Tsar Nicholas II (1868-1918) and Empress Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix) (1872-1918)

[Pixilated]

^ Really? your mama must be very lovely, the Tsarina was beautiful as a young woman.

 

[Daria_S]

Alix is not my favorite royal, but I do have respect for her. She was loyal to her new nation and faith, and I think to some extent she was more Russian than most of those who were born there.

Her love of the Orthodox faith was interesting to read about, since before her engagement to Nikolai she was against any kind of conversion. However, as soon as she got engaged, she was upset that she couldn't yet celebrate Easter with her new fiance (I read that in a book called 'A Lifelong Passion: Nicholas and Alexandra in Their Own Words').

I think as a mother, she was simply over-protective, and I think she did a great dis-service to her children by not allowing them to have any friends outside of the immediate family circle.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

I think she was (jusifiably) frightened of all the things that could befall her children, but perhaps not able to think of ways of dealing with that fear. I'm not sure that any course of action would have resulted in a different fate. That's why she looks so sad in her pictures, it was a terrible love affair to be having, they were so conscious of the hope of modernity and their own love.

But they were cut down by forces completely beyond their control.

 

[IloveCP]

Was Empress Alix really a snob?Ive read that she was like that and in the movies.

 

[Katrianna]

I don't think Alexandra was a snob as much as she was reserved and shy as has been stated. Many times persons who of this personality are perceived as snobbish.

 

[IloveCP]

I could understand that,its something we have in common.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

No, I don't think Alexandra was a snob. In fact, it seems that she preferred the company of people from the lower ranks she encountered as opposed to the royals in her family and in court functions.

But she was imperious. She made her maids keep details about her many pieces of lace, would fling off her rings anywhere when she felt like playing the piano, then send the help scurrying to look for them, and left her written correspondence lying about until they could be gathered, put together and then mailed off.

 

[Russophile]

She didn't like the gossip at court. Whereas Minnie (and Russo ) loved a good gossip fest. And that rather alienated her from the court.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

She didn't like the gossip at court. Whereas Minnie (and Russo ) loved a good gossip fest. And that rather alienated her from the court.

Russo, my dear,

I think Gossip is such a tacky term. I much prefer news of an important social nature.

 

[Katrianna]

I read an interesting book review on the latest book about Rasputin. In it, the author has written, that some rumors about the relationship between Alexandra were actually started and spread by her mother-in-law, the Dowager Empress. (Royalty Digest Quarterly, Vol. 3 2010).
To have such a relationship with Minnie had to have been a nightmare for Alexandra.

 

[lucien]

I read an interesting book review on the latest book about Rasputin. In it, the author has written, that some rumors about the relationship between Alexandra were actually started and spread by her mother-in-law, the Dowager Empress. (Royalty Digest Quarterly, Vol. 3 2010).
To have such a relationship with Minnie had to have been a nightmare for Alexandra.

Minnie was such a tricky old bat,she really was.Far from the once joyfull poor Danish Princess she was.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Minnie was such a tricky old bat,she really was.Far from the once joyfull poor Danish Princess she was.

If Marie deliberately spread rumors, that is awful! I recall reading that her mother begged Dagmar (Empress Marie) to get along better with Alexandra and not make the mistake that Marie's mother had made with her eldest son's wife. It seems the Queen of Denmark knew that a poisoned or bad relationship with a daughter-in-law was not a happy situation.

 

[EmpressRouge]

If Marie deliberately spread rumors, that is awful! I recall reading that her mother begged Dagmar (Empress Marie) to get along better with Alexandra and not make the mistake that Marie's mother had made with her eldest son's wife. It seems the Queen of Denmark knew that a poisoned or bad relationship with a daughter-in-law was not a happy situation.

I wonder how Queen Alexandra's relationship with Queen Mary compared to her sister's with Empress Alexandra. I figured Queen Alexandra's deafness probably would have prevent any major impasse that could have arisen with Mary.

 

[Katrianna]

Not to get too much off topic, but I think there were many times Mary's patience was tested by Queen Alexandra, when she was Princess of Wales and then Queen.

 

[IloveCP]

What is the exact reason he was forced off the throne?Because had a german wife?He was a bad ruler?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

What is the exact reason he was forced off the throne?Because had a german wife?He was a bad ruler?

There is not just "one" reason why the Tsar abdicated under pressure. He was a good man but he was also a bad ruler who was out of touch with his subjects. Nicholas' consort was disliked in part because she was German from birth but also because she was viewed as aloof and imperious. Alexandra also allowed Rasputin to interfere in governmental matters which caused the aristocracy to abandon its support of the royal family. World War I certainly caused a lot of distress and financially the country was ruined, which made Nicholas, as Tsar, extremely unpopular. There were many reasons . . .

 

[Katrianna]

Agreed. Nicholas was a poor leader and basically lived in an entirely different world from the Russian people although, he's not alone in that category. Russia is and was an enormous country with different cultures, religions and even 11 time zones! It was a huge undertaking for any Tsar to rule and usually the most successful were the most ruthless.
The people of Russia were also poor, uneducated and backward especially outside of the major cities. The event that started the downward slide for Nicholas was the 1905 massacre of protesters by the secret police and military on the Tsar's orders. It was a peaceful demonstration for reform which included clergy and turned into a bloodbath. I've read and don't know if it's true, Grand Duke Sergei was killed in a retaliation for the massacre and also he was regarded as an absolute tyrant.
WW1 and Russia entered the war with horrendous loss of troops. Nicholas made the mistake of going to the front to lead the troops, leaving Alexandra to remain with Rasputin. The rumors abounded over the Tsarina and Rasputin's relationship and her being a secret German spy. The rumors went on about Alexandra and Rasputin running the country.
Socialist groups and ordinary citizens were circulating the rumors as well as obscene jokes and graphic posters of the Tsarina and Rasputin.
The Bolsheviks had an easy time of convincing the public about Lenin and his visions.
There was no one thing or event that precipitated the tragedy of the Romanovs, it was a domino effect.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I would be really interested to know why, after so many other German princesses were married into, and presumably accepted by the Imperial family, Alexandra became so vilified, also with whom lies the responsibility for it. Was it just that the poor girl "came to us behind a coffin" that the superstitious Russians never forgave? In which case she never stood much of a chance, did she? Or was it that the whole Tsarist regime had long been seen as flawed and a scapegoat was needed. I would love to know, given the undoubted British influence, via PA and QV, at the Hessian court, just how German did Alexandra feel hersef to be?

 

[EmpressRouge]

Yes, the German states had almost always provided Russia with consorts since Catherine the Great, but by the time Nicholas II married, the political and cultural climate of Russia and the military alliances had change dramatically. By the mid-19th century, Russian culture experienced an revival (after years of looking to Western Europe for culture) and Slavophile ideology became popular. That's when the traditional Russian peasant dress (including the kokoshnik, abet bejeweled) became popular at Court. Thus, Alexander II decided to look for a wife for his heir Nixa outside the German states, which is how Dagmar of Denmark (Minnie) became engaged to Nixa and later married the future Alexander III. Alexander III was also an ardent Slavophile and had made an alliance with France during his reign and hoping Nicholas II would marry a French princess (Helene of Orleans). Also, Minnie hated the German states (okay, maybe really just Prussia) because of their taking away provinces from Denmark.

 

[COUNTESS]

No, Alix was neurotic and plain unpleasant. Minnie, who was Danish and charming put the spotlight on her daughter-in-law's short comings.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I think there was more of a general dislike against Alexandra which intensified after Russia entered into the war against Germany. Many countries were rightfully becoming concerned about Germany's aggressive stance and growth during this period of time, which did not help those princesses which married into royal families opposed to German aggression. However, I don't think the Russians disliked Alexandra because she was German but after growing to dislike her public persona, it became easy to append the country of her birth to any mention of her as an additional slur.

As for her attitude, Alexandra loved the Russian people and was ashamed of her native country's position and attitude towards others which precipitated the war. And with her upbringing at Hesse by Princess Alice before she died and yearly visits to Windsor to see Grandmama, Alexandra was more of a Brit than a true German.

 

[Russophile]

No, Alix was neurotic and plain unpleasant. Minnie, who was Danish and charming put the spotlight on her daughter-in-law's short comings.

This is true.Minnie played the game and cultivated the courts favor and Alexandra never did which was a huge difference between them.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Well now, isn't this fascinating!!! It is generally accepted that when unrest occurs anywhere it always filters down from where the power lies - the top, so when disarray and lack of focus happen within the few members in any boardroom, sooner or later there will discontent in the masses. Imperial Families NOT exempt!!! When I asked who held responsibility for A's being disliked-leaving out A, herself!!! I suspected "the Uncles" all of whom could probably have done a better job than Nicky. However, the respondents to my last post have all named Minnie, albeit, in a last sentence, and it struck me that the damage possible for her to inflict was without limit!!! I suspect the biggest thing for her was the German issue which A could never get round. Leaving aside the undoubted trauma and grief Minnie was experiencing, did she, from the outset, unconsciously-or otherwise-snub A, who at that stage, may have welcomed a warm and loving relationship with her MIL, but we're looking at cause and effect here and perhaps Minnie found it all too easy to say, with a smile, words which would cause an unattractive red flush to stain A's face and neck. Socially adept, it wouldn't have been difficult for M to cause huge public discomfort to this naive, nervy,socially inept girl-even more enjoyable for her if her performance was being watched and such fun to talk about it later. Was M spiteful? She clearly was not prepared to play second fiddle to any younger woman let alone a German one......and how might A have responded to what could be seen as a cleverly veiled drip of venom? I think she might have felt powerless. She could prove nothing, M was loved and protocol was all. We know WHAT she did, we have the books. My own interest lies in WHY and I can't get away from feeling that a more generous Minnie could have, had she chosen, made life easier for and been more supportive of A, gentle encouragement may have erased some of those aspects of her personality that make her difficult to warm to. Did Minnie ever take any responsibility for the lack of closeness in her relationship with Alicky or did she lay the blame solely on Alicky?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I don't think Minnie ever took any responsibility for the lack of a close relationship between her and Alix. Society followed Minnie's lead and if she kept a distance from Alix, then so did society. Of course, if Alix had been smarter, she could have gotten around Minnie somehow but her pride and perhaps crippling anxiety kept Alix on the frine of society, with no protectors and no defenders.

I wish I could remember exactly where I read this but I recall a passage in a book which said that Minnie's mother, the Queen of Denmark, implored Minnie to have a warmer relationship with Alix because the Queen had a bad relationship with her own daughter-in-law and knew first hand how destructive and harmful that was. But it appears that Minnie did not listen to her own mother.

 

[Furienna]

Minnie's unfortunate sister-in-law, who didn't have a good relationship with her mother-in-law, must have been Louise of Sweden, who eventually became queen of Denmark. Yes, poor Louise never was all that popular with her in-laws, only her money was.

It's also interesting to note, that Minnie was able to escape the revolution, but her son and his family weren't. How did that happen? Was it only because she was more popular than her son and (especially) her daughter-in-law were?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Marie was undoubtedly more popular than her son and daughter-in-law but I am not sure that alone insured her safety. Most likely it was geography -- after meeting with Nicholas when he abdicated, I believe Minnie went to Kiev and then from there travelled south to the Crimea. She was placed under a sort of house arrest but was left pretty much alone. However, when things turned really bad for the royalty and aristocracy of Russia, Minnie was at last persuaded by her sister, Queen Alexandra of England, to flee Russia on HMS Marlborough.

 

[Daria_S]

I think Alix was also unpopular due to her association with 'Father' Gregoriy Rasputin. Those of us who are familiar with the history of the last Imperial Family of Russia know that his presence at court was tolerated (and I use that term very loosely) because of Aleksey's illness. Alix was convinced that GR was helping her child, and refused to see reason when advised to get rid of him. Now, the public was not aware of the situation with the heir, and therefore didn't understand why someone like Rasputin, who lived a rather debauched life, would be welcomed at the Imperial Court. Hence, the rumors started and the idea that the Empress was having an affair with this man was taken as fact. I remember reading in Greg King's biography of Alix that Nicky didn't really push the Rasputin issue because he felt it would be better to 'have one Father Gregory than ten fits of hysterics a day'.

Add to all this the fact that Alix was naturally shy and may very well have suffered from social anxiety, and you get a woman who is basically isolated, and not really known at court or outside of the palace. The fact that Empress Maria Feodorovna was keen on putting emphasis on Alix's faults added more fuel to the fire, and I can only guess isolated the younger Empress even more. I think overall, the Rasputin situation along with shyness and a mother-in-law who wasn't supportive added and contributed to the unpopularity of Alix. I do think the whole process was started when she did indeed arrive 'behind the coffin' of Tsar Aleksandr III.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Daria,

Excellent observations. Keeping Alexei's illness from the public was understandable and Nicky did give in to Alix's wish to keep Rasputin near to protect their son. But I think, even if the public knew about all of this, the Romanov dynasty was doomed because of economic, social and political factors: the poverty of the majority of Russians; the inequality between the classes; Alix's interference with government; and the war which exacerbated every other problem and killed millions of good people.

 

[Russophile]

VM I read somewhere, I can't remember if it were the Crawfords book on Michael or another, however they said there might have been a chance to save the monarcy if N & A would have had Alexi on the throne iwth Michael as regent letting the public know of his illness--not specifics, just to cull the publics sympathy. Well all know that was a snowball's chance of happening, however, it is an interesting what if.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo my dear,

I really must get the Crawford book. There are probably many things in that book which I have not read elsewhere. I do recall in Massie's book that there was talk of Alexei being put on the throne but Nicholas would not hear of it because of the boy's illness and because he did not think Alexandra could be parted from her son. It is an interesting "what if" to consider what might have been if Alexei took the throne under a regency.