Charles III: Coronation Information and Musings - Part 1

[Stefan]

I certainly hope not that Queen Camilla will be in day dress. That would look ridiculous with a crown

 

[Iluvbertie]

Coronation by itself is already really old-fashined tradition what other European monarchies haven't practised anymore long time. Others just swear an oath for parliament but Brits have kept whole coronation thing. Yes, it is holy rithual for them but sometimes you have just think could traditions be changed.

This ceremony is more than just the coronation of a Head of State though but the crowning of the new Supreme Governor of the Church of England, which is why it is still a religious ceremony.

When England and Scotland finally disestablish their respective churches then the coronation can be a simple oath taken at any venue anywhere in the country but until then the religious ceremony will continue.

 

[MARG]

I have to admit I am tired of hearing again and again that this is a State Occasion and not a Family Occasion. If it is merely a State occasion the guest list would be dictated only by the Political Party in Power at the time of the Coronation. So why not just get rid of the British Royal family altogether, take it out of the Abbey and celebrate an elected President? After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Without the BRF and the traditions that go with their reigning (not ruling), the entire Coronation would be a farce and just like HLM dutifully receiving heads of state that she personally found abominable for political expedience because the government of the time wanted or needed to shmooze them for political gain regardless of their transgressions against their own or other peoples. But at least most of that was unseen by the majority of cameras.

The United Kingdom is a Constitutional Monarchy and, if the dictates of politics overwhelm the requirements of the historical basis of the Coronation itself then what is the point of having one? The British Royal Family is just that, a family, and it is a time when the King can show his people what kind of man he is and that regardless of events can show the forgiveness of both a brother and a father. To exclude those whom it seems the majority of people on this thread would like him to would show the world that the King was either the ultimate political puppet or, heart-hearted and careless of his own family. With the likes of the Daily Mail printing damning popularity polls and salacious stories, there has never been a time when the Windsors need to be seen as a close, loving and forgiving family worthy of their position because it is the people that will choose the future, not the media, not even parliament but the people in the poll booths.

If the Coronation goes ahead under those edicts then history will judge him as cruelly as it would appear as if he treats his own family and somehow I do not think Charles would ever allow that to happen. As a point of interest I was listening to 'Zadok the Priest' and hoping the coronation works of Handel were not part of the chop list, I looked up the history of it and ended up getting a bit of an education about Royal History. It's funny how the Coronation Services are all set down, both music and liturgy, and little to no mention of the politics or politicians of the nation at that time.

I think the greater number of people attending and watching the Coronation will be, as they were at both Queen Elizabeth II's Coronation and Funeral, aware they were actually experiencing a moment in history that may never come again. I have no doubt that the same will hold true for the Coronation of King Charles III and his Consort Camilla, a time that celebrates the rich history of the United Kingdom and its continuation at a time when the world is so troubled yet, for that time, the people of the UK and the Commonwealth will come together and celebrate that though times are hard, war, famine and disease have plagued us, we are all still here!

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is a STATE Occasion - it is paid for by the STATE. It is NOT a family occasion although some of the family will be included.

Charles doesn't control the invitation list. He will be given a number of people he can invite but the vast majority of the invitation list will be determined by the government - simple fact. It is the government who will have the final say because it is a state occasion and not a private family one.

That is probably too hard a concept for some people to understand. The only family members who have to be in attendance would be Camilla and William - the wife and the heir apparent. Of course there will be more present but the rest aren't needed and if there is no room for them then so be it but the government will have all those that the government deems necessary to have at this occasion.

 

[Denville]

Toledo, Ypu have some points but I disagree on a few of them. The Children need to be on their best behavior, no sticking out their tongues or making faces. They could enter and then ALL quietly go with the Nanny. The children need to behave like the children of Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel also like the twins do of Prince Albert and Princess Charlene.

IF Prince Harry attends he should wear his uniform. He fought for his country and earned the right to wear it. Prince Harry wanted to stay in and make a career but the Firm said no. How different things would have been if he was allowed to follow his dream of a military career.



JMOO like you have yours.

(Sorry Mods. if you need to remove, please do so. I was trying to be nice and make a few points.)

That is not true. Harry could have had a longer time in hte army, he was not needed for royal duties, but he gave up the army because he did not want to do a desk or non active job.

 

[Skippy]

Actually Charles will have meet all the Ambassadors and High Commissioners as they will have been at the various Diplomatic Receptions and he has also had audiences with many of them, in person, since his accession.

This isn't a family occasion but a STATE occasion and he will have only limited say as to who will be invited - the government will have the largest say and it will want to have the High Commissioners and Ambassadors there for diplomatic reasons - no point in upsetting a country by not inviting their official representative in the UK, at the very least.

Much of the public in the UK actually objected to Andrew showing his face at Philip's memorial service so I can see an objection to him attending a coronation, even of a brother - sorry but that is how it is. I have a number of friends in the UK and all have said to me that if either Andrew or Harry attend they will know that Charles is as weak as they have always believed him to be and will move firmly into the republican camp.

This is not some private family event or even a public family event like a wedding but the formal acknowledgement of the change-over from one Head of State to the next and diplomacy comes before family for such an event.

With only limited seating capacity decisions will have to be made who to cut from the 8000 invited to the late Queen's coronation and there were fewer countries in the world then and the BRF was smaller. She still couldn't have everyone that she and/or the government wanted with 8000 in the Abbey so it will be a lot harder to have a quarter that number this time.

Charles has been rumoured to be on about having a smaller royal family so this is the time to show the world how small it really is - working royals only i.e. 12 plus George and Charlotte - the future working royals (probably and I am not convinced that Charlotte will be a working royal anyway).

Why do they believe Charles to be weak?

 

[Denville]

Prince Louis should be allowed to attend part ot the Coronation.
It is not everyday one has a grandfather who has a coronation.

Not a good idea. He is very young and clearly needs a firm hand, and gets bored easily. He is too young to be expected to go to a ceremony like the Coronation and behave suitably.

 

[Denville]

Why do they believe Charles to be weak?

Charles is a gentle person, tho' sometimes showing a quick temper and there has been a perception that he is indecisive. However I dont think that that means he is weak, and he has shown over the past couple of years that while he still loves Harry, he is not going to give in to him nor to Andrew about things that they want, if he does not think it is a good idea.

 

[Stefan]

Not a good idea. He is very young and clearly needs a firm hand, and gets bored easily. He is too young to be expected to go to a ceremony like the Coronation and behave suitably.

I think k they could do the same what was done with Charles in 1953. Bring him in for the moment of the actual crowning. He will then be older, as Charles was in 193.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Coronation by itself is already really old-fashined tradition what other European monarchies haven't practised anymore long time. Others just swear an oath for parliament but Brits have kept whole coronation thing. Yes, it is holy rithual for them but sometimes you have just think could traditions be changed.

If traditions are changed are they still considered to be traditions?

 

[sophie25]

I think k they could do the same what was done with Charles in 1953. Bring him in for the moment of the actual crowning. He will then be older, as Charles was in 193.

Louis seems a tad more animated than Charles was at that age LOL! If they even bring him in for the crowning they will have to be sure he will be quiet as it cannot be ruined by a misbehaving child. This will go down in history so everything needs to be perfect.

 

[Friedrich Karl II]

I think k they could do the same what was done with Charles in 1953. Bring him in for the moment of the actual crowning. He will then be older, as Charles was in 193.

I don't see any reason to bring Louis to the ceremony even for short time. With Charles reason was probably that he was direct heir and first on line of successin during the coronation. But Louis is not. He is youngest child of current prince of Wales and fourth on line of succession. And Louis is not someone who anyone would think behave greatly. That was too reason why he wasn't on his great-grandmother's funeral. Coronation is too holy ceremony that some small child would be allowed to be on presence.

 

[Mirabel]

I don't see any reason to bring Louis to the ceremony even for short time. With Charles reason was probably that he was direct heir and first on line of successin during the coronation. But Louis is not. He is youngest child of current prince of Wales and fourth on line of succession. And Louis is not someone who anyone would think behave greatly. That was too reason why he wasn't on his great-grandmother's funeral. Coronation is too holy ceremony that some small child would be allowed to be on presence.

I agree.
I think young children would find the ceremony boring.
I don't even think Charlotte should be there, only George since he is the direct heir.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

I think it's wrong to judge HRH Prince Louis of Wales's entire personality on one event that happened nearly a year before the scheduled coronation. He will be a year older by then, so there's a good chance he'll be less antsy as well. Remember when HRH Princess Charlotte of Wales was considered cheeky and bratty because she threw tantrums at 2 and stuck her tongue out at the paparazzi at 4, and now she's seen as the epitome of grace at 7? HRH Prince Louis of Wales should be allowed the same grace.

Regardless, TRH The Prince and Princess of Wales will make the best decision for them and their children when the time comes.

 

[JGio]

I agree.

I think young children would find the ceremony boring.

I don't even think Charlotte should be there, only George since he is the direct heir.

Why discriminating Charlotte? Just because she’s not the heir? What about her Father’s Coronation? She won’t be the heir either at that time. And what if one day she becomes Queen? What about potential critics from the Feminist movement (“Charlotte at home because she’s not the heir”).

How sad to treat members of a royal family as if their titles were job titles and nothing more. All this “working royals can appear and non-working royals should not be seen anywhere in a million years” is sickening, to me. Within the family this can create even more hatred and end up like with H&M. Why being a second-born should be a fault? Let them live.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Charles doesn't control the invitation list. He will be given a number of people he can invite but the vast majority of the invitation list will be determined by the government - simple fact. It is the government who will have the final say because it is a state occasion and not a private family one.

For whatever it is worth, a government source claims the part of the invitation list encompassing the king's family would be under his control: "Traditionally, the Royal Household provides us with the number of Royal guests, without giving their identity, and we construct the arrangements on that basis."

 

[kimebear]

"Traditionally, the Royal Household provides us with the number of Royal guests, without giving their identity, and we construct the arrangements on that basis."

Well, there's one way for King Charles to slip Harry in under the radar if he truly wants him there. I imagine the public's potential reaction would be a contributing factor in his decision.

 

[Sunnystar]

How's this for an idea... The working royals (and their minor/university-aged children) get the front row seats and the rest of the Royal Family are seated in the rows behind them? I'm not sure there's any reasonable way to keep them out of camera range, especially when arriving at Westminster Abbey, but I think that would be the best way to make it clear their presence is as FAMILY and they do not have an official role to play.

 

[tommy100]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64349...1ED-AD84-2CBA4744363C&at_campaign=Social_Flow


World-famous entertainers will perform at Windsor Castle as part of a weekend of celebrations to mark the King's coronation, it has been announced.

The concert will be broadcast on the BBC on 7 May featuring "global music icons", orchestras and a diverse "coronation choir".

It will come the day after the coronation at Westminster Abbey.

Processions to and from the abbey will take place, ending with a balcony appearance at Buckingham Palace.

These are among the new details just released on plans for the weekend which the King and Queen Consort hope will be an opportunity for friends, families and communities to celebrate together, said Buckingham Palace.

The concert choir will be picked from amateur choirs, including from the NHS, refugees, LGBTQ+ singing groups and deaf-signing choirs, reflecting the aim to make this a more inclusive coronation, which mixes the ancient and modern aspects.

There will be a laser and drone lightshow, but in an end to another tradition, there are no plans for beacons to be lit around the country.

Coronation weekend:

Saturday 6 May: Coronation service in Westminster Abbey; coronation procession; Buckingham Palace balcony
Sunday 7 May: Concert and lightshow at Windsor Castle; Coronation Big Lunch street parties
Monday 8 May: Extra bank holiday; Big Help Out encouraging people to get involved in local volunteering

Full details at the RF website https://www.royal.uk/coronation-weekend-plans-announced

 

[Somebody]

It's intersting to see how they are linking the Big Lunch in relation to the Queen Consort and the Big Help Out to the King.

 

[VictoriaB]

It's intersting to see how they are linking the Big Lunch in relation to the Queen Consort and the Big Help Out to the King.

The Queen is the patron of the Big Lunch and has been for years, so not really surprising they are linking it to her. The Big Lunch last year was linked to the Jubilee.

And the Princes Trust has always been about community and helping out others so, again, not surprising there is an emphasis on communities coming together and helping one another out.

 

[MARG]

If traditions are changed are they still considered to be traditions?

Ah, I think that would be a succinct NO.

Why discriminating Charlotte? Just because she’s not the heir? What about her Father’s Coronation? She won’t be the heir either at that time. And what if one day she becomes Queen? What about potential critics from the Feminist movement (“Charlotte at home because she’s not the heir”).
How sad to treat members of a royal family as if their titles were job titles and nothing more. All this “working royals can appear and non-working royals should not be seen anywhere in a million years” is sickening, to me. Within the family, this can create even more hatred and end up like with H&M. Why being a second-born should be a fault? Let them live.

IMO when they started spouting on about only "working royals" they opened a humongous can of worms. Now is the time to be "The Royal Family", from the King, Queen and Prince and Princess of Wales all the way down and across to the elderly but supportive and still filling in the gaps, Gloucester's and Kent's. Those who show up at what is considered minor engagements in the grand scheme of things but are important to those involved. They show up because they are part of the BRF, with the emphasis being on family. The sad fact is that since they emphasised "working" royals and unwisely refer to it as a "Firm", why would one not expect people to treat it like an anonymous corporation shedding employees at their will?

Such thinking has reduced the BRF to a mere commercial entity and there is nothing remotely patriotic about them because the key four members have managed to reduce themselves to mere employees of the government. Civil Servants no less. To be seen to treat their extended family with no honour will only continue to lower the standing of the Crown and, correct me if I am wrong, the aim of the BRF is to shine as a beacon to the peoples of the country, to promote unity and patriotism and not division, hatred and rebellion.

For whatever it is worth, a government source claims the part of the invitation list encompassing the king's family would be under his control: "Traditionally, the Royal Household provides us with the number of Royal guests, without giving their identity, and we construct the arrangements on that basis."

As per usual the DM has its giant spoon out and is gleefully stirring but the Prime Minister and his government have now all been made aware of what needs to be done and by whom. They are also aware of the almost incalculable value of the royal family itself and the impact of a Coronation on both the country and commerce. The weighing of tradition against economics and its unifying or divisive effect on their constituents is not to be ignored. Everyone was staggered by the far-reaching impact of the death of the Monarch, the solemn days of mourning and the funeral itself, all beaming around the world to the Commonwealth and the world at large. If they had listened to the DM, et al, they would have been been caught majorly flat-footed.

 

[yukari]

(...)

IMO when they started spouting on about only "working royals" they opened a humongous can of worms. Now is the time to be "The Royal Family", from the King, Queen and Prince and Princess of Wales all the way down and across to the elderly but supportive and still filling in the gaps, Gloucester's and Kent's. Those who show up at what is considered minor engagements in the grand scheme of things but are important to those involved. They show up because they are part of the BRF, with the emphasis being on family. The sad fact is that since they emphasised "working" royals and unwisely refer to it as a "Firm", why would one not expect people to treat it like an anonymous corporation shedding employees at their will?

Such thinking has reduced the BRF to a mere commercial entity and there is nothing remotely patriotic about them because the key four members have managed to reduce themselves to mere employees of the government. Civil Servants no less. To be seen to treat their extended family with no honour will only continue to lower the standing of the Crown and, correct me if I am wrong, the aim of the BRF is to shine as a beacon to the peoples of the country, to promote unity and patriotism and not division, hatred and rebellion.
As per usual the DM has its giant spoon out and is gleefully stirring but the Prime Minister and his government have now all been made aware of what needs to be done and by whom. They are also aware of the almost incalculable value of the royal family itself and the impact of a Coronation on both the country and commerce. The weighing of tradition against economics and its unifying or divisive effect on their constituents is not to be ignored. Everyone was staggered by the far-reaching impact of the death of the Monarch, the solemn days of mourning and the funeral itself, all beaming around the world to the Commonwealth and the world at large. If they had listened to the DM, et al, they would have been been caught majorly flat-footed.

But isn't that how most monarchies work? I think BRF is one of few who still hasn't had clear distinction
between "royal house" (working royal) and "royal family" (working royal plus other non-working blood relative royal). Most of continental monarchies work that way and they're fine so I don't see anything wrong if BRF wants to follow those example.

Dutch for example, the "shedding employees" aka removing members from royal house happens as the reign changing. From their website:

When Prince Willem-Alexander became King, Prince Maurits and Prince Bernhard and their wives ceased to be members of the Royal House. The three children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien also ceased to be members of the Royal House, but retain their right of succession.

Certain events involving members of the royal family not only have personal significance for them, but also play a role in the continuation of the monarchy. These events, including births, christenings, birthdays, engagements, marriages and deaths, are often announced through official channels.

Heck, female members of Japanese Imperial Family still being kicked out for marrying commoners, including daughters of the reigning emperors. The former princess Sayako, the Emperor's only sister, still doing some charity engagements but no longer handled by IHA. However, she's also still being invited to the "family" occasions. Even some members of former Miyake still being invited to some family occasions

I can't think of any other monarchies other than Brits who would include the equivalent of Lady Helen Windsor in their balcony-like occasion.

In the end of the day, they are constitution monarchies, not absolute monarchy. It's the royals who "serve" their people, not the other way around like during the medieval era. So yes, they are "working" for their subjects.

 

[Denville]

Louis seems a tad more animated than Charles was at that age LOL! If they even bring him in for the crowning they will have to be sure he will be quiet as it cannot be ruined by a misbehaving child. This will go down in history so everything needs to be perfect.

Do you mean Charles was a quiet and well behaved child?

 

[Lilyflo]

I expect there's somewhere discreet they can seat the children and do a deal with the TV people to keep the cameras off them. They'll have official photographers who can record them being there but can choose not to publish any embarrassing ones. They could even have Louis present only for the musical bits so he wouldn't be heard.

 

[FigTree]

I am sure for the coronation itself, they may bring in all the children. Lena was at the children's vigil.

I am sure even that they may bring all 5 who are old enough to the full thing: George, Charlotte, Savannah, Isla and Mia.

Louis will be 5 at that stage. A hugh difference to the jubilee for him.

 

[Hallo girl]

I think it's wrong to judge HRH Prince Louis of Wales's entire personality on one event that happened nearly a year before the scheduled coronation. He will be a year older by then, so there's a good chance he'll be less antsy as well. Remember when HRH Princess Charlotte of Wales was considered cheeky and bratty because she threw tantrums at 2 and stuck her tongue out at the paparazzi at 4, and now she's seen as the epitome of grace at 7? HRH Prince Louis of Wales should be allowed the same grace.

Regardless, TRH The Prince and Princess of Wales will make the best decision for them and their children when the time comes.

Thank you . It is nice to see a balanced view of a 4 year old.

I agree the actual ceremony might be too long to sit through but like another poster suggested I can see the children being brought in to see the actual crowning.

 

[Blog Real]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64349...1ED-AD84-2CBA4744363C&at_campaign=Social_Flow


World-famous entertainers will perform at Windsor Castle as part of a weekend of celebrations to mark the King's coronation, it has been announced.

The concert will be broadcast on the BBC on 7 May featuring "global music icons", orchestras and a diverse "coronation choir".

It will come the day after the coronation at Westminster Abbey.

Processions to and from the abbey will take place, ending with a balcony appearance at Buckingham Palace.

These are among the new details just released on plans for the weekend which the King and Queen Consort hope will be an opportunity for friends, families and communities to celebrate together, said Buckingham Palace.

The concert choir will be picked from amateur choirs, including from the NHS, refugees, LGBTQ+ singing groups and deaf-signing choirs, reflecting the aim to make this a more inclusive coronation, which mixes the ancient and modern aspects.

There will be a laser and drone lightshow, but in an end to another tradition, there are no plans for beacons to be lit around the country.

Coronation weekend:

Saturday 6 May: Coronation service in Westminster Abbey; coronation procession; Buckingham Palace balcony
Sunday 7 May: Concert and lightshow at Windsor Castle; Coronation Big Lunch street parties
Monday 8 May: Extra bank holiday; Big Help Out encouraging people to get involved in local volunteering

Full details at the RF website https://www.royal.uk/coronation-weekend-plans-announced

It will be three very interesting days. The last coronation of a British monarch took place in 1953.
I'm very curious to see the coronation. I also like that there is a concert the next day. Will any of the foreign royal guests come to the concert?

 

[Ista]

A number of off topic posts have been deleted. If you wish to discuss the relationships between the British royal family and other royal families, there is a thread for that:

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-windsors-and-europe-2060.html

 

[JGio]

Ah, I think that would be a succinct NO.

IMO when they started spouting on about only "working royals" they opened a humongous can of worms. Now is the time to be "The Royal Family", from the King, Queen and Prince and Princess of Wales all the way down and across to the elderly but supportive and still filling in the gaps, Gloucester's and Kent's. Those who show up at what is considered minor engagements in the grand scheme of things but are important to those involved. They show up because they are part of the BRF, with the emphasis being on family. The sad fact is that since they emphasised "working" royals and unwisely refer to it as a "Firm", why would one not expect people to treat it like an anonymous corporation shedding employees at their will?



Such thinking has reduced the BRF to a mere commercial entity and there is nothing remotely patriotic about them because the key four members have managed to reduce themselves to mere employees of the government. Civil Servants no less. To be seen to treat their extended family with no honour will only continue to lower the standing of the Crown and, correct me if I am wrong, the aim of the BRF is to shine as a beacon to the peoples of the country, to promote unity and patriotism and not division, hatred and rebellion.

Couldn’t have said it better. Why having a monarchy and a royal family if they have to be like this? It more and more looks like a Marketing company rather than a royal family. How sad.

Hope King Charles realizes it and makes the Coronation an event to showcase some change.