Title for Camilla

[wbenson]

Oh come on, must everything be Diana's fault even after all of this time?

Nobody's saying it's Diana's fault. They're saying it's the fault of the people who viewed Diana as a perfect saint and Charles as the paragon of evil.

Look, it was going to be an uphill battle when they decided they wanted to marry, constitutionally as well as the man in the street issue.

There wasn't a constitutional hill to climb, though, other than gaining the Queen's permission, which I think she would have given, even if slightly reluctantly (I don't think it was as reluctant as many think, though.) They've made a constitutional hill out of this "Princess Consort" nonsense, though.

 

[Madame Royale]

Thomas Parker Bowles is a Parker from the Earl of Macclesfield-family. It is a very old tradition that if a member of a noble family does special services to the king he is elevated to a rank similar to that of the Head of the family or even beyond that. Just think of Arthur Wellesley...

So why should this old tradition not apply to the step-(and god-) son of the future king?

Personal service? What service could he possibly undertake in all seriousness? That any creation of a peerage would not be because of any service he may povide Charles, but because he is his step son, would be more likely, and I'm sure that if it were to ever happen, a flimsy excuse is what would be given, if any.

Secondly, I wouldn't care to see him elevated in anyway, when it's been my experience of Tom, that the man is a pretentious ignoramus. A shame because his sister is really quite lovely. Probably takes after her mother.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I was under the impression that titles passd through the male line by law, that tiles held by females became extinct upon their death. I know there were several titles that became extinct when there was no male to inherit, with the except being the sovereign.

Cat

It all depends of the special reminders of the Letters Patent. There are peerages that can be inherited through the female line and others who can't. A peer without children or only with daughters may hold several titles and each title is being treated differently. So one might go extinct or pass into another branch of the family and another one might end up with the daughter. If you're interested, look up "Sutherland". That's interesting because a Marquess had married a Countess in her own right and the king created the Marquess a duke with his wife's name. But when the last duke died without children, the dukedom of Sutherland along with the peerage of the marquess went to a very distant relative who is now Duke of Sutherland while the earldom ended up with the late duke's niece, who is now the Countess of Sutherland...

 

[Madame Royale]

Madame Royale, I didn't say that Charles will create him a peer

Jo, I didn't say you did.

 

[LadyCat]

Thank you Jo of Palentine and everyone else for setting me straight on the whole business of titles that are "inherited". You learn something new every day!

Cat

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Cat, there's a nice lady called Laura out there who once, back in the 90ties, collected information of all kinds about titles of the British nobility. She addressed it to the readers and authors of historical novels, especially romances, because it's unbelievable how much errors appear there.

I found the page highly interesting and very informative. As it's good to read either, maybe you like to look around it?

British Titles of Nobility

Have fun!

 

[Warren]

I've copied or moved some of the more informative posts over to The British Nobility Thread.

 

[jcbcode99]

British Titles of Nobility

Jo, Fantastic site! Thank you for the link; it's nice to have something at one's fingertips.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

I place little faith in these so-called public opinion polls, as they usually are not in keeping with actually public opinion for various reasons. Let's face it, the person most likely to respond to an open poll is the person strongly against the subject. Those who are ambivalent or "for" it generally feel no need to voice it, the detractors are not so silent.

Sorry, but... how can you possibly say that public opinion polls don't actually reflect public opinion? Polling is a well-defined practice, and while it's possible to skew results based on how the questions are worded, random polls do actually attract a random sampling of the population. Statistical analysis does the rest.

And I repeat my earlier statement: This whole 'debate' is so much poppycock.

 

[Warren]

We seem to have wandered into that quagmire of discussing the Charles & Camilla relationship and marriage in terms of 'morality'.
Those posts have been moved here.

It would be better if the 'Title for Camilla' thread is kept to the topic of Camilla's future title and the options and technicalities which may be involved.

thanks,
Warren
British Forums moderator

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Camilla's style of "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall" translates as follows:

French: SAR Duchesse de Cornouailles
Spanish: SHR Duquesa de Cornualles
Italian: SHR Duchessa di Cornovaglia
Portuguese: SHR Duquesa da Cornualha
German: IKH Herzogin von Cornwall
Swedish: HKH Hertiginna av Cornwall
Danish: HKH Hertuginde af Cornwall
Dutch: HKH Hertogin van Cornwall

 

[Monika_]

Scooter...

Why do you think they floated the whole 'Princess Consort' title rather than say yes she will be queen?

In an attempt to make it more palatable. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[Skydragon]

Camilla's style of "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall" translates as follows:

Thanks for all the information CasiraghiTrio.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

^

Welsh: Duges Cernyw (no idea how to put HRH into Welsh)

Norwegian: HKH Hertuginnen av Cornwall

 

[iowabelle]

IMO the whole "Princess Consort" idea is rather silly.

Even George IV was unsuccessful in trying to strip his disgraceful wife, Caroline, of the title of Queen (of course, GIV was no great prize either).

Granted the situations aren't entirely analogous (GIV and Caroline hating each other, while the Waleses seem to be getting along) and Charles merely wanting to call his queen by a different title, it is totally against precedent. I think if the woman's married to the king, then queen she ought to be and she ought to be recognized as such.

 

[scooter]

In an attempt to make it more palatable. That's it in a nutshell.

I think you may well be right, Monika. IMO, there is a certain disingenuousness there. If they had come right out and said Yes, by Golly, It's going to be Queen Camilla with all the bells and whistles, they knew there would be more resistance to the marriage. So instead, they said why no, no no, Camilla will be Princess Consort, all the while figuring that Camilla-aversion would decline over the years and when/if Charles inherited, they'd slip the Queen Camilla part in. All of this of course, presupposes that both Charles and Camilla outlive Queen Elizabeth, who may well live another 25 years as her mother did. That would make Charles and Camilla in the 85 year old range, so it may be a moot point. If Charles predeseased Camilla, her title would be HRH Camilla, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, as William would become the new Duke of Cornwall, right?

 

[Skydragon]

IMO the whole "Princess Consort" idea is rather silly.

Even George IV was unsuccessful in trying to strip his disgraceful wife, Caroline, of the title of Queen (of course, GIV was no great prize either).

Granted the situations aren't entirely analogous (GIV and Caroline hating each other, while the Waleses seem to be getting along) and Charles merely wanting to call his queen by a different title, it is totally against precedent. I think if the woman's married to the king, then queen she ought to be and she ought to be recognized as such.

Very well said. I agree with you 100%.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I have a hunch that the "princess consort" idea is only a PR line from Clarence House, who I don't believe ever intend to deny Camilla of the title of Queen Consort. When it comes to the point, she will be Queen Consort and that will be the end of the matter. This is just my opinion though. Maybe I'm wrong but I always felt this way from the day of the marriage.

 

[Skydragon]

If Charles predeseased Camilla, her title would be HRH Camilla, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, as William would become the new Duke of Cornwall, right?

The Duke of Cornwall is always the eldest son of the sovereign, so if Charles predeceases HM, William would not be the Duke of Cornwall.

 

[scooter]

Really? An interesting new thread would be: If Charles predeceases the Queen, and William cannot be Duke of Cornwall , then what does income the heir support himself through? Charles is pretty much funded through the Duchy, I believe. So back on topic...If William is not eligable for Duke of Cornwall, strike the 'Dowager bit'...HRH Camilla Duchess of Cornwall, if Charles pre-deseaces Camilla while Queen Elizabeth is still alive.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I can't believe we're up to Part 3 already. I for sure thought this would 6 at the least.


Anywho, she will be Queen and that's that. As has been pointed out many times already, whether Diana died or not, she wasn't going to be Queen. She had been divorced for what, 4 years when she passed? BeatrixFan put it perfectly; the job of Queen Consort was left vacant when they divorced. Whomever Charles married after that would assume that position when the time came. That person is Camilla. People who viruently hate her or people who think the title of Queen belongs to the ghost of a former spouse need to just re-awaken from Dreamland and join the rest of us here on Earth.

 

[MARG]

So, let me see if I have this right. If Chales suceeds his mother Camilla will be Queen and, if he predeceases her she will remain Duchess of Cornwall etc. and William will not be Prince of Wales?

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

So, let me see if I have this right. If Chales suceeds his mother Camilla will be Queen and, if he predeceases her she will remain Duchess of Cornwall etc. and William will not be Prince of Wales?

Yes. PoW and DoC are titles reserved for the eldest son of the Sovereign. That could easily change, of course; if Charles bites it tomorrow, there's nothing but convention stopping the Queen from creating Wills Duke of Cornwall, in which case Camilla would become HRH Camilla, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall. (One retains one's HRH after the death of a spouse).

Point being, there's no law against HM creating William DoC. Should Charles predecease his mother, it would only make sense for him to have his own independent source of income. He has his inheritances, of course, and one can easily imagine that his inheritance from Charles would be substantial (of course, given their position, I'm sure the BRF has everyone's wills worked out in every possible permutation of who dies first. It would probably be significantly more advantageous for Charles to will everything to his mother if he dies first, as she doesn't pay death duties on the inheritance. HM could then parcel out whatever to whomever), but.. where was I? Right: but Wills obviously can't get a 'normal' job, and his salary from the Royal Navy wouldn't even come close to covering the expenses of a Royal.

 

[Elspeth]

According to the Duchy of Cornwall website, the Duke of Cornwall has to be the eldest surviving son of the monarch:

Who will be the next Duke of Cornwall?
The charter establishing the Duchy ruled that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the monarch - and the Heir to The Throne. When the current Prince of Wales accedes the throne, Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall.


Duchy of Cornwall - FAQ's - The Official Website for the Duchy of Cornwall

I think it's the Prince of Wales title that can be conferred on an heir who isn't the monarch's eldest son; it seems from the above that the Duke of Cornwall title was conferred by charter on the eldest surviving son of the monarch as long as he was also the heir.

If that's the case, I assume Camilla would remain just HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.

According to this information at the Prince of Wales website

The Prince of Wales
The Prince of Wales is a title created for the male heir to the throne. There is no automatic succession to this title, but it is normally passed on when the existing Prince of Wales accedes to the throne. The title becomes merged in the Crown and is renewed only by the Sovereign's pleasure. The Queen created Prince Charles The Prince of Wales on 26th July 1958. The Prince can trace his descent through the Tudors to the original native Princes of Wales, though the title's use for the Heir to the English Throne began with Edward II, who had been created Prince of Wales by his father Edward I in 1301.

The Prince of Wales - Titles

the Queen could create Prince William Prince of Wales if Charles died during her lifetime. Then William's wife would be Princess of Wales but not Duchess of Cornwall.

However, if William becomes King and has a son during Camilla's lifetime, the son would become Duke of Cornwall either at birth or at his father's accession, depending on the timing, and I assume at that point Camilla would become Dowager Duchess.

 

[sirhon11234]

I can't believe we're up to Part 3 already. I for sure thought this would 6 at the least.


Anywho, she will be Queen and that's that. As has been pointed out many times already, whether Diana died or not, she wasn't going to be Queen. She had been divorced for what, 4 years when she passed? BeatrixFan put it perfectly; the job of Queen Consort was left vacant when they divorced. Whomever Charles married after that would assume that position when the time came. That person is Camilla. People who viruently hate her or people who think the title of Queen belongs to the ghost of a former spouse need to just re-awaken from Dreamland and join the rest of us here on Earth.

She was only divorced a year before she died...

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

If Charles kicks the bucket tomorrow William could theoretically be made Prince of Wales & Earl of Chester, but not Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay. The next DoC/R would have to be the eldest son of the next monarch, presumably King William V. And yes, Camilla could continue as HRH Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, but I imagine that a better title might be fashioned for her, a la the case of Princess Alice of Gloucester. It would be a nice gesture for King William to make Camilla a Princess in her own right.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

The charter establishing the Duchy ruled that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the monarch - and the Heir to The Throne. When the current Prince of Wales accedes the throne, Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall.

True. And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.

If Charles kicks the bucket tomorrow William could theoretically be made Prince of Wales & Earl of Chester, but not Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay.

See above.

 

[wbenson]

And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.

At the least, it's reserved to the Queen in Council (as all amendments to Royal Charters are), which means it's essentially a government function. At most, it requires an Act of Parliament since it would alter the succession of a peerage. So it's not as easy as the Queen just doing it.

 

[Elspeth]

True. And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.

Well, given how creative they seem to be getting with titles these days, it's theoretically possible to do all sorts of things. However, as it stands now, William couldn't inherit the Cornwall title if Charles predeceased the Queen, so even if he was married there wouldn't be the problem of two Duchesses of Cornwall, which makes for less potential confusion.

 

[scooter]

She was only divorced a year before she died...

Sirhon, is my memory playing tricks or did she die exactly one year to the day after the divorce?