Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 1: August 2010- 2022


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:previous:I guess that means the wifes of Archduke Imre of Austria and Lord Frederick of Windsor.
 
Lord and Lady Frederick Windsor
Archduke and Archduchess Imre and Kathleen of Habsburg-Lothringen
 
Yes, I see. Thank you. 2016 will be really exciting for us royal watchers and for royal families themselves!:)
 
Great news! Maybe a boy?
I would love also another baby for their sister Carolina...
 
Congratulations to the couple! We royal watchers have an exciting year ahead of us. :flowers:
 
HRH princess Sybil de Bourbon Parme attended the Ingraham Debuts New collection at LARS BOLANDER'S STUDIO 1696 Pop-Up Shop Event at West Palm Beach.

PPE

PPE Agency
 
From the beginning on there was a thick fog around the pregnancy of Brigitte Klynstra. The Prince communicated that it was "an independent decision by Ms Klynstra to become a mother" (??). And in the article the Prince said that it brings memories back to "a very hurtful time". The mystery only gets bigger. There were rumours about IVF. Anyway, Hugo has a very big chance to become a Prince de Bourbon de Parme indeed. Any biological child with a known and proven father can request to get the surname from the father. This request can be made from the age of 18 until the age of 22 is reached (Civic Code). When no request is made in that period, the existing surname (here it is Klynstra) is considered unchangeable and permanent. Nobility is hereditary, also for children born outside marriage (Nobility Act). When the surname is allowed to the biological son, the title of Prince can not be debued.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
From the beginning on there was a thick fog around the pregnancy of Brigitte Klynstra. The Prince communicated that it was "an independent decision by Ms Klynstra to become a mother" (??). And in the article the Prince said that it brings memories back to "a very hurtful time". The mystery only gets bigger. There were rumours about IVF. Anyway, Hugo has a very big chance to become a Prince de Bourbon de Parme indeed. Any biological child with a known and proven father can request to get the surname from the father. This request can be made from the age of 18 until the age of 22 is reached (Civic Code). When no request is made in that period, the existing surname (here it is Klynstra) is considered unchangeable and permanent. Nobility is hereditary, also for children born outside marriage (Nobility Act). When the surname is allowed to the biological son, the title of Prince can not be debued.
Click to expand...

A strange statement indeed. The deed always involves two people. :ROFLMAO:
 
It is in the same article:

"I have learned that Hugo Klynstra has made such a request. At my initiative that request is now subject of a proceeding. For me it is about a personal matter with a verdrietige (= can be translated as sorrowful, hurtful, woeful, plaintive) background. So I refrain from a further explanation and hope the media will respect the privacy and therefore the calm (peace, quiet) of my family life."

So apparently Hugo Klynstra has made a formal request to Department of Justice, to have his surname changed. Such a change needs to be approved by Royal Decree, signed by Hugo's first cousin once removed: the King...

In the Civic Code the change of surnames is pretty difficult, I must say. The lawmaker clearly wants to disencourage people from starting changing surnames. What are the grounds for the Prince to start a procedure? The Civic Code says that an adult (Hugo Klynstra) can only start a request for the surname of his parent when "after the end of the marrriage or the relationship-outside-marriage there has been a period in which the parent in question (here: the Prince) has been the tutor, the carer for the requestant". The data from the municipal registration must show that the requestant has been living together with the parent in question. By my knowledge the Prince has never had a relationship with Ms Klynstra when Hugo was born neither has he ever lived with Hugo.

This booklet (in Dutch) gives all rules: https://www.justis.nl/Images/brochure-naamswijziging-(december-2015)_tcm123-591289.pdf

When the Department of Justice agrees with the request for a name change, then Hugo can request the nobility too, as the Nobility Act says that nobility is also hereditary for children born outside marriage. The nobility is connected to a surname. There is no Prince Klynstra. There is a Prince de Bourbon de Parme. When the request for the surname-change is given, the request can be made for the nobility. (Sometimes people only want the surname and have no interest in the nobility, and are therefore not known with a title).
 
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What a coincidence given our discussion on the subject just a few days ago. Thank you, btw, for your kind explanations about it.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
 
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The problem with surname and recognition is the same as with Delphine Boël in Belgium. In both countries 'only a change' is not enough. There needs to have been a certain real parentship. For Belgian law it is simple: Jonkheer Jacques Boël is the father of Delphine. He has recognized her, she has lived under his roof, in everything he has been the de-facto father, Delphine is his heir. That is why it is not simple to point to someone and say: he once slept with my mother, I want his surname and his recognition that he is my father.

When Hugo was born, the Court of Justice in the city of Zwolle (East of the Netherlands) acknowledged the parenthood but both parents agreed there would be no legal recognition and no parentship between the biological father and the son. Therefore in the municipal registry only the mother was registered. More or less the same procedure as when the father is "just" a donor, or when the father is known (an unintented or intended pregnancy) while there never were plans to cohabitate or have a relationship.

Hugo Klynstra is the biological son of the Duke of Parma. No one fights that and the Duke himself made clear Hugo was his son. But there has never been a cohabitation or a relationship between the mother and the father since the birth of Hugo. The Duke of Parma has never executed parental rights, he has not raised, educated or tutored Hugo. They have never lived together. From the very birth of Hugo, this has been the agreed and chosen situation between Hugo's mother and his father. So Hugo needs to have arguments for his claim on the surname and title.
 
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I hope the actual Duke of Parma will not have more problems with Prince Sixte , his Uncle
 
maria-olivia said:
I hope the actual Duke of Parma will not have more problems with Prince Sixte , his Uncle
Click to expand...

Prince Sixte-Henri already does not recognize his nephews' marriages to Annemarie Gualthérie van Weezel respectively to Viktória Cservenyák because both fail to comply with the Carlist tradition.

According to Sixte-Henri, I think the line is:

x Carlos de Bourbon de Parme (1970)
(non-dynastical marriage with Annemarie Gualthérie van Weezel)

x Jaime de Bourbon de Parme (1972)
(non-dynastical marriage with Viktória Cservenyák)

1 Sixte-Henri de Bourbon de Parme (1940)
(unmarried)

2 Jean of Luxembourg (1921)
(married to Princess Joséphine-Charlotte of Belgium)

x Henri of Luxembourg (1955)
(non-dynastical marriage with María Teresa Mestre)

x Jean of Luxembourg (1957)
(non-dynastical marriage with Hélène Vestur)

x Guillaume of Luxembourg (1963)
(non-dynastical marriage with Sibylla Weiller)

3 Michel de Bourbon de Parme (1926)
(married to Princess Yolande de Broglie)

x Philippe de Bourbon de Parme (1949)
(non-dynastical marriage with Annette Smith)

4 Éric de Bourbon de Parme (1953)
(married to Lydia Countess Holstein af Ledreborg)

5 Michel de Bourbon de Parme (1989)
(unmarried)

6 Henri de Bourbon de Parme (1991)
(unmarried)

7 Charles-Emmanuel de Bourbon de Parme (1961)
(married to Constance des barons de Ravinel et du Saint-Empire)

8 Amaury de Bourbon de Parme (1991)
(unmarried)

:flowers:
 
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JR76 said:
What a coincidence given our discussion on the subject just a few days ago. Thank you, btw, for your kind explanations about it.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing!

It's a terrible thing for a person when his parent refuses to recognize him. Whatever sorrowful time Carlos went through, I'm wondering what sorrows Hugo has gone through.
 
GracieGiraffe said:
I was thinking the same thing!

It's a terrible thing for a person when his parent refuses to recognize him. Whatever sorrowful time Carlos went through, I'm wondering what sorrows Hugo has gone through.
Click to expand...

There wasn't mention so much of a "sorrowful time" but "a personal matter with a sad background"; but one can assume that the stories that have come out about the matter indicate that whatever happened he didn't agree with Ms.Klynstra's decision.

But i agree: it takes two to tango and if you particpate you should be prepared for consequences...

PS. maybe i should explain why to me it's significant (and that's why in an earlier post I asked where it was said) that he doesn't actually use the phrase "sorrowful time" but the (to me much more distant) "matter with a sad background", is because the official comment to me is very distant and non-personal, as if he has nothing to do with it...
 
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GracieGiraffe said:
I was thinking the same thing!

It's a terrible thing for a person when his parent refuses to recognize him. Whatever sorrowful time Carlos went through, I'm wondering what sorrows Hugo has gone through.
Click to expand...

Actually the parent did recognize him, even before he was born, but both parents agreed there would be no legal recognition, no paternity, no relationship, no cohabitation.

This happens quite often. Think about all those donors who help others to get a baby but have the condition that they do not want to establish any form of parenthood at all. Think about all the IVF-donors who can be traced back (in the past they were guarenteed anonimity but children can request to know who the donor is). Knowing who the natural father is, that is not the same as having legal paternity, having the surname, etc. The cases of Delphine Boël (Belgium) and Hugo Klynstra (Netherlands) show it.

That makes it quite generous by the late Prince Bernhard (possibly his four legal daughters have another opinion on that...) that his two extramarital daughters Alicia de Bielefelde and Alexia Lejeune-Grinda equally shared in his inheritance, together with their sisters Beatrix, Irene, Margriet and Christina. Had Prince Bernhard taken his secret into his grave, his two extramarital daughter probably had to fight for years in Courts to claim a part of Prince Bernhard's inheritance.

Family Law is extremely complicated. Not only children have rights. Also someone as Prince Carlos and Brigitte Klynstra, whom apparently made a certain choice 22 years ago, have certain rights based on their perfectly legal choice to settle it the way they did. Already before Hugo was born, it was known that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme was his father, but also back then it was communicated that it was "an independent decision by Ms Klynstra to become a mother". And: "There is no legal familial relationship with mother and child and it is excluded that there will be ever such a relationship". Rumours went that Ms Klynstra (*1958), a much older friend of the Prince (*1970) was "helped" to become a mother. At the time she was already nearly 40 or something while the Prince was only 28 or something.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
Actually the parent did recognize him, even before he was born, but both parents agreed there would be no legal recognition, no paternity, no relationship, no cohabitation.

This happens quite often. Think about all those donors who help others to get a baby but have the condition that they do not want to establish any form of parenthood at all. Think about all the IVF-donors who can be traced back (in the past they were guarenteed anonimity but children can request to know who the donor is). Knowing who the natural father is, that is not the same as having legal paternity, having the surname, etc. The cases of Delphine Boël (Belgium) and Hugo Klynstra (Netherlands) show it.
Click to expand...

Sperm donation is an entirely different matter. I will tweak my statement; it is a terrible thing to father a child and then not take any interest in it.

Duc_et_Pair said:
That makes it quite generous by the late Prince Bernhard (possibly his four legal daughters have another opinion on that...) that his two extramarital daughters Alicia de Bielefelde and Alexia Lejeune-Grinda equally shared in his inheritance, together with their sisters Beatrix, Irene, Margriet and Christina. Had Prince Bernhard taken his secret into his grave, his two extramarital daughter probably had to fight for years in Courts to claim a part of Prince Bernhard's inheritance.
Click to expand...

"Quite generous" to acknowledge one's children...:whistling:

Duc_et_Pair said:
Family Law is extremely complicated. Not only children have rights. Also someone as Prince Carlos and Brigitte Klynstra, whom apparently made a certain choice 22 years ago, have certain rights based on their perfectly legal choice to settle it the way they did. Already before Hugo was born, it was known that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme was his father, but also back then it was communicated that it was "an independent decision by Ms Klynstra to become a mother". And: "There is no legal familial relationship with mother and child and it is excluded that there will be ever such a relationship". Rumours went that Ms Klynstra (*1958), a much older friend of the Prince (*1970) was "helped" to become a mother. At the time she was already nearly 40 or something while the Prince was only 28 or something.
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I read a while back that Carlos agreed, in effect, to be a sperm donor. However, the reference to the "sorrowful time" suggests this was more of an accidental pregnancy. And the "independent decision," well, I think we all now what what means.

I stand by my statements made in the past; when you father a child, you have a moral obligation to act as its father. I don't really care what the law says.
 
Well, to make things more complicated: Hugo Klynstra was not forgotten, neglected or ignored. His grandmother and step-grandfather were the Count and Countess Van Rechteren-Limpurg. Hugo was raised on their idyllic estate in the East of the Netherlands. He joined the Orange-Nassaus and the De Bourbon de Parmes on holidays. You make it sound like the young dude was hidden somewhere in a mobile home car park and that is not the case. Now, 22 years later, he requests to become known as HRH Prince Carlos Hugo Roderick Sybren de Bourbon de Parme. His natural father objects against that and now it is to Lady Justitia to decide upon Hugo's request. Like in any name-change case, being a son or daughter on itself is not enough to have the surname, especially not when one or both parents disagree.
 
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So from what I am understanding the Duke recognized and accepted him, he spent Christmas with nothing sides of his family tree, he is a royal on his own right without his father but still wants to be called a Bourbon-Parme?
Lord this is crazy
 
Did the late Duke of Parma have a natural Child also .
(a Child with her Children 's Nannie in Spain )
 
TheRoyalCourtisane said:
So from what I am understanding the Duke recognized and accepted him, he spent Christmas with nothing sides of his family tree, he is a royal on his own right without his father but still wants to be called a Bourbon-Parme?
Lord this is crazy
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No, this is not crazy. Every year thousands and thousands of children are born while the parents have made legal agreements about cohabitation, parenthood, recognition, surname, etc.

Imagine you are a great friend with a child wish. I am willing to help you. With you I reach an agreement that the child might know that I am the father but that there will not be any legal recognition, no parenthood, the child will be registered with your surname and you are the responsible parent. I will not be a parent, a tutor, an educator nor will the child live in my house.

For law that is a perfectly legal agreement. By ruling of the Court of Justice in Zwolle (East of the Netherlands) the parenthood of Prince Carlos was established. By agreement the child was registered in the municipal registry without father. The case is not that unusual.
 
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So, did Hugo spend holidays/establish a relationship with the Orange-Nassau/Bourbon de Parme side of his family? If so then I'd say that's the point at which his biological father, regardless of what his biological parents might have agreed upon when he was born, tacitly acknowledged Hugo as his son. It's pretty pathetic, I think, for Carlos to deny Hugo the family name, if a relationship with the rest of the family has been established. I hope the law finds in Hugo's favor.
 
^^^^ as i understand it, according to dutch law a child in this situation has the option to have the fatherhood established after the death of the father; if the fatherhood is established than the child has the same rights with regards to inheritance etc as other children of the father...

Imo this is why Duke Carlos has started the legal procedure to see if this decision would be reached, in which case there will probably be other actions taken (for some reason in doubt whether Mr.Klynstra will ever be the next duke)

When the son was born there were articles in dutch media saying Duke Carlos Javier should have recognized his son and save himself later trouble....they probably were right...
 
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