Your favourite of Henry VIII's Wives?

[Zonk]

I totally concur that Henry was the problem. Again, if Anne had done anything to Catherine and Mary that he didn't approve of he would have put a stop to it and yet he didn't. But this thread isn't about Henry its about his wives.

I totally get the issue of the the rival court, and I agree that people were hedging their bets and yes, the same was done to Anne with Jane Seymour, with Anne of Cleves with Catherine Howard. Only Catherine Howard's early execution stopped the same from happening to her. And well, some could argue that Henry's death saved Catherine Parr from the same fate as some of her predecessors.

And yes, the Tudor Court was dog eat dog world...but really some of things that Anne has been accused of and how she treated Catherine and her daughter were totally unnecessary. You already have the woman's husband, he wants to marry you what else is there to do to Catherine...its a little over kill IMO.

If Anne certainly didn't attend to poison Mary, perhaps she should have kept quiet about such rumours. And therefore people wouldn't have assumed that she did it. How sad is it to wish for the death of your lover/husbands child. If he can turn on her, he can certainly turn on you...and that is exactly what he did.

Like I said in an earlier post, I concur with most scholars that Anne was framed and executed because Henry wanted a clean break. Catherine was already dead, and if Anne was dead, there would no longer be the grey issues of who was married and wasn't and therefore who was legitimate. As we know, these issues of illegitimacy followed both daughters Mary and Elizabeth as they were not considered true legitimate Queens by both Catholic and Protestant factions.

So I stand by my assertion that you reap what you sow. Yes, Anne was most likely not guilty of what she was executed on but she was certainly guilty of what she did to Catherine and Mary. That is certainly not something to be executed over...but hey...you play nasty with the big dogs you have to expect to get bitten.

 

[Zonk]

I forgot to add that I will definitely try to get a copy of the book...and one has to wonder (and I say this before I read the book) if Anne was true to the ideals of the Reformation because she believed in it or because it helped her cause?

I mean, I recognized that she was essentially raised in the French court but she was a Howard, and the Howards were and still are recognized as Catholics. So how did she get there?

 

[Cadiva]

but really some of things that Anne has been accused of

But this is the salient point isn't it - what she was "accused" of. Which goes back to my earlier comment about the fact the majority of things written about Anne were written from a completely hostile point of view

I forgot to add that I will definitely try to get a copy of the book...and one has to wonder (and I say this before I read the book) if Anne was true to the ideals of the Reformation because she believed in it or because it helped her cause?

I mean, I recognized that she was essentially raised in the French court but she was a Howard, and the Howards were and still are recognized as Catholics. So how did she get there?

I think that while the idea of Henry as Head of the English Church, and therefore capable of doing what he liked re divorcing Katherine, most definitely helped Anne's cause, that she was still a true believer in the Reformist Movement.

 

[Zonk]

Certainly there were a lot of things that Anne were accused of that were just ridiculous some examples include being a witch, the extra finger on her hand, seducing Henry with her French ways that were just plain ludicrous.

Anne was accused of incest and adultery and most modern scholars are of the belief that these were trumped up charges and she was innocent. They are basing their beliefs on information provided by writings that were produced during the lifetime of Henry VIII. Surely they wouldn't have come up to that conclusion if ALL the information during this time was hostile. Somebody had to write that stuff in order for just ONE person to say that she was framed. And that is my point.

Anne was accused of being nasty towards Catherine and Mary, again using the same information. Anne, also at the time of her death attempted to reconcile with Mary (or at least wrote her a letter of apology) recognizing that some of the things she did towards Mary were cruel. So can we use her words to justify the opinion of many that she was nasty towards Catherine and Mary?

 

[Cadiva]

So can we use her words to justify the opinion of many that she was nasty towards Catherine and Mary?

I haven't said that she wasn't though? What I said was that is wasn't really a great surprise how she behaved given the court she was in and the position she was in. I am sure she did ask for the Crown Jewels back as she believed Katherine should no longer have them. I am sure she probably did try and get the Christening Gown, again believing it was something belonging to the English Crown rather than being a personal possession of Katherine's.
I believe she was probably cruel in her treatment of Mary. However, again, this is entirely a product of her position. She was trying to ensure that her daughter, Elizabeth, was going to inherit in front of Mary

I don't believe for one minute that she had Katherine or Mary poisoned, only that she expressed a wish they would both be poisoned, again, an understandable outburst during a time of great pressure for her and, again in my opinion, nothing she could have got away with if Henry didn't allow her to.

After all, it is only when Henry tires of her as a jealous wife and sees the docile and meek Jane Seymour, a good Catholic girl, shoved in his path that the things which attracted him to Anne - her firey temper, her willingness to cross and disobey him etc - are then turned against her.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Anne forced a sick and demoralized young Mary to attend the newborn Princess Elizabeth AS A SERVANT. The girl had already been separated from her mother-whom she would never see alive again- and denied the company of her father(these were Henry VIII's decisions, but he was definitely goaded and encouraged by Anne)

Anne instructed Elizabeth's governess to "beat her(Mary's) head till it was soft as a baked apple", almost her exact words. She hinted that she would like to have seen the girl poisoned, and probably would have had it done herself if she felt the King would not retaliate. She assigned Mary to sleep in servant's quarters.

Mary-a grand-daughter of the great Warrior Queen Isabella-finally had her spirit broken under this terrible abuse and remained psychologically scarred for life. Is it any wonder that she became hard and embittered as an adult?

All this while Anne Boleyn was riding high as Henry VIII's great passion..but she did indeed reap a very bitter harvest.

Karma at it's best.

 

[killer_bee]

My favourite would be Anne Boleyn. Anne is often called the most influential Queen Consort in British History, and not without reasons.
I see her as strong-willed, smart woman. Elizabeth was a good mixture of her father, and mother.

I don't have anything against Catherine of Aragon, and I quite like her. If she were the heir to Isabella I, not Joana, I think we would have another great Queen.

Jane Seymour is probably my least-favourite. She just doesn't have a 'face' for me - pale, uninteresting, always doing what others told her.

Of other wives, I like Anne of Cleves, she'd probably be an excellent wife for some Duke or Prince, but definitely not Henry. There is no straight opinion for Katherine Howard - I pity but don't like her. Catherine Parr is probably my second favourite after Anne Boleyn, even ahead of Catherine of Aragon.

Ditto with that
she was mother of Elizabath I

 

[Iluvbertie]

Anne forced a sick and demoralized young Mary to attend the newborn Princess Elizabeth AS A SERVANT. The girl had already been separated from her mother-whom she would never see alive again- and denied the company of her father(these were Henry VIII's decisions, but he was definitely goaded and encouraged by Anne)

Anne instructed Elizabeth's governess to "beat her(Mary's) head till it was soft as a baked apple", almost her exact words. She hinted that she would like to have seen the girl poisoned, and probably would have had it done herself if she felt the King would not retaliate. She assigned Mary to sleep in servant's quarters.

Mary-a grand-daughter of the great Warrior Queen Isabella-finally had her spirit broken under this terrible abuse and remained psychologically scarred for life. Is it any wonder that she became hard and embittered as an adult?

All this while Anne Boleyn was riding high as Henry VIII's great passion..but she did indeed reap a very bitter harvest.

Karma at it's best.

Can you please give the references for this abuse?

 

[Zonk]

This information as provided in Allison's Weir's book, The Six Wivs of Henry VIII.

P. 271

Mary refused to take the Oath (which acknowledge Henry and Anne's children as heirs). Lady Shelton who was present, shook the girl violently in front of the Earl of Wilshire, who had been sent to administer the oath. "If I were the king," she cried, " I would kick you out of the house! I would make you loser your head!" But Mary stood firm,and when Anne heard what had ahppened, she wrote suggesting Lady Shelton administer 'a good banging' to 'cursed bastard.'

Lady Shelton was Anne's cousin. And of course, the Earl of Wilshire was her father Thomas Bolyen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

This information as provided in Allison's Weir's book, The Six Wivs of Henry VIII.

P. 271

Mary refused to take the Oath (which acknowledge Henry and Anne's children as heirs). Lady Shelton who was present, shook the girl violently in front of the Earl of Wilshire, who had been sent to administer the oath. "If I were the king," she cried, " I would kick you out of the house! I would make you loser your head!" But Mary stood firm,and when Anne heard what had ahppened, she wrote suggesting Lady Shelton administer 'a good banging' to 'cursed bastard.'

Lady Shelton was Anne's cousin. And of course, the Earl of Wilshire was her father Thomas Bolyen.

Does Weir say where she got the information? I am actually looking for the primary source not the secondary ones.

 

[Zonk]

The problem with Weir's bibliography is that she doesn't use footnotes, if that makes sense.

She cites as her sources:

Info on Mary's early life: The Lady Mary by Milton Waldman and Bloody Mary by Carolly Erickson.

In regards to Anne, this is Chapter 10 in the book: she references: Chapuys, Calendar of Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII (it has 21 volumes); The Chronicle of Henry VIII (also known as the Spanish Calendar). State papers of Henry VIII: published under the authority of Her Majesty's Commission (11 volumes). The chapter bibliography says that the Lady Mary's obstinacy is noted from the State Papers.

 

[kbear87]

i think all of henry's wives were interesting in their own ways but i would have to say anne of cleves was probably the smartest. she knew henry's patterns when he didn't get something he wanted. so she went along with him, recieved 3 castles and a big allowance to boot--along with her independence. she led a full life without a man telling her what to do--i think henry later regretted dumping her and they became friends. anne boleyn is probably my all around favorite and she definitely did not get what she deserved! women were just breeders for henry, plain and simple. i can understand why it was so important for him to have a son but he didn't have to be such a bastard to his wives. just think how very different english history would have been if one of his sons from katherine of aragon had lived! "the tudors" is my all-time favorite series ever even tho they changed some of the facts. i think all the actors were superb and i believe natalie dormer was a perfect anne boleyn. jrm was a great henry also although they could have made him a bit fatter at the end. i've about worn out my dvd's. i think season 3 and 4 stuck more to the facts than season 1 and 2. it was still an awesome series

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Welcome to the forums, kbear87. I think Anne of Cleves is an example of one who had her cake and ate it too! She came out ahead, kept her head on her shoulders and gained the friendship of the King and the royal family.

 

[Zonk]

Welcome to the Forums...kbear87!

Anne of Cleves was definitely the smartest of the lot...keep the prestige of being the King Sister, money, her elated position, her HEAD and didn't have to deal with Henry on the regular.

I disagree with Anne somewhat. She was a victim to a point (should have been allowed to marry Harry Percy) but she wasn't nice in general. She definitely didn't deserve to be framed. But I am more upset (if I can be for something that happened over 400 years ago) for the innocent men who died with her because Henry wanted to get rid of her.

 

[kbear87]

this question is a bit off topic but do you think anne of cleves slept with henry after he dumped her? would she have risked having a baby out of wedlock? can you imagine if she had a boy?? henry would have a fit, lol! and thanks for the welcome!
i do agree that anne b was very ambitious but her father basically pimped out her and her sister and they had to obey, right? along with her uncle also..

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I doubt if she slept with Henry because contemporary accounts said he was dismayed at her appearance and probably felt no sexual desire for Anne.

 

[Zonk]

Yes, I don't believe that she slept with Henry although he was supposedly "charmed" by her changes after he married Katharine Howard.

I beleve the Duke of Cleves did try to push for a remarriage after Katharine's death. Lucky for Anne that it was a no go from Henry's side.

 

[sthreats]

I never saw this thread. Very interesting comments. My favorite has always been Catherine of Aragon. I think I first watched the 6 wives of Henry the 8th when I was 9. I was struck by the actress's portrayal of the queen's fidelty and strength. I have read many books about her over the years.

 

[kbear87]

i liked katherine of aragon also but i think her life would have turned out much better if she would just have given henry the divorce or anullment. i know it would have been very difficult for her to swallow her pride but she would have had her choice of castles with a big allowance and been able to see mary. she died in poverty, unable to even visit her only child. maybe she didn't think henry would banish her--that he would change his mind? it's really sad the way she lived her last few years....she surely didn't deserve the treatment she got!

 

[Zonk]

Please note that all posts regarding Mary, daughter of Henry VIII and Catharine of Aragon have been moved to http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f165/queen-mary-i-1516-1558-a-22614-2.html .

 

[kbear87]

Queen Anne Boylen without any hesitation, the most smart, most modern, most educated and attractive one !

i'd say anne b. was the most interesting and my favorite to read about but i don't believe she was the smartest. she should have been more careful about some of the comments she made in public--especially around cromwell. i think she thought she had henry so wrapped around her little finger that she could say or do anything. she was wrong obviously..
she still didn't deserve what she got. how could anyone possibly imagine she was having that many affairs when she was constantly surrounded by her ladies?? queens had no privacy at all so most people had to know those charges were bogus.

 

[mary stuart]

mine is anne bolyen she was a woman ahead of her time i feel personaly she got a raw deal maligined by ambassidor chapuy i respect queen cathrine but she was a poliction and she playd fast and lose with her daughter mary if she acceptted an annulment mary would still have been legitamete case point elenor of aquitaine and louis cant rember his num lol but her daughters where declerd legit so i belive in my point of view cathrine is to blame for her daughters troubles. any way back to anne amost intruiging queenshe did a lot of charity work tried to stop some monasrtys being shut down and i think that lead to her downfull with henry and cromwell ot can someone shink my avater plzzzzzzits not showing

 

[mammacats]

I voted for Anne B. because she seemed to be a woman ahead of her time. And according to a couple of biographies about her, Cromwell cooked up the whole scheme on his own initiative then presented it to Henry, who by then wanted to go on to the next wife in order to get his heir. The intrigue in the palace was so bad that it was either Anne or Cromwell and Cromwell was going to make darn sure he survived.

And the other thing was, the author speculated on the possibility that Anne had the Rh problem in terms of carrying a pregnancy. The first one is fine, then the Rh problem kicks in, and bingo, miscarriages the rest of the way.

The whole Tudor era is just facinating to me. Especially Elizabeth, who turned out to be a better ruler in some ways than her Father.

 

[AnnEliza]

I voted for Anne Boleyn, though I wouldn't really say she is my favorite, just that I have always been fascinated by her and her story since history class in 7th grade! As far as the one I would like the most, probably Anne of Cleves. I feel very badly for Katharine of Aragon, who definitely got a raw deal all the way around.

I think the story shows so much fear and desperation: Henry was desperate to have a son, knowing his claim to the throne was shaky. He was only the second Tudor king, and the Tudor claim was through the female line through John of Gaunt and his mistress/later wife Kathryn, and their children were legitimated retroactively, but their descendants were barred from inheriting the throne, so Henry VII should not, by that rule, have been able to become king. So Henry VIII needed that son (in his opinion) to secure his dynasty and legacy. And Anne saw the opportunity to truly rise to the top and please her social-climbing father and greedy uncle. And then, due to Katharine's popularity and the fear that she (Anne) would never have a son, she was cruel to both Katharine and Mary, perhaps due to the years of frustration waiting to marry Henry, and perhaps also due to her fear that they could displace her again. This is just my opinion, of course, I don't know what their thoughts really were. But I have always loved reading about Anne Boleyn. I have always found her so compelling.

 

[Lenora]

As well I voted for Ann Boleyn,as she was the commoner bride and that the destiny played a bad joke on her,if she gave birth to a son,she would have kept her place .

 

[MRSJ]

As well I voted for Ann Boleyn,as she was the commoner bride and that the destiny played a bad joke on her,if she gave birth to a son,she would have kept her place .

If she hadn't gone after a married man and a crown she would have kept her head-


My fav is Catherine if Aragon bc she was stubborn, proud and held to her valued and beliefs- also Anne of Cleves because she made her own way in a foreign land!

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

If she hadn't gone after a married man and a crown she would have kept her head-

Actually, she didn't go after Henry.. he went after her.

Anne was in love with Henry Percy and wanted to marry him.. but she had caught the king's eye and he was the one doing the pursuing in the beginning.

My vote is still with Katherine Parr..

 

[Zonk]

My favs are Catherine of Aragon and Katharine Parr.

Although I am no particular fan of Anne Boleyn, I would certainly agree that the King was the pursurer. And frankly, if she just slept with him she most likely would have been cast off when he was tired of her. Her bad luck that she was just ambitious and agressive, and frankly, a little pissed off (not that I blame her) that marriage to Harry Percy was denied to her. She definitely didn't treat Catherine of Aragon (and Princess Mary) with any respect and many should argue that received her due. Though I do think the execution was overkill (pardon the pun). She certainly thought he would just divorce her...but you can't have two questionable divorces running around.

I must admit that I used to enjoy reading about Henry VIII, and since I have expanded my reading (and this board as well) while I think he is interesting as a monarch to study, I defintely think he was just a nasty person. And I certainly feel bad for the innocent man who died with Anne so Henry could move on. A really nasty individual IMO.

 

[MRSJ]

Actually, she didn't go after Henry.. he went after her.

I agree he pursued heavily but her holding out for crown instead of just sleeping with him was IMO very manipulative- Ive read books of both verision- she was innocent caught between powerful men and she was the vixen who used her body to gain power so I guess it could go both ways

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I agree he pursued heavily but her holding out for crown instead of just sleeping with him was IMO very manipulative- Ive read books of both verision- she was innocent caught between powerful men and she was the vixen who used her body to gain power so I guess it could go both ways

Whether an innocent or vixen, I guess is in the eye of the beholder