Edinburgh and Wessex Titles

[Somebody]

Let me update this overview by Duc_et_Pair for clarification.


1st creation 1726
The Prince Frederick, 1st Duke of Edinburgh (later Prince of Wales)
The Prince George, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (later King George III)
merged with the crown on 25 October 1760

2nd creation 1866
The Prince Alfred, 1st Duke of Edinburgh (later known as Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha)
extinct upon Prince Alfred's death on 30 July 1900 - his only son died one year prior to him

3rd creation 1947
The Prince Philip, 1st Duke of Edinburgh
The Prince Charles, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (known as The Prince of Wales, later king Charles III)
merged with the crown on 8 September 2022

 

[Iluvbertie]

That is incorrect. Charles inherited the title Duke of Edinburgh from his father. Upon the death of his mother and him becoming king, that title has merged with the crown, so it is no longer his. Therefore, he is able to recreate it for Edward as was agreed upon in the run up to Edward's marriage.

And the Cambridges still have the title Duke and Duchess of Cambridge (as well as the added title of Duke and Duchess of Cornwall but won't use it anymore) as the Prince of Wales is considered the more senior title.

William will use Cornwall when doing anything to do with the Duchy e.g. when attending Duchy of Cornwall meetings in London. They will both use Cornwall when visiting Cornwall or any Duchy property.

They will use Rothesay when in Scotland other than when visiting 'the Isles' when William will use Lord of the Isles.

Assuming that the normal secondary title is included in the LPs creating William as Prince of Wales then when visiting Chester they will use Earl and Countess of Chester.

The titles they won't use anymore are those William was given on his wedding day as everywhere they would use those titles they now have more senior titles to use.

 

[cmsteepy]

Thank you for cleaning up the symantics but your last sentence actually answered the question. I'll go follow on that page.

 

[Kataryn]

Just read on twitter the question by The Independant, if Charles will grant his father's wish to recreate the Edinburgh-title for Rdward.



IMHO he will, because I believe Charles understood his father's frustration very well, feeling like an "amoebia" within the palace, good enough to offer his sperm but not much else. I think Charles respects his father's legacy with the DoE Award scheme (apart from a lot of other things the Duke was occupied) and sees that it makes sense to give the title to his youngest brother who has worked so hard for the Duke#s projects.



It's just: the public has to understand that, too. That might be considered a problem when Edward is th youngest of the family. And isn't it an idea worth thinking through to leave the "Duke of Edinburgh" as he was, as prince Philip from the old dynasty of "Oldcastle" (Oldenburg hihi, just imagine Philip had gone with that name instead of his mother's Mountbatten? Imagine the family of "Old Castle Windsor" and how the media would have loved this!!) Philip had done his duty so perfectly and kept his wife happy, though he suffered with certain aspects - isn't he worth to be remembered as "The Duke" and not the first of the Mountbatten-Windsors with this name.


So whatever Charles decides, it should be respected. But of course it is true that his brother deserves a dukedom. But does it have to be the Edinburgh-one?

 

[Stefan]

So whatever Charles decides, it should be respected. But of course it is true that his brother deserves a dukedom. But does it have to be the Edinburgh-one?

But then he could have been given a Dukedom on his Wedding Day like all the others.

 

[W.Y.CII]

I don't think Edward will be given a dukedom other than Edinburgh as well honestly. He either will remain as EoW or receive DoE.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So whatever Charles decides, it should be respected. But of course it is true that his brother deserves a dukedom. But does it have to be the Edinburgh-one?

It was publicly announced that that was the wish of both Elizabeth and Philip so yes it would have to be Edinburgh.

 

[Meee]

It was publicly announced that that was the wish of both Elizabeth and Philip so yes it would have to be Edinburgh.

This.

Also, it’s not like Charles needs it to be free, both his sons have Dukedoms and if he wanted it for Louis’s eventual use, couldn’t he just create it as grantee only, so that it is returned to The Crown upon Edward’s death rather than becoming non-Royal in time like the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent will.

 

[Somebody]

But then he could have been given a Dukedom on his Wedding Day like all the others.

Exactly. The only reason that didn't happen was for him to eventually receive the Duke of Edinburgh title (as a new creation) after both his parents would have passed away (as that was required for the title to become available again).

This.

Also, it’s not like Charles needs it to be free, both his sons have Dukedoms and if he wanted it for Louis’s eventual use, couldn’t he just create it as grantee only, so that it is returned to The Crown upon Edward’s death rather than becoming non-Royal in time like the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent will.

The whole point of Philip's wish was that it would continue to live on among his descendants (and we don't know whether James will have any sons, so if it will leave the immediate royal family or that it might end with him - the same for the Duke of Gloucester - there are two more generations but each consists of only 1 son, so it is somewhat likely that it will die out at one point). His eldest son would take over his wife's titles and responsibilities, so he really liked the idea that one of his other children would continue his heritage, in this case Edward who already took over the Duke of Edinburgh Awards as a clear sign of continuing his heritage.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The source of the rumor was an anonymous acquaintance of the then-Prince of Wales who spoke to Roya Nikkhah, royal editor for The Times, in July 2021.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-but-his-brother-is-not-on-his-side-77v25z3b0
https://archive.ph/0XuTJ

A representative of the then Prince of Wales replied to the claims, stating that "no final decisions have been taken".

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."​

https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/

Of course, "no final decisions" is not an outright rejection of his parents' wishes, but it is a step back from the unambiguous statement in 1999 that Prince Charles had "agreed" to honor his parents' wishes:

"The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown."​

https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...ews/title_of_hrh_the_prince_edward/40309.html

I think it's noteworthy that the Earl of Wessex himself expressed doubt about whether his brother would follow through on the 1999 agreement:

In an interview with the BBC last month [June 2021] to mark what would have been Philip’s 100th birthday, he was asked: “You will be the next Duke of Edinburgh, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, that is quite something to take on?”

Edward replied: “It was fine in theory, ages ago when it was sort of a pipe dream of my father’s . . . and of course it will depend on whether or not the Prince of Wales, when he becomes king, whether he’ll do that, so we’ll wait and see. So yes, it will be quite a challenge taking that on.”

But I hope the King will keep his word and honor his father's wish and memory.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I think it's noteworthy that the Earl of Wessex himself expressed doubt about whether his brother would follow through on the 1999 agreement:

In an interview with the BBC last month [June 2021] to mark what would have been Philip’s 100th birthday, he was asked: “You will be the next Duke of Edinburgh, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, that is quite something to take on?”

Edward replied: “It was fine in theory, ages ago when it was sort of a pipe dream of my father’s . . . and of course it will depend on whether or not the Prince of Wales, when he becomes king, whether he’ll do that, so we’ll wait and see. So yes, it will be quite a challenge taking that on.”

I think it was difficult for both Charles and Edward to definitively declare what Charles would do because the final action was contingent on their mother's death. Obviously, I don't know but I would be very surprised if Charles didn't at least make the offer to Edward.

[edited to remove a question - I found the answer[

 

[Iluvbertie]

James' children would not become HRHs as they won't be male line grandchildren of a sovereign (he is but his children won't be). His children will be styled like the children of the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent as they will be the same generation from a sovereign.

George V - Henry/George - Richard/Edward - children of Richard/Edward

Elizabeth II - Edward - James - children of James.

 

[bekalc]

Just read on twitter the question by The Independant, if Charles will grant his father's wish to recreate the Edinburgh-title for Rdward.



IMHO he will, because I believe Charles understood his father's frustration very well, feeling like an "amoebia" within the palace, good enough to offer his sperm but not much else. I think Charles respects his father's legacy with the DoE Award scheme (apart from a lot of other things the Duke was occupied) and sees that it makes sense to give the title to his youngest brother who has worked so hard for the Duke#s projects.



It's just: the public has to understand that, too. That might be considered a problem when Edward is th youngest of the family. And isn't it an idea worth thinking through to leave the "Duke of Edinburgh" as he was, as prince Philip from the old dynasty of "Oldcastle" (Oldenburg hihi, just imagine Philip had gone with that name instead of his mother's Mountbatten? Imagine the family of "Old Castle Windsor" and how the media would have loved this!!) Philip had done his duty so perfectly and kept his wife happy, though he suffered with certain aspects - isn't he worth to be remembered as "The Duke" and not the first of the Mountbatten-Windsors with this name.


So whatever Charles decides, it should be respected. But of course it is true that his brother deserves a dukedom. But does it have to be the Edinburgh-one?

It’s what Phillip wanted. He wanted the title to live on with his descendants where it wouldn’t be an afterthought. He was really clear about it.

Plus Edward and Sophie have been really good to Charles. Standing behind him doing their part but not clamoring for more.

It makes sense to give his Dad his long cherished wish it costs Charles nothing. Other Dukedoms he can give his grandsons.

 

[Claire]

Personally I feel they will wait till after the coronation to test the mood of the Scots. Essentially that is what this all comes down to. There was plans in Downing Street to setup Anne and the Wessex's as Scottish facing royals but Charles vetoed it. Scotland will be on of Charles special project for the next year. So it comes down to it - will a new Dukedom damage or improve his cause. At the time - it is simply a wait and see.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think it was difficult for both Charles and Edward to definitively declare what Charles would do because the final action was contingent on their mother's death. Obviously, I don't know but I would be very surprised if Charles didn't at least make the offer to Edward.

[edited to remove a question - I found the answer[

I see it all as diplomatic talk because of

1 - the creation of Edward first needs a sad event
2 - in no any way Edward would "mow the grass away before his brother's feet", with that saying that he fully acknowledges it is all in "His Majesty's most gracious will and pleasure" and in no any way he would put any milligram of pressure or influence on the King to enforce him into doing anything


I expect Edward will become HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Forfar, Viscount Severn and also be given the The Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle ( I saw he still has not that Order) in connection with that Scottish Dukedom.

 

[Meee]

Also, it was not certain that Charles would accede; a monarch has outlived their son before and been succeeded by a grandson. Perhaps with health advances that is less likely than in the past, but it cannot be ruled out. Had William succeeded his grandmother, I’d have put lower odds on Edward being created DoE: he wasn’t party to the agreement and has a ‘spare’ he might wish to give the title to. Edinburgh is likely the most prestigious simply due to the former Duke’s work and legacy.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Also, it was not certain that Charles would accede; a monarch has outlived their son before and been succeeded by a grandson. Perhaps with health advances that is less likely than in the past, but it cannot be ruled out. Had William succeeded his grandmother, I’d have put lower odds on Edward being created DoE: he wasn’t party to the agreement and has a ‘spare’ he might wish to give the title to. Edinburgh is likely the most prestigious simply due to the former Duke’s work and legacy.

That is true, theoretically the late Queen could have outlived Charles and then we would have seen a HRH Prince William as the 3rd Duke of Edinburgh, 1st Duke of Cambridge, 3rd Earl of Merioneth, 1st Earl of Strathearn, 3rd Baron Greenwich, 1st Baron Carrickfergus as Heir to his grandmother The Queen.

Then it was not a King Charles III but a King William V to decide on an eventual Dukedom of Edinburgh for his uncle, Prince Edward. Any talk of "he MUST do this or that" is empty as life sometimes does not follow an expected path.

 

[rominet09]

I really hope Sophie and Edward will get that fabulous new title.

 

[Denville]

I really hope Sophie and Edward will get that fabulous new title.

Why? It would be the queens wish that one of Phil's sons should inherit his title but with the various political and nationalistic feelings, it might be more prudent to not give him that particular title. Of course Chalres would wish to follow the queen's wishes but if Scotland were to leave the union, it might be more tactful not to pronounce Edward a Scottish duke in the next year or 2.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I take the point made by US Royal Watcher and Duc_et_Pair about Prince Edward perhaps finding it more emotionally challenging to make statements about the next reign at the time of his interview in 2021 (when the Queen's health was in decline) than at the time of the definitively-worded announcement in 1999 (when the end of her reign must have seemed far away).

I don't think the 2021 answer (“It was fine in theory, ages ago when it was sort of a pipe dream of my father’s . . . and of course it will depend on whether or not the Prince of Wales, when he becomes king, whether he’ll do that, so we’ll wait and see. So yes, it will be quite a challenge taking that on.”) contemplated the possibility of Charles predeceasing William. The phrase "when he becomes king, whether he'll do that" seems to clearly be addressing doubts about what the then-Prince of Wales would do if he became King.

There was plans in Downing Street to setup Anne and the Wessex's as Scottish facing royals but Charles vetoed it.

What is your source?

Why? It would be the queens wish that one of Phil's sons should inherit his title but with the various political and nationalistic feelings, it might be more prudent to not give him that particular title. Of course Chalres would wish to follow the queen's wishes but if Scotland were to leave the union, it might be more tactful not to pronounce Edward a Scottish duke in the next year or 2.

The Scottish National Party was already in power when Prince Edward was created Earl of Forfar, weren't they?

 

[Denville]

why would Downing St do such a thing nad why would Charles do such a thing

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

By my understanding Scottish Independence does not at all mean republicanism.

Both Alex Salmond as well Nicola Sturgeon stated to be proud to have Elizabeth as "Queen of Scots" indeed.

King Charles III would not loose a throne (that of the Union) but actually gain a throne: that of the revived Kingdom of Scotland. On itself no hindrance for Scottish titles as Duke of Edinburgh.

Of course said Union would then comprise England, Wales and Northern Ireland, but okay.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if the king will ever make Sophie a Princess in her own right ?

After though is that he's have to follow suit with Catherine,Megan,Marie-Christine and Brigitte.

 

[Alison H]

The latest polls show that the majority support Scotland remaining within the Union anyway, but, as you say, there's no reason that Scottish independence would mean a republic, any more than, say, Canadian independence did. And Charles is King of Scots by virtue of his descent from James I and VI.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The latest polls show that the majority support Scotland remaining within the Union anyway, but, as you say, there's no reason that Scottish independence would mean a republic, any more than, say, Canadian independence did. And Charles is King of Scots by virtue of his descent from James I and VI.

By my understanding Charles III is neither King of England nor King of Scots. These proud titles became dormant (or really non-existent ?) with the Union.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I wonder if the king will ever make Sophie a Princess in her own right ?

After though is that he's have to follow suit with Catherine,Megan,Marie-Christine and Brigitte.

And Katherine (Kent)

 

[Denville]

The latest polls show that the majority support Scotland remaining within the Union anyway, but, as you say, there's no reason that Scottish independence would mean a republic, any more than, say, Canadian independence did. And Charles is King of Scots by virtue of his descent from James I and VI.

I think the situation is volatile, and it's possible that the Scots will end up iwht a republic as the Irish did. Edward's remarks seem to suggest that he's not that bothered about being Duke of Edin, except to please his father and if Charles thinks better of the idea, he would be fine with taking another dukedom or remaining as Eearl of Wessex.

 

[Denville]

I wonder if the king will ever make Sophie a Princess in her own right ?

After though is that he's have to follow suit with Catherine,Megan,Marie-Christine and Brigitte.

why? Its not British tradtion and it would mean a lot of extra princesses.

 

[An Ard Ri]

why? Its not British tradtion and it would mean a lot of extra princesses.

Was just a thought regarding Sophie given her high profile!
The king has often spoke of modernizing the monarchy and all of the above are Princesses by marriage but all but one's husbands happens to have a peerage.

 

[Denville]

There are enough royals and enough honours around. Im sure Charles has no desire to add to them.