Gender, names & godparents for Princess Beatrice & Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi's second child

kalnel said:

I didn't say they were enemies. I just pointed out a few names that won't be selected.

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While counterposing it with a 'pay tribute to Catherine'. Reality is there is more of a history of friendship between the Sussexes and Yorks then there is the Yorks and Kate. Don't think Kate is a blip on the radar of family they may choose to honor.

kalnel said:

I didn't say they were enemies. I just pointed out a few names that won't be selected.

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Yes, a selection who are/were jailbirds or very unpopular British and US politicians, several out of office. Meghan is neither a politician, an ex politician nor a convicted felon.

Countessmeout said:

While counterposing it with a 'pay tribute to Catherine'. Reality is there is more of a history of friendship between the Sussexes and Yorks then there is the Yorks and Kate. Don't think Kate is a blip on the radar of family they may choose to honor.

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Exactly. I don't see the reason Beatrice need to pay tribute to a cousin in law while she has a sister and female cousin...if you ask me I would say "Catherine" or "Kate" is on the same list of "names won't be chosen" as "Meghan".

I doubt that the baby will have the name of Edo’s father, I thought they didn’t have the most close and loving relationship. I was under the impression he very much thought of his late stepfather as his father figure.

crm2317 said:

I doubt that the baby will have the name of Edo’s father, I thought they didn’t have the most close and loving relationship. I was under the impression he very much thought of his late stepfather as his father figure.

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Indeed. I have never heard him say anything specific about Alex, but the way he speaks about Christopher (even without the obvious he named his first born for him) its clear his bond with his stepfather was much closer.

Tribute to Christopher says it all

JGio said:

If it’s a boy, I assume they will go for a traditional Italian Mapelli Lozzi name, as he will become holder of the Italian noble title in day. Both Edo and his father have Italian names. I believe they will call him Alessandro, like Edo’s father. Or maybe his grandfather (I can’t find the name).

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Edo has a first born son. Does Christopher's out-of-wedlock status invalidate him from holding the Italian noble title and its properties ( The Villa Mapelli Mozzi) in due time?

If so, what happens if Edoardo and Beatrice do not ever have a son?

Boy: Xander Philip Mapelli Mozzi
Girl: Lola Victoria Mapelli Mozzi

A girl - Thea
A boy - Alex

Moonmaiden23 said:

Edo has a first born son. Does Christopher's out-of-wedlock status invalidate him from holding the Italian noble title and its properties ( The Villa Mapelli Mozzi) in due time?

If so, what happens if Edoardo and Beatrice do not ever have a son?

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As an Italian count all legitimate children are counts/countesses.Sienna would Donna Sienna.

As the titles were abolished the estate (which seems to include 2 manors) is a private matter. If they don't have a son there is likely a family trust that will be altered.

Countessmeout said:

As an Italian count all legitimate children are counts/countesses.Sienna would Donna Sienna.

As the titles were abolished the estate (which seems to include 2 manors) is a private matter. If they don't have a son there is likely a family trust that will be altered.

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I think you meant to say all legitimate sons are counts. Daughters in the Mapelli Mozzi family aren't countesses, legitimate or otherwise.

Conte Edoardo and (as you stated) Donna Sienna

ETA: But since titles of nobility are no longer recognized by the Italian government, Conte can only be used on a social basis.

Moonmaiden23 said:

Edo has a first born son. Does Christopher's out-of-wedlock status invalidate him from holding the Italian noble title and its properties ( The Villa Mapelli Mozzi) in due time?

If so, what happens if Edoardo and Beatrice do not ever have a son?

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Correct, Wolfie is not a Count. The eventual son of Beatrice and Edo will be Count from birth. A daughter will be Donna Sienna Mapelli Mozzi, extended dei Conti Mapelli Mozzi. Like Queen Paola of Belgium was born into a Princely family, she was officially Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria.

But I still have to understand how cadet male aristocrats were styled in Italy.. there seem to be confusion.. anyone knows other threads here where it is discussed?

Moonmaiden23 said:

Edo has a first born son. Does Christopher's out-of-wedlock status invalidate him from holding the Italian noble title and its properties ( The Villa Mapelli Mozzi) in due time?

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Italian noble titles have been abolished (as mentioned by Countessmeout and Gawin above), cf. Transitory Provision XIV, paragraph of the Constitution of Italy:


Thus, there is no title to inherit.

Some descendants of Italian nobility (such as Edo's father) nonetheless call themselves, socially, by their families' former titles. But Edo Mapelli Mozzi is not one of them. He told a newspaper in 2019:


Since Edo himself does not possess a title and he considers it inappropriate to call himself by a title, I think it is unlikely that any of his children, born in or out of wedlock, will call themselves by a title.

I'm afraid I have no idea about the Villa.

Countessmeout said:

As an Italian count all legitimate children are counts/countesses.Sienna would Donna Sienna.

As the titles were abolished the estate (which seems to include 2 manors) is a private matter.

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Gawin said:

I think you meant to say all legitimate sons are counts. Daughters in the Mapelli Mozzi family aren't countesses, legitimate or otherwise.

Conte Edoardo and (as you stated) Donna Sienna

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Gawin said:

ETA: But since titles of nobility are no longer recognized by the Italian government, Conte can only be used on a social basis.

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JGio said:

Correct, Wolfie is not a Count. The eventual son of Beatrice and Edo will be Count from birth. A daughter will be Donna Sienna Mapelli Mozzi, extended dei Conti Mapelli Mozzi. Like Queen Paola of Belgium was born into a Princely family, she was officially Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria.

But I still have to understand how cadet male aristocrats were styled in Italy.. there seem to be confusion.. anyone knows other threads here where it is discussed?

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Before the Italian nobility was abolished, different families were conferred with different titles. "Donna" and "Don" were mostly granted to princely families, such as the Ruffo di Calabria.

Within the Mapelli Mozzi family, sons were Conte (Count) while daughters were Nobile (Noble). (Presumably this applied only to legitimate children, as was the norm.) None of the family members were Donna or Don, and daughters were not countesses. See this thread for sources.

Most of us are aware that Italian titled of nobility have been abolished. I also know that Edoardo doesn't use his.

The point is always hammered ad nauseum for whatever reason on this thread.

But Edo's status comes with certain other property perks. And a state or Republic banishing a title doesn't necessarily prohibit family or media from continuing to use it.

See the Orleans in France, the Hanovers of Germany, the Glucksburgs of Greece and Alessandro Mapelli-Mozzi himself for current examples.

Countessmeout said:

While counterposing it with a 'pay tribute to Catherine'. Reality is there is more of a history of friendship between the Sussexes and Yorks then there is the Yorks and Kate. Don't think Kate is a blip on the radar of family they may choose to honor.

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Eugenie, not Beatrice. But Eugenie seems on excellent terms with all the family. Beatrice is quieter and I never got any indication she got on in any particular way with any of them. Eugenie on the other hand always seemed: Zara, Williams and Harry's best friend.

In that way more like Kate. Not that I think she is naming her child after her. Sienna is a fairly popular girls name in the UK at the moment. Along with Amelia etc al. I would guess she'd go for something more popular.

FigTree said:

Eugenie, not Beatrice. But Eugenie seems on excellent terms with all the family. Beatrice is quieter and I never got any indication she got on in any particular way with any of them. Eugenie on the other hand always seemed: Zara, Williams and Harry's best friend.

In that way more like Kate. Not that I think she is naming her child after her. Sienna is a fairly popular girls name in the UK at the moment. Along with Amelia etc al. I would guess she'd go for something more popular.

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Yorks have never been seen socializing with William or Zara outside events.

Harry hung in the same circles with both girls.Dated some of their friends. Went ski trips to their challet. Yes we have only really seen him with Eugenie since marriage but Beatrice's comings and goings are more private.

More again no evidence of any closeness to Kate. And no reason if they used a family name like Sienna has as a middle to think Kate would be in top ten to consider. Not saying Meghan would be either.

Countessmeout said:

Yorks have never been seen socializing with William or Zara outside events.

Harry hung in the same circles with both girls.Dated some of their friends. Went ski trips to their challet. Yes we have only really seen him with Eugenie since marriage but Beatrice's comings and goings are more private.

More again no evidence of any closeness to Kate. And no reason if they used a family name like Sienna has as a middle to think Kate would be in top ten to consider. Not saying Meghan would be either.

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That isn't true. Eugenie is often seen with Zara. And there was a photo of William visiting Eugenie before baby 2's arrival.

Harry used to party with Eugenie in particular back in the day.

That's the extent if it really. Like I said Eugenie seems popular with everyone.

Countessmeout said:

Yorks have never been seen socializing with William or Zara outside events.

Harry hung in the same circles with both girls.Dated some of their friends. Went ski trips to their challet. Yes we have only really seen him with Eugenie since marriage but Beatrice's comings and goings are more private.

More again no evidence of any closeness to Kate. And no reason if they used a family name like Sienna has as a middle to think Kate would be in top ten to consider. Not saying Meghan would be either.

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I think it's virtually impossible for us to speculate on any of the Royal Family relationships, as we really have no insight whatsoever.
Eg. we often think of the Spencers as having a better relationship with Prince Harry, yet this week we have seen the 3 Spencer girls attending a Centrepoint event with Prince William, and Lady Kitty paying a warm tribute to to him.

Moonmaiden23 said:

Most of us are aware that Italian titled of nobility have been abolished. I also know that Edoardo doesn't use his.

The point is always hammered ad nauseum for whatever reason on this thread.

But Edo's status comes with certain other property perks.

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I appreciated your question, and I very much do not wish for anyone to feel hammered. I try to write my posts to be comprehensible to most readers irrespective of their level of knowledge, which means that I may include relevant facts even if they are also discussed elsewhere in the forum.

In addition to the properties, your question asked about Christopher "holding the Italian noble title":

Moonmaiden23 said:

Edo has a first born son. Does Christopher's out-of-wedlock status invalidate him from holding the Italian noble title and its properties ( The Villa Mapelli Mozzi) in due time?

If so, what happens if Edoardo and Beatrice do not ever have a son?

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I understand now, from your clarification, that you are aware there is no legal Italian noble title, and that in Edo's case there is no non-legal Italian noble title, either. But in that case I am not sure what title you were referring to when you mentioned "holding the Italian noble title". I hope that explains my response.

Moonmaiden23 said:

And a state or Republic banishing a title doesn't necessarily prohibit family or media from continuing to use it.

See the Orleans in France, the Hanovers of Germany, the Glucksburgs of Greece and Alessandro Mapelli-Mozzi himself for current examples.

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Yes, I'm aware of that and acknowledged it in my previous post, where I wrote: "Some descendants of Italian nobility (such as Edo's father) nonetheless call themselves, socially, by their families' former titles. But Edo Mapelli Mozzi is not one of them."

irish_royalist said:

I think it's virtually impossible for us to speculate on any of the Royal Family relationships, as we really have no insight whatsoever.
Eg. we often think of the Spencers as having a better relationship with Prince Harry, yet this week we have seen the 3 Spencer girls attending a Centrepoint event with Prince William, and Lady Kitty paying a warm tribute to to him.

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Yes, and we can only speculate based on public sightings. We really don't know whether or not they socialize with one another behind closed doors away from the cameras.