingham Palace comes out and clarifies WHATEVER Charles intentions are. Just get it out there soon. I will say this though that I find interesting, Edward and Sophie were promised that Title around the time of their marriage and have admirably served The Firm and the Duke of Edinburgh Organization. Now there seems to be a question mark ?

At the time of Charles and Camilla's marriage, it was made public that Camilla would be known as The Princess Consort, NOT Queen.
Personally, I'm glad that She got the Title, but I hope that Charles isn't being petty for *some* reason and not giving Edward what he was promised.
I also am not buying the Charlotte as Duchess Of Edinburgh story one bit.

But maybe that article will encourage Charles to make a decision, one way or the other and just move on. He certainly has controversies enough with other family members.Titles wise.
The dithering on this does him no favors as it seems public opinion is solidly behind Edward and Sophie assuming this upgrade and honor.

 

[Alison H]

I think most people feel that Edward and Sophie deserve the “upgrade”, and it will be 20 years before there’s any thought of dukedoms for Charlotte or Louis.

 

[muriel]

The dithering on this does him no favors as it seems public opinion is solidly behind Edward and Sophie assuming this upgrade and honor.

The lack of a clear line from BP does not necessarily indicate dithering. There may be a few moving parts that Charles may be awaiting clarity on before making any announcements.

I do think the issues relating to Scottish nationalism and the possibility of it leaving the UK within the next few decades plays a key part in deciding whether to create anybody DoE, especially somebody as close a relative to the King as Edward is. Perhaps Edward could be created Duke of Wessex.

 

[Saragli]

I think we are forgetting that by the time the Earl was given the Forfar title, and the backtracking on the Edinburgh title began, the DoE and Queen were still very much alive and in charge of things. So whatever is happening with the DoE title was already happening during the previous reign. There may also be more happening behind the scenes in regards to titles that we are not aware of i.e. making them only titles for life and gender equal like in Sweden, that need clearing up before bestowing any new titles.

The "leaks" from "sources" is annoying and I hope that does become a thing of the past but we will simply have to wait and see what happens. I personally hope that the Wessex's do get elevated to a Dukedom - I would love to see them get the Edinburgh title - but that is all up to the Fount of Honours HM the King now.

 

[Somebody]

The lack of a clear line from BP does not necessarily indicate dithering. There may be a few moving parts that Charles may be awaiting clarity on before making any announcements.

I do think the issues relating to Scottish nationalism and the possibility of it leaving the UK within the next few decades plays a key part in deciding whether to create anybody DoE, especially somebody as close a relative to the King as Edward is. Perhaps Edward could be created Duke of Wessex.

They all have Scottish titles, so if it wasn't a reason in 2011 nor 2018 to forgo giving a Scottish title to William and especially Harry (whose titles will live on, unlike William's) there is no reason to know backtrack because of the Scottish origin of the title imho. Edward himself is quarter Scottish as well - as his maternal grandmother is from the Scottish nobility.

If it was just about making Edward a Duke that could have happened at their wedding; the whole point of postponing that creation was for him to get the DoE-title. It would be much more illogical and unexplainable for anybody else than the one whom it was promised to and who has taken over Prince Philip's role in the Duke of Edinburgh awards scheme to be given the title.

 

[sophie25]

They all have Scottish titles, so if it wasn't a reason in 2011 nor 2018 to forgo giving a Scottish title to William and especially Harry (whose titles will live on, unlike William's) there is no reason to know backtrack because of the Scottish origin of the title imho. Edward himself is quarter Scottish as well - as his maternal grandmother is from the Scottish nobility.

If it was just about making Edward a Duke that could have happened at their wedding; the whole point of postponing that creation was for him to get the DoE-title. It would be much more illogical and unexplainable for anybody else than the one whom it was promised to and who has taken over Prince Philip's role in the Duke of Edinburgh awards scheme to be given the title.

You are right. The only reason Edward wasn't made a Duke on his wedding day was because he was to be Duke of Edinburgh in the future. I cannot believe that Charles is renaiging on this, I think it's terrible.

 

[Somebody]

I think we are forgetting that by the time the Earl was given the Forfar title, and the backtracking on the Edinburgh title began, the DoE and Queen were still very much alive and in charge of things. So whatever is happening with the DoE title was already happening during the previous reign. There may also be more happening behind the scenes in regards to titles that we are not aware of i.e. making them only titles for life and gender equal like in Sweden, that need clearing up before bestowing any new titles.

That doesn't say that they agreed but only that the queen might have been aware of Charles's hesitance in keeping the arrangement, so she made sure that he would at least have a Scottish title, as she couldn't control Charles's actions after her death (and her death was necessary for the title to be available).

Had the Queen and Prince Philip agreed that Edward was no longer to get the Duke of Edinburgh title, they could easily have made it known - just like the queen did regarding Camilla's title.

And if the intention is to 'clean up' the system, they should start from the next generation (whom also is the first to be affected by the changes in the line of succession), but the current youngest adults (William and Harry) already received their dukedom, so Edward, who is from the former generation, is the only one to be resolved.

The "leaks" from "sources" is annoying and I hope that does become a thing of the past but we will simply have to wait and see what happens. I personally hope that the Wessex's do get elevated to a Dukedom - I would love to see them get the Edinburgh title - but that is all up to the Fount of Honours HM the King now.

Whom already agreed to give his youngest brother this title. There was a reason he was included in the announcement in 1999.

While some might point to him backtracking his previous announced intention for Camilla, in that case he did 'more' than he promised: instead of being the Princess Consort, she is now the Queen Consort. In Edward's case it would be a demotion instead of an elevation.

 

[muriel]

They all have Scottish titles, so if it wasn't a reason in 2011 nor 2018 to forgo giving a Scottish title to William and especially Harry (whose titles will live on, unlike William's) there is no reason to know backtrack because of the Scottish origin of the title imho. Edward himself is quarter Scottish as well - as his maternal grandmother is from the Scottish nobility.

William and Harry have Scottish titles as their secondary titles, not their primary titles, which are English. The Duke of Edinburgh title will be the senior title for Edward, if it were given to him. In the event of Scottish independence, he will then have, as his primary title, a dukedom of a foreign country.

If it was just about making Edward a Duke that could have happened at their wedding; the whole point of postponing that creation was for him to get the DoE-title. It would be much more illogical and unexplainable for anybody else than the one whom it was promised to and who has taken over Prince Philip's role in the Duke of Edinburgh awards scheme to be given the title.

The monarchy was not in a great state in 1999, after almost of decade of the War of the Wales', and other difficulties. It was perceived that there was no public appetite for another Dukedom being created. Things are in a substantially better position now for the RF.

 

[Saragli]

That doesn't say that they agreed but only that the queen might have been aware of Charles's hesitance in keeping the arrangement, so she made sure that he would at least have a Scottish title, as she couldn't control Charles's actions after her death (and her death was necessary for the title to be available).

If they Queen and DoE were already aware that Charles wasn't going to give Edward the DoE title they could have given him a Dukedom then instead of just another Earldom. But they did not.