Would the Lux. Princes be allowed to marry a Non-Catholic?

[PreDoc]

I am curious as to why a wife would have to convert, is that written into the constitution or are they somehow required by the Pope?

 

[LIELAC]

I am curious as to why a wife would have to convert, is that written into the constitution or are they somehow required by the Pope?

It's probaly because (my understanding of why people would have to convert) is because both people "need" to be of the same faith in order to get married in the church. Usually you get married in the church of the bride's faith, and it probaly look bad on the Vatican if they have the leader of a catholic country married in a different church. Or it could be like many country the offical religion is what ever religion of the royal family is. Not to mention marriages tend to work better and last longer when the couple have same common fondation as each other.

 

[RussianHistoryBuff]

My Opinion

The Royal Family of the Grand Duchy should be able to marry a non-catholic person. Because of several reasons, but the most prominant reason would be because in every royal house throughout history, the divine right to rule [which includes modification of succession laws] lies with monarchy until they wish to estabolish a parliament. But, because the Grand Duchy has a parliament and a constitution,the Head of the Grand Ducal Family does not rule, and the succession laws become outdated because there is no reigning Royal Family of Luxembourg. But, the "Grand Ducal Family" is good for propiganda, political encouragement, and Nationalism.

 

[alelysafina]

I think that if they did want to marry a non-catholic, she/he would have to convert. Mainly because Luxembourg is about 90% catholic, and from my experience in living in a society where most of the people are catholic, if you're not married by the church you're not considered to be really married, even though you are married by the state and people will constantly ask you when you're gonna make it official. Plus if they wanted to be godparents to their friend/relatives children, and the child was gonna be baptized in the catholic faith, then they wouldn't be able to because they weren't married in the church.

 

[linneatherose]

Yes, I think that alelysafina is correct. If you are a Catholic, the Church expects your bride/groom to be a Catholic. A convert is fine for most people but I don't know if royalty is different. It is a process to convert to Catholicism. It isn't just a baptism- there are many classes, communion, confirmation... it is a lot of work, but worth it to marry your "Prince Charming, right??

 

[soCal girl]

I think that Prince Guillaume will have to marry a Catholic girl or at least a girl who is willing to convert to Catholicism but the other princes and Princess Alexandra might have a little bit more leeway in the matter. I don't think it would be a big problem if the girl was Baptist or Evangelical or Presbytarian and just converted to Catholicism because the underlying matter is pretty much the same. I do think if Guillaume fell in love with a Jewish or Muslim girl, it would pose a bigger problem. It would be a really big jump if they coverted to Catholicism. I do hope that the princes and Princess Alexandra are free to marry anyone they wish.

 

[Cascadia]

I know princess mary changed her religion for her husband and her royal as crown princess of denmark

Princess Mary did become a Luthern, but changing from one protestant domination to another is not really converting as most of the differences in the protestant dominations are generally just the way the service is conducted or the governmental form of the church. In Mary's case, though, the Luthern church is the only prostestant church I know of that believes in "transubstantiation". Being raised Presbyterian myself, I couldn't convert to the Luthern faith & say that I believe in that concept. So, I guess each person has to decide if they can change a VERY basic tenant of non-belief or belief in transubstantiation. Changing to Methodist, Congretationalist, Baptist, Episcolpalian, or Baptist wouldn't mean changing any of the general protestant beliefs. Actually, the Luthern church is the closest protestant church to the Catholic church because of their belief in transubstantiation.
If I had to make the choice Mary did, I don't know what I would have done because I can't accept transubstantion; and, I don't believe it is right to join church and say you accept their beliefs if you don't. One can only assume that Mary was able to reconcile it with her conscience, or she decided she did believe in the concept of transubstantiaton. In almost every Presbyterian church I have ever seen, usually on the communian table are the words "In Remembrance of Me". Actually, I wondered about Mary's thought process when she joined the Luthern church; but, of course, I'll never know.

 

[Alexandria]

What does "transubstantiaton" mean?

 

[grim_lady]

What does "transubstantiaton" mean?

I had to look this one up too. Here is the site that told me all about it.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

I think whomever the Princes decide to marry would probably be expected to convert to Catholicism if they weren't already Catholic. But how serious would the conversion be? Would they become zealous converts like the princesses who married the heirs to the throne of Russia? Or would they merely go throught the motions? I'm Lutheran (and have religous beliefs that extend beyond the boundries of the faith) and have several issues with Catholicism. I think if marrying the man I loved depended on me converting to his religion, I could go through the motions of the new religion, but my core beliefs wouldn't change.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think whomever the Princes decide to marry would probably be expected to convert to Catholicism if they weren't already Catholic. But how serious would the conversion be? Would they become zealous converts like the princesses who married the heirs to the throne of Russia? Or would they merely go throught the motions? I'm Lutheran (and have religous beliefs that extend beyond the boundries of the faith) and have several issues with Catholicism. I think if marrying the man I loved depended on me converting to his religion, I could go through the motions of the new religion, but my core beliefs wouldn't change.

In today's churches I believe is a lot of understanding for people who can't really believe in all the details this faith requires. A conversion due to an old law for Royal marriages surely is seen with a lot of understanding and helf, for the person converting shows that she puts the interests of the Royal family, the monarchy and this church above her own personal faith. Thus I guess the priest won't be too harsh on the respective bride and even accept a reconversion in secret after the wedding.

Religion is, after all, a thing between you and the Lord.

 

[avrilo]

Well I´m a catholic, I went to a catholic school since kinder to prep school and to a catholic university. This is why I post here, cause I know a bit how it works

For us catholics it is possible to marry with a non catholic, as long as the ceremony is a catholic one. The teological aspect of it is a bit complex and if someone wants to know, you can PM.

The problem is that a man and a woman not married in a catholic ceremony, are living in sin and their children would be bastards to the eyes of the catholic people, no matter if they went to court house and have a paper. Also divorce doesnt exist in catholic church. Annulments are allowed but under scandalous terms, like you hubby turns out to be homosexual or have a contagious deadly disease and never told you about it.

As catholic, for marry a non catholic; you have to have a permision of the church and swear that you will raise your children into the catholic faith. And of course convince your fiancee to accept having a catholic ceremony.

What I dont know is their protocol and law.

In today's churches I believe is a lot of understanding for people who can't really believe in all the details this faith requires. A conversion due to an old law for Royal marriages surely is seen with a lot of understanding and helf, for the person converting shows that she puts the interests of the Royal family, the monarchy and this church above her own personal faith. Thus I guess the priest won't be too harsh on the respective bride and even accept a reconversion in secret after the wedding.

Religion is, after all, a thing between you and the Lord.

I disagree with this opinion. Faith is what is between you and the Lord. Talking about catholics; once you are a catholic, you are pretty much it, you cant stop being one, because you have to be bapthized to enter the catholic church. The catholics that convert into other churches, never really stop being catholics and can come back whenever they want to. I find it really low use a church like that just because you are marrying into a royal family.

So back to the princes, it is possible for them to marry a non catholic girl, so ther is hope for all of you! YAY! as long as you agree to what I said above. At least on the religous POV

 

[foiegrass]

I think that they should be able to marry non-catholics BUT they will most probably have to renouce their rights to the throne like the british act of settlement 1771

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Well I´m a catholic, I went to a catholic school since kinder to prep school and to a catholic university. This is why I post here, cause I know a bit how it works

For us catholics it is possible to marry with a non catholic, as long as the ceremony is a catholic one. The teological aspect of it is a bit complex and if someone wants to know, you can PM.

The problem is that a man and a woman not married in a catholic ceremony, are living in sin and their children would be bastards to the eyes of the catholic people, no matter if they went to court house and have a paper. Also divorce doesnt exist in catholic church. Annulments are allowed but under scandalous terms, like you hubby turns out to be homosexual or have a contagious deadly disease and never told you about it.

That's not entirely true. My catholic mother and my protestant father weren't married in a catholic ceremony but as my father agreed to our catholic upbringing, it was okay with my mother's priest and my mother's family which includes some priests, two monks and a nun. There are a lot of annulment reasons which are accepted that have nothing to do with diseases or sexuality, it's enough eg that one partner in a childless marriage states that he married on knowing he never wants to have children, thus the marriage is not valid. There is the sacrament of marriage and if one partner enters the marriage without agreeing to this sacrament, the marriage can be annulled. It's often done if one partner works for the church and wants to continue doing that after a divorce. At least here in Germany, annulments are not so difficult to get.

As catholic, for marry a non catholic; you have to have a permision of the church and swear that you will raise your children into the catholic faith. And of course convince your fiancee to accept having a catholic ceremony disagree with this opinion. Faith is what is between you and the Lord. Talking about catholics; once you are a catholic, you are pretty much it, you cant stop being one, because you have to be bapthized to enter the catholic church. The catholics that convert into other churches, never really stop being catholics and can come back whenever they want to. I find it really low use a church like that just because you are marrying into a royal family.

So back to the princes, it is possible for them to marry a non catholic girl, so ther is hope for all of you! YAY! as long as you agree to what I said above. At least on the religous POV

As I said, it is possible to be married but not in a catholic ceremony and even be employed by the church.

As for leaving the church: the new pope Benedikt is known to have said that he prefers it if people who have doubts leave the church instead of trying to change it from the inside. He said that from the point of view of the minister who cares for the soul of his lambs it is entirely possible to see that the people who leave the church for whatever reasons can still be good people who are loved by God.

Here in Germany we have a lot of people who leave the church because they are forced to pay taxes by the state who are then given to the church. While the bishops say that these people cease to be catholics and have not right any longer to partake on the sacraments or mass, the pope explicitely told the bishops to give them the sacraments and allow them to communication if they wanted to do that. So I understand that as if he really is convinced that it's a personal thing between you and God.

As for converting brides who did that for their marriage: that's a very old tradition and you can find private chapels in some palaces where members of the family reconverted secretly after a time and were attended by the priest of their choice while officially nothing was said about the topic at all.

Eg Sweden: both queen Desideria and queen Josefina attended the protestant service in public while having a private catholic chapel in the palace. IIRC Catholic princess Elisabeth Luise of Bavaria only converted to protestant faith more than 10 years after her marriage to the Crown prince of Prussia and it's an open secret that she kept close contact with her former confessor, so it's not clear if she really converted or not. She even travelled with her mentally ill husband to Rome after his brother Wilhelm had taken over the regency and was received by the pope so some historians claim that she reconverted and her husband converted with her.

It may be that it happened more often in Germany, where since the reformation faith was more a political topic then a religious and thus a tolerance existed. But it's not a new thing that women converted in order to make dynastic marriages and IMHO it is pretty normal that some of them secretly returned to the faith of their youth if they could do so without endangering their family or realm.

 

[lisamaria]

I think that they should be able to marry non-catholics BUT they will most probably have to renouce their rights to the throne like the british act of settlement 1771

I'm really playing by the ear here, but I think in Luxembourg the church is separated from the state (it is in most Catholic countries; its effect on state politics comes through differently), and the religion of Guillaume's wife would thus have no stately meaning. After all, when Henri ascended to throne, he swore his oath before the parliament, and not in church. There was no mention of God anywhere. But they present themselves a religious, church-respecting people, so if the girl refused to convert Guillaume just might have to draw his own conclusions.

Unfortunately, I think it would rather be goodbye girl than goodbye crown

I find this rather interesting discussion as I aspire to become a priest myself. If the girl was a religious type, and her faith had a deeper meaning to her, surely she would be better off staying faithfull to her values and principles than giving them up for a cute guy?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I find this rather interesting discussion as I aspire to become a priest myself. If the girl was a religious type, and her faith had a deeper meaning to her, surely she would be better off staying faithfull to her values and principles than giving them up for a cute guy?

I guess it really is a very individual thing. If she could not accept to change her faith but his position required it it would be his job to think about the priorities in his life. CP Mary stated in her pre-wedding interviews that she and Frederick had talked about a situation where his mother would not accept Mary and that they had thought about him giving up his right. Which did not happen and which Mary would not have wanted in any case but the problem obviously was there and they thought about a solution both could live with.

I guess in case of religion it would be the same: the problem is there, both find their own point of view and then have to see if it can work out or not. But it's a very individual problem and not one we would get to know in case they decided to seperate, I'M sure. Maybe this was the problem with prince Joachim of Denmark and Mary Cavallier? We'll probably never know....

 

[avrilo]

Of course Jo t[SIZE=-1]here are ot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]her reasons for annulment ot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]her t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]han sexual[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].

I posted w[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat I know after 25 years of bein a cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic of cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic family in a cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic country. Stuff like t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]his can variate accordin[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] to t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]he bis[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hop or diocesis. If you say your family did it, it is ok. I [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]have no reason to doubt you.

My[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] idea [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]here was to s[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]how, t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat as cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holics t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]he princes can marry a non-cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic; [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]however, I dunno w[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat is required by t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]heir country. I t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hink forcin someone to convert to enter a family is too muc[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]h[/SIZE]

 

[HRHAmy]

Religion is so personal, and frankly I would be suscpicious of someone who is willing to convert just to marry. For me it would be like giving-up a part of my identity.

But don't you have a give up a part of yourself to marry a Prince anyway? You have to give up your freedom, move to a new country, learn the language, and learn their customs. You can't live like you normally would anymore, to a certain extent. I believe like a prenup, that if you convert that means you really do love someone and it shouldn't be a problem. And I know some people do take their religion very seriously, but this is just my opinion.

 

[Mathilde1286]

But don't you have a give up a part of yourself to marry a Prince anyway? You have to give up your freedom, move to a new country, learn the language, and learn their customs. You can't live like you normally would anymore, to a certain extent. I believe like a prenup, that if you convert that means you really do love someone and it shouldn't be a problem. And I know some people do take their religion very seriously, but this is just my opinion.

I think that opinion is all up to the girl he'll marry. You can look at it as giving up a lot of things, but 'she' may look at it quite differently. Also, if religion isn't that big of an aspect in her life, maybe she won't mind converting, if she doesn covert.

 

[Next Star]

My opinion is that the princes will pick a suitable and compionable brides for their wives we truly don't know if they will marry fellow Catholics or Non-Catholics and if they do marry a Non-Catholic it is up to her if wants to convert. Only time will time who the Princes Of Luxembourg will marry.

 

[Nitefeatherz]

Of course Jo t[SIZE=-1]here are ot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]her reasons for annulment ot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]her t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]han sexual[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].

I posted w[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat I know after 25 years of bein a cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic of cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic family in a cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic country. Stuff like t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]his can variate accordin[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] to t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]he bis[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hop or diocesis. If you say your family did it, it is ok. I [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]have no reason to doubt you.

My[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] idea [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]here was to s[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]how, t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat as cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holics t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]he princes can marry a non-cat[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]holic; [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]however, I dunno w[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hat is required by t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]heir country. I t[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hink forcin someone to convert to enter a family is too muc[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]h[/SIZE]

I don't think they'd be forcing her to convert-if it was a matter of forcing her to convert, I know I would refuse if it were a matter of force...

on the other hand, I have not been a practicing lutheran for many years now because I disagreed with the teachings as I learned them, so if I was brought into contact with teachings such as the Catholic Church, that I agreed with, I probably would convert. If it meant marrying a man I loved as well-then that's a bonus.

I have women in my family who converted in order to be the same religion as their husband- I don't disagree with it as it is a very personal decision that is not going to be the same for any two people.

 

[cosette minette]

I know that before people were asking what transubstantiation is, and It is when wine and bread are turned into the sacred body and blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[MissSimone]

Wouldn't bother me, I'm not religious. And besides, what's the point of living if you can't love and be married to the person you're madly in love with. Though I do believe converting for the sake of marriage isn't exactly smart. I mean it's your faith, I think that parliament and all the other people are ridiculous in their beliefs that the boys must marry a catholic. How would they feel if they were told they couldn't marry the person that they loved with all of their heart just because their religion was different. Personally, if I were religious and I was told i couldn't marry the guy I loved because we had different religions I'd be utterly pissed off. But that's just me.

Well-said! I think that for the Hereditary Grand Duke Prince Guillaume (Forgive me if I mess up his title) would probably have to marry a Catholic UNLESS for some miraculous reason the people of Luxembourg and his family fell in love with this girl. I don't think there are any laws concering this like England, though. But for Prince Felix and Sebastien...I think they will be a little bit more lenient because they aren't the ones who are going to be running a country. But yeah I'm Protestant but I don't go by labels...I just go by my relationship with Christ ^_^. But that would be awful if I couldn't marry the man I love...why go on living?

 

[Ducii]

I think they can marry anyone or not?? Is Tessy catholic??

 

[MAfan]

I think they can marry anyone or not?? Is Tessy catholic??

I think so...She and Louis married in a catholic cerimony, so I think she also is Catholic

 

[Ducii]

In our coutry it is possible to have a catholic ceremony if only one is Catholic, so I'm not sure, but she can be also catholic.

 

[cosette minette]

I think that if they marry a non Catholic they are no longer in the line of succession to the Grand Ducal throne of Luxembourg.

 

[Nitefeatherz]

I think that if they marry a non Catholic they are no longer in the line of succession to the Grand Ducal throne of Luxembourg.

But it seems to me that marrying a non-catholic would be okay as long as the children were catholic (as my lutheran uncle's marriage was- he married a catholic woman, the catholic church decreed the children had to be catholic, and everyone was ok with it.)

There's always the chance that the fiancé would convert- I think I might if the love were strong enough and I was sure enough about the relationship. Granted, though, I haven't been to church for anything but weddings and funerals for over ten years...

 

[Tilda1234]

I think, they just will follow the tradition and marry an catholic girl. Also in Liechtenstein and in Belgium, where the royal house and the majority of the population is tradtionally catholic, all the princes/princess married a catholic person. (E.g. Mathilde, Claire, Lorenz d'Austria, Sophie of Bavaria were catholic). If the partner is from a different faith, the house will ask him/her to convert. But i don't think anybody is loosing his/her right of succession, because some of the dukes were protestants, e.g. William IV, Adolphe (For the law of sucession see also here: Line of succession to the throne of Luxembourg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
IMO they can marry everybody they like. It is very old fashioned for me to force brides to change faith or cease to be in the succession, when marrying the "wrong" faith. Most countries do not have state churches, so there is no legal or politcal reason to stick to this usage. In modern, multicultural societies it is not very reasonable to believe that the duke has to be catholic as x% of the society are catholic.


Just an add to the topic Princess Mary changed faith/transubstantiation on page 5. :
"Luther explicitly rejected transubstantiation, believing that the bread and wine remained fully bread and fully wine while also being fully the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Luther instead emphasized the sacramental union (not exactly the consubstantiation, as it is often claimed). Lutherans believe that within the Eucharistic celebration the body and blood of Jesus Christ are objectively present "in, with, and under the forms" of bread and wine (cf. Book of Concord). They place great stress on Jesus' instructions to "take and eat", and "take and drink", holding that this is the proper, divinely ordained use of the sacrament, and, while giving it due reverence, scrupulously avoid any actions that might indicate or lead to superstition or unworthy fear of the sacrament." (from: Transubstantiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Beside this part of lutheranism, i don't see a hugh difference to calvinism (and Mary was a member of the church of scotland and so being calvinst). In Germany about 1/3 of the population are protestants ("Evangelisch" in German). And 1/3 of the protestants are calvinists. Lutherans and calvinists mostly use the same churches, priests...I think here most people could not even tell if they are luterans or calvinists, they just would say "evangelisch".

 

[firelight]

The question is not just one of non-Catholicism, but a question of the exact religion of the non-Catholic partner.

For instance, where I come from, a non-Muslim who wants to marry a Muslim MUST convert, otherwise you can't even get married legally. The children are also automatically Muslim. I believe this compulsory conversion on the part of the non-muslim spouse is not applicable in most other countries but it does appear to be the usual practice worldwide. So if Guillaume or one of his siblings married a Muslim, the issue of who converts will be a major one! There is a very real possibility the Muslim partner here would not be willing to accept a non-Muslim spouse.

It's very unlikely the hypothetical Muslim spouse could become Catholic either. For a Muslim to leave the religion means to commit the crime of apostasy. Very very serious and in some countries it's punishable by death. A high profile Muslim converting to another religion / even getting married in a church (without converting) could face serious death threats, it's been known to happen before. Furthermore, there is a lot of Islamophobia in the west so I think it may be almost impossible for the Lux. children, Guillaume especially, to marry a Muslim. Even if marriage took place, the religion of the offspring would be a major issue, personally and politically.

For a hypothetical spouse of certain other religions, things may be slightly easier. Hinduism and Buddhism, e.g., tend to be generally very accepting of other religions. Therefore a Hindu / Buddhist is more likely able and willing to convert / marry in a Church / raise the children as Catholics. There is also no question of the spouse of such a person having to convert into Hinduism or Buddhism, it's completely unnecessary, most people would never even think to ask. However, I don't know how accepting people in Luxembourg would be of a Hindu / Buddhist princess, church wedding or no church wedding. The current pope himself made that infamous comment about Buddhism being a form of spiritually self-indulgent eroticism.

And we haven't gotten to other religions, e.g. Wicca or a practitioner of other Earth-based religions (e.g. natural witchcraft, pagan, eclectic witchcraft). Can you imagine any of the Lux royals being married to a practising witch?

In this context, even a die-hard Protestant will seem like a saint!